UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => chuffing => Topic started by: cider nut on May 14, 2008, 01:59:00 pm
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I'm posting this on UKB rather than UKC to elicit serious responses (hopefully!), and also hopefully the question applies to bouldering as well as trad! Sorry for the wordy-ness, the basis is the following sentence, the rest of background:
Does anyone have any tips on how to avoid falling into the trap of 'this route is at a grade below my hardest lead, it should be easy'? Short of just *knowing* that that's silly thinking.
Last year I started pushing into a grade I'd been aiming at for 3 years (HVS). All the routes I did at the grade put me into a great mental state as I had to pull everything out of the bag to complete them, so as a result they were all mind blowingly awesome. That created a divide from all the lower grade routes though, and I kind of saw HVS as 'hard' and anything below that as 'easy'. Which invariably meant that I'd jump onto an HS to warm up, not be prepared for its challenge, fail on it, then my day would be spoilt. I got around this by warming up on solo or a second instead rather than an easier lead, as I can separate seconding and soloing problems in my head from leading. However, sometimes I only wanted to lead easier routes and was still finding them hard - quite frustrated as I never had a problem on HS until I started climbing harder! Think is, I KNEW what I was doing, but couldn't snap out of it - no amount of repeating 'HS routes can STILL be hard', 'nobody is entitled to be able to climb a certain/route grade' was working.
Over the winter I just tried to get out on whatever routes the weather allowed so this problem didn't rear its ugly head. I seemed to be climbing well, so was excited for the good weather to come round so I could push myself on hard stuff again.
Which it has, and so the pushing myself has started! Only just started mind - as I had a bit of a month off in April and have spent the start of May finding my feet. I've just had a storming week though, and things are going well (almost entirely because I've overcome several mental problems with climbing that I've struggled with, identified, and work on). So far I've been enjoying each route for what it is regardless of grade, but I'm wary that this won't last and the 'HS should be easy' problem will crop up again.
I suppose this might be seen as a grade mindset. And I agree it is in terms of the division between top grade and lower grades. I don't believe I'm grade chasing though - I want to make it clear that HVS is just my 'climbing hard' / 'next step up' grade, rather than a number I'm after, I only added the details of which grade for completeness. I enjoy those routes because of the mindset I have to get into to complete them, not because of the 'tick' - although I'm also a geek and ticks are good ;)
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Meh!
Just throw yourself at E1's w/ great easily placable gear and a clean dropzone and you'll be fine.
Find a nice grit parallel jamming or finger-crack so you can punch in cams quick as you like and bosh to the top. Balls to thinking about it.
Good luck.
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A state of mind that helps is `this will be hard, but doable'. That or get sandbagged a bit.
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Houdini - so never try easier climbs? Right, got it ;)
Paz - ta. We gonna meet up for a sandbagging then? Fancy Clwyd by the way? Mentioned a possible trip there to AJM...
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so never try easier climbs?
That's right.
Just how long do you want to consolidate HVS?
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Just how long do you want to consolidate HVS?
Well certainly not before I've onsighted into double figures of them (which will hopefully be tonight). They've only just started to feel a fraction less than very hard, I'm not quite ready to consolidate yet! When I first climbed HS I didn't feel the need to consolidate, I jumped on a VS after doing 2 or 3 of them. HVS is different! Not saying I won't try any E1s, I almost jumped on one on Saturday, and my climbing is so variable that the grade is often meaningless. But HVS is such a big milestone for me, and that's what this is all about I guess.
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once up a time when men were men and sheep were nervous and i had some hair.i went to wales for a weekend at the time my hardest route was grit vs.one of the lads with us was more or less retired from climbing but in his day had done some of the harder routes in wales and the lakes.we asked him what were good routes given our experience.3 routes later i'd led my first extreme.
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You're going to have to try pretty hard to sell Clwyd to me now I can climb on Sunset Buttress for the next six weeks.
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Webbo - I'm sure that happens, sometimes it's just about finding the right partner and jumping on stuff. But this is more a question of getting stumped on easier routes, not succeeding on harder ones...
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I failed miserably on Tippling Crack at Caley today. Gutted. Got to the large horizontal break absolutely knackered from stopping to place gear on the slightly overhanging wall and just couldn't do the heinous jamming crack above.
It was rubbish.
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Did you not spot that you can get both legs in the break and lie back and wave to your belayer upside down? I sat on my gear before that bit on my go mind...
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I was rubbish.
To be fair, I always strenuously avoided that route. Tip Off is more my style.
OP, just regard the warmup as a warmup and don't stress if you need to rest on gear or anything. Also if you are just knocking on the door of HVS (as opposed to solid on it), HSs are not really that much behind. In fact if you choose carefully you can find HSs that are harder than HVS. Nothing wrong with some mileage with a day of S and like to get your rock sense and gear placements sorted at the beginning of the cragging season.
How fit are you as opposed to when you were doing these HVS routes last year?
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Webbo - I'm sure that happens, sometimes it's just about finding the right partner and jumping on stuff. But this is more a question of getting stumped on easier routes, not succeeding on harder ones...
avoid easier routes.then you only fail on hard ones.
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Chris - thanks, although I couldn't possibly go with the resting on gear suggestion! ;)
I'm probably not as fit at the moment, but they're starting to feel easier. No idea why, thought it might have been a fluke but I've done three in fout days now.
Actually you've given me a thought, which is a solution to the problem but a bit of a cop out rather than an exact fix. Still, it's something I need to do though - I've got FAR too used to cams and I've got so out of practise placing nuts it takes me ages to get a placement I'm happy with. So only my warm up routes I ought to try to climb them without placing any cams. That way if I struggle I won't see it as an indicator that I'm not having a good leading day, as in my head I'll be treating them as a different challenge.
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On grit, that would be quite a challenge.
When you said in your OP fail on it
I figure that would mean resting on gear at some point.
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Ah right, sorry for the confusion - I meant fail to get up it, I normally downclimb to the ground.
"In fact if you choose carefully you can find HSs that are harder than HVS" - I think this is something useful to remind myself. However it has the disadvantage that it might make it harder for me to compose myself for a HVS, if I think they're no harder than HS...
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Ah right, sorry for the confusion - I meant fail to get up it, I normally downclimb to the ground.
Well if you are downclimbing under control you havent really given your all have you? Press on, trust the gear and fight the good fight.
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Yeah by the sound of things you're confusing "failing on" with "giving up on". Puts a different complexion on the question as it IS a purely psychological one if this is the case. You're thinking "this should feel easy as I can climb x many grades harder" and so when it starts feeling hard you think "this can't be right" and give up. I often have to look at why I am failing on something which I know I can do and realise that it's simply a case of trying harder. When something's at your limit the default setting is that of trying really fucking hard anyway so you don't have to make the conscious effort.
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Yeah by the sound of things you're confusing "failing on" with "giving up on".
Failing on *is* giving up on in my book. If you get to the top, you've learnt lots even if you didn't do it in good style. If you give up before you started, you're jumped wimped out of the learning experience.
Puts a different complexion on the question as it IS a purely psychological one if this is the case. You're thinking "this should feel easy as I can climb x many grades harder" and so when it starts feeling hard you think "this can't be right" and give up. I often have to look at why I am failing on something which I know I can do and realise that it's simply a case of trying harder. When something's at your limit the default setting is that of trying really fucking hard anyway so you don't have to make the conscious effort.
Yup, it is psychological, that's what I was trying to describe. You've worded it better than me, especially the last sentence :) Now what to do about it. Although just 'trying harder' could well do it...
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Like Chris said. If you have good gear then you should be falling off (or succeeding) not climbing down. Easier said than done I know but that's what you need to do. Mind you, I don't even own a harness any more.........
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Failing on *is* giving up on in my book.
Wrong.
Sounds like you are afraid of numbers. And of listening to sound advice. Think I did one HVS before my 1st E1 . . . Choose them right and nothing can hurt you.
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Not wrong, although maybe I should have said it the other way round, i.e. Giving up on it is failing (in my book - that's just the way I see it, not trying to preach it or owt). What I meant was that if I get up it that's not a failure, as I can learn more from what went wrong in terms of style.
Anyways, which sound advice have I not listened to? ;) Perhaps comments like "Balls to thinking about it" are likely to put a person off one's advice...
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Use all the smilies you need, they won't help you here. You don't need to think to climb. You just climb. The more you think the more doubt enters your mind. The more doubt the closer you are to failure. It seems reading your posts that you have an answer pre-prepared to shoot people down w/ as soon as they say something. It gives me the impression that you don't actually want to improve, that you are afraid to embrace what needs to be done.
Have you ever been involved in a mountain rescue? I've been involved in two. On both occasions (one involving someone who posts on here) they were fucked up enough to give me nightmares for weeks. On the first I spent a good hour waiting for a heli-rescue wafting flies from the open wound left by a kneecap that was knocked clean off (this was the slightest injury, mind). Both accidents occured on very easy but trecherous VS ground. These aren't the kind of routes you fuck about w/. If you are unsure, unsteady and looking to push your grade you get on overhanging terrain w/ a clean dropzone: no shelves, nothing to hit. It may feel more strenuous (it is) but it's a fuck sight safer. That's the advice I give to you. Give it a whirl, you might even surprise yourself.
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Blimey, I'm not sure where mountain rescue and accidents came into all of this! My struggles with easier routes is in my mind, not because I'm lacking in technical ability and likely to fall off.
I don't agree that you don't need to think to climb. And I don't agree that I haven't listened to adice - SA Chris and JasperSharpose made some good points, and I hope I sounded appreciative. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I'm not listening, I just think it's unrealistic advice. I can't warm up for a route at the top of my grade by getting on something harder. Especially when I have chronic elbow injuries. And it just bypasses the original problem, in my OP I already stated I have tried and tested ways round the problem, I was just looking for tips for facing it head on, which the other posters have given. Not everybody that disagrees with you is shooting you down, and just because I'm looking for advice doesn't meant that all given will be useful.
Maybe I should have posted on ukc after all ;) ;) ;)
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I think that part of what Houdini was saying was - think about the important stuff to do with the consequences of possible falls before you climb and do your best to reduce these risks by picking routes that are safe(ish) to fall off and then when you are actually climbing, don't let the dark thoughts of falling distract you (as you have already put plenty of rational, sober effort into resolving the issue) and just try your physical, instinctive best?
That used to be my approach and it worked fine for me.
I also think it is important to do plenty of routes that you find so easy that you can think about other stuff whilst doing them - that way you get used to not thinking about the possibility of failing.
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That's fair enough, but fear of falling doesn't really come into it (unless I climb indoors, but that's another story totally unrelated to this one!) I can't really describe the feeling I get when the easier routes aren't working, but it's more of a frustration and a inability to grasp 'what the hell is the problem here' (at the time), than a fear.
Jaspersharpnose described it really well with this paragraph:
<quote>Puts a different complexion on the question as it IS a purely psychological one if this is the case. You're thinking "this should feel easy as I can climb x many grades harder" and so when it starts feeling hard you think "this can't be right" and give up. I often have to look at why I am failing on something which I know I can do and realise that it's simply a case of trying harder. When something's at your limit the default setting is that of trying really fucking hard anyway so you don't have to make the conscious effort.</quote>
Anyway, I've got enough to go on now and it's not even a problem yet anyway, just be prepared so I don't encounter an unexpected halt to my current run of form :)
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Houdini - I really do hope you don't read my last post as another 'pre-prepared answer'. What looks like a pre-prepared answer could just as easily be somebody attempting to clarify their original question if they don't think the reply-ers have quite got what they're on about. Surely the OP's allowed to say 'no, that's not quite what I meant', without you going 'yes it is, you just don't like the answers'. The OP's not going to want to offend anyone as the misunderstanding is probably down to the way they phrased their OP, so they're not going to wade in and demand it's true that nobody understand them, but then they're opening themselves up to replies like yours if they do it timidly.
Not claiming you guys haven't grasped what I was saying, just it might be an idea not to go off one at me for not listening when there may be other explanations. My post was about a psychological issue as clarified by JSN, and your comments on that were 'don't think', and most of your advice was concentrated on a slightly off topic area - falling/accidents/climbing even harder.
Anyway, this is turning out to be hard work and it's my bedtime!
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I'm certain I have no idea what you want to achieve. I'm also certain that I'm the last person able to help you achieve just that.
I think you should try UKC.
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I keep looking at your avatar, and can just visualise you as that little dude, all exasperated (sp) at me.
Cheers for the posts. G'night.
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I have just re-read the thread, ciders, to try to understand the issue. I got a bit distracted with the "routes" side of things when I responded earlier. As it turns out, I have had the same conversation with Jasper before. I didn't get it then either - mainly due to my being a long term inconsistent climber (technical one day, weak the next, then strong, then stylish then totally shit) who has got used to being inconsistent and now accepts it as normal.
The upshot of this is that I have no useful advice whatsoever to offer on overcoming/avoiding the problem you describe. I do, however, think this was the right place to ask (plenty of good advice to be had here)
I shall make myself usefull by taking Houdini to another pub so you don't have to go drinking at UKC.
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I don't drink in pubs: people want to fight me.
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Not in the pubs I want to take you to; as long as we're holding hands :-*
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Cool.
I like lovey-dovey shit. Just no fucking climbing talk OK?!
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and no looking at other boys' legs
and I buy the drinks
and you have to laugh at my "jokes"
and you have to leave with me
actually, this could work...
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Maybe you should change your username to Sugar-Daddy? :-*
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all
I like that you pointed out that houdini was talking a bit of shite (no amount of smiley's - you puntered me H for not using them for some skipping shit, how does that work?), I don't think you originally explained yourself in the best way, despite your going to great lengths, sorry. I don't want to reduce the whole human experience and essence to binary logic, but your thread title's a double negative, the argument of which (`the I should be able to do this feeling') not everyone may have experience of or can sympahtise with, so it's not surprising anyone suggests a wholy different approach altogether. But I still think saying `do something else instead, that's harder' is just plain crap unhelpful advice - I mean great, take up unicycling while you're at it. This may sound vindictive of me Houdini, but I feel like Lady Vengeance. In this case in the sense that I should've told you when you were being a cunt to start with a long while ago, as after I gave you the benefit of the doubt you've just gone and done the same again to one of my mates. I hope I'm wrong. But more importantly, even though you were just essentially giving a load of Ano Ilgner esque advice (who grudgingly I admit we should all have read anyway, for the tick, if nothing else, it's better than Touching the Void at least), you and everyone else could still learn something and improve, so please bare with me.
Yes, everyone occasionally feels like there's a route below their limit that they think should be able to do that feels harder than expected. I've seen this amongst some of the best climbers I know, (none of whom post that regularly on UKB AFAIK BTW, though I think there are parallels with bouldering even if others can't see them), especially just after they got spanked by something nearer to their limit, and I suspect that a lot don't admit to it and simply ignore that which they can't do. People don't learn to unicycle thinking like that.
If you can tell yourself that the new route is indeed a different route, and there's a different reason (if there's indeed only one) by which it can be climbed, then I think you're already setting yourself up in a far better frame of mind than one where you assume it will be easy. Basically we're talking about onsighting (though I've seen it on stuff people should have wired too), half the work is involved in working out how to do the thing IMHO, if not more so. I'm falling in the trap of assuming you're in a safe situation, but if you can get in a state of mind like in the Honda advert and regard a route that you don't (yet) know how to do as a problem and an opportunity to make things (or in this case yourself) better, then it can hardly hurt. Just don't write off all the climbs in the world of that grade thinking they'll give the same particular experience. They'll be of different styles and in different situations for starters. I'll feel like a fraud if I pass on as simple hearsay anymore of abarro's wise words without crediting him, but (apparently) one of the big things you can do to help you climb E5 regularly is to realise that failing on an E4 or even an E3 the previous weekend, day, or even go, needn't necessarily stop you from afterwards having a go at a different E5, at all (ignoring cumulative fatigue, the chances of success are independent). Now I'm a bit more used to routes that feel desperate at first feeling more doable on subsequent goes, I'd say nonetheless one of the big things you can do to help you climb E3 well is to bloody well finish off the E4 or E3.
I can't unicycle yet btw, but if I find one in a skip I'll definitely teach myself.
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Smilies. Adjust radars Paz, they're slippping. You were puntered more for rude spam, but there's only one line to write reasons why in.
You're 1st paragraph is a whole lot of sillyness, I'm lost for words how to reply to it. And it's too too too long. The one piece of advice I've tried to pass on is that when you're trying to push yourself it's a whole lot easier and safer to do something w/ a clear fall zone. But you are right about one thing: Cider Nut has not explained what she want's particularly clearly.
Make those posts smaller Paz. And less silly, I skip read it ;)
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:yawn: Stop squabbling you cunts. ;)
though I think there are parallels with bouldering even if others can't see them
There are undoubtably parrallels to be drawn (with this issue) between on-sight trad, bouldering, sport climbing etc in my opinion. The "this should feel easy" mentality can happen when you're doing any type of climbing - well any that has a grade I suppose. You definitely get a lot more out of climbing if you can get rid of it and realise that it doesn't matter if something that's supposed to be well within your ability feels desperate - provided it's a good route/problem that you want to get done.
Another thing to remember is that a lot of (all?) routes / problems are different for each person. A grade is just a consensus of how hard most people find it and may be completely irrelevant to how hard you find it. This is particularly pertinant if you have very specific strengths and weaknesses like me but is relevant to everyone. With sites like Bleau.info and the Yorkshire Grit site and with people like Bonjoy putting the work in to try to get consensus on grades it means that they are now actually more fluent than ever and with 8a.nu etc people now claim whatever grade they feel is correct - which is a good thing.
These things will lead to more agreement on grades but also highlight the fact that there will always be disagreement as no problem / route will ever be exactly the same for any two people. Rambling aside, what I'm saying is that if a VS feels desperate to you but the E1 next to it seems to be a path then it might have nothing to do with your psychology and just that (for you) that's what they are.
Oh yeah and.....
Jaspersharpnose
:shrug:
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Paz, I just read that 1st para again for kicks. Fuck me it's excruciating! :lol:
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Not wrong, although maybe I should have said it the other way round,
There's no maybe, that's a definite.
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Paz -
Cheers, as usual you have a good point(s) if I can decipher it amongst the wordiness ;) (I think smileys are useful, although I wish UKB wouldn't convert my text smiley into a silly graphic), and not just because you stuck up for me.
From the responses I realise I might not have got across what I wanted to say properly in my OP, which is why I keep pointing people at Jasper's description.
Jasper -
Thanks for the thoughts, useful.
> With sites like Bleau.info and the Yorkshire Grit site and with people like Bonjoy putting the work in to try to get consensus on grades
Don't forget Rockfax, hehe.
"Jaspersharpnose" - oops, sorry! I hear 'sharp' I think exciting looking place on the Culm coast I've never been to.
SA Chris -
Agreed. But then I never think how to say things clearly until after I've stopped thinking about them, so if I write while I think it often comes out wrong. You think I'm bad on a forum, try having a fluid discussion with me in real life...
Houdini -
It sounds like you don't have problems with the mental side of climbing, but that doesn't mean it's not a big area that means a lot to some people. And a question about the mental side is never going to be answered in a couple of posts, instead one's got to gather ideas and go and try them out. Doesn't mean I'm being disrespectful if I try to further the discussion with 'yeah buts...'. So if you're expecting someone to go 'yeah, you're right!' I don't think that's possible, mental stuff isn't so black and white. Also don't forget I've already had a good think about this myself before coming on here, so I'm going to know which responses are on the mark, and off the mark, and which are providing ideas I hadn't yet considered. Just because I'm the one with the problem, doesn't mean all the people with answers are right. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be said, as off the mark comments help me pin down any hunch as well as on the mark ones.
Cheers
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I totally understand what you're feeling with the "this shouldn't be hard, why am I struggling" thoughts when on stuff a couple of grades below your limit.
Things I do to avoid this feeling:
I initally just avoided "easier" climbs of a style that didn't suit me, work your strengths and all that, but realised this was a rubbish plan. I now, mentally, have a top limit that varies with type of climb/rock eg. VS on cracks, E1 on slabs/walls etc.
I also avoid "warming" up on easier stuff that I think I might struggle on. I used to turn up to the crag with my "big route" picked, get spanked on an HS trutch thing and then not do much for the rest of the day.
Leading at my limit it when I climb best. I'm a lot more focussed and pull harder. Sometime, you just forget that you've got to put the effort in even when not at your limit.
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i think you need to stop beating up on yourself.if you go to the crag with the plan to do a certain hvs and therefore feel you "should" be able to piss up all the severes to warm up.you are almost certainly setting yourself up to fail.
treat warm ups as just that.if you start to struggle back off,repeat one you haven't struggled on.potter about doing stuff that makes you feel good.
i can warm up at my local crag on 7as but will get spanked on 5s at places i haven't been to before.i just keep telling myself that i'm not warmed up yet or that was a bad choice.
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It sounds like you don't have problems with the mental side of climbing...
Everyone has problems w/ the mental side of climbing at some point. Some improvise, adapt and overcome, others don't. Now I'd love to be able to tell you what you want to hear - but I've only got what works for me to offer. I find the more one ponders on routes the easier it is to talk yourself into backing down. I find keeping things moving is key, on boulder problems too. That's not to say I can always pull it off.
I trick I used to use is to only think about the next move ahead, not treating a route like a game of chess, trying to figure it all out. That's not to say that visualisation does not work. I just took it one move at a time and didn't get too stuck into thinking about it. Everything seems to slow when I think too much. In fact I'd say I climb at my best when I climb w/ no mind at all. I've tranced my way up loads of routes (bold slabs in particular).
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Fuck me it's excruciating!
Yeah I could've broke it up a bit more. Thankyou for taking it in good humour, probably better than that which I wrote it in, and not turning this into a slanging match.
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Galpinos - thanks. Hmm... not a bad idea, tailor my warm ups using particular styles of route. I'm bollocks at slabs, so could try one of those as a warm up (if available) as it's less strenuous and I'll learn more about slabs. Then even if I mess it up, I've warmed up, and am not put off my big lead as it's no doubt not a slab. "Sometime, you just forget that you've got to put the effort in even when not at your limit" - absolutely, that's the issue here and another good way of putting it.
Webbo - I certainly don't go expecting to piss up severes, but I do get thrown if I find one tricky as I 'forget' that they might be hard (as Galpinos says) so don't try as hard. This happens even if I think 'this might be hard', as effort comes from more than just that thought. I think there's some weight in not beating myself up over it though and remembering the point is to warm up - so just try something else WITHOUT letting it bother me (it's the latter part I'm missing).
Houdini - "Some improvise, adapt and overcome" - and some think about it, work it over in their heads, and discuss it with others online. "I find keeping things moving is key" - good point, I used to climb a lot more fluidly (I think!) but have picked up bad habits from others (at least that's my excuse). Last year I was feeling psyched for an HVS one evening, but thought to myself 'no, go for a VS instead and see if you can do it smoothly, quickly and in good style' - so I did, and it felt good. Useful thoughts about how many moves in advance to think too. There's a balance between getting tunnel vision (not thinking far enough), and concentrating on where you are so as not to psyche yourself out (not thinking too far). For me thinking is still important though, and I think the times I 'trance' myself up routes are when I've got my thinking right, rather than turned it off - I appreciate that may be different to the way you do it!
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How do you feel about falling? Which is not the same as failing (failing in style is a fine pursuit).
Frankly talking about climbing sucks. It's not half as interesting as doing it. For the record, I don't think I really learned to climb before I went to Koh Tao on me tod for a season. There's nothing like being on your own in a mosquito-infested jungle w/ no hospital, no partners and one tiny POD mat and a world of snappy, crystaline granite old skool hi-balls to help you get up stuff in one piece. I strongly rate being on your own as a way of surviving rock climbs.
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Falling's par for the course outdoors, although I haven't fallen for a while. Indoors the thought of falling terrifies me but that's a different story!
I don't understand how that's relevant though? I can't help but feel that you're answering some question about me pushing the grade, but that's not what my OP was about. It was about climbing routes a couple of grades below my top grade (or not climbing them as the case may be - giving up instead), therefore in theory I'm less likely to fall off them anyway.
Anyways, off to the Lakes now, have a good weekend climbing in the sun.
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Been thinking about this stuff today whilst talking to drunk people.
Nearest I can get to what I think you are talking about is the feeling when I can't do a boulder problem that I have previously climbed with relative ease - I don't mean when I can't do it first go, I mean when I can't do it at all. This usually hits me hard when I can neither remember my old sequence, nor work it out anew. Am I on the right track for the type of feeling you are talking about, Cider? I deal with it by having a good laugh at myself and remembering that its only climbing and so not really that important.
I have certainly climbed with other people who have had proper screaming tantrums at not finding routes (which are well below their grade) easy enough - you know who you are Joe Picalli. ;)
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Having just re-read your OP word for word you make at least 3 references to striving forward/pushing and many references to grade. I also think that your OP is as wooly as a mammoth and desperate to fathom in a usable/answerable way. On a number of occassions you appear to have problems in thinking laterally - just a tiny shift, not out of the box - as to why things may be relevant. Alas, in doing so, slowly but surely, you have crushed any enthusiasm or interest I may have had in this thread.
To me, your OP question is bizarre and negative and any answers you may get by posting it are likely to be unhelpful to you. Just enjoy the climbing.
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Sorry if someone's already recommended this but try reading "the way of the Rock Warrior" by Steve Ilgner. Sounds a bit :wank: I know but it might help.
Cheers
D
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That will be "The Rock Warrior's Way" by Arno Ilgner. I seem to recall recommending it to Ms. Nut when a couple of years ago.
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Houdini - Good thing that forum threads enable you to post replies then eh, to clarify things when it turns out the OP wasn't clear. It's hard for me to know how my initial post will sound to everyone, but who cares if I didn't manage to write it in a very clear way straight off, I'm sure I can expect a little leeway - I've tried my best to make it clearer but if it still doesn't make sense (which you seem to be implying) then maybe you're the wrong person to reply and could leave it be instead of berating me for it? If you dislike thinking about climbing and talking about it so much, why are you replying to a thread which is based around thinking about climbing, where it seems you haven't even experienced the situation I'm trying to explain? I did say on Thursday that I've bot enough to go one now anyway, so you just seem a glutton for punishment to keep coming back...
Fiend - And you also know full that I've read it and what I think about it.
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I don't know what you think about and am interested in opinions on it?
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Nearest I can get to what I think you are talking about is the feeling when I can't do a boulder problem that I have previously climbed with relative ease - I don't mean when I can't do it first go, I mean when I can't do it at all. This usually hits me hard when I can neither remember my old sequence, nor work it out anew. Am I on the right track for the type of feeling you are talking about, Cider?
Yeah, kind of like that but especially if you're using that as your warm up route and it throws you off your main aim for the day. Actually this thread has helped me pin down the problem a bit more. I think the reason it happened last year and never before, is that I found the grade jump to HVS quite different to breaking into other grades - HVS was the first grade I found really hard, (and also the one I'd worked on for the longest, including a couple of plateaus). That made a big divide in my head between HVS and all lower grades, which is where I think the whole problem came from. Luckily, this year HVS has suddenly seemed a lot less hard and just like another grade, so maybe I won't even get the problem any more. But IMO it's still useful to discuss just in case and interesting to think about (so I can think about climbing at work, instead of thinking about work, lol).
SA Chris - Were you talking to me? I don't understand your question...
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Sorry, missed a word.
Fiend - And you also know full that I've read it and what I think about it.
Should have said "what you think about it" referring to that book (apologies, knackering weekend charging around highlands).
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Sorry, missed a word.
Fiend - And you also know full that I've read it and what I think about it.
Should have said "what you think about it" referring to that book (apologies, knackering weekend charging around highlands).
Ah gotcha. It wasn't the typo I was referring to (hadn't even noticed that), just wasn't sure what the comment referred to.
I really rate the book, and I learnt a lot from it. There's lots of bits you read and go 'oh yeah, that makes sense, never thought of it that way'. I thought it would be quite convoluted and hard to read and make sense of, but it was actually quite clear, if a litle 'self-help' (but I didn't mind that). I'd recommend it to anyone that likes thinking about climbing ;) In fact I think that everyone could get *something* from it, but if you don't really struggle with the mental side of climbing (and perhaps boulderers have less mental issues than tradders?) you'd be better off buying a conventional training book instead.
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I think Arno describes one good approach for certain types of climb, but maybe doesn't explain his reasoning to allow the reader to apply it to other areas. He just says `this is what you should think' and `this is what you shouldn't think' Cheers mate, do you know of any good cults I can join too?
But then I'm a Marius Morstad fan because, between the lines of his training bumf, he told it like it was. His advice is available for free somewhere.
I'd just like to further berate the ignore it and do something harder approach. I mean, that's not much good when you're committed on a bold route if it's even possible. I always liked that semi-beta description from Climb about Hovis, that basically after the start says `now with total confidence in your ability to climb 4c head for the top'. I don't think you necessarily get such confidence simply from having achieved harder grades once or twice. I think it can come from having finished off lots and lots of VSs. Even if the odd one feels like a struggle, especially thrutchy ones, well I mean they all are in their own way, in my experience this sort of climbing seldom turns up on the delicate top sections of bold routes that you don't want to fuck up. I'd even say do as many as you can, until you know when you feel like you want to move up a grade. And then you can guarantee you won't fuck up the easy sections of the routes you're ultimately aiming for. And you'll have learnt lots of different moves and techniques, even things that aren't specific moves, like climbing vegetated rock and getting back on route, and stressed proofed them, so that you can rely on them. And you might even have had fun on the way.
It's probably no surprise to people if I say I don't have a happy la la lead head, but nor would I swap it for one, because I think a sword has to be forged in fire and I've achieved as much as a lot of other people with it. If you will ask questions that are in effect general, like `how do I become a better climber' or even `how do I remain i control of my mind' then you will get a wide range of answers, but I think I can answer a different one, and give my approach to the above two at the same time. As it's recently meant I can climb the bold routes I've wanted to for ages, in good style, but more importantly without having to take any stupid risks - there's no reason why I shouldn't do them again. Basically I don't know how to avoid the `this should be easy' feeling, anymore than any other, however I do know what I do when I get it:
If you fail an onsight due to a fall then just use the gear to work the route and redpoint it, draw a line under it, maybe work out what you could have done differently to onsight it, or stop feeling bad if there was nothing you could have done to onsight it anyway (normally if there was no schoolboy error it boils down to `tried harder'), then do something else. Moreoften you haven't fallen yet (while not being scared of falling is good, not falling has often given me a tick and onsight stolen from the verge of failure). So if you're starting to get it (the feeling the route's harder than you thought) then you just have to concentrate on the fact that the route is the grade it is, and work out how to climb it at that grade. Or if it helps you raise your game you could tell yourself it's a grade harder (you'll no doubt tell your friends this later anyway) and concentrate on working out how to climb it at that one. You might need to just step back (maybe not literally, if on route) and give yourself a minute. For it to sink in that your'e on a different route, it's harder than you thought, and things aren't going to plan, so you'll have to try harder than you thought you'd have to, and just to give yourself a minute to sort yourself out. I'd also start persevering, but for your belayer's sake as much as your own make sure any investigative approach results in something constructive, either looking for holds, equally importantly ruling out possibilities of holds as shit and so identifiying the best, experimenting with moves, or in placing more gear. When you think it's all going wrong, I reckon that's kind of all the more reason to be thinking how can I use that hold, how can I stand on that one, how can I get over there, can I get any gear there, etc. Although I think `fear of falling' is often a distraction from the real issue, fear is a big part of it, for example if your big route's comitting and on a sea cliff I should hope you're a bit scared as it's a serious environment. I say if you're scared just place more gear. That's what it's there for. Anywya, so far I've assumed you've got a position to return to. On a big stamina route I'd break it down into little sections, always heading for a possibility of gear, a good hold or even a rest. You know one of these will come up sooner or later if you stay on route (because even if it's a solo, there will be good holds and rests for its grade). As you make progress the route's going to gradually improving your mood as you achieve more and more intermediate goals. And if it doesn't then maybe it's time for a gloves off no holds barred fight. Failing or losing's OK, you don't want to fail just because you gave up, because you'll wonder what would've happned if you didn't, maybe even if you'd have made it (or I would anyway). Certainly not many would pay to see that fight; the fans would be pissed off. Personally sometimes I just want to know what will happen even if it involves fallling (where the gear's good). If the pitch's sustained but shorter (or the meat of the grade is packed into a shorter section) so there's no rests, then if I can go into happy la la mode (sorry, the zone) then great, but otherwise it's even more important for me to keep at the task in hand.
Sorry it's long, but I've never been able to drip feed you all my tips.
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Paz - do your fucking PHD! :spank:
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Come to think of it, my impression of the HVS/everything-below-it divide could have been amplified because a person that I used to climb with a fair amount never used to climb anything below HVS. This only occurred to me yesterday as I was reading something on UKC (http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=301729) and realised that not everybody leaves VS behind as a grade when they get better - which made me think that I'd let a bit of a grade-snob mindset creep in without knowing it. Now I've banished all that, I might be on track! We'll see...
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You can't go wrong with VS's . Had one of my finest should I go for this moments on Crows Nest at Birchens .... Class route , good one to do to get over any pyschological problems you may have with slabs .....
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Didn't we do this thread almost exactly a year ago?
I look forward to May/June 2009......
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Didn't we do this thread almost exactly a year ago?
I look forward to May/June 2009......
I think that the wording was subtly different but all merges into one after a while.
When ever I find a lower grade climb difficult I just put it down to being fat\weak\hungover punter. ;)
bluebrad
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Didn't we do this thread almost exactly a year ago?
I look forward to May/June 2009......
Feel free to link me to it. I don't follow this forum enough to know what's already been posted ad it's not exactly the easiest thing to search for.
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http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,7278.msg106672.html#msg106672 (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,7278.msg106672.html#msg106672)
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:lol:
It is the same. I think cider nut needs to cut down on the cider. It's affecting her memory.
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Funnily enough, I had a suspision that was what you were talking about, but I thought I'd give you the benefit of the doubt. So they're both question of a psychological nature, how exactly does that make them the same? Just because they both mention a push into HVS? Well well done for skim reading. The older thread was about not being able to climb at all some days and being wildly inconsistent, the more recent one was about being able to climb hard stuff without trouble (which I couldn't do before) but mistakenly assuming I can climb everything of an easier grade. They're no more the same than two questions on physical training, but no doubt there's many of those. I'm happy for you that you're not held back by head games, but don't knock others who are.
Both threads were significantly different questions as far as I'm concerned, with different solutions. I'm on top of the first issue, and I feel I'm on top of this one now, no thanks to the bullshit on here.
Don't worry, there won't be any more threads from me, I know where I don't fit in.
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Don't worry, there won't be any more threads from me, I know where I don't fit in.
After four pages of people attempting to help you with your problem then I think that's a tad harsh. ;)
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Don't worry, there won't be any more threads from me, I know where I don't fit in.
Blimey... don't take the hump. It was only a joke...
I think everyone has been very generous in sharing their advice and responses to your questions on both these threads.
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Aye, no need for a flounce.
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You make it sound like people have gone out of their way to reply to the thread - that's what a forum's for.
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You make it sound like people have gone out of their way to reply to the thread.
You don't think anyone has gone out their way? I think quite a few people have gone out of the way of the usual banter and pisstaking to give some well informed and thought out opinions for a second time. This was followed by a bit of light banter and fun, which you appear to have offence and threatened to flouce off about.
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I'm happy for you that you're not held back by head games, but don't knock others who are.
I don't see anyone who's done this.
I'm on top of the first issue, and I feel I'm on top of this one now, no thanks to the bullshit on here.
??? People were trying to help.
You make it sound like people have gone out of their way to reply to the thread - that's what a forum's for.
Somone asks for help, other people try to help them. Perhaps they have gone out of their way to do this, unless they were replying by mistake of course. :-\ It may be what a forum is for but there's no obligation for anyone to give their advice and people (you included) are normally pretty grateful that others take a bit of their time to think about and attemp to solve their problems.
I don't get your last posts cider. They seem rather out of character based on what you have written previously.
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Hmmmm ..... :agree:.... I personally was trying to help ... Unusual for me .... You said you had a pychological problem with slabs ... The one I suggested is perfect .... Give it a whirl ......
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It's hardly a flounce, I just don't get on with the 'banter and pisstaking' on here despite trying, so if you can't take the heat etc.etc.
I'll still post where I think it's useful, but have given up on threads like these.
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It's hardly a flounce, I just don't get on with the 'banter and pisstaking' on here despite trying, so if you can't take the heat etc.etc.
Its nigh on impossible to expect people to post the responses that you want, its down to you to weed out that which you don't think is relevant and ignore (rather than getting wound up by) those responses which in your eyes are "banter and pisstaking".
have given up on threads like these.
From my limited observations your in the minority of people who post threads about head-games/psychological issues in climbing. There are a plethora of threads about training, often with very insightful responses, but since this is UKBouldering the focus would mainly be on bouldering where head-games are less of an issue (yes I know, most people do a bit of everything and there are some experienced climbers etc. etc.).
I have to say though, I'm with those who posted that it shouldn't matter, just go out, enjoy yourself, so what if you back off of something thats below your limit, there's always tomorrow, and at least at the end of the day your in the pub having a drink as opposed to waiting in A&E.
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its down to you to weed out that which you don't think is relevant and ignore (rather than getting wound up by) those responses which in your eyes are "banter and pisstaking".
Nah, it's down to me to piss off back to UKC where I came from :)
I have to say though, I'm with those who posted that it shouldn't matter, just go out, enjoy yourself, so what if you back off of something thats below your limit, there's always tomorrow, and at least at the end of the day your in the pub having a drink as opposed to waiting in A&E.
I'll have to agree to disagree a little, to me thinking about climbing is where its at, doesn't mean I don't enjoy myself either (it's possible to think about stuff without letting it spoil your day - it just helps the *next* day go better imo). I finally clicked on some stuff last month, and onsighted my first E1 as well as climbing some HVS slabs. Even wrote an article on it (soon to appear on UKC). Each to their own though.
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I'll name that tune in 4
Time of the month
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Thanks for reinforcing my point
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I'll have to agree to disagree a little, to me thinking about climbing is where its at, doesn't mean I don't enjoy myself either (it's possible to think about stuff without letting it spoil your day - it just helps the *next* day go better imo). I finally clicked on some stuff last month, and onsighted my first E1 as well as climbing some HVS slabs. Even wrote an article on it (soon to appear on UKC). Each to their own though.
I didn't mean to imply that you shouldn't think about your climbing. Its just that everyone has off days, and dwelling on it/being introspective too much might simply compound the problem. Sounds like you've sorted things out though, good work, hope it continues.
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no thanks to the bullshit on here.
Don't worry, there won't be any more threads from me, I know where I don't fit in.
UKB is a funny place, Cider Nut. I would suggest that the people here are a LOT more serious about their climbing than anyone over on UKC. You may not realise who they are through the names but there's a lot of talented and dedicated people here. And because people are on a similar wavelength, there's a lot of banter.
I'm sorry this thread's rubbed you up the wrong way, I'm confident it hasn't been malicious, but I think you've read the banter wrongly.
Anyway, at least your trad is starting to click. :shrug:
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In fact I'd say I climb at my best when I climb w/ no mind at all. I've tranced my way up loads of routes (bold slabs in particular).
Only just read a few snippets of this thread, and it seems to be dying a death anyway but just noticed the above and thought it worthy of comment.
I TOTALLY FUCKING AGREE. 99.9% of the time I'm shit at climbing but those few moments of inspiration have been when I've switched on the auto-pilot. A wad for the teutonic font of wisdom.
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UKB is a funny place, Cider Nut. I would suggest that the people here are a LOT more serious about their climbing than anyone over on UKC. You may not realise who they are through the names but there's a lot of talented and dedicated people here. And because people are on a similar wavelength, there's a lot of banter.
I'm sorry this thread's rubbed you up the wrong way, I'm confident it hasn't been malicious, but I think you've read the banter wrongly.
Anyway, at least your trad is starting to click. :shrug:
Thats what I meant to say.
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A wad for the teutonic font of wisdom all bullshit.
Gotta say hOUD has a point (and a pint no doubt).
Thinking too much often hinders your climbing. Being relaxed and just going with the flow often works wonders. Having said that, I've no idea how to get into "The Zone" to acheive that sort of thing. Lucky I don't do routes now. :-[
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I've no idea how to get into "The Zone" to acheive that sort of thing. Lucky I don't do routes now. :-[
I thinks its just one of those things that comes and goes, one day you'll be bold as brass and not really scared of anything, the next your balls seem to shrivel up (maybe thats the steroids eh ;) ) and you're left whimpering even though you're a foot above your last bolt.
I also think that sometimes its very dependant on the sequence of events; if you're warm up goes well or you find your usual warm up at a crag really easy then the day goes well and you push yourself, if it goes badly you start worrying, complicating things and just end up (althought I hate the phrase) 'zoning out'...
ps. cheer up cider nut...
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and you're left whimpering even though you're a foot above your last bolt.
Funny you say that Paul, but I never really likes sport 'cos I didn't trust gear someone else had placed. Trad wise I knew what the gear was like and was OK taking lobs. Sport always made me reluctant to lob. How weird is that? :lol:
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and you're left whimpering even though you're a foot above your last bolt.
Funny you say that Paul, but I never really likes sport 'cos I didn't trust gear someone else had placed. Trad wise I knew what the gear was like and was OK taking lobs. Sport always made me reluctant to lob. How weird is that? :lol:
I guess that depends on where you were doing sport ;D
A new article I see:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1082 (http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1082)
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Hmmm yeah. What do you think of it?
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Hmmm yeah. What do you think of it?
I'm not really the best person to ask when it comes down to the mental side of climbing...Sorry
I'm sure someone else will read it and give their opinion soon enough.
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That's what I'm worried about ;)
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Its good, its a trap we all fall into. I never fall off trad climbing, cos I don't push it hard enough. I've got the technique and the craft to enjoy an off-vertical E5 which is falling to bits, but its still a comfort zone. Steep stuff scares me shitless, I'm getting better but once the pump sets in I go blind and start looking for ways out. I just need to do more but its always a few days here, then a couple of months back in the peak. Its the way I've always improved though - consolidate a certain style/grade then try to convince myself I can climb the grade below outside it.
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Its the way I've always improved though - consolidate a certain style/grade then try to convince myself I can climb the grade below outside it.
Similar to the method that I am using at the minute - get comfortable at a level on one sort of rock (grit in this instance) and then prove to yourself that you can climb a grade lower on different rock of at least two types (limestone and granite in my case) to give yourself a chance to figure out how it works with regard to movement, gear placements and the like before launching into matching that level.
Repeat as required until you reach E11 or until you no longer enjoy it... ;)
bluebrad
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Like JB It's easier for me to determine what grade I can climb at by using a long plumb bob. Subtract grades according to distance the bob is away from the rock. Rock type is irrelevant, I think I've climbed most of them in the UK by now.
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Good article Sarah....
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Cheers guys.
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A very honest article, though I feel little closer to understanding the problems it, and these threads, write about.
Actual climbing is something I have rarely agonised about. Admittedly, I often get anxious about matters that might interfere with climbing: too much work, too little strength, too much weight etc. However, I have always enjoyed the climbs themselves: to me they represent freedom from thought, a radical disconnection from the quotidian. At worst they are a relief and contrast from the working week. When the motivation to face the rock is at its lowest ebb, I regard them as I do a side-salad: something to deal now in order to feel better and happier later.
Being shut-down or finding things tricky out of all proportion to their grade or appearance is just part of life's rich pageant. Being humbled by a low-grade grovel is more a reason for amusement than self-doubt or castigation... especially if it comes shortly after dancing up a high-grade technical test piece. Hubris, when self-acknowledged is a pleasure and a virtue. Either that or I have a mental problem as, although primarily a boulderer (and a weak / "techniquey" one at that), I do find myself unerringly attracted to the hideously "old-school" and potentially embararrassing end of trad!