[uptown]

Ok, as i am doing the Kilnsey section of the new guide, what ever happened over the first ascent of the right hand line? I was told Malcolm got the FA? So the boulder problem start was joint FA of Nik and Andy, and the full route FA Malcolm?

I seem to remember Malc doing the boulder problem 2nd or 3rd go then flashing the rest of the route

Cool, cheers Will. Accidental first ascent it is then.  Can you comment on what Nik said about the 'going left'?

First there was Rob Gawthorpe with Mistaken identity.
Then came Dave Sarkar with some bolts and a less diagonal vision.
Nik Sellars stepped in to climb this as Massala martyr.
Ian Vickers pulled off a hold up high but didn't re-climb it.
I did the direct as a boulder problem called Joint enterprise (Font 7b+ ish), which Nik also did shortly afterwards.
Malc climbed MM by coming in from the right (where JE starts), he didn't actually do JE.
I pulled the dice hold off the top wall of MM.
Stu Littlefair reclimbed MM without the dice hold (now up to soft 8b).
I linked JE into the new top sequence of MM to give A Smarter martyr (also soft 8b).

So Malc is a beast but didn't actually climb the direct or the route as it stands.
The routes on this section of rock will become better defined when Mistaken identity direct finish is climbed. Clear now? 

[uptown]

What's the new guide and when is it due Adam?
I could offer some help for a couple of crags.

[account_inactive]

I think after causing this nightmare you should leave well alone

[north_country_boy]

The routes on this section of rock will become better defined when Mistaken identity direct finish is climbed. Clear now? 
[/quote]

Good luck with this, it will be a more direct line, but it will be horrendous! The holds above the scoop are horrible....

[willackers]

Me, Malc and Sutton came in from the left and traversed right to join Massala Martyr, we didn't come in from the right, Malc reckoned the whole thing was 8a+ but that was before some fatty pulled off the cube hold.

[Stu Littlefair]

could still be 8a+ I think. One of those borderline cases.

It's very good though; a short route that finishes nowhere but it climbs so well. Should be 2 stars in the guide I think and deserves more attention (though not from fatties).

[nik at work]

Me, Malc and Sutton came in from the left and traversed right to join Massala Martyr, we didn't come in from the right,

I'm really confused now. Joint Enterprise is a direct start which joins Massala Martyr at the end of the the short left to right traversey bit at the start of Massala Martyr. If you came in from the left you can't have climbed Joint Enterprise as it's to the right of the start of Massala Martyr. As I said I didn't see you climb it so can't comment but as it was explained to me Malc (and pressumably you and Sutton?) climbed half of Joint Enterprise before moving left to the jugs at the finish of the Massala Martyr boulder problem and then traversed back right to the finishing jug of Joint Enterprise, from which point both Massalas Martyr and A Smarter Martyr have the same line. Not that any of this really matters
As for the cube hold, that falling off has just levelled the playing field, now shorties and tallies alike climb the route in the same way (at least until some tallie comes up with a new cheaty lank sequence ) which is possibly worth soft 8b (not that I'd know). But it's true Uptown is fat.

Wot Stu said (he's always right).

[Andy F]

That makes it clear as muddy mud 

[willackers]

I'm confused.

[Stubbs]

What we need is a picture of the crag with some squiggly lines on, and maybe a guide to which holds are allowed on each climb!

[Adam Lincoln]

Still no clearer! 
So Andy looks the fav for the first ascent so far. Sounds like Malc and Will (From what you posted above Will) didn't do the JE start.
(This guides going to be more tricky than a thought)

[willackers]

I just watched the video of Andy and Nik on Vimeo and that doesn't help much. All I know is that we were trying something that started on the LHS and traversed right along the good holds to join the upper part of the route. It was quite a dynamic move, Stu was there too and he was doing the same start as us.

[Adam Lincoln]

I just watched the video of Andy and Nik on Vimeo and that doesn't help much. All I know is that we were trying something that started on the LHS and traversed right along the good holds to join the upper part of the route. It was quite a dynamic move.

Sounds like Masala Martyr that.

[uptown]

That makes it clear as muddy mud 

This section of the crag has some of the worst guidebook coverage going at present. Both Rockfax and Yorkshire Lime books are badly misleading. Sort it out for the next one Adam - as Stu says this area has some underated and usually overlooked routes and two of the better boulder problems on Yorkshire limestone.

What we need is a picture of the crag with some squiggly lines on.

Too true Tim, I have one drawn up somewhere with names and numbers attached.

Whilst the old pioneers were content with weaving up the lines of least resistance, nowadays they directly search difficulty rather then skirting around it. To that end there will be two ** 8b's here, a boney 8b+ along with two mainly ignored E6's and various hybrids. Now where have my pots, pans and padlock gone, or is vaseline better? 

[Adam Lincoln]

two of the better boulder problems on Yorkshire limestone.

Not sure these are going to be included, as if we include those two problems, all the others at the crag will need adding. I will put it to the powers that be.

[Stu Littlefair]

Will, you have a mind like a bowl of custard.

That day malc started to the right of where we started, did some nasty static work, then reached left into the jugs at the break. This is basically joint enterprise, but with a different last move to the way Andy climbed it.

I/We did the standard MM start, but that involves jumping, which rules malc out...

[willackers]

Was I even there?

I seem to remember us all trying the big move on the left?, we all definitely were at some point.

Sorry for the confusion, I've had too many nights out on the gary's.

[Adam Lincoln]

This is basically joint enterprise, but with a different last move to the way Andy climbed it.

So more importantly then, who gets the FA of SM in the guide then!? Shall we let Malc and Andy toss for it? Or I personally am not arsed either way.

[Serpico]

Just put it down as MM and mention that there's an alternate start to the right at the same grade?

[clm]

First there was Rob Gawthorpe with Mistaken identity.
Then came Dave Sarkar with some bolts and a less diagonal vision.
Nik Sellars stepped in to climb this as Massala martyr.
Ian Vickers pulled off a hold up high but didn't re-climb it.
I did the direct as a boulder problem called Joint enterprise (Font 7b+ ish), which Nik also did shortly afterwards.
Malc climbed MM by coming in from the right (where JE starts), he didn't actually do JE.
I pulled the dice hold off the top wall of MM.
Stu Littlefair reclimbed MM without the dice hold (now up to soft 8b).
I linked JE into the new top sequence of MM to give A Smarter martyr (also soft 8b).

So Malc is a beast but didn't actually climb the direct or the route as it stands.
The routes on this section of rock will become better defined when Mistaken identity direct finish is climbed. Clear now? 

I like your poem

[uptown]

This is basically joint enterprise, but with a different last move to the way Andy climbed it.

So more importantly then, who gets the FA of SM in the guide then!? Shall we let Malc and Andy toss for it? Or I personally am not arsed either way.

I don't quite fathom a guidebook author who isn't arsed about the detail, nor can answer a simple question.
As I've stated earlier Malc didn't climb ASM - sure he climbed past a hangerless bolt, on the rock I'd cleaned and pulled on a hold I'd put the effort into repairing, but he probably didn't realise that and irrespectively he didn't actually climb it. The top wall climbs on entirely different holds now too, so he hasn't even done that. There are two direct quality lines here and a historically important boulder problem - you choose what to write Adam, and if you follow Serps logic then you can strike Revelations out of your logbook.
 

[north_country_boy]

Will, you have a mind like a bowl of custard.

That day malc started to the right of where we started, did some nasty static work, then reached left into the jugs at the break. This is basically joint enterprise, but with a different last move to the way Andy climbed it.

I/We did the standard MM start, but that involves jumping, which rules malc out...

The ironic thing about what you have just written Stu, is that sounds just how Will told it, when I arrived at the crag just after Malc had done it....

With that logic Will, you do indeed have a mind like a bowl of custard.

[Adam Lincoln]

I don't quite fathom a guidebook author who isn't arsed about the detail, nor can answer a simple question.

When i say not arsed, i actually mean can't be bothered picking the bones out of a FA when there seems very little difference between what two people did. My understanding was JE finished up MM after the initial boulder problem start? (To create SM?)

Wow, Kilnsey is going to have more link ups on it than the cave soon!