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the shizzle => shootin' the shit => Topic started by: cheque on July 07, 2021, 10:52:48 pm
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Bloody hell :o. Hard work tonight but realistically Denmark didn’t deserve anything.
Now England -an England team who can finish jobs, stay calm under pressure and keep the ball no less- are in a position most of us have never known before (a position we’ve never been in in this competition)! What’s everyone’s feelings for the final? Do we have a chance? How many should Southgate play at the back? What will happen when the irresistible force of the commentators’ pro-England bias collides with the immovable object of their unconscious collective man-crush on the Italian players and coaching staff?
I know how much people like to tell everyone that they don’t like football, particularly when there’s a major tournament on so there’s an option especially for that.
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Buggeration. At least we might get some sleep tonight.
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Hopefully we'll lose to the far superior Italians. Just so the beer bellied, nazi tattooed, brexit and Tory loving cockneys who claim to represent England can cry into their flat, warm Carling.
For the actual, normal, everyday, peaceful and pleasant person I hope England win. But still think the more savvy Italians will nick it.
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Well thanks for the spoiler, I was hoping to avoid the result and watch it on catch up ;)
I agree with Andy F.
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I don't like football but I can get into just about any sport if it is that sport's biggest competition. I quite like the world cup.
I can't get excited about the Euros. It seems half cocked if you've whittled down the field by telling Brazil, Argentina etc that they can't play. Aren't there some African countries who are handy as well?
The Euros are bogus - am I wrong?
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Bloody hell, the misery is in full flow on here.
Enjoyed the match here, despite the tension. Not the biggest football fan (comes well behind cycling and tennis for me) but have still seen plenty of disappointment from England over the years so seeing a young team getting to the final by generally playing postively (after the group stage) and trying to win matches has been pretty good.
Imagine we'll go into the final as underdogs but I'm sure Italy would have preferred to play Denmark and we definitely have a chance.
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I can't get excited about the Euros. It seems half cocked if you've whittled down the field by telling Brazil, Argentina etc that they can't play. Aren't there some African countries who are handy as well?
The Euros are bogus - am I wrong?
You must hate the rugby six nations. That one pretty much just excludes the two best teams from the competition :lol:
I dislike football for many reasons, not least because of the assumption that every bloke on the planet is a fan and must therefore be happy for it to be a conversation starter. Working in construction this gets tiresome pretty quickly.
But Gareth Southgate seems like a really nice guy so I’m glad they’ve got to where they have. Still want them to lose in the final though to avoid the inevitable triumphalism.
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Nibs??
I don't really like football. I hate mostly everything it represents. The celebration of Neanderthal behavior. The tribalism, The blatant cheating. The money, (by christ, the money!) The corruption. The bias. The utter drivel ejaculated by everyone, non of whom actually play football and not least by the highly paid pundits (did I mention the money) who invariably come across as thick as 3 short planks. I think the entire nation is being conned on a twice weekly basis.
As my lad quite wittily said the other day, as we passed a pub or something with giant England flags dangling,
"Its all a bit EDL isn't it"
All that being said and being at loose end last night, I sat and watched most of the match and was actually quite entertained. I can only really get vaguely interested once we get to this end of a tournament and that's only really so I don't feel like a complete scrooge at work when everyone's wanking on about it.
Pain au Niad.
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I'm like Sam, usually indifferent, the kids are quite excited by it all though, so I'm getting swept along a bit. I'm glad England are through, I thought both teams played excellent attacking football, and there was some brilliant goalkeeping on both sides.
I think they will struggle against Italy, but could just pull it out the bag.
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I don't like football...
The Euros are bogus - am I wrong?
The US world series must really piss you off too then :)
Seriously though, I like football it is a great spectator sport, but I don't like England games. It's the whole ethos of fans driving around blaring horns if we win, and burning cars if we lose that puts me off.
Look at what Cav has achieved in the TDF though, amazing.
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Look at what Cav has achieved in the TDF though, amazing.
That we can agree on. I reckon prior to this TDF Cavendish has already given me some of the most exciting moments in sport I've ever seen and his comeback this year has been incredible.
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The Euros are bogus - am I wrong?
Yes.
I hope you're being tongue-in-cheek here, but it's the internet and difficult to tell. Almost all sport includes some exclusion in competition to create the competition, be that geographical, gender or something else. Is the 100m breaststroke bogus because you could do front crawl faster? Is all women's sport bogus because men would beat them?
I normally watch the occasional match and endure England matches, especially in Euros/World Cup. I've actually enjoyed most of the matches that I've seen this time with the exception of the Scotland match. Clearly I want England to win and don't understand anyone who wants us to lose to stop triumphalism - I just wish the triumphalism would stop because it's unnecessary and ridiculous. However, I expect Italy to beat us as they looked far better in the other semi-final.
Also, what Toby said about Cav. Coming back after that long in the sporting wilderness is truly incredible.
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I don't like football but I can get into just about any sport if it is that sport's biggest competition. I quite like the world cup.
I can't get excited about the Euros. It seems half cocked if you've whittled down the field by telling Brazil, Argentina etc that they can't play. Aren't there some African countries who are handy as well?
The Euros are bogus - am I wrong?
It's called the European Cup, not sold as anything else?
No African Teams are likely to ever threaten to win the WC for a while, they have their own cup, https://www.cafonline.com/total-africa-cup-of-nations/ also bogus.
Then there's the Copa America as well, https://copaamerica.com/en/news/ is that also bogus without any European or African teams playing?
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Jesus, have you lot had your coffee this morning? Wind it in and enjoy a multicultural, talented, politically engaged team playing to their potential.
Edit: obviously the Euros aren't bogus (copa America, African Cup of nations etc).
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The Euros are bogus - am I wrong?
Yes.
The other continents have equivalents (Copa America, African Cup of Nations etc.) and they’re taken as seriously as the Euros are.
In theory the continental championships are easier to win as there are fewer teams from a smaller area but it doesn’t seem to make that much difference- this is only the second Euros where England have won a knockout match for example. Obviously we’re underachievers (at least in our own minds) but we have a better record in World Cups.
In some ways the way it’s smaller nations best chance of winning something makes them harder opponents and the smaller pool of teams makes it harder to avoid the very best in the knockout stages etc.
You’ve also got the element of all the nations coming from the same tactical/ stylistic school of thought as well- at World Cups it’s not uncommon for a very good team from one continent to get thumped by one from another due to each setting up in the style that’s currently dominant in their world but quite easy to overturn using the tactics from another that they rarely face -one beautiful aspect of World Cups of course- but there’s none of that at the continental tournaments.
The home continent advantage is huge too (it’s very unusual for South American teams to win European-hosted World Cups and vice versa). Where the World Cup is like an international meet at one world-class crag, the continental ones have more of the air of a bunch of locals all trying to burn each other off at a familiar eliminate venue that they each think they’re the boss of.
There’s also the every-four-years factor- in the same way that the Olympics are a snapshot of which athletes are able to perform in a particular location at a particular time rather rolling tracker of which ones are the outright best, the major tournaments are a test of whose squad/ manager/ players combination are up to it at that time. It’s not uncommon for a nation that won the last World Cup to be dumped out of the following Euros or Copa America early on.
There have always been Mickey Mouse/ semi-friendly tournaments for international teams (The Nations League is the current version in Europe) but there’s a solid dividing line between these matches and major tournaments. The continental championships are on the same side as the World Cup, not the other one.
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I watched most of the match last night on my IPad with the sound off as the missus was watching something else on the TV. She went to bed as the match ended and I started listening to all the comments. I was quite stunned to hear that of all the people in the commentary team only Ian Wright was alive the last time England got in to a final.
Watching Mark Cavendish after he won his first stage in this years tour was one of those “ I think I’ve got dust in my eye moments”
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Imagine if the coffee thread (for example) was 60% people saying “I think coffee tastes gross and I consider myself above the people who I often see drinking and serving it but I do sometimes like a cup of Nescafé when I’m really groggy in the morning”. :lol:
We love football because we grew up with it and we find it an exciting sport to watch. We’re aware of all the twattery that comes with it but we can see past it because we love the game.
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As a Wales supporter there is some consolation in the fact that these players and manager seem to be pretty decent folk and that a few high profile English nationalist wankers have declared that the current team do not represent them.
However, it’s not enough to counter the fact this will be seized on by other wankers to demonstrate English superiority/entitlement for the next 50+ years so for that reason I hope they get well and truly humped in the final.
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Thank the lord for that pint of wine.
Italy are clear favourites but, as ever, "we have a chance". After the first 30, I though England looked decent. This feels like the first England team in a long time that appear to play as a team and aren't full of egos. Southgate seems to have done a decent job on them.
Pickford still gives me the willies though, crikey.
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Pickford still gives me the willies though, crikey.
In what way, like Slender Man?
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Italy are clear favourites but, as ever.
Is that true? I don’t follow Italian football but the team seem to be made up from players in teams throughout Serie A (including some of the smaller teams) and Serie A is not the force it was if the Chanpions League is anything to go by. The star centre back is 36 yo without a club, they are playing well but so are England. I’d put England at least on a par with Italy but with added benefit of home advantage.
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Cheque, you do a good job of selling it. It's still not quite as prestigious as a world cup though! I'm not saying that it's not exciting in and of itself. I just struggle to match the level of excitement with my perception of how big a deal the tournament is. For me, it'll only come home if/when we win the World Cup.
But, Come on In Ger Land and all that.
Now, Cav in the TDF. THAT is exciting!
I agree that getting sore about triumphalism is daft. Didn't we all get excited when Nalle did Burden of Dreams? Football fans aren't all EDL members.
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Hopefully we'll lose to the far superior Italians. Just so the beer bellied, nazi tattooed, brexit and Tory loving cockneys who claim to represent England can cry into their flat, warm Carling.
For the actual, normal, everyday, peaceful and pleasant person I hope England win. But still think the more savvy Italians will nick it.
Good job there are no right wing nationalists who hate the EU in Italy!
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Will you're (almost) completely wrong. Just on the stats, let alone the spirit.
The last 4 world cups have been won by European teams - France, Germany, Spain, Italy.
The last 10 world cups, so 40 years of history, have been won 7 times by European teams, 3 times by S.American. (France x2, Germany x2, Spain, Italy x2, Brazil x2, Argentina x1).
For England to get to a final in the Euros means they've competed at the very highest level. To win the Euros would be to show you're a top 3 footballing side globally.
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I dont think Italy are far superior. They are probably a bit better but there's not a lot in it. Add in home advantage and England have a real chance. Italy looked second best for the majority of the match against Spain.
I think the biggest thing that gives me grounds for optimism is the Italian style, which should make for a good open game. Denmarks tactics were to be extremely physical and essentially frustrate England, much as Scotland did in the group stages. They did it brilliantly but Italys more open style will allow England more space and hopefully allow them to express themselves.
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Denmarks tactics were to be extremely physical and essentially frustrate England,
Whoa whoa. Isn't it the other way round, that England are experts at putting themselves between the opposition and the ball, forcing themselves to be toppled to get free kicks? Not diving per se, but being very canny about going to ground. It's not me saying that, I know nothing about the game, but the commentators said it multiple times.
"This bloke [who'd just been awarded a free kick] is the most fouled player in the premier league two years running".
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"This bloke [who'd just been awarded a free kick] is the most fouled player in the premier league two years running".
Grealish has quick feet, he gets fouled a lot because the ball's gone by the time the tackler's foot gets there. I'm not his biggest fan but think he has been decent for England this tournament.
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Ditto Sterling. Yes the foul for the pen was dubious at best, but when you have the courage and skill to run at a defence there's always a chance that those things can happen.
As an England fan since Mexico '86, I've always been frustrated by our tactical reluctance to not challenge an opposition in that way, instead relying on 4-4-2 formations, and (usually) swinging crosses in that the opposition deals with easily.
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Pickford still gives me the willies though, crikey.
In what way, like Slender Man?
Can’t speak for Galpinos but Pickford regained his often disconcerting flappiness last night. For a player who’s picked more for his distribution than his shot-stopping (but who had been great with both so far) it was stressful to see him slice not just clearances but balls he had more time with. Of all the knockout games so far it was only the Ukraine one where the dread thought of “if it goes to pens they have the better keeper :sick:” wasn’t there and obviously it’s the same for the final.
Like Foden he seems to be channeling the spirit of 1996 with a dreadful throwback hairstyle too. :lol:
I’m not sure Italy are clear favourites but the facts are there- unbeaten for years, 100% tournament record so far (albeit with one shootout), manager with a proven record in club football, lots of very good players, best in the world at “game management” etc. I think if they go ahead in the final then we won’t be able to get back into it.
It’s hard to deny that they have a pre-destined vibe to them but bizarrely and excitingly England do too. It would be great fun to watch as a neutral I’m sure. Whether the home advantage is that good a thing I’m not so sure of though. I reckon we’d have beaten Denmark in the 90 if the match was in Baku or somewhere- stuff like booing constantly whenever the opposition has the ball has the opposite to its intended effect. At least that brass band aren’t allowed in at the moment.
It's still not quite as prestigious as a world cup though!
Yep, but quite is the operative word there. Also, our grandparents’ generation won the World Cup once so, as any Scottish, Welsh, Irish or Northern Irish football fan will tell you, we’re the best in that for ever so it’s more important that England win this one to prove we’re indisputably the best country. ;)
Denmarks tactics were to be extremely physical and essentially frustrate England,
Isn't it the other way round, that England are experts at putting themselves between the opposition and the ball, forcing themselves to be toppled to get free kicks? Not diving per se, but being very canny about going to ground.
England have become experts at this under Southgate and Denmark are an easy team to do it against. Whose fault that is is certainly a point of debate…
Exactly why Grealish is the most fouled player is quite a long thing to explain but his presence is guaranteed to win free kicks in particular areas of the pitch and that’s why he was brought on when he was and subsequently taken off when he was (ouch!) as well.
It’s far from entirely “the other way round” though. Denmark defended very deeply for a huge amount of the game (almost all of England’s goals in this championship have been from close range and Denmark crowded their own six yard box constantly to frustrate this) and were playing for penalties long before the start of extra time. Look at the stats, particularly the passing and shots. (https://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro-2020/match/2024490--england-vs-denmark/statistics/?iv=true) It was a cagey game with both teams exploiting the others’ weaknesses, which England did better. Not classic viewing but I think a true neutral would agree that England were still the team that “played more football” despite the obvious unattractive elements.
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My two cents - being an England "fan" is problematic for any number of reasons, mainly all the Sun-reader jingoistic bollocks.
Someone pointed out the other day that whenever we play Germany, they are always referred to as "The Germans", not German the country. That does not happen when we play any other nation.
While I'm chuffed to bits to see England doing well, I think the icing on the cake is the degree to which the aforementioned Sun readers are hopefully feeling really conflicted at getting behind a bunch of what they previously dismissed as see as wet / woke, knee-taking, Marxist do-gooders.
This slipped under the radar, but Gary Neville summed it up last night, talking over images of Southgate celebrating:
"The standard of leaders in this country the past couple of years has been poor. Looking at that man, he’s everything a leader should be, respectful, humble, he tells the truth."
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express themselves.
It's one on one
Express themselves
They can't be wrong
When something's good
It's never gone
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Someone pointed out the other day that whenever we play Germany, they are always referred to as "The Germans", not German the country. That does not happen when we play any other nation.
Often hear French team referred to as "The French", likewise "The Dutch"?
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Essentially what Cheque, Galpinos and TTT said, although I thought it was a fairly clearcut penalty. There was an appeal on Kane in the second half which was even clearer and should also have been given.
England are canny as you say but Denmark are a team of big men who tried to dominate physically, especially in midfield. Rice in particular was manhandled all evening, as was Mount. You could see them both getting wound up about it, testament to the Danish tactics working. I also thought the ref was very (over)tolerant of this manhandling for the vast majority of the game with some weird moments of inconsistency, the pen being one, but the unintelligible decision to book Maguire for challenging in the air being another. Was amazed there weren't more yellow cards. Edit, just remembered the bizarre decision that led to the free kick that Denmark scored from, penalising Shaw for doing not very much. The pen was 50/50 but there was plenty that went the Danes way, so I don't think anyone can have any serious complaints on that front
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Someone pointed out the other day that whenever we play Germany, they are always referred to as "The Germans", not German the country. That does not happen when we play any other nation.
Often hear French team referred to as "The French", likewise "The Dutch"?
Yeah, there's a lot I agree with in TTTs post but this point is plain wrong. I heard constant references to the Danes last night!
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Just so the beer bellied, nazi tattooed, brexit and Tory loving cockneys who claim to represent England can cry into their flat, warm Carling.
Says the woke, middle class, coffee snob who lives in his van, and was always last pick at football in school.
You can’t beat a good stereotype
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Maybe, but I know which side of the argument I'd rather be on.
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penalising Shaw for doing not very much.
Looked like he had him in a tackle hold that wouldn't have looked out of place in a rugby match IMO.
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Just so the beer bellied, nazi tattooed, brexit and Tory loving cockneys who claim to represent England can cry into their flat, warm Carling.
Says the woke, middle class, coffee snob who lives in his van, and was always last pick at football in school.
You can’t beat a good stereotype
I played for the school team and live in a 4 bed semi. But the rest is pretty spot on. And I'm proud to be woke.
Also, what does Rice add to the midfield? Henderson is a far better player and adds much more to the team. It was noticeable that during the huddle before extra time Henderson lead the team talk after Peewee, while (the massively overrated Kane) shuffled off. He's the real team captain.
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UKB at its hand-wringing best. Surely a bit of international craic is all part of the fun of the tournament? I thought this was a fun exchange (the Danish text reads "we eat you for breakfast"):
https://www.indy100.com/viral/the-sun-bacon-england-danish-b1879798
The Danish paper's is especially good. Lock up your villagers!
If we ever play Ze Germans again I won't be happy unless the team wheels onto the pitch in a Sherman tank, which then blasts a flag from its main gun which unfurls to read "They don't like it up 'em!"
The Germans could respond by creating an effigy of the £ symbol and having an enormous 4-storey high animatronic Merkel set it alight.
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Just so the beer bellied, nazi tattooed, brexit and Tory loving cockneys who claim to represent England can cry into their flat, warm Carling.
Says the woke, middle class, coffee snob who lives in his van, and was always last pick at football in school.
You can’t beat a good stereotype
I played for the school team and live in a 4 bed semi. But the rest is pretty spot on. And I'm proud to be woke.
It wasn’t aimed at you to be honest, just a generalisation..... I more than fit into the stereotype! Just thought that us woke climber types shouldn’t be throwing stereotypes around even if we prove the point that they are generally true to some degree....
I think that for the first time in my lifetime we look like a team of winners! Southgate has done an amazing job with the culture of the squad, and despite the nazi’s, what this team actually represents is a diverse multicultural Britain, not afraid to make tough choices and stand by them to be counted. They have courage and are prepared to lose. They are also in it together, maybe the country could learn a thing or two from them...
It’s a final and anything could happen. Win or lose they’ve certainly made me feel proud about my country for the first time in a while. I think they’ve done us proud.
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More booing during the national anthem and a fucking laser in the goalie’s eye. Scum. Subhuman scum.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57763001
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The tournament has been great so far. Most games have been played at a cracking pace with loads of goals and pretty evenly matched teams having to play at their best to win.
Can’t wait for Sunday. Italy look very strong and they have guile and gamesmanship in spades, but I could say the same for the current England team now which makes for an exciting final.
It’d be amazing if England win it.
This is pretty good https://thequietus.com/articles/30189-gareth-southgate-england-politics (https://thequietus.com/articles/30189-gareth-southgate-england-politics) on the politics of it all.
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The standard during this tournament is the best I've ever seen I think, it's been really impressive with exciting matches from many teams. I'm usually ambivalent about supporting England because of all the toxic baggage brought by a sub-section of the supporters, reflected by the laser pen incident and booing of the Danish anthem. Then again, there are also plenty of reasons to support and cheer on this particular team and manager: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jul/05/england-team-semi-final-players-racism-inequality?fbclid=IwAR1ftBbgnXhfbBLFZOlesDSvsC43T-ycLnY46jUmjnuRVGK0v5mEeAYWl2Y (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jul/05/england-team-semi-final-players-racism-inequality?fbclid=IwAR1ftBbgnXhfbBLFZOlesDSvsC43T-ycLnY46jUmjnuRVGK0v5mEeAYWl2Y)
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Not a fan of football, haven't watched any of the Euro games (my wife insists that I should watch final)!
However, I am aware of the actions and words of members of this team which I am fully impressed by. Gareth Southgate's response to questioning around the team taking the knee was outstanding and shut the press down. The actions players themselves have taken within their communities and politically are also impressive in their understanding and solidarity towards those at the bottom of the pile. Using their platform for the greater good.
The England Football Team/ Her Majesty's Official Opposition :clap2:
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Interesting the divide displayed on this thread between those able to acknowledge negatives while focussing (and celebrating) overwhelming positives, versus those seemingly focussed only on grumbling about negatives...
Also interesting how politicised the game has become for some people.. or rather how they're attempting to use it as a tool for pushing their political agenda. To me it's football, and great because it's nothing else but a stupid yet beautiful game. Not anything to do with party politics and who governs the country. Thought Gary Neville was a bellend for trying to introduce political opinion into a great moment in sport.
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I hope England win and then have some sort of Smith and Carlos moment
(https://www.nypl.org/sites/default/files/smith_and_carlos.jpg)
Edit: sorry Pete, that was just athletics eh!
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Can’t wait for Sunday. Italy look very strong and they have guile and gamesmanship in spades, but I could say the same for the current England team now which makes for an exciting final.
If it comes down to quality of shithousery the Italians are nailed on! Looking forward to it, and I've not felt like that for quite a while!
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Can’t wait for Sunday. Italy look very strong and they have guile and gamesmanship in spades, but I could say the same for the current England team now which makes for an exciting final.
If it comes down to quality of shithousery the Italians are nailed on! Looking forward to it, and I've not felt like that for quite a while!
Racial politics versus party politics, it's a very different thing. When an entire race has been prejudiced against for literally hundreds of years, treated as sub-human scum (ahem..) and used as slaves to enrich current power structures, then I think most people can see the power and relevance of those moments in sport.
When it's just someone living a pretty good life in an open and fair democratic state, who has a chip on their shoulder because they don't agree with the current government in power, then keep it out of sport ffs.
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Can’t wait for Sunday. Italy look very strong and they have guile and gamesmanship in spades, but I could say the same for the current England team now which makes for an exciting final.
If it comes down to quality of shithousery the Italians are nailed on! Looking forward to it, and I've not felt like that for quite a while!
Racial politics versus party politics, it's a very different thing. When an entire race has been prejudiced against for literally hundreds of years, treated as sub-human scum (ahem..) and used as slaves to enrich current power structures, then I think most people can see the power and relevance of those moments in sport.
When it's just someone living a pretty good life in an open and fair democratic state, who has a chip on their shoulder because they don't agree with the current government in power, then keep it out of sport ffs.
I can't stand Gary Neville (LFC vs MUFC rivalry), but he was spot on with his comments.
Southgate has been a far better leader of England than Boris the butcher has of the country. He's instilled a real team spirit in the squad, been tactically aware and his handling of the anti-woke idiots has been excellent.
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That may be true, but he's also been a far greater leader than my line manager at work, but I don't fucking harp on about it like a stuck party political broadcast, because it's completely irrelevant to the topic of football.
Should we compare Southgate's leadership qualities to that of the president of the BMC, or the local council, if leadership comparisons are so relevant?
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Also interesting how politicised the game has become for some people.. or rather how they're attempting to use it as a tool for pushing their political agenda.
Are you including the England players and manager in that?
To me it's football, and great because it's nothing else but a stupid yet beautiful game. Not anything to do with party politics and who governs the country. Thought Gary Neville was a bellend for trying to introduce political opinion into a great moment in sport.
If you’re arguing that politics and sport shouldn’t ever mix then I think you’re onto a loser…there’s a long history of it. If this govt chooses to start a pathetic culture war (including dog whistle racism) then they shouldn’t be surprised if people push back. Particularly black players. I think you’re confusing party politics with politics more generally Pete. Gary Neville made no comment about the Conservative party. Same with the England players. So it’s not party politics. Culture wars like the one this govt are propagating bleed over into race and equality issues - not as easy to separate out as you suggest.
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Racial politics versus party politics, it's a very different thing. When an entire race has been prejudiced against for literally hundreds of years, treated as sub-human scum (ahem..) and used as slaves to enrich current power structures, then I think most people can see the power and relevance of those moments in sport.
Sorry Pete I had forgotten that we’d sorted racism out in this country, and that there isn’t any differences in outcome in any areas based on race any more.
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England doing well at football is great. The England fans aren't overall worse than those of any other nation's and most people watching and getting excited are ordinary people who are just psyched cos a pretty dynamic and likeable English national team are playing well.
And if you're concerned about the jingoistic nature of it and the lack of "wokeness" in the whole affair (as someone who's definitely a bit of a woke lefty SJW type myself) this England team is the most diverse, progressive and broadly supported national side we've ever had. There was an oped in the Guardian about how three young British Muslim women were so excited cos they felt like the team and the support was so much more welcoming than before! There was also someone who went to a match presenting as the gender they wished to for the first time, found the atmosphere very welcoming, and Jordan Henderson tweeted at saying how glad he was that they felt welcome because the game is for them too, explicitly. The kneeling and the lgbt bands. They're a good team and good lads!
Yes the hyperbole gets a bit tiring but It's Coming Home, so just have a bit of fun with it!
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The odds are it's going Rome, not coming home.
If England do win then expect reams of nationalistic jingoism in the redtop rags.
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Yeah but they always do that and so what? Doesn't mean they own the result, or the nation's identity. It's mine as well and I fucking love it.
But yeah we'll probably lose. Still though!
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Here I am, although a bit late.
Well I don't like football and I didn't watch any match, just the goals highlights.
I realized that what I like in general is the emotions from the commentator, more than the feat in itself.
I can recall a fan's video and yelling "Come on you fucking beauty!" for Zanardi's gold in London, video sadly removed.
I can recall Galeazzi's "We can't die now!" for the Abbagnale brothers rowing, and many many more.
This time, this guy did it for me. I hope he knows what that means to (some of) us.
https://youtu.be/L0DClGro7N8 (https://youtu.be/L0DClGro7N8)
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Rice has been a defensive powerhouse. He does an enormous amount of dirty work for little reward and has looked one of our best players for my money. I rate Henderson but if you can't appreciate Rice then your Liverpool shirt is showing I think Andy... :tease: I also think having Henderson on the bench to close games out is a great option.
I would like to see Foden over Mount I think for the final, but wouldn't be too upset if there were no changes. Southgate rates Mount because he is so clever and understands the tactics better than anyone else on the pitch, I can see why that would be useful in a chess match final.
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Rice has been a defensive powerhouse. He does an enormous amount of dirty work for little reward and has looked one of our best players for my money. I rate Henderson but if you can't appreciate Rice then your Liverpool shirt is showing I think Andy... :tease: I also think having Henderson on the bench to close games out is a great option.
I would like to see Foden over Mount I think for the final, but wouldn't be too upset if there were no changes. Southgate rates Mount because he is so clever and understands the tactics better than anyone else on the pitch, I can see why that would be useful in a chess match final.
As a Liverpool fan, I am biased towards the real England captain. Rice is very one dimensional, whereas Hendo has won (and captained) every major trophy at club level and is a much more complete player. His tactical knowledge and experience would be essential against the wily Italian team. His support of the LGBTQ+ community and general humility mark him out as a real top lad, not saying Rice isn't.
Still not sold on Mount, he ghosts through large parts of games.
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I can recall Galeazzi's "We can't die now!" for the Abbagnale brothers rowing, and many many more.
Totally :offtopic: but the Searle brothers v the Abbagnale brothers in the coxed pairs is one of favourite Olympic moments. Shame it got taken down from YouTube the last time I checked.
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I agree with Pete to an extent on keeping politics out, taking the knee isn't a political act, it's a human one, as is writing to support LGBT fans and wearing rainbow laces, but slagging off the government (and I despise them with a vengeance btw) feels a bit too much. If it was something specific, for example if they had cut funding for grassroots sports and then hypocritically basked in the glory of sporting success, then it would feel more warranted.
Anyway, back to the footie - I can see why the Rice is preferred over the magnificent Hendo when playing with the two sitting midfielders. Rice does the dirty jobs well, I think he's better at covering and tackling, whilst Phillips has a great engine and a decent range of passing. My only reserve watching the matches so far is we've been so reliant on the full backs and wide forwards combining. If we get negated out wide it feels like we have little attacking threat, although Kane getting his mojo back and dropping deep to take passes might help with that.
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If it was something specific, for example if they had cut funding for grassroots sports and then hypocritically basked in the glory of sporting success, then it would feel more warranted.
Patel and Johnson had used the England Team to fuel their culture war. They then pivoted from dog whistle criticism to OTT tub thumping. I think that is specific enough to warrant a bit of push back. I’d expect the political leaders to support the team but the way it is being manipulated would make me sick if I was a former England right back and might make say something.
On the other hand, school sport survived the ten years of austerity so, you’re right, there’s nothing to criticise them for there….
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The amount of negativity on this thread is remarkable. This is a young England team doing great things at a very competitive international tournament, led by one of the most likeable person in the game.
Yes, a significant of fans have terrible views on politics and society in general but why does that mean other people shouldn't get to enjoy the success of the national football team? Should we also not have fun at Christmas, or NYE just because some other people we don't like are enjoying themselves? The booing of national anthems is pathetic and crass, but the majority of fans don't do it. Let's enjoy all the positives mentioned already instead.
So I am very ready to get behind the team and have a hell of a time in the build up the match (before being a nervous wreck throughout it). I hope you all manage to crack a smile too when the boys bring it home!
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On the other hand, school sport survived the ten years of austerity so, you’re right, there’s nothing to criticise them for there….
Woah! Gove axed the sport leaders programme within about 3 weeks of assuming leadership at the DfE in 2010. It paid for specialist secondary PE teachers to work in primary schools a couple of days a week. Invaluable given primary teachers are not PE specialists. Small saving, big loss.
If school sport is surviving the ravages of austerity, it’s not for want of trying.
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I have no claim to being a serious fan, but I've really enjoyed the whole tournament and many of the games - there seem to have been some really excellent matches. The atmosphere in our neighbourhood close to the stadium in Copenhagen has been absolutely fantastic. My earlier buggeration comment earlier wasn't a whine or anti-England. I simply genuinely wanted Denmark to win and am disappointed we won't get to see them in the final.
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If England do win then expect reams of nationalistic jingoism in the redtop rags.
In what way would that be different to the usual news agenda in the Express, Sun etc?
Patel and Johnson had used the England Team to fuel their culture war. They then pivoted from dog whistle criticism to OTT tub thumping. I think that is specific enough to warrant a bit of push back. I’d expect the political leaders to support the team but the way it is being manipulated would make me sick if I was a former England right back and might make say something.
On the plus side though, if they're concentrating on how to manipulate sporting achievements for themselves, they're not out breaking international laws, or trying to deport anyone their focus groups happen to take against
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On the other hand, school sport survived the ten years of austerity so, you’re right, there’s nothing to criticise them for there….
Woah! Gove axed the sport leaders programme within about 3 weeks of assuming leadership at the DfE in 2010. It paid for specialist secondary PE teachers to work in primary schools a couple of days a week. Invaluable given primary teachers are not PE specialists. Small saving, big loss.
If school sport is surviving the ravages of austerity, it’s not for want of trying.
We obviously need a sarcasm emoji!
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Yeah, sorry, read in haste.
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Southgate’s open letter is worth reading
https://www.theplayerstribune.com/posts/dear-england-gareth-southgate-euros-soccer
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Can’t wait for Sunday. Italy look very strong and they have guile and gamesmanship in spades, but I could say the same for the current England team now which makes for an exciting final.
If it comes down to quality of shithousery the Italians are nailed on! Looking forward to it, and I've not felt like that for quite a while!
Racial politics versus party politics, it's a very different thing. When an entire race has been prejudiced against for literally hundreds of years, treated as sub-human scum (ahem..) and used as slaves to enrich current power structures, then I think most people can see the power and relevance of those moments in sport.
When it's just someone living a pretty good life in an open and fair democratic state, who has a chip on their shoulder because they don't agree with the current government in power, then keep it out of sport ffs.
Was that reply aimed at me Pete? That seems quite the response to my comment that both teams know how to "win" a penalty.......
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jul/05/what-is-shithousery-and-why-its-the-world-cups-biggest-problem
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No, Teestub’s comment before yours.
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Yesterday, I walked around not knowing how to feel about actually getting to a final.
This morning, much to my partner's annoyance, I cranked up the amp and played all the old England footy songs, all the way back to Keegan and Brooking in '82.
If I'm honest, I'd lost interest in football of late, after it being a huge part of my life. I've stood on the terraces at the old Wembley and followed England to the World Cup in Germany in 2006 - some wonderful times
So I'm going to enjoy the next few days and try to ignore Boris in his England shirt.
The match will be hard to watch, hopefully the reward will be a victory 🙂
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I walked around not knowing how to feel about actually getting to a final.
:lol: The only cups I’ve ever seen my team lift are the 1987 Freight Rover Trophy and the 2013 Blue Square Bet Conference Premier. I have absolutely no idea what you do when a team you support is truly in the running for a major title, let alone if they actually win it!
To be honest (and probably partly due to the above) I feel like I imagine a lot of England fans do- not choking to theoretically weaker opponents in the semi was the real test and the playing in the final against an excellent team that we can honestly claim to be in the same league as is the icing on the cake.
This tournament’s already markedly better than every other one I’ve ever seen England play in and barring the seemingly unlikely event of a down-to-nine-men, 6-0 drubbing on Sunday I’ll be cool with whatever happens and hopeful that the positive characteristics of the current England setup become as entrenched as the negative characteristics of the previous ones.
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France vs Switzerland was the game of the tournament for me so far. Plucky Swiss playing as a team, not giving in and giving it all against a complacent French team who thought they would walk it.
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Yeah that was great. Pogba with a Pardew-esque hubristic dance after scoring his goal, the commentators foaming over them way ahead of time but Switzerland refusing to lie down. Performances like that do seem to fit the narrative that the origins of many of the current Swiss crop as refugees from former Yugoslavian states gives them a bit more backbone than the stereotypical Swiss side.
I enjoyed Spain- Croatia the most I think. Impossible to really see which way it was going to go until Olmo really got going for “the Spaniards” in extra time. Spain seemed headed to the final to me, on one of those classic getting-better-every-match tournament progressions.
Czech Republic- Denmark too. Not a display of “top top” football but two teams who knew they weren’t expected to have had a shot at the semis going at it like crazy.
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I walked around not knowing how to feel about actually getting to a final.
:lol: The only cups I’ve ever seen my team lift are the 1987 Freight Rover Trophy and the 2013 Blue Square Bet Conference Premier. I have absolutely no idea what you do when a team you support is truly in the running for a major title, let alone if they actually win it!
To be honest (and probably partly due to the above) I feel like I imagine a lot of England fans do- not choking to theoretically weaker opponents in the semi was the real test and the playing in the final against an excellent team that we can honestly claim to be in the same league as is the icing on the cake.
This tournament’s already markedly better than every other one I’ve ever seen England play in and barring the seemingly unlikely event of a down-to-nine-men, 6-0 drubbing on Sunday I’ll be cool with whatever happens and hopeful that the positive characteristics of the current England setup become as entrenched as the negative characteristics of the previous ones.
Really like this and agree. I guess I've been following England matches since about 1990 - last time I actually got really excited was Euro 96 as a teenager! Since then I've just become progressively more cynical and bored of watching. Our teams always seemed to be tired and scared of failing at big matches.
Feels like Southgate has transformed this fundamental attitude and given them more confidence to try. I was delighted by the 6 minutes of overtime in the Danish game; old England would have punted the ball about in our own half. This new Southgate England was actually trying to score a goal until the final whistle blew. That's how you win penalties and force own goals and ultimately win matches.
The cynical me says we've had a pretty soft run through the tournament and we were lucky to play a weak Germany side. And so the final is going to be first world class team we'll play. But actually the England teams I've watched my whole life to now would have conceded goals and lost to average teams.
Yes I cringe at how the Tories will capitalise on the euphoria of winning (if it happens). But I still desperately want England to win!
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last time I actually got really excited was Euro 96 as a teenager!
I have absolutely no idea what you do when a team you support is truly in the running for a major title
Short memories round here! Southgate and his Lovely Lads were in a world cup semi final a few years ago!
Mike, the chants are supposed to be instructional and have just this sort of circumstance covered. You're supposed to go fucking mental la-la-la-la.
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I mean have they played against truly weak sides? Croatia and Germany are arguably past it but still have top players who have seen WC finals. Denmark got through to the semis fair and square. Yes we've not played France, Belgium and Portugal but Italy had Wales and Turkey in their group, they had a Belgium without arguably their most important player, they scraped past Spain. They're an impressive side but England has also handed out thrashings and barely conceded.
I think Italy might be slight favourites but it's by no means one sided.
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they had a Belgium without arguably their most important player
Yeah, what has happened to Fellaini?
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I picked my 7 year old grandson up from school today. He goes to a catholic school in Malton, the school has a fair percentage of Polish children. Today was football day all the kids were in football kit and playing football and making flags for their team.The kids were all singing Vindaloo as they game out and having a great time.
Sometimes football is the best and worst of all things.
My grandson didn’t know what a Vindaloo was.
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I found this highly amusing
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jul/09/politics-out-of-sport-politicians-out-of-football?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
"Did you see the prime minister in the fancy seats at Wembley on Wednesday? He seemed to have come dressed as a particularly brutal Matt Lucas impersonation of himself. As for the young lady standing to his left and smiling indulgently at him, it’s nice that his … carer, is it? … takes him out for the day and buys him a football top. "
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they had a Belgium without arguably their most important player
Yeah, what has happened to Fellaini?
His form dipped after La Dolce Vita.
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Only managed 128 minutes for Roma.
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I don't do the football thing but happened across this and thought it was quite magnificent....
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/292234299896365056/863806481521705020/image0.jpg)
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:tumble:
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The best team won, deservedly in the end.
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First half was fantasy stuff, everything went England’s way but you knew we needed to get another goal before half time because it couldn’t last. Felt like the whole tournament caught up with us in the second and we were lucky to stay in it to the last kick of the thing. Everyone looked knackered and out of ideas. Tactics were off, substitutions were misjudged but I don’t think anyone would watch that and think we wuz robbed however close it went in the end.
I haven’t changed my opinion since the last post in this thread (last serious one, not the Fellini joke), I’m fucking psyched that England were the second best team in this Euros (Italy hadn’t been behind in a game for about two years or something but they were totally rattled for long periods in the first half) and like every other England fan I now fully expect us to win next year’s World Cup. ;D
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First half was fantasy stuff, everything went England’s way but you knew we needed to get another goal before half time because it couldn’t last. Felt like the whole tournament caught up with us in the second and we were lucky to stay in it to the last kick of the thing. Everyone looked knackered and out of ideas. Tactics were off, substitutions were misjudged but I don’t think anyone would watch that and think we wuz robbed however close it went in the end.
I haven’t changed my opinion since the last post in this thread (last serious one, not the Fellini joke), I’m fucking psyched that England were the second best team in this Euros (Italy hadn’t been behind in a game for about two years or something but they were totally rattled for long periods in the first half) and like every other England fan I now fully expect us to win next year’s World Cup. ;D
Amen to that. Hopefully the tournament can eclipse the appalling choice of the venue.
Now thousands of armchair critics can stop pretending that they know anything about football and return to pretending to know about epidemiology and virology for the next 18 months.
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We've got a broad selection of Olympic sports to be armchair critics of before normal service can resume.
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First half was fantasy stuff, everything went England’s way but you knew we needed to get another goal before half time because it couldn’t last. Felt like the whole tournament caught up with us in the second and we were lucky to stay in it to the last kick of the thing. Everyone looked knackered and out of ideas. Tactics were off, substitutions were misjudged but I don’t think anyone would watch that and think we wuz robbed however close it went in the end.
I haven’t changed my opinion since the last post in this thread (last serious one, not the Fellini joke), I’m fucking psyched that England were the second best team in this Euros (Italy hadn’t been behind in a game for about two years or something but they were totally rattled for long periods in the first half) and like every other England fan I now fully expect us to win next year’s World Cup. ;D
Yep, after half an hour we were hanging on for half time. Hoped for a fix that never came and it felt similar to the Croatia semi (and periods of the Denmark game), abandonded or weren't allowed to play the passing game that had got us that far and reverted to the long ball, rearguard action/chasing a goal, tactics that we've deployed for pretty much every tournament since I've been watching and are yet to prove effective.
We could have had things go our way, with another ref they could have had a sending off but not sure that would have made any difference. In the end they were just better than us.
Roll on the World Cup, we'll be improved again and the last team that lost the Euro final in their home Stadium went on to win it. Maybe it's coming home via the long route.
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Now thousands of armchair critics can stop pretending that they know anything about football and return to pretending to know about epidemiology and virology for the next 18 months.
And I can get back to winding my other half up by pretending to know even less about cricket, rugby league and cycling than I actually do. ;D
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We've got a broad selection of Olympic sports to be armchair critics of before normal service can resume.
Ha! I'd almost forgotten about that. I look forward to everyone suddenly caring about rowing, sailing and anything else we manage to scrape up a few gongs for. Now thousands of armchair critics can stop pretending that they know anything about football and return to pretending to know about epidemiology and virology for the next 18 months.
And I can get back to winding my other half up by pretending to know even less about cricket, rugby league and cycling than I actually do. ;D
The difference between 100 and a 5 day test eh, rivetting.
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One benefit of losing is that it has brought the reason the team have been taking the knee into bright focus, and show how far we have to go before we eradicate the scourge that is racism in this country. Some of the stuff on social media has been shocking and vile.
Although Italy were by far the better team in the 2nd half, they were very rattled for most of the 1st, and even when dominant had few proper clear cut chances. My only criticism would have been that once 4 of the Italians were on yellow cards, that would have been a good time to bring on another attacking player and switch to a back 4. It was all a bit too little too late but conservatism made us hard to beat and got us to the final so....
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Overheard in a garden center (of all places) today..
"Well,, don't mention the war"
.. presumably some sort of random Faulty Towers reference..
"aye - my son went for an Italian on Friday and they poisoned them!, Got food poisoning! cause they were England Fans".
FFS - :no:
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My only criticism would have been that once 4 of the Italians were on yellow cards,
One of which would have got a red in other matches. Blatant, dangerous and uncalled for.
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But equally if that ref had been in charge of the semi a lot of the free kicks won and likely the penalty may been waved away as dives and the result might have been different.
:devangel:
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My only criticism would have been that once 4 of the Italians were on yellow cards,
One of which would have got a red in other matches. Blatant, dangerous and uncalled for.
I guess you mean the pulling on the neck of the shirt? I don't think that deserves a red. It's a blatant foul and gets carded, but it's not dangerous (or not any more than any other number of things that don't even get a yellow) so it's a yellow for me. Fouls also don't get worse because someone does em on purpose either.
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It was a long way out but wasn't he last man, so technically could have been interpreted as red by a really officious stickler.
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This ^
Clearly my view from the armchair.
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My only criticism would have been that once 4 of the Italians were on yellow cards,
One of which would have got a red in other matches. Blatant, dangerous and uncalled for.
I guess you mean the pulling on the neck of the shirt? I don't think that deserves a red. It's a blatant foul and gets carded, but it's not dangerous (or not any more than any other number of things that don't even get a yellow) so it's a yellow for me. Fouls also don't get worse because someone does em on purpose either.
The studs into grealish by jorginho was a straight red, no doubt about it. Not that it would've mattered as he missed his pen. I thought the shirt tug was extremely cynical but probably only yellow given how far out he was. Hardly a clear cut goal scoring chance.
Interesting to know what Southgate does next. There's no doubt we were the better team for the first half hour, but do they need more of a Liverpool of a couple of seasons ago approach, where they go hell for leather for the first half hour, score at least 2 or 3,and then sit back. It definitely feels like a more attacking minded midfield is necessary. I thought rice and Phillips were incredible, but they didn't seem to be quite as attacking minded as the all time greats (pirlo etc).
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The fouled player’s got to be through on goal for shirtpulling to be a straight red. It was some serious slapstick shit but Chiellini knew he’d be fine that far out with two or three defenders back in the centre of the pitch.
Like Ged I assumed Chris meant the Jorghino thigh-tread on Grealish. The conservative use of VAR in these Euros has been praised but in the Premier League the ref would have been “sent to the monitor” after giving a yellow for that. Ampadu & that Swiss bloke both walked for lesser studs-based fouls in this tournament.
It definitely feels like a more attacking minded midfield is necessary. I thought rice and Phillips were incredible, but they didn't seem to be quite as attacking minded as the all time greats
:agree: A lot of the most promising English players are still very young and Southgate is open-minded and growth-orientated so I’ve hope this side can evolve further.
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Wilson also walked for a foul that was almost identical to one of Verratti's many cynical fouls; for which Veratti wasn't even booked.
The amount of cynical fouling and diving is the main reason for me losing interest in football over the years. "Good fouls" are one of the most effective methods of defence to stop any attack that has decent momentum. I would rather see every one of these intentional fouls where there was no attempt to play the ball punished with a red card or a yellow card with a sin-bin. Instead, nearly all of them are punished with at most a yellow card, but a handful of them per season (such as Wilson's) get a red despite no difference in severity.
The use of VAR across the tournament was awful. There is no consistency when the default is to only overturn the most egregious of refereeing errors. If VAR is to have any value, 2 identical plays have to result in 2 identical decisions.
Rugby is such a great example of how to use technology to try and reach consistently correct decisions and inform the fans of how the referees made those decisions. But football insists on a rubbish hybrid that achieves no consistency and doesn't inform players of how the referees reach their decision, leaving fans feeling unneccessarily angry.
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People always say this but tbh I thought the refereeing in the final was fantastic, I loved what that ref was doing. Crack on and keep playing.
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I agree, generally fantastic fluid refereeing, allowing play to continue and allow advantage instead of stop start bullshit. One of the highest quality tournaments in modern times for attacking, positive play and for the officiating allowing this, I thought.
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watch out for the specks of dust getting in your eyes...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/57805083
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Call that dusty...
https://www.theplayerstribune.com/articles/raheem-sterling-england-it-was-all-a-dream
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I agree, generally fantastic fluid refereeing, allowing play to continue and allow advantage instead of stop start bullshit. One of the highest quality tournaments in modern times for attacking, positive play and for the officiating allowing this, I thought.
I agree that the use of advantage and letting the games flow was generally good.
But of the games that I watched (about 4 live, plus highlights of a few more), the referees got a large number of the major decisions (goal/no goal, penalties and red cards) wrong.
These mistakes can decide games. With the technology they have available, this number of mistakes shouldn't happen.
Maybe I just happened to watch the games where the referees and VAR performed poorly on the major decisions.
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How did they get goal/no goal wrong? That's just a buzz on their watch isn't it?
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I meant as in whether or not a goal should have been disallowed due to fouls etc in build up, not whether it had crossed the line.
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How did they get goal/no goal wrong? That's just a buzz on their watch isn't it?
not in this competition but t has happened-
Sheffield United’s “ghost goal” against Aston Villa a couple of seasons ago, when it clearly crossed the line but the watch didn’t buzz. VAR didn’t over rule. Finished 0-0 and that point may have kept Villa up that season. Some Sheffield United fans are still bitter about it ...
I’ll post my thoughts on the Euros when I’ve fully recovered :wavecry:
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How did they get goal/no goal wrong? That's just a buzz on their watch isn't it?
not in this competition but t has happened-
Sheffield United’s “ghost goal” against Aston Villa a couple of seasons ago, when it clearly crossed the line but the watch didn’t buzz. VAR didn’t over rule. Finished 0-0 and that point may have kept Villa up that season. Some Sheffield United fans are still bitter about it ...
I’ll post my thoughts on the Euros when I’ve fully recovered :wavecry:
This one is
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https://www.worcesternews.co.uk/news/19436757.worcester-dad-says-twitter-account-hacked-racist-football-tweet/
Uh-huh. sure mate
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https://www.worcesternews.co.uk/news/19436757.worcester-dad-says-twitter-account-hacked-racist-football-tweet/
Uh-huh. sure mate
Same defence as the Manchester estate agent.
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I know, amazing coincidence. Someone hacks your account purely to make a racist comment.
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Usual Pie vitriol .. but kinda sums up my feelings.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EI5nw1kYwdo
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Very cathartic viewing.
I can just imagine Rashford trying to calm himself for his penalty. And yet, thoughts of children not getting school dinners keep creeping in. He starts his run up and tear wells in his eye, his vision obscured. And the rest, as they say, is history.
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Do we rename this thread, or start a new one?
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Bit premature. Can't see them getting past the quarters.
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I meant as a Euros discussion thread in general. Agree they are not looking that great.
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Keeps picking best players, instead of playing players in their best positions.
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I for one am sickened by the tedious entitlement shown by what seems to be the majority of the fanbase. Southgate probably feels compelled to pick certain players because when in their corruptly state sponsored teams they are called world class and the fans scream blue murder if they aren't included.
He then has to meld them into a cohesive whole, knowing he cannot hope to replicate the honed precision they work within when playing for City and the rest, so instead he keeps it basic and tries to create a team ethos and at least some sense of respectability.
There seems something almost sinister in the way he has since been targeted for failing to win, despite being objectively extremely successful as a national manager. I'm sure it can't be related to him being overly woke or anything...
Tl:dr most England fans appear to be shrieking pant wetting pricks.
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I for one am sickened by the tedious entitlement shown by what seems to be the majority of the fanbase. Southgate probably feels compelled to pick certain players because when in their corruptly state sponsored teams they are called world class and the fans scream blue murder if they aren't included.
He then has to meld them into a cohesive whole, knowing he cannot hope to replicate the honed precision they work within when playing for City and the rest, so instead he keeps it basic and tries to create a team ethos and at least some sense of respectability.
Is this different from any other national team manager? Or is it that you think English players value is artificially inflated, as they have the most expensive squad on paper. I'm not a football guy, so interested what the difference is.
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I for one am sickened by the tedious entitlement shown by what seems to be the majority of the fanbase. Southgate probably feels compelled to pick certain players because when in their corruptly state sponsored teams they are called world class and the fans scream blue murder if they aren't included.
He then has to meld them into a cohesive whole, knowing he cannot hope to replicate the honed precision they work within when playing for City and the rest, so instead he keeps it basic and tries to create a team ethos and at least some sense of respectability.
There seems something almost sinister in the way he has since been targeted for failing to win, despite being objectively extremely successful as a national manager. I'm sure it can't be related to him being overly woke or anything...
Tl:dr most England fans appear to be shrieking pant wetting pricks.
Just the odd generalisation/ sweeping statement there damn
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I dunno danm. They have been extremely bad so far this tournament. I rate Southgate hugely but i do wonder if this is a tournament too far for him. I'm no football expert but good judges whose opinions I respect were flabbergasted at eg. him saying we missed Kalvin Phillips, who hasn't been selectable for over a year now. The planning for this tournament feels very slapdash (no left back, no working midfield) and I think criticising that is very fair. The players have copped their fair share as well, Kane especially.
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Look it's coming home, alright?
It's coming home... :'(
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I think both are true really. England have not played as well as they could/should. However as always the expectations on them are totally wild. The commentators and pundits are being really critical I think. Tournament football is really hard. The cost of playing very expansive exciting football is high if you get it wrong. Easy to lose a cheeky goal and hard to blow teams totally away at this level. I’m struggling to think of a single team that has looked totally dominant in all their group games. Maybe Spain. Germany as always look dangerous.
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It’s boring and underwhelming watching the England games but seriously painful listening to the moaning of the in-match commentary. I was pleased when Kane and Rice hinted at the fact that all the pundits slagging them off played in England sides that didn’t win anything either. Shearer and Lineker were at least at nearly-succesful tournaments- the way Lee Dixon talks you’d think the culmination of his England career was against Germany in 1966 rather than San Marino in 1993.
This Slovakia match feels 50/50 between crashing out with a whimper, Southgate’s-head-on-a-stick-type outrage or convincing victory, get-behind-our-brave-boys-type hubris and for the first time in my life I feel like I’d prefer the first so I can enjoy the rest of the Euros more as a neutral- England are so obviously in the proverbial “bad moment” at this tournament but I can’t find it in me to hold it against players or manager after the last couple.
Southgate’s era has obviously just run its course and so many things have to come together at exactly the right time for an international tournament that I can’t feel anything stronger than “oh well, not our year this time”.
Seeing England actually be brilliant and near-formidable cleared my mind of all the frustration of them being crap underachievers for so long that it doesn’t really annoy me any more. Obviously the feeling of the general England fan population is different but I can’t relate to it.
On a basic boring level it’s obviously the compromises caused by trying to work around the lack of options at left back and defensive midfield that have done for England in this tournament, that and stalwart Southgate-era players having gone off the boil to the extent that they’re unpickable. But it’s the little knock-on effects of those things and the club-level factors with the individual players that kind of spiral round and create the dysfunction. Similar to how so many little things all add up to everything going right against all odds, like when Greece won Euro 2004. It’s fascinating really. I always feel like so much of what makes teams work is basic mad little interpersonal shit that we have no idea about.
The most interesting thing about this tournament in general for me so far is how few of the big nations have “turned up” and how few heroes have been performing to their expected level- at this rate the golden boot winner will have three or four goals! Only Spain look 100% scary. :popcorn:
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If football teams were publicly-listed companies I'd 100% be buying England right now. Very undervalued, large upside potential, minimum downside remaining, sound management, good fundamentals. Semi-finals my prediction.
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They're 7/2 favourites to reach the semis so you're not alone.
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I mean it's not exciting and they could be playing better but they did top their group. Like, they literally could not be in a better position.
Honestly all the constant whinging is boring and also England fans/pundits seem almost psychotic at times
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I think I read one too many Reddit posts to be fair, and my piss well and truly boiled. It sounds like my general sentiment is agreed with though, too much whinging from fans/pundits and not enough supporting the team.
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I am fascinated by the fact with have three of the best forwards in their respective leagues in Kane, Bellingham and Foden, but seem to be unable to get a decent performance out of any of them.
To quote Barney Ronay in the Guardian (and ensure my centerist dad status is maintained...)
Square pegs in round holes is a problem we keep hearing. But why are the pegs so square?
https://www.theguardian.com/football/article/2024/jun/27/austria-are-everything-england-are-not-and-never-have-been-euro-2024
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Cesc Fabregas was saying similar to be fair, so its not just the preserve of smug gits like Ronay (decent article though). Foden should be capable of doing more than one thing, of playing in more than one way.
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Wow that was painful. I was almost a bit gutted when Bellingham scored as I couldn't be arsed with another 30 mins. But hopefully the players can get a boost from turning that around and start playing a bit more positively in the next game. Mainoo looks good in midfield and Palmer and Toney gave something different when they came on.
Now will Southgate realise his starting line up doesn't work and make changes for the next match?
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My heart can do without that kind of thing. Talk about making it hard for yourselves.
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Shocking apart from 5 minutes where we scored twice. But hey, we're through. Hoping the siege mentality in the squad starts to bear dividends soon. Going to be interesting to see how we set up next weekend with Guehi unfortunately suspended (that ref was shit). I was also impressed with Toney. But Southgate got out of jail there in a big way. Not making substitutions in the second half was inexplicable; it worked out it the end but we shouldn't have been reliant on an absolute worldie of a goal in the 95th minute.
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Now will Southgate realise his starting line up doesn't work and make changes for the next match?
No.
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Shocking apart from 5 minutes where we scored twice. But hey, we're through. Hoping the siege mentality in the squad starts to bear dividends soon. Going to be interesting to see how we set up next weekend with Guehi unfortunately suspended (that ref was shit). I was also impressed with Toney. But Southgate got out of jail there in a big way. Not making substitutions in the second half was inexplicable; it worked out it the end but we shouldn't have been reliant on an absolute worldie of a goal in the 95th minute.
I am pretty impressed with the mentality that goes, "I've been s**t this entire tournament bar the first 30 minutes of the first match and this is our last chance to score, I'll have a crack at a flying volley". Lovely stuff.
Can't see them beating the Swiss but at 95 minuites in I couldn't;'t see them beating Slovakia so......
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I am pretty impressed with the mentality that goes, "I've been s**t this entire tournament bar the first 30 minutes of the first match and this is our last chance to score, I'll have a crack at a flying volley". Lovely stuff.
He’s learnt so well in his short time at the Bernabeu! If that had been a Real Madrid Champions League tie it’s not hard to imagine the pundits gushing about how they “always find a way to win”, “don’t know when they’re beaten” etc. I guess it’s easier to do that about a glamorous side you’re not invested in and who often go on to win the whole tournament.
I think a more accurate comparison for this England is the modern day Man United- a squad packed with expensive talent, all underperforming to a baffling extent, never seeming like they’re having fun and shrugging/ shouting at each other all the time, management with no idea of their best 11, making heavy weather of unentertaining draws against clearly inferior sides, but spawning results in the dying stages of matches they’ve been outplayed in and (hopefully) finishing seasons improbably well due to raising their game against good teams and getting extremely kind draws in cup competitions.
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I find the level of punditry and discourse in general sadly lacking when it comes to England and football. Lots of know it alls talking about who should play, and how the manager is so crap. And yet, I haven't heard a single attempt to examine why we are one of the best teams in modern times when it comes to the qualification process, but sub-par when it comes to the finals, particularly the knock out stages. Why this dichotomy? Could it be the hysterical pressure and expectation, or is it something else? Then there is the reporting, witless and no different to a pissed up mate detailing their emotional response to the match. Nothing of value to be learned there if you want insight rather than some tedious bore's opinion - I'll pass thanks. Four Four Two is about the only commentary that's made me think about what's happening, or not, for England and why. Anyone else feel this way?
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Cheque is not “raising your game against good teams” the same as warming up on that route a few grades below to it limit and climbing like a bit of a muppet, then getting on the route you want to do near your limit and it all clicking and you climb well?
It does seem crazy we haven’t won anything in essentially forever, but hating on the team right now isn’t the best time for it, imagine if you fell off that big onsight/redpoint and everyone just said how shit you were and that you had completely the wrong shoes? Don’t think it would help performance tbh
It was a hard match to watch but at the end of the day we won before penalties and didn’t give up even when it seemed lost. I’m sure the team are pretty proud of that.
Edit: I’m no expert on football
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I think it's more likely you're just a very discerning reader Dan, who clearly knows a lot about the sport. I think the same about mainstream reporting on England cricket but there's not a lot you can do. I don't think it's reasonable to expect the BBC match report to get stuck into strategy and tactics in the manner four four two would.
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I find the level of punditry and discourse in general sadly lacking when it comes to England and football. Lots of know it alls talking about who should play, and how the manager is so crap. And yet, I haven't heard a single attempt to examine why we are one of the best teams in modern times when it comes to the qualification process, but sub-par when it comes to the finals, particularly the knock out stages. Why this dichotomy?
Because tv/radio pundits aren't employed to offer intelligent nuanced content? They're employed (even if perhaps they don't realise it) to be 'interesting to the average watcher or listener', read: to troll. I think football punditry in the UK moved towards trolling for attention when R5's 606 programme changed, a few years ago, from a relatively 'normal' post-match analysis programme into a format of curated hysterical bickering between the idiot presenters and their baited audience.
It's the relentless march of the idiots.
Nothing of value to be learned there if you want insight rather than some tedious bore's opinion
Exactly. All that really matters is the result and your own opinion.
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I think football punditry in the UK moved towards trolling for attention when R5's 606 programme changed, a few years ago, from a relatively 'normal' post-match analysis programme into a format of curated hysterical bickering between the idiot presenters and their baited audience.
It's the relentless march of the idiots.
I'd agree here. If you think 606 is bad, you should hear TalkSport! Although I wouldn't solely criticize football/sport analysis here, it seems to be a reflection of political talk radio being utter shite, both BBC and commercial - eg Jeremy Vine / all of LBC.
Monday Night Club on R5 usually a bit better - Rory Smith is one of the better sports journalists on these types of programmes.
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Labour gov so England to now win Euros obvs
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England (men) winning something for the first time since Harold Macmillan was prime minister; and the attendant (even greater) saturation coverage of football in the media and (even greater) expectation of future success is, to me, a price worth paying for a Labour government.
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Well well.
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Let us remember the prophetic words of Mark E. Smith :
"And the Dutch
are weeping
In four languages
AT LEAST "
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I'm not a massive football fan, but watched the game and will watch the final.
Spain are clearly the favourites, but fingers crossed 🤞