[shark]

This could easily pi** off many ones, but I think it's interesting.
Opinions? Science?
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/conditioning_is_a_sham

Article by Mark Rippetoe, arguing that strength training for most should take precedence over conditioning

Thanks for the link Nibile

[Stubbs]

In the terms of this article conditioning only seems to mean running; in climbing terms I have considered conditioning to be either lots of climbing volume below maximum difficulty or other non climbing specific exercises (core works, press ups, etc.)

From personal experience I would have to disagree that 'conditioning' is not important:  you can be strong, but if you don't have session fitness (i.e. you can't manage long climbing sessions at or near your limit) you drastically reduce the chance of being able to do a specific project by only being able to have a few good tries per session.  I think this sort of session fitness only comes from doing lots of volume.

Would be interested to hear other people's thoughts.

[Serpico]

I've always understood 'Conditioning' to mean strength training to 'condition' your body ready for the demands of sport specific training, whereas Rippetoe seems to be referring to cardio which everyone knows is log.

[stevej]

This may surprise some of you who think that all people must do conditioning to be fit. And I agree that past a certain point in the development of strength, some Prowler work on a regular basis is beneficial, but remember, we're talking about novices, people with no strength base, and for whom a strength base improves all aspects of performance.

He's talking about unfit, weak people reading lots of training stuff on the internet and following plans to make strong, fit people fitter. No point in making someone toss a medicine ball around for conditioning if they're weak as a kitten.

Parallel to climbing would be to suggest that time is better spent bouldering font 5-6 at your physical limit (naturally along with lots of focus on technique; Rippetoe would never let any beginner get away with bad form) instead of plodding up lots and lots of french 4-5 (or as a more extreme example, lots of VDiff). From that angle the guy has a point that's completely transferable to climbing.

[shark]

He's talking about unfit, weak people reading lots of training stuff on the internet and following plans to make strong, fit people fitter. No point in making someone toss a medicine ball around for conditioning if they're weak as a kitten.

I think he is trying to correct the bias that novices would "naturally" go for light weights and more reps and cardio to get in shape rather than lifting heavy weights which is seen as a niche, less relevant or scary activity.   

[Stubbs]

Parallel to climbing would be to suggest that time is better spent bouldering font 5-6 at your physical limit (naturally along with lots of focus on technique; Rippetoe would never let any beginner get away with bad form) instead of plodding up lots and lots of french 4-5 (or as a more extreme example, lots of VDiff). From that angle the guy has a point that's completely transferable to climbing.

The only problem with this comparison is that it is hard to practice good technique when bouldering at your limit, and novice climbers would get a lot more benefit fro doing large amounts of sub limit volume than they would thrashing away at problems at their limit which would likely lead to injuries in unprepared tendons and pulleys!

Perhaps the difference comes from climbing's reliance on groups of small muscles (forearms, rotator cuff) rather than the large muscle groups utilised in weight lifting.

[Pebblespanker]

novice climbers would get a lot more benefit fro doing large amounts of sub limit volume than they would thrashing away at problems at their limit which would likely lead to injuries in unprepared tendons and pulleys!

  Sage advice.

From painful personal experience of starting again after a long layoff the biggest mistake I made was not enough volume and too much focus on 'can I do what I used to do and what is the hardest I can boulder now?', the result - finger injuries on punter grade problems by spending too much time trying at my limit and not enough knowledge or humility to understand and accept I was crap and weak and needed the time and volume on easier stuff to allow the tendons time to strengthen and thus get a good base level rather than trying  things that were at my limit or obviously to all but me beyond me.

Its all too easy to push too far too soon 

[Muenchener]

The only problem with this comparison is that it is hard to practice good technique when bouldering at your limit, and novice climbers would get a lot more benefit fro doing large amounts of sub limit volume than they would thrashing away at problems at their limit

Yes, but nobody with a clue would seriously suggest continuously trying 1RM lifts as a weight training technique, which would be somewhat analogous to continuously trying boulder problems at one's limit to the exclsuion of all else.  The three to five rep range seems to be the general recommendation for strength training, rather than bodybuilding style "3 x 10" - but three to five reps is still rather a long way from 1 RM.

[Sasquatch]

My read of the article can be summed up as simply:  If you've never done strength training, it would be good to do some as it will generally apply to anything new that you do.  If you've done decent base level strength training, then ignore this.

It all comes back to the principle of specificity (which I had banged into me extensively), which he doesn't argue.  If you want to get better at something, do that thing.  He simply argues that strength transfers better across different activities better than sport specific training will, which makes alot of sense. 

That said, I disagree with his dismissal of cardio.  Much like strength training, if someone has never done solid cardio training, then you can get your body better adapted to it.  He mentions some strength baselines of 1.75x bodyweight squat, a 2x bodyweight deadlift, and a .75x bodyweight press as a good base.  I would argue an equivilent base for cardio would be a sub 20min 5k, a sub 1hr 20 mile ride, and something else for rowing/climbing/arms.  I'd use swimming, but its way too technical.....

I can assure that having done a couple of years of extensive cardio building, my cardio now sticks with me much like he says strength training does. 

As to how this relates to climbing:  see paragraph 2. 

[mark s]

disagree with some of that
i recently did my fireman physical exam.10 weeks ago i was i my strongest ive ever been,but im very glad i had trimmed down and got a lot fitter.
i passed the exam without much trouble.if id done it at my strongest it would have been far harder and would have left me out of breath for a long time

[i.munro]

Yes, but nobody with a clue would seriously suggest continuously trying 1RM lifts as a weight training technique, which would be somewhat analogous to continuously trying boulder problems at one's limit to the exclsuion of all else.  The three to five rep range seems to be the general recommendation for strength training, rather than bodybuilding style "3 x 10" - but three to five reps is still rather a long way from 1 RM.

Surely the equivalent of 1RM training would be doing one move at your limit in isolation.
Trying a boulder problem at one's limit (& failing on say move 3 ) would be more like three reps to failure I guess.

[Sasquatch]

Yes, but nobody with a clue would seriously suggest continuously trying 1RM lifts as a weight training technique, which would be somewhat analogous to continuously trying boulder problems at one's limit to the exclsuion of all else.  The three to five rep range seems to be the general recommendation for strength training, rather than bodybuilding style "3 x 10" - but three to five reps is still rather a long way from 1 RM.

Surely the equivalent of 1RM training would be doing one move at your limit in isolation.
Trying a boulder problem at one's limit (& failing on say move 3 ) would be more like three reps to failure I guess.

A friend of mine and I have been havingthis discussion about the wtd hangs and what would a 10sec hang be equivilant too.  We guessed it was equal to doing about 3-5 reps of an exercise as most movement reps take 2-3 seconds per rep. 

I would guess that most bouldering is at an even higher relative rep count, unless its a true one move wonder.