[Fultonius]

When training high-end endurance how many metres of climbing do you do per session?

Just thinking that I might be over-doing the intensity and lacking mileage as I seem to only get about 120-150m per session, 80% of which will be at moderate to high pump but trying to finish each route/block without "pumping out". Although, to be fair I don't really have the time to get much more mileage in!

Trying to do 2 or 3 days on 1 day off in preparation for a weeks solid sport routing! (over training very unlikely due to lobg enforced climbing g breaks due to work).

[ghisino]

(high end endurance="long" endurance?)



i think it's highly individual.

personally speaking i get to that mileage (120-150 meters) only in relatively high-volume sessions, and it is more likely if i'm working on long endurance with route linkups (climb-get lowered-pull rope-climb again. Routes intensities set so that i should be pumped at the end of the first and climb through the pump on the second).

I have no clue of how many meters i'm climbing if i'm doing the same kind of work on a bouldering wall though.

It works fine for me even if sometimes i'd do even more meters at a lower intensity if i could...
the big problem is time and logistics : i find it really hard to squeeze in many more meters/moves in 2-3 hours without having a belayer who doesn't climb at all or a perfectly empty bouldering wall, both of which are impossible to get.




btw,
note that i've never been a high-volume guy. My average sport day is 6 pitches, when multipitching the "ideal" route lenght should be between 150 and 300 meters, when bouldering i can't say but i'm definitely not climbing for more than half a day.

[Fultonius]

Damn, I hate unclear trianing jargon!

What I meant by "High-End" Ednurance is 75% to 90% pumped. i.e. not so hard I'm pumping out, but I'm definitely getting a good pump on. To manage this at the wall I climb at (10m to 12m routes) we've been either doing laps on routes (i.e climb, lower, re-tie, climb, lower, re-tie, climb) at a grade about 3 full grades below what I want to onsight in the trip (so, Fr6b+/6c) or doing up-down-up on combinations (e.g. 6c to 7a up, down a 6a or 6b and backup a 6b or 6c). Some of these result in failure on the second "up" and others I just make before pumping out.

This sound like a good plan?

[ghisino]

duh, i'd say it depends on what kind of routes you're interested in, how much you plan to climb each day, and how far from the trip you are.


what you are doing seems what the french call continuité, maybe best translated as stamina.
i'd say good plan if you plan onsighting longer un-cruxy lines and your trip is no more than 6 weeks far away, otherwise you're maybe pushing it a bit too hard intensity-wise (i wouldn't like to be close to failure on each 3-lap series. Not until the end of the session)


also, how long you are resting between each series of 3 laps or up7/down/up will play a role...you could be resting 5 minutes and start the next series while still being a bit tired (making it even more of a mileage thing), or rest 20 minutes and make each series all-out...

[Fultonius]

Ok, a bit more info:

I have the rest of this week free for training, then I'm away for 17 days with work, 12 hour days, no days off and only a basic gym. I'll then have 10 more days before heading away to el chorro for a week.

I'd like to be onsighting F7a/+s and ultimately a F7b, but, and it's a big BUT, I've not really been doing much sport climbing since about June and even then it was a redpoint seige of one route!

My bouldering is pretty OK just now, so failure on tricky cruxes will more likely be due to poor route-reading/footwork than power, but there's fuck all I can do about that between now and October with no access to decent onsightable outdoor routes.

I think I really want to be "pretty fit" for going away so I can manage a full week of just getting out trying stuff without the inevitable slow decline during the week.

P.S. resting about 5 minutes or so between attempts - definitely not "fully rested" between attempts.

[Muenchener]

i find it really hard to squeeze in many more meters/moves in 2-3 hours without having a belayer who doesn't climb at all or a perfectly empty bouldering wall, both of which are impossible to get.

I agree - it's simply logistically difficult to do more in a normal wall session unless you have tremendous stamina and are willing to hang out there all day.

Last summer I was going to the wall regularly with a partner who mostly didn't lead, just toproped the lines I did, and I had a ring pulley injury and was aiming at volume on moderate routes. I was getting in about fifteen 12-to-15 metre wall routes in a session.  Trying harder stuff and/or climbing with a partner who also leads, I find it hard to get more then ten routes in.

It's very different from swapping leads on multipitch where you're climbing 80 to 100 metres at a time with a couple of minutes break at the stance. But then the climbing tends to be less continuous than indoor wall routes, at least at the grades I'm capable of. Though not always. I did a route a couple of weeks ago with two straightforward but long and steep crack pitches, seconded the first one then immediately led the second one. Boy was I tired. Not pumped in the forearms so much, just whole body all over knackered such that stepping up on the next foothold was an effort.

[SA Chris]

I wouldn't stress too much Ali, it will tip down all week and you will end up stuck in the bar drinking cheap cerverzas.

[Fultonius]

You're such an inspiration to me Chris, always there with a helpful word. 

Time to get training 

[SA Chris]

I try.

[ghisino]

well, given the schedule just get as trashed as you can before you leave with work
just stay off of dangerous holds/moves, be overcareful and chosse the most finger-friencdly routes at their grades.


for the last 10 days if it was me, i'd do :

day 10
not so hard session focused on getting my groove back more than anything else. Starting quite easy in the grades and increasing them as long as i'm climbing decently and i don't get a monster pump. Practice every kind of tricky/uneasy clip (clipping 2 draws in a row, draws really far to the side, crossover clipping, long and unstable extenders). Maybe some practice falls. Stop tired, but not exhausted.
day 8
Hard session. Taking a 3-lap set as a "repeat" : warmup, 4 to 6 repeats at the highest possible intensity with really long rests (15-20'). It should really be all-out, ideally falling out of pump halfway on the 3rd route. Two or three one-minute deadhangs with 2' rests, possibly done as "frenchies" pullups. Finish tired, but not totally trashed.
day 5
Short-intense session. 1lap=1rep. Warmup, 2 to 5 reps close to my limit, ideally o/s of new routes at the wall  (if not, old routes climbed @ o/s realistic pace)  10-15' rests. Finish whenever I start to get a performance decrease.
day 3
Easy session. 3laps=1 rep. warmup, 3 reps at 80% intensity (the hardest i'm sure and confident to climb to the top with nearly flawless technique and pacing). 15-20' rests. Best if they are "old" routes, but focusing on a realistic o/s pace (shake&chalk @ every decent hold, slow and smooth).   
day 1
warmup, very few medium intensity boulders, 5 to 10 attempts on 3-move boulders at the highest possible intensity, 2' rests. Stop when i feel i've found my groove for hard individual moves, well before getting tired.
OR
hangboard. warmup, 10 3" hangs per side, cover the range of expected grips, adjust the grips aand load/assistance so that a 6" hang would be maximal. 1' rests.  Rest 5' at the end of the set.
find 3 "medium" pair of grips, and do 4 max-speed pullups on each one (ideally double-dynoing to touch the highest possible point with both hands). 5' rest between each pullup set.
One one-armer per side (with minimum assistance or maximum overload. Minimum assistance in my case  )


(i'm more or less @ your level. Maybe a bit harder depending on how el chorro is graded compared to my references)

[Rocksteady]

i find it really hard to squeeze in many more meters/moves in 2-3 hours without having a belayer who doesn't climb at all or a perfectly empty bouldering wall, both of which are impossible to get.

I agree - it's simply logistically difficult to do more in a normal wall session unless you have tremendous stamina and are willing to hang out there all day.

Last summer I was going to the wall regularly with a partner who mostly didn't lead, just toproped the lines I did, and I had a ring pulley injury and was aiming at volume on moderate routes. I was getting in about fifteen 12-to-15 metre wall routes in a session.  Trying harder stuff and/or climbing with a partner who also leads, I find it hard to get more then ten routes in.

There are a few workouts at the wall where I can get quite a lot of mileage in terms of hand moves/metres climbed in an efficient timeframe.

(1) 4x4 at the wall. Can be done in about 2-3 hours. My '4x4' involves 4 routes, 4 times each, so 16 x 12ishm = 192m. Decent rest between each 'set' of 4 (takes some time for partner to do set of 4), no rest between reps or laps within set. No dogging - if you fall, you get lowered.

(2) 'Double-dip' - basically just doing every route on a wall session twice, with no rest between (i.e. pull rope and go again). This works well in a shorter session with a partner also leading the routes. Typically in 2 hours I get about 12 x 12ishm routes done at the wall.

(3) Boulder volume - this is better when the wall isn't crowded. I do this with the idea of gaining 'aerobic capacity' - 30 mins of easy boulder problems, only rest is walking between them, 3 x 30min sets, 10-15 mins in between sets. When I've tried this I've got absolutely loads done, say 20 problems each set, 3-4m per problem. 180ish m?

[Fultonius]

for the last 10 days if it was me, i'd do :

day 10
not so hard session focused on getting my groove back more than anything else. Starting quite easy in the grades and increasing them as long as i'm climbing decently and i don't get a monster pump. Practice every kind of tricky/uneasy clip (clipping 2 draws in a row, draws really far to the side, crossover clipping, long and unstable extenders). Maybe some practice falls. Stop tired, but not exhausted.
day 8
Hard session. Taking a 3-lap set as a "repeat" : warmup, 4 to 6 repeats at the highest possible intensity with really long rests (15-20'). It should really be all-out, ideally falling out of pump halfway on the 3rd route. Two or three one-minute deadhangs with 2' rests, possibly done as "frenchies" pullups. Finish tired, but not totally trashed.
day 5
Short-intense session. 1lap=1rep. Warmup, 2 to 5 reps close to my limit, ideally o/s of new routes at the wall  (if not, old routes climbed @ o/s realistic pace)  10-15' rests. Finish whenever I start to get a performance decrease.
day 3
Easy session. 3laps=1 rep. warmup, 3 reps at 80% intensity (the hardest i'm sure and confident to climb to the top with nearly flawless technique and pacing). 15-20' rests. Best if they are "old" routes, but focusing on a realistic o/s pace (shake&chalk @ every decent hold, slow and smooth).   
day 1
warmup, very few medium intensity boulders, 5 to 10 attempts on 3-move boulders at the highest possible intensity, 2' rests. Stop when i feel i've found my groove for hard individual moves, well before getting tired.
OR
hangboard. warmup, 10 3" hangs per side, cover the range of expected grips, adjust the grips aand load/assistance so that a 6" hang would be maximal. 1' rests.  Rest 5' at the end of the set.
find 3 "medium" pair of grips, and do 4 max-speed pullups on each one (ideally double-dynoing to touch the highest possible point with both hands). 5' rest between each pullup set.
One one-armer per side (with minimum assistance or maximum overload. Minimum assistance in my case  )

I'm going to print that off and stick it on the door. It is my new bible.

[Fultonius]

Ok, so arrived at the platform and there is actualy a pull-up bar and I have my metolius finger destroyers (rock rings).

So, any thoughts on the best routine for mainly gaining a bit of endurance?

Last night I just did some pull ups, encores on the small rung and plain hangs of the big rungs - 30 secs on, 30 off for about 5 minutes.

Any ideas?

[webbo]

I used to do a routine of a pull up,a dip,a leg raise,a press up then a sit up.Then do 2 of each,then 3 up to 5 then back down again.You could  do something like this after your finger work.

[SA Chris]

repeaters. Again and again.

[shark]

Last night I just did some pull ups, encores on the small rung and plain hangs of the big rungs - 30 secs on, 30 off for about 5 minutes.

Sorry bit off topic but there was something I wasnt entirely clear on with encores - do you pull into position i.e. for a full lock position do you have to do a full pull-up to assume the position?

[slackline]

You mean you don't levitate into it 

[Fultonius]

Last night I just did some pull ups, encores on the small rung and plain hangs of the big rungs - 30 secs on, 30 off for about 5 minutes.

Sorry bit off topic but there was something I wasnt entirely clear on with encores - do you pull into position i.e. for a full lock position do you have to do a full pull-up to assume the position?

I'm not entirely sure what the prescribed method is, but I generally hop into it. Obviously you still pull a little, but no, I don't generally do a slow pull-up from striaght(ish) arms into the position.