UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => shootin' the shit => Topic started by: gardinrm on July 21, 2019, 06:41:13 pm
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For work/family/age reasons, over the last few years I've been climbing more and more at the gym and I've noticed a gradual rise in popularity. This is partly why we have such good new bouldering gyms and in general I'm very happy to see the wall full of people.
However, with this increase in new people I now see things I've never seen before. From the hilarious (like the over shoulder chalk bag) to those things less enjoyable. This all came to a head yesterday when two lads with super tiny/tight shorts and tops off were climbing and taking DSLR photos of each other. These guys were definitely not climbers, more weight lifting types and spent the whole trip strutting/posing and looking who was watching. I was content to ignore them at first, but they kept appearing wherever I went. They barely tried anything and they were clearly not there to climb. Perhaps I'm being snob? But I didn't like the macho strutting. It felt quite aggressive really. Is it just me?
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You've got to ignore it or it will eat you up inside.
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Fiend May smite me for this (going by one of his recent Hangar rants) but I don’t like the whole tops off thing at a wall.
Fine in relative solitude at a Crag but inside for me non.
Some people definitely do it to show off rather than for comfort. A singlet/vest won’t make you any warmer Shirley?
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I once was joined at the bouldering area of my local wall by two yoofs playing loud tunes on their phones despite background music already playing. The resulting jangle of melodies did little to improve my psyche :look:
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TT. I am disappointed. Yes a vest definitely makes you a lot warmer if you already have high body heat / sweatiness. If going topless is associated with any posey showy behaviour, that's what should be tackled, not the attire.
Playing Oasis at the wall is totally unacceptable by the wall staff. Instant 50% drop in grade and 100% increase in nausea.
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Well this was mercifully quick to find:
http://fiendophobia.blogspot.com/2016/06/climbers-with-tops-off-at-indoors-wall.html?m=1
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If folk stopped calling them climbing gyms and referred to them as climbing walls it might go some way to stop the twattish behaviour.
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TT. I am disappointed. Yes a vest definitely makes you a lot warmer if you already have high body heat / sweatiness. If going topless is associated with any posey showy behaviour, that's what should be tackled, not the attire.
:D Yes indeed. Probably easier for a wall to have a 'no tops off' rule than a 'no wankers' rule though :)
How would you feel about Liam Gallagaer bouldering without a top on?
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Well this was mercifully quick to find:
http://fiendophobia.blogspot.com/2016/06/climbers-with-tops-off-at-indoors-wall.html?m=1
Brilliant
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Fiend May smite me for this (going by one of his recent Hangar rants) but I don’t like the whole tops off thing at a wall.
Do you wear one of those Victorian style all in one numbers when you go to the beach or the swimming pool Tom? ;D
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Well this was mercifully quick to find:
http://fiendophobia.blogspot.com/2016/06/climbers-with-tops-off-at-indoors-wall.html?m=1
Slack line would have approved of your linking skills there 😃
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TT. I am disappointed. Yes a vest definitely makes you a lot warmer if you already have high body heat / sweatiness. If going topless is associated with any posey showy behaviour, that's what should be tackled, not the attire.
Playing Oasis at the wall is totally unacceptable by the wall staff. Instant 50% drop in grade and 100% increase in nausea.
My staff are all under 25.
I have had to ban the playing of Queen, ffs!
Another one was biting the friggin dust, every time I walked in.
Then some 13 year old, mini Wad (12.5 kg, in his socks) complained that we don’t play enough “Show tunes”.
I switched the playlist to The Disturbed/Rage Against the Machine combo, changed the password and left.
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Well this was mercifully quick to find:
http://fiendophobia.blogspot.com/2016/06/climbers-with-tops-off-at-indoors-wall.html?m=1
Actually...
On the girls with tops off thing.
This actually happened (or at least, nearly) to me a couple of weeks back.
My place really is a climbing gym, in as much as fully 30+% of the place is given over to training area, incidentally.
Anyway, went into the training room to chat to a young lass, who’d recently had an awful fall (serious head injuries, shattered pelvis, numerous soft tissue twatting and absolutely black and blue from head to toe, extended hospital stay and bed rest), who’d come in with boyfriend, to watch him train, while she was still hobbling.
She’d stripped to her (very) skimpy bra and leggings and was cranking out the pull ups.
This was not a sports bra, it would have made an Ann Summers sales girl blush.
I had to catch myself from complaining/pointing out her attire. After all, there were plenty of lads completely topless in the building.
I hadn’t realised I had such a double standard.
But we all do.
No one died, complained or felt compelled to assault her. If there was any leering, it was done very surreptitiously.
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If there was any leering, it was done very surreptitiously by me.
Fixed that for you Matt.
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I suppose the 'tops off' thing is part of it and I'm not the biggest fan of this in general. When I'm at the wall I don't really have 'projects' that require optimum conditions, it's not really the reason I'm there. Outside on a slopey gritstone masterpiece, I'll take my tighty whiteys off if it'll help....
It's more the ethos of going climbing because instafacewitter might like it. Whats wrong with an old pair of nylon football shorts and that large t-shirt your gran bought you when you were 15? The one with the wolf on it.
And the music thing... At curbar the other day some younger chaps were in the pit with the phones out playing lame rock (probably nickelback). Took us about an hour to pluck up the energy to join them. We climbed badly and felt angry...
(sigh, sup on some port and wriggle my toes in tartan slippers)
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My personal bugbears;
- Nobheads sitting in clumps on the mats in the fall zone. I try my best to land really close to them and say "that could have been a lot worse" and walk off. I am not a small guy and this usually has the desired effect.
- Nobheads leaving their phones on the mats. Action is as above but I'm finding it increasingly difficult to resist the temptation to actually land on their phone
- Nobheads in general
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People inflicting their music upon others in any situation bugs the fuck out of me anyways.
Be it phones/loud headphones on a train, boom box on the beach and god forbid anything at the crag. There's just such a level of arrogance about it. The idea that anyone gives a fuck about hearing your favorite band through some tinny shite speakers.
As for tops off, couldn't care less. Young dudes posing innit. Flexing their stuff to attract the opposite (or not) sex. I never ever ever check out the tight buns on some young blond twenty something cranking up something I've never had or never will have the power to get up.
Works both ways though. I was giggling my head off the other day in the works - some ripped dude was farting about on the rings and the slightly older woman sat near me as I was getting changed was soooo checking him out. Little superstitious glances every 5 seconds. Hilarious. I'd love to have been able to tune into her internal dialogue.
Biggie for me a the wall though is when you're having a little session on a problem, perhaps two or three of you, and someone, or even worse, 2 or 3 people just walk up and jump straight on it, no eye contact what so ever, no little comment along the lines of 'you on??' or 'mind if I have a quick go'.. just walk up, straight in front of you and pull on. Wonder if they're like that in all aspects of their life.
bah humbug.
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If folk stopped calling them climbing gyms and referred to them as climbing walls it might go some way to stop the twattish behaviour.
Indoor climbing training facilities! And ban anyone who uses them in their own right, rather than as a means to an end for outdoor climbing.
This is a good topic overall despite the initially perhaps misguided focus ;)
Gardin - the guys you mentioned do sound like laughable nobheads, and I can see where you're coming from (just like there is always some neanderthal twat campussing up a 5+ jugpull for "the bantz"). But on the other hand, were they actually impinging on your climbing and usage / enjoyment of the wall?? For me, that would be the main criteria - behaviour that Kingy and Fatneck mentioned. Or other stuff like hogging problems, jumping in when you're just about to start a well-timed attempt, going on a problem that crosses over something you've started, greasing repeatedly off holds and not brushing them etc etc...
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You've got to ignore it or it will eat you up inside.
:agree:
Just wait ‘til the Olympics and the wannabe speed climbers arrive. :popcorn:
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And the music thing... At curbar the other day some younger chaps were in the pit with the phones out playing lame rock (probably nickelback).
This is always out of order, anywhere.
Cheque: I almost puntered you for that (prescient) contribution. :chair:
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Jeeeeez... The demise of UKB could be put down to you lot becoming grumpy old men!
There were other people at Curbar that behave differently to me... There are other people using the climbing wall for different reasons than I do...
Do something different, invite the yoots out with you, embrace the banging choons, campus that 5+ with your top off, interact, share your wisdom.. Stop being so bloody miserable, it will indeed eat you up inside..
If you don’t want to deal with other people stay in your cellar and go climbing somewhere other than Curbar.
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Excellent post BtB.
Also, I now have a mental image of fatneck's avatar giving an iPhone and/or a group of kids the people's elbow, WWF style. Which is also excellent.
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Jeeeeez... The demise of UKB could be put down to you lot becoming grumpy old men!
There were other people at Curbar that behave differently to me... There are other people using the climbing wall for different reasons than I do...
Do something different, invite the yoots out with you, embrace the banging choons, campus that 5+ with your top off, interact, share your wisdom.. Stop being so bloody miserable, it will indeed eat you up inside..
If you don’t want to deal with other people stay in your cellar and go climbing somewhere other than Curbar.
Nahh - your wrong on the banging choons bit. :boxing:
All the rest - yeah, its non intrusive really, but toons at the crag is just being a selfish cunt really. Vast majority of people escape to the "great outdoors" for some peace, nature and an escape from modern life, soulful shit like that. It was like that when I was 18 and it still is now. If you must listen to 'banging choons' to get you up Early doors or whatever then wear some earbuds or stick to the climbing wall/gym/facility and go clubbing on a saturday night. Dont inflict it on others who might not want to share your taste in music but are given no choice.
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I reckon the wonderful thing about climbing is the sense of community and the fact that it is inter generational. I learnt off my elders because they were friends and they came climbing with us.
Playing banging choons at a busy crag is in no doubt pretty antisocial and inconsiderate. We’re all more receptive to learning and new ideas if we feel like we’re a part of something. Excluding and belittling will not have the desired effect, the opposite in fact. So come on grumpy old bouldering gits, embrace the new, paste on a smile, take some yoots under your wing, include them and then you can change the world to how you want it to be.
For the record I would struggle to not have fierce words with anyone playing fudging Nickleback anywhere. :chair:
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So come on grumpy old bouldering gits, embrace the new, paste on a smile, take some yoots under your wing, include them and then you can change the world to how you want it to be.
Helps to remind me of what I really am....
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At our local wall the CrossFit / bodybuilder types are remarkably docile. Their enormous tattoos of Spartan warriors / roaring lions / their (presumably recently deceased) dogs can be slightly off-putting, but apart from actively trying to pull the jugs out of the wall, they pose far less threat than the feral 7-10-year-olds whose parents are supervising them by sitting upstairs with sunglasses on their heads drinking coffee and pontificating on why their Audi Q7 is so uniquely suited to the challenges of driving around Tunbridge Wells.
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The background music at the wall is a tricky one as its impossible to please everyone. The Depot went through a horrendous phase a few months ago of 90's depressed teenager emo rock which was fucking dreadful and resulted in a total psych vacuum for me. I asked them to change it once and felt like a total dick as its clearly a matter of personal taste...it got changed though :dance1:
Personal music played out loud is a social crime as SamT has articulated far better than me. the worst example I've seen was some bloke on the train playing facebook videos on his phone at full volume, most of which were offensive in some shape or form.
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When the Depot opened in Nottingham it had a playlist that looped every couple of hours like in a shop which was a mixture of middle-of-the-road sort of stuff, mostly inoffensive and upbeat but Adele’s Rolling in the Deep (shudder) was one of the tracks. I was doing a lot of circuit board training at the time and I’d try and time the burns so I’d avoid that as it would put me on a whitey that affected my ability to cling on while pumped.
In a similar vein (massively off topic now) a Turkish kebab place once cranked Coldplay’s Yellow at full volume in protest at us climbing on the crag opposite their shop. :lol:
I like the music in the Foundry but it’s amazing how often they play Witness the Fitness- I swear I’ve heard it three times in a visit before. Someone should tell Roots Manuva about this- I can picture him doing a video where he’s performing in the café as a bunch of nonplussed Mums & Dads pick their kids up.
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I like the music in the Foundry but it’s amazing how often they play Witness the Fitness- I swear I’ve heard it three times in a visit before. Someone should tell Roots Manuva about this- I can picture him doing a video where he’s performing in the café as a bunch of nonplussed Mums & Dads pick their kids up.
Swigging that beetroot juice, so our AnCap boost...
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Interesting discussion guys, some of the posts feel like they are pasted directly from the other channel though!
I will admit that I am a pretty bad offender for the music thing at my local wall, but in my defense, it is a small university wall which has no sound system, so the choice is either silence and grunting or the Stick It sound track on loop. I even subjected about 10 people (the place was packed) to 90 minutes of deep techno the other day ;D
At the crag though, no chance, I tend to nap between attempts.
Anyone who has seen my instagram will know I am a shameless advocate of shirtless climbing at the wall :guilty: A small, lightless, airless ex-squash court quickly turns into the warmest place in the known universe after a second or third person turns up. Having said this, I do tend to get a little self-conscious when people I don't know well are climbing, so will put my shirt back on when this is the case.
Good thread!
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I reckon the wonderful thing about climbing is the sense of community and the fact that it is inter generational. I learnt off my elders because they were friends and they came climbing with us.
:agree: Totally agree with this, it was exactly the same for me. I was well and truly 'mansplained' and all the better for it. This included positive advice about climbing (technique, equipment, beta etc) but I was also advised what wasn't acceptable (like climbing with dirty boots, not brushing holds, not waiting my turn to climb, not flashing something other guys are struggling with etc etc). Better than grumping about it for sure. :icon_beerchug:
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I was also advised what wasn't acceptable (like climbing with dirty boots, not brushing holds, not waiting my turn to climb, not flashing something other guys are struggling with etc etc).
Yes, I also think that it's unacceptable not to flash problems in other people's face! Especially if they are struggling on them!
;)
Freudian lapsus, maybe?
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I was also advised what wasn't acceptable (like climbing with dirty boots, not brushing holds, not waiting my turn to climb, not flashing something other guys are struggling with etc etc).
Yes, I also think that it's unacceptable not to flash problems in other people's face!
Next you'll be saying it's unacceptable to do this when the struggler is with his new girlfriend who he's brought along to the wall for the first time?
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I was also advised what wasn't acceptable (like climbing with dirty boots, not brushing holds, not waiting my turn to climb, not flashing something other guys are struggling with etc etc).
Yes, I also think that it's unacceptable not to flash problems in other people's face! Especially if they are struggling on them!
;)
Freudian lapsus, maybe?
Was working Joe's arete with some others a while back, and casually mentioned it could be done one-handed. A dude within earshot then proceeds to demonstrate it.
I think he was more embarrassed by his behaviour than we were ::)
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As someone whose internal temperature is higher than average, tops off climbing for me is always down to heat. When I was in London on some of the most badly ventilated walls on the planet, it was tops off for 9 months of the year...
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There's a guy at the Depot who arrives and takes his t-shirt off instantly, no matter what the weather, unless it's really cold!
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For me the new 'mega wall' set ups (for me things like the Manc Depot) have so much wallspace that if there are a bunch of knobs hanging about in one area - its easy to find another area where you can be grumpy in your own company. Unless some wankers leading a group stretching session under the woody... :D
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It's polite to say "Some of those [colour of choice] are quite funky for the grade" after an embarrassing flash. Sufficiently vague for any take away. But the entire acreage of circuit board is mine if I've got a timer running and a serious face on ::)
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The tops off ban in gyms used to be a serious problem for me.
Luckily now I rarely leave my board, so it's a non issue, but on the rare occasions in which I do, I always regret it.
I do not sweat much, but I produce a lot of heat: at my home board, with window open and only me training, it's common to raise the temp by one or two degrees. Imagine in a gym with no air con or with bad ventilation. It's a true pain in the a** and it makes for a very unpleasant session for me.
On the other hand, my board, my rules. The fans and air conditioner are on even in winter, and you have to take your top off.
On top of that (you see what I did there?) it is unacceptable to heel hook, to use the handholds for the feet, to skip defined sequences and to pretend you're having fun.
;)
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Surely there's no matching and no thumbs either?
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Since I started wearing baggy tee shirts (and running shorts) a few years back I now find it more uncomfortable being topless during a sweaty session. The sticky, topless, skin on skin action usually makes me feel far sweatier than the additional layer of a loose tee.
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it is unacceptable ... to use the handholds for the feet
Some of the best problems on my old board had feet must follow hand rules.
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There's a guy at the Depot who arrives and takes his t-shirt off instantly, no matter what the weather, unless it's really cold!
Turnip?
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<posted in wrong thread>
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Surely there's no matching and no thumbs either?
No matching unless specifically stated.
If you refer to the famous "French thumb" in the bolt hole, I don't think that I have any suitable hold for that - disgusting - practice. That would probably see you banned from the board and sent to the kitchen to prepare protein shakes for everyone.
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the famous "French thumb" in the bolt hole
Haha. Love this. Never heard it called that before.
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Along with French thumb, I've spotted people using the hold bolt hole as a mono (not cricket), or even using vacant bolt holes (normally on the slab) as intermediate monos (even more not cricket!)...
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Along with French thumb, I've spotted people using the hold bolt hole as a mono (not cricket), or even using vacant bolt holes (normally on the slab) as intermediate monos (even more not cricket!)...
Honestly, if anything you do do, whilst climbing, is cricket, you are a little confused.
Please collect your silly little ball and haul your white trousers out of my wall.
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There's a guy at the Depot who arrives and takes his t-shirt off instantly, no matter what the weather, unless it's really cold!
Turnip?
No, usually he wears a vest for at least a few minutes, before complaining about his balls being sweaty.
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Was working Joe's arete with some others a while back, and casually mentioned it could be done one-handed. A dude within earshot then proceeds to demonstrate it.
Bit slow but any excuse:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pkl3ptG_Xs
Chapeau.
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Indoor climbing training facilities! And ban anyone who uses them in their own right, rather than as a means to an end for outdoor climbing.
If we did this I suspect we would have to substantially increase prices :-)
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Indoor climbing training facilities! And ban anyone who uses them in their own right, rather than as a means to an end for outdoor climbing.
If we did this I suspect we would have to substantially increase prices :-)
But think of the savings as you wouldnt have to bother cleaning... ;)
if you already do.... :D
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Since I started wearing baggy tee shirts (and running shorts) a few years back.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_7g_Zwx9Mak
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Since I started wearing baggy tee shirts (and running shorts) a few years back I now find it more uncomfortable being topless during a sweaty session. The sticky, topless, skin on skin action usually makes me feel far sweatier than the additional layer of a loose tee.
I have no problem visually with tops off at a wall but some other wall users do and owners need to think about the balance in that, especially in terms of improving diversity. When there are tops-off en masse indoors, especially in weather like we have now, it can be disgusting at times as it can make the place stink (albeit often the deodorant deterrent is worse in my view) : some just don't realise they need a shower first before climbing (to be kind to other users) and because sweat is always dripping onto the mats and festering, instead of being soaked up in clothing (and most of the stink removed later in their washing machine) .
I do have a weird vivid memory of the first time someone asked me "who is that tosser ?" at a wall ....an alliterative tribute to an ex UKB regular who was defo tops-off posing.
There are quite a few sport scientists who think the right clothing can really improve evaporative sweat cooling in hot weather (more so than bare skin).... so when Fiend insists that climbing topless works in keeping the boulderer cooler he is wrong ... its a complicated story as a minimum and that it works for him is probably more a placebo effect (and/or having the wrong clothing).
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Terribly sorry Offwidth but I might go on decades of actual personal experience and reality of wearing t-shirts and vests of varying skimpiness and bare skin where needed and not some hypothetical thoughts of a few sports scientists who MIGHT think this that or the fucking other. FWIW I didn't spend hours trawling the internet to buy Napalm Death, Cattle Decapitation, Devourment and Gorgoroth vests for nothing and always start my session with a vest on until I take it off if - invariably - needed. And no I'm not going to spend hundreds of quid on a fucking Arcteryx ultra-wicking hyper-light absorvative base-layer vest so I can look like even more of a bellend.
As for other users getting visually offended I refer to my blog post above to the vast amount of grips they need to get. FWIW sweating into my clothing is definitely smellier than sweating with less clothing on unless sports scientists are going to pull some mights and maybes out of their arses about that too. Talking of arses any naturally manly smells would be completely overwhelmed by what comes out of mine so the point is moot anyway.
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I don't understand the thing about not flashing things that other people are working on. If there's people trying a blue or a black or whatever at the depot and I want to climb it because I'm warming up and it looks like a good problem then why shouldn't I nip in while nobody's on it and climb it?
If I'm trying a yellow or a purple and somebody flashes it then that's fine by me. They're better than me.
I suspect it says more about the insecurity of them than it says about me.
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Terribly sorry Offwidth but I might go on decades of actual personal experience and reality of wearing t-shirts and vests of varying skimpiness and bare skin where needed and not some hypothetical thoughts of a few sports scientists who MIGHT think this that or the fucking other.
"People in this country have had enough of experts" ;)
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There are quite a few sport scientists who think the right clothing can really improve evaporative sweat cooling in hot weather (more so than bare skin)....
I find this so hard to believe - it goes completely against common sense that wearing an extra layer (essentially a barrier) could increase how fast your sweat evaporates. I even spent the last fifteen minutes on google scholar but couldn't find anything remotely informative. Care to link to anything?
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"People in this country have had enough of experts" ;)
Sorry, it just reeked of that UKC style nonsense where someone produces a link to an obscure scientific paper apparently proving that "chalked hands don't offer any better friction than wet hands" and when you trawl through the gobbledegook inside it's all done in strict lab conditions with climbers who have been inbred over generations to not have sweat glands and then have their fingers bathed in bleach before the test which involves holding arbitrary angles on holds made out of marble, glass, or cheesegraters, all taken place in a vacuum and has about as much relevance to the real world as gardin's original preening instatwats have to real climbing.
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"People in this country have had enough of experts" ;)
Sorry, it just reeked of that UKC style nonsense where someone produces a link to an obscure scientific paper apparently proving that "chalked hands don't offer any better friction than wet hands" and when you trawl through the gobbledegook inside it's all done in strict lab conditions with climbers who have been inbred over generations to not have sweat glands and then have their fingers bathed in bleach before the test which involves holding arbitrary angles on holds made out of marble, glass, or cheesegraters, all taken place in a vacuum and has about as much relevance to the real world as gardin's original preening instatwats have to real climbing.
F&#k me, you barsteward!
Me and the team (Etienne and Alan) have been working on those protocols for years! They were secret, for frog’s sakke!
Last time we invite you as test subject, and you can return the Cheese-grater you borrowed too.
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As for other users getting visually offended I refer to my blog post above to the vast amount of grips they need to get.
I'm not sure that writing a blog post about it is going to suddenly make people not feel uncomfortable about it.
Do you genuinely not give a shit about that? I find it hard to grasp that anyone would really not give a shit that they are making people feel uncomfortable. It's all very well saying that you've spoken to several people at the wall who didnt seem to mind you climbing without a t shirt, but surely it's more about the people who you didn't speak to, who didn't want to speak to you?
In the interests of getting more of an equal gender balance in a sport that is traditionally a bit of a sausage fest, I think walls are totally doing the right thing by asking you to wear a top. And at the end of the day, if you don't like their rules, don't use their facilities.
Anyway, just think of all the extra gains you're making by the 0.000005% increase intensity you experience by having a sweatier body.
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You can put me in the most advanced scientific shirt/vest/crop top known or unknown to man and in this weather I'll have it saturated and dripping with sweat in no time.
My body is beautiful and if my beauty offends then I'm offensively beautiful. :-*
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Can everyone stop body shaming Fiend, please? I think he should be applauded for defying society's expectation of him to cover up.
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As for other users getting visually offended I refer to my blog post above to the vast amount of grips they need to get.
I'm not sure that writing a blog post about it is going to suddenly make people not feel uncomfortable about it.
Do you genuinely not give a shit about that? I find it hard to grasp that anyone would really not give a shit that they are making people feel uncomfortable. It's all very well saying that you've spoken to several people at the wall who didnt seem to mind you climbing without a t shirt, but surely it's more about the people who you didn't speak to, who didn't want to speak to you?
In the interests of getting more of an equal gender balance in a sport that is traditionally a bit of a sausage fest, I think walls are totally doing the right thing by asking you to wear a top. And at the end of the day, if you don't like their rules, don't use their facilities.
Anyway, just think of all the extra gains you're making by the 0.000005% increase intensity you experience by having a sweatier body.
I like climbing shirtless, though usually only do it when the wall is quiet.
Does it acctually make people uncomfortable? (other than TT - why does it make you feel uncomfortable btw?)
I mainly climb at the works and would say that there is never more than 5% of people there shirtless, and don't think I have ever noticed anyone posing or showing off.
I can understand people being put off by a bunch of nobhead posers, but can't understand how someone minding there own business without a shirt on could be seen as offensive.
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Another hillareous thread. Thank you folks. On the top less than thing. I'm 57 and if I'm too hot during exercise out doors I go top less. Yes done that climbing mountains in December. As many have said, it is simply more efficient than being too hot. Did that just last evening on a 6 mile jog around the clock hills and lanes. As for indoors, well modesty gets me there. Don't want some poor wee lass chucking her guts up at the sight of my wrinkled old skin, so the baggy T shirt stays on. Perfectly Happy with any one else.
As for the music question. I better keep classic FM to myself. :whistle:
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Unacceptable wall behaviour - people not washing their hands after using the toilet and then spreading their germs all over the holds.. drives my OCD side nuts, although probably no worse than handling loose change :geek:
Tops off - mixed feelings on this. When it's boiling like now then it's a no-brainer to go tops off. When it's mid-winter and there's that one guy it's spot the dickhead.
The most unacceptable behaviour is walls charging £9-10. License to print money. Bet Matt's house has taps made of Rhodium.
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The most unacceptable behaviour is walls charging £9-10. License to print money. Bet Matt's house has taps made of Rhodium.
To paraphrase a classic post....
Matt's house is a diamond mansion on the moon and he drinks a gallon of Cristal every hour from those taps (which he leaves running), pausing only to eat £50 note sandwiches.
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Unacceptable wall behaviour - people not washing their hands after using the toilet and then spreading their germs all over the holds.. drives my OCD side nuts, although probably no worse than handling loose change :geek:
Tops off - mixed feelings on this. When it's boiling like now then it's a no-brainer to go tops off. When it's mid-winter and there's that one guy it's spot the dickhead.
The most unacceptable behaviour is walls charging £9-10. License to print money. Bet Matt's house has taps made of Rhodium.
I wasn’t sure whether to reply to Pete’s crack, but actually it might be important. Because anyone thinking of opening a small wall should know what they’re getting in to. You don’t do this to get rich, if you are not in a major city.
We’re now well into our 7th year as a wall. We have made a loss every year since opening, and not “for tax purposes”. Last month we had to add capital, to cover a cash flow shortfall, caused by overdue invoices (and music license fees trebling this year). We only employ two part time staff. Polly and I rely on outside income, and neither of us draw a salary from the business. We take £400 a month in “Directors loan repayment” on our original investment (we didn’t borrow anything originally, so no loans to service).
I cover all sickness, holiday, extra staff needs and work 40hrs of shifts there per week (usually I put in 55-60hrs a week). I clean toilets, vacuum the building, wash windows, do the accounting, pay bills etc etc etc.
This month, we have had 5 days where we took no money at all and a further 6 where the takings didn’t cover wages, let alone wages and overheads. Summer sucks.
To add insult, now we’re competing against Venture capital, Corporate outfits, that are happy to run two years at a loss to undercut any local independents into liquidation.
We knew this before opening. I’ve been involved in building and running walls since the early 90’s. I’d hoped for a little more income and stronger customer base (because we had hopes of the local college becoming a fully fledged Uni) etc, but we’re a long way from our “worst case” planning. Our’s was a conscious decision to step off the treadmill and be free of our previous lives. We wanted something for both us and the kids to use and part of our lack of profit stems from constantly rebuilding, improving and generally adding to the place. A huge amount of my time is spent repairing things, from toilets to exercise machines and dishwashers.
But...
What we have is a hugely rewarding life, that is so much more fulfilling than my previous “Executive privilege” that was actually a gilded, small, cage. It’s worth it.
(https://i.ibb.co/V37cTRK/276-DB4-F1-6-DFB-4-C88-A9-F2-D5627540617-C.png)
(https://i.ibb.co/zHXNCTL/47-CAFE70-9-E27-49-BE-8-A89-653323-DBF312.png)
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Unacceptable wall behaviour - people not washing their hands after using the toilet and then spreading their germs all over the holds..
One of my pet hates is seeing someone walk straight out from a cubicle after taking a dump washing their hands. Usually having walked through a pool of piss while wearing their climbing shoes.
drives my OCD side nuts, although probably no worse than handling loose change :geek:
One of the benefits of having been essentially cash free since 2017.
Tops off - mixed feelings on this. When it's boiling like now then it's a no-brainer to go tops off. When it's mid-winter and there's that one guy it's spot the dickhead.
I envy all these people who get to train at a wall that isn't roasting in winter. Got to make sure the mothers don't catch a chill as they sip their lattes.
If we're lucky, there might be a few unseasonably cool days in spring or autumn where it isn't too hot. There is also a no tops off rule except on the boards. Makes anything slopey thoroughly unpleasant for large chunks of the year.
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And at the end of the day, if you don't like their rules, don't use their facilities.
God damn right, if any wall I went to banned tops off I wouldn't go again on principle.
Also, and perhaps this just shows what a knob I am, but I'm not really bothered about whether climbing is diverse or not. People can climb or not climb as they wish.. anyone care to convince me why I should care more? Plus, if people feel put off by tops off then what on earth will happen to them when they go to the crag; or for that matter when they go to a beach or swimming pool?
IMO, all summed up best by Yan many years ago with something along the lines of... "it's a climbing wall, not a golf course"
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Worth reiterating that different people get very differently affected by temperature and sweating. I've climbed with someone who couldn't climb on grit in winter because his hands got too cold - I was never once tempted to accuse him of making it up.
OTOH not washing hands after pissing is definitely unacceptable but it's amazing how many people still do it. I was at the services the other day watching a father and son walk out of the loos without washing their hands and was on the verge of blurting out "hey you're wiping your cock hands all over the door handles other people are using" . But didn't, just used my elbow to nudge the door open.
Even as someone who is rather sweaty and finds drying hands crucial, I still give mine two washes - one under the tap, one in liquid chalk. When TCA opened I did suggest that they have a dangling chalkball next to the hand driers, I still think this would be a good idea!!
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One of my pet hates is seeing someone walk straight out from a cubicle after taking a dump without washing their hands. Usually having walked through a pool of piss while wearing their climbing shoes.
What I meant to write...
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Not that I needed more proof, but this thread makes me even more proud of my mantra #neverleavemyboard
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The foil blanket at the Hangar in Liverpool is really upsetting; you can feel the heat increasing higher up the problems :shit:
I believe Fiend (perhaps it's mentioned in the preceding pages) called their bluff on the no-shirts rule and was asked to leave :-*
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One of my pet hates is seeing someone walk straight out from a cubicle after taking a dump without washing their hands. Usually having walked through a pool of piss while wearing their climbing shoes.
What I meant to write...
Yuck.
One of my local walls has a ‘lights out’ boulder comp/party - someone could go round shining a UV light on the holds showing which were the most covered in old faeces and urine stains 🤮
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Incidentally, our training room is entirely unheated and the windows at either end are open almost all year round. The bouldering room is heated to 14⁰C during the winter ( mainly because we were “raided” by HSE in our second year and given a written instruction that if we had staff manning that room, we had to maintain a minimum of 14⁰C, so not sure how other places cope).
We still got a 1* review this winter, because it was “entirely unheated”...
we’ve never had a tops on rule and only once had a complaint. It was an online review and after we responded, the poster both removed his review and I was banned from all our social media accounts for two years.
I’m only allowed to post under supervision now. In my defence, he was also quite abusive about the “child” who served him in reception, who was in fact a 22 year old woman, who just happened to be 4’8”...
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And at the end of the day, if you don't like their rules, don't use their facilities.
God damn right, if any wall I went to banned tops off I wouldn't go again on principle.
Also, and perhaps this just shows what a knob I am, but I'm not really bothered about whether climbing is diverse or not. People can climb or not climb as they wish.. anyone care to convince me why I should care more? Plus, if people feel put off by tops off then what on earth will happen to them when they go to the crag; or for that matter when they go to a beach or swimming pool?
IMO, all summed up best by Yan many years ago with something along the lines of... "it's a climbing wall, not a golf course"
I can't be arsed to have an argument with you about diversity, other than to say that if the lack of diversity is down to people being intimidated/made to feel uncomfortable by sweaty top less men, then that's a bit selfish on the part of the sweaty topless men.
but here's another way of looking at it. The wall I mainly use is the hangar in Plymouth. It's quite new, and a very good wall. It wouldn't be a viable business without appealing to the mass market. I.e. People who will come and use it as an alternative to the gym but have no interest in rock climbing. I can easily see how, when showing round a bunch of potential new customers, the sight of a bunch of sweaty blokes with their tits out on the comp wall might not be good for business. Not good business = no good training facilities being invested in, and less frequent and good route setting. I'm alright with keeping my top on if it means I've got a good wall. Maybe it's different in Sheffield where climbing is a lot more mainstream.
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P. S. I also don't buy the "but in a swimming pool" argument. Our social norms are varied and complex, but you'd be a bit wigged out if your GP did a consultation in speedos. Different situations her ally have different norms.
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Different situations her ally have different norms.
Yep, and I'd argue that tops off (and skimpy bra tops) on a hot day down the climbing wall is a social norm.
If I wasn't such a perv, I'd be at the front desk complaining about the likes of Puch posing and flaunting her way round in next to nothing lycra.
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Isn’t the social norms thing part of the point though? It has certainly been the norm for people to climb taps aff at the wall in hotter weather since I started climbing in 2000ish, and that had continued since, it’s not new. As such should people feel pressure to change their ‘normal’ behaviour in a given environment for the potential fear of offending some people?
Edit: beaten to it by SamT!
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I'm not a particular fan of tops off at the wall, since I do think it potentially intimidates new climbers. Especially if we are interested in increasing diversity within climbing.
I also don't like the 'if you don't like, climb somewhere else' argument. That is not a million miles away from the far right argument of 'love it or leave it'. Maybe, you think I am over-egging it, but if you are making someone feel really uncomfortable by climbing topless and you attitude is that is 'well that's what we've always done, if you don't like it piss off' then you are lacking a little in empathy.
I'm not saying you immediately need to put a top on but perhaps we should reflect on our behaviours as climbers and try to come to a common ground so everyone feels comfortable sharing the sport we all love.
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… so everyone feels comfortable sharing the sport we all love
Can't get on board with this.
Caveat: I'm a selfish prick.
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… so everyone feels comfortable sharing the sport we all love
Can't get on board with this.
Caveat: I'm a selfish prick.
I'm interested why? I don't think you have right to not be offended in every situation. This is really important in art, music etc making sure it keeps challenging us. But why not make small changes to your climbing behaviour, if that helps other people?
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I also don't like the 'if you don't like, climb somewhere else' argument. That is not a million miles away from the far right argument of 'love it or leave it'. Maybe, you think I am over-egging it, but if you are making someone feel really uncomfortable by climbing topless and you attitude is that is 'well that's what we've always done, if you don't like it piss off' then you are lacking a little in empathy.
I'm not saying you immediately need to put a top on but perhaps we should reflect on our behaviours as climbers and try to come to a common ground so everyone feels comfortable sharing the sport we all love.
The "if you don't like it then leave" was actually from Ged aimed at the tops-off crew.
I think my attitude is less "well that's what we've always done, if you don't like it piss off" and more "get over whatever your issue is, it's just a freakin' torso". Maybe they're the same. p.s. I almost certainly do lack empathy. Your logic could also easily be extended to the crag... and if encouraging diversity meant not getting tops off at the crag I feel like I would intuitively prefer the less rules-based scene even if it's less diverse. If I wanted a scene where going topless wasn't ok I'd have joined the golf club.
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Fair enough. But I think increasing diversity is always a good thing. I went to a talk about employment diversity and it should that companies with a more diverse employee base actually are more profitable. This could have analogies for climbing. A more diverse set of climbers, may mean a 'richer' and more interesting climbing culture too. Which I would be all for.
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I went to a talk about employment diversity and it should that companies with a more diverse employee base actually are more profitable.
I don't doubt it, but to my mind the climbing analogy is that a more diverse climber base means more good climbers... and I don't really care whether there are 2 people in the world climbing 9b+ or 10 of them... nor do I care that much whether it's Brits climbing hard or not - it makes watching the world cup more interesting but I'd certainly not trade an impact on my days out at the crag for it.
A more diverse set of climbers, may mean a 'richer' and more interesting climbing culture too.
That may be true.. but if it's a culture in which going tops off or down to a sport bra is considered off limits then I suspect I'd rather stick with the current one... maybe I'm more of a conservative that I thought.
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… so everyone feels comfortable sharing the sport we all love
Can't get on board with this.
Caveat: I'm a selfish prick.
I'm interested why? I don't think you have right to not be offended in every situation. This is really important in art, music etc making sure it keeps challenging us. But why not make small changes to your climbing behaviour, if that helps other people?
I don't feel the need to adjust my behaviour to make new climbers more comfortable because its not in my interest to increase participation or diversity in the use of indoor climbing walls.
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I'm probably being thick or culturally ignorant (or both), but can someone spell out why going tops off is going to prevent/inhibit diversity in climbing? I'd like to know the rationale.
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On unacceptable wall behaviours: thinking the mats under the circuit walls are the best place to do stretching/planks/yoga. Standing around having a chat in the fall zone of the steep board when someone's trying to use it. Constantly forgetting your card so they have to look you up on the system every time you go causing queues out the door at reception.
Couldn't care less about people being tops off, I don't tend to go tops off myself unless it's really hot (might do this week though). Equally, I don't mind if someone flashes a problem I'm struggling on - I'm already aware that I'm a shit climber in the scheme of things and the beta might be useful.
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A friend is at Lord's today watching England get demolished. Apparently the Marylebone Cricket Club have issued a statement that members do not have to wear jackets in the pavilion today and tomorrow. Truly the end of days.
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I would argue it absolutely is in everyone’s interest to increase diversity in all almost situations. Unless you are comfortable with the slow and dangerous slide to the right wing we are seeing across most western cultures.
I’d imagine if you are a Muslim woman interested in climbing, topless men at the wall isn’t entirely comfortable. But maybe I’m wrong. Considering the population of many uk cities is very diverse, you don’t see that at the wall.
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A friend is at Lord's today watching England get demolished. Apparently the Marylebone Cricket Club have issued a statement that members do not have to wear jackets in the pavilion today and tomorrow. Truly the end of days.
There had to be a price for the world cup win!
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I would argue it absolutely is in everyone’s interest to increase diversity in all almost situations. Unless you are comfortable with the slow and dangerous slide to the right wing we are seeing across most western cultures.
I think this is interesting... so your view is that more diversity leads to less right-wing-ism? Is that borne out in reality (genuine question)?
I guess I can buy the argument that once you have a diverse population it's good for hobbies/activities to be diverse to avoid segregation which - I presume based on no evidence - is more likely to lead to tensions...
I’d imagine if you are a Muslim woman interested in climbing, topless men at the wall isn’t entirely comfortable.
But this is true at the crag or at a park too... why stop at the wall? Should I have not spent all that time slacklining and playing frizbee topless on the downs in Bristol when I was a teenager? Should I be avoiding going tops off down the cornice?
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I’d imagine if you are a Muslim woman interested in climbing, topless men at the wall isn’t entirely comfortable. But maybe I’m wrong. Considering the population of many uk cities is very diverse, you don’t see that at the wall.
Would it be totally gammon of me to take your example and ask "what about surfing/going to the beach or any other activity where people might be topless?"
I'm all for increasing diversity but if that involves fundamentally changing the activity to suit the needs of the most conservative (religiously or otherwise) members who constitute a small proportion, then is that the right thing to do? Western cultures tend to be quite comfortable with male torsos. If I went to a bouldering wall in Saudi, or Iran, or Tel Aviv, or Singapore, or anywhere more socially conservative I wouldn't expect it to be OK to climb shirtless. But when in Rome...
Not my best written or thought out post. If this is still interesting later I'll try and put more thought into a reply. I think Jamie's post has a number of logical problems and assumptions though - not least that there may be religiously conservative women who are walking into secular buildings and having to leave because of a few male nipples. I have no idea how prevalent such attitudes may be but it does seem a bit Daily Mail to presume that that is how muslim women women are.
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I’d imagine if you are a Muslim woman interested in climbing, topless men at the wall isn’t entirely comfortable. But maybe I’m wrong. Considering the population of many uk cities is very diverse, you don’t see that at the wall.
I took a couple of female Muslim friends (who both wear headscarves) to the wall and they seemed totally unfazed by its fairly flesh-on-display nature. I mean, they live in modern Britain, go out, they know that people wear sports bras and vests etc, and as long as they can still cover up and feel welcome, it's all good - at least that's my interpretation.
I can see however how a prepubescent girl might find a lot of tops off blokes intimidating, but I'm not sure if that's more the bunch of blokes factor.
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Seriously, it sounds like some of you have really got your knockers in a twist about the shirts off thing.
It’s up to the wall management. They’re going to take the decision that best represents their clientele/ethos and you are free to vote on that decision with your feet.
And really? No evidence that segregation causes tensions? I’m assuming that wasn’t meant to sound the way it does. Anyone who thinks they “own” climbing or it’s adjacent other activities or has a greater right to access those activities than others, is a straight up twat. Or are we to write “minimum criteria and entrance standards” for people wishing to participate? Which attributes should we focus on? Age? Skin tone? Gender? Ability?
Oo! Oo! I know!
Social Class!
Maybe that’s not what some of the above posters were implying or trying to imply and there’s a huge grey area about antisocial behaviour and what should be allowable indoors or out.
But, we have fairly established ideas of what is “acceptable” behaviour and what constitutes “antisocial” both in our chosen niche and society at large and none of them include restricting diversity or access or include “segregation” because all of those constitute bigotry and have synonyms ending in -ism.
So, are we just defining “diversity” and “accessibility” differently; or are you guys going to post up your requirements for people to be allowed to partake in “your” hobby?
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Rome maybe but you'd be kicked out and fined from Venice Will :whistle:
I can see the argument that a large group of topless testostertorsos might put off some, but that's the more the group effect. The topless part seems a minor add on to that rather than the main put off. Most of the time the hairyback bloke trying hard in the corner will barely be noticed.
Personally any kind of dress code worries me more. That's def veering towards a climbing David Lloyd's :sick:. Isnt it a good thing that walls are breaking down body taboos?
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I find this so hard to believe - it goes completely against common sense that wearing an extra layer (essentially a barrier) could increase how fast your sweat evaporates. I even spent the last fifteen minutes on google scholar but couldn't find anything remotely informative. Care to link to anything?
Its a bugger to find research info online that is public viewable but here is one:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/2555/17b63b1c769a2173b61af91cd9e2ca763949.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi02c7i5s3jAhUqQxUIHSi0DfUQFjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw32aJnmknQrsJQSWGPqLyrR
Some top end PCM stuff:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jst.26
Plus an example of manufacturebabble:
https://arcticcool.com/instant-cooling/cooling-shirts-work/
The arguments I've heard are that the dripping fraction of sweat doesn't cool the body (and increases water and salt loss through over-sweating, impacting performance) but distributed contained sweat on well designed clothing all does and possibly more efficiently so. It's clearly not as simple as Fiend says and the Science is nothing like the infamous and idiotic climbing chalk utility papers (largely I guess as its a big deal, as competitions in most sports require tops in hot weather, so there is a big incentive to investigate the best top designs you can, with the spin off of selling what the competitors wear to produce money from auto wad status/ hero worship).
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It’s up to the wall management. They’re going to take the decision that best represents their clientele/ethos and you are free to vote on that decision with your feet.
Yes, everyone has agreed with the above.
No evidence that segregation causes tensions? I’m assuming that wasn’t meant to sound the way it does.
What I meant was that it's my presumption, but I've don precisely nothing to investigate it apart from listening to radio 4 and reading the guardian. My question was whether the presumption that increased diversity leads to reduced support for the far right is valid... because again, I've never really tried to work out if that is/sin't the case.
But, we have fairly established ideas of what is “acceptable” behaviour and what constitutes “antisocial” both in our chosen niche and society at large
Clearly we don't quite, or we wouldn't be split on the subject of whether tops off is antisocial or a perfectly fine part of climbing culture.
So, are we just defining “diversity” and “accessibility” differently; or are you guys going to post up your requirements for people to be allowed to partake in “your” hobby?
I'm not really sure what the point of your whole post is? You seem to be arguing against an imaginary poster espousing things that no-one on here has... you in a bad mood?
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In fact, I just reread your post and I'm not even entirely sure which side you're attacking?
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Well I definitely might be wrong. Maybe I just don’t particularly like tops off, and am trying to justify it with a diversity argument.
But my main objection was really to the whole ‘like it or lump it’ argument, which ever way it goes.
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It might actually help to have a contributor who is actually offended by topless men in the climbing wall come forward and say why they find it offensive. Did that happen and I missed it?
I don't feel particularly strongly either way, but I suspect that there is a certain amount of mixing up of offensive apparel (or lack thereof) and offensive/intimidating people.
I can understand that a bunch of shirtless dudebros posing and flexing and braying and selfie-ing might be off putting in the wall - but they'd be just as off-putting if they were fully clothed.
I wear a t-shirt or vest for 99% of my time in the wall, but should I have the misfortune to be at the wall on a very hot night where it's just unbearably hot then I might take my t-shirt off. My upper body is weedy, pasty, scrawny, and spotty. Nobody is going to be sexually excited by it :boohoo: I'm certainly not going to be acting in a way as to draw attention to the fact that I'm topless, I'm just going about my business trying to keep cool. If somebody tells me to cover up is that not what people call body shaming now?
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I've not posted for a while, but noticed a couple of posts asked me to expand...
So, sometimes I feel uncomfortable at the wall when there are people climbing topless. I don't know why - sometimes it doesnt bother me sometimes it does. Judging by a couple of other posts on here I'm not alone, but am not claiming to be in any sort of majority or minority.
I don't feel strongly to tell people to put their shirts on - as I wouldnt want to impede whatever they are doing - I can see why some people may choose to do that. But sometimes it makes me feel uncomfortable.
I would also be rather disappointed if people were tops off at the wall with no sensitivity that other people might not like it. To me thats just basic self awareness - I would like to think that most people have that.
So my rambling point is - its fair enough that people want to climb at walls without a top on. But its also fair enough that sometimes that might make some people (including me on occiasion) feel uncomfortable. Why shouldn't I feel like that? Its perfectly normal to like some things and not others? So maybe just be a bit self aware that not everyone might like it.
BTW, I have a colleague at work who hates the sight of bare feet (the tops not the bottom). If you walk around in sandals they squirm away to the other side of the corridor. Knowing this - I don't wear sandals/flipflops at work - to me thats just a common courtesy to be sensitive to their issue (even if it might seem a bit daft - its not the end to not wear sandals...). Of course if you don't know this then what can you do... but if you do know it, would it be nice/polite/pleasant to wear sandals in front of them whatever?
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But my main objection was really to the whole ‘like it or lump it’ argument, which ever way it goes.
But wont we always end up with that?
If you say tops off allowed then those offended/intimidated by it have to like it or lump it...
If you say no tops off then those who think that's a crap rule have to like it or lump it...
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All young people watch Love Island. In Love Island everyone has their top off. Therefore it’s quite reasonable to predict that in 10 years time top-wearers will be in the minority...
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In fact, I just reread your post and I'm not even entirely sure which side you're attacking?
I’d suggest a further reading then. Because I’m not in a bad mood. You have come across to me as a rather selfish person, in the way you wrote your posts, who tried to imply that segregation was not something implicitly evil. You did say yourself that what you wrote might seem selfish. I was just agreeing with you. 😉
I disagreed with that position and asked if that was, perhaps, not how you meant it to sound? Because you had earlier made your feelings about “diversity” plain.
So, either we are defining “diversity” differently or there is a strong repulsion on my part, to the idea of excluding people, based on some arbitrary criteria.
Please try to remember I’m not trying to be anything more than humorous and gently mocking. Teasing if you will. I don’t truly believe you to be some bigoted tosser, I just think words are more important than people realise.
I also think history is replete with rather glaring evidence of segregation causing “tension” and that petty segregation is as misleadingly benign as an acorn in a fertile field.
Strike the acorn.
Insert “first shoot of Japanese Knot weed”.
I also think, the entire argument is specious. Since it really has no more validity than saying “I don’t like green trousers”.
So, attacking the argument, more than any particular poster.
Where to draw the line?
A couple of plasters, covering nipples?
If someone has a particularly hairy back/chest/belly, is a running vest insufficient?
What about a boobtube for the middle aged men and lycra sports bras for the younger lads?
I know a lot of people who find Wolf t-shirts vomit inducingly hard to tolerate.
Live and let live.
As for the “acceptable” / “antisocial” divide, if we have a significant number of adults saying they can’t work that out, if they’ve been raised within this society; then we’re fucked, really.
Seems we’re close to that point, certainly in the House of Commons and politics in general...
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Your new post makes it seem to me that you're not sure which side you're attacking either... since this
Where to draw the line?
A couple of plasters, covering nipples?
If someone has a particularly hairy back/chest/belly, is a running vest insufficient?
What about a boobtube for the middle aged men and lycra sports bras for the younger lads?
I know a lot of people who find Wolf t-shirts vomit inducingly hard to tolerate.
Live and let live.
implies that you agree with me, but the rest of your post implies that you don't.
I still don't get where you get the shit about people wanting to exclude people from..? It's only a question of some saying that tops off is more inclusive and others saying they aren't that fussed about being pro-actively inclusive by modifying behaviour which they don't want to modify. No is advocating for proactive exclusion (apart from of topless people who refuse to put tops on, like me, though you could argue it's not proactive as I have a choice there).
in the way you wrote your posts, who tried to imply that segregation was not something implicitly evil.
It's not immediately apparent to me that self-chosen segregation is implicitly evil, though it strikes me - from my aforementioned knowledge base of bugger all in these matters - as a bad idea. But that's really a topic for another day perhaps.
I think you might be misreading my post earlier - does it help if I alter the punctuation to
"I guess I can buy the argument that once you have a diverse population it's good for hobbies/activities to be diverse to avoid segregation which, I presume (based on no evidence), is more likely to lead to tensions..." - my point being that my presumption (which fits with yours) is not based on a soundly reasoned or evidenced position.
Alternatively, can someone explain what Matt is on about, because everything else on this thread makes sense to me apart from those two posts...
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Its a bugger to find research info online that is public viewable but here is one:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/2555/17b63b1c769a2173b61af91cd9e2ca763949.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi02c7i5s3jAhUqQxUIHSi0DfUQFjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw32aJnmknQrsJQSWGPqLyrR
Some top end PCM stuff:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jst.26
I am not sure this literature really addresses the question as it is all comparison between different clothing types
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As regards the inclusivity aspects of tops off, it seems (just from personal experience) that the American climbing scene is a bit more balanced in terms of gender, do walls operate differently on that side of the pond?
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I just assume that all US walls have a topless guy with a volume in each hand shouting BRING THE RUCKUS at the entrance to the wall 24/7... but I admit I may be wrong on that :shrug:
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I just assume that all US walls have a topless guy with a volume in each hand shouting BRING THE RUCKUS at the entrance to the wall 24/7... but I admit I may be wrong on that :shrug:
That what I thought too but I didn't want to seem presumptuous.
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Its a bugger to find research info online that is public viewable but here is one:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/2555/17b63b1c769a2173b61af91cd9e2ca763949.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi02c7i5s3jAhUqQxUIHSi0DfUQFjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw32aJnmknQrsJQSWGPqLyrR
Some top end PCM stuff:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jst.26
I am not sure this literature really addresses the question as it is all comparison between different clothing types
You need to read the last line of the abstact again and the related content. Its just one example that I could find that was viewable in public.
My basic argument was that Fiend's certainty on the subject was unjustified and indicates to me his bias would likely override any real differences (I'd love to get him in a lab be proved wrong and see him say sorry 'Fonz style'). Whereas I agree with him on that highly flawed academic paper on climbing chalk utility. He also makes the point everyone is a little different and yet ignores the fact he is a bit of a statistical outlier in sweat terms. Its good fun to face his rhetoric though. I'm broadly with Matt on the other stuff (except maybe I'm surprised on willingness of so many to tolerate dripping sweat making walls smell of urea), with the proviso that my experience with social conservatives (those most likely to feel uncomfortable in our social liberal culture) is they tend to be polite in such situations and complain most when around those with similar views. Diversity in the walls I visit most seems to be OK and improving except most obviously within the subset of the several million UK muslims (5% overall and well into the tens of percent in some midlands and northern cities).
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All young people watch Love Island. In Love Island everyone has their top off. Therefore it’s quite reasonable to predict that in 10 years time top-wearers will be in the minority...
This might be true, though if my teenagers are anything to go by, they don’t watch TV at all and the Love Island viewers are mainly the mums I meet on the school run with younger two. There is a palpable eye rolling amongst the (relatively few) dads on the run, when the subject is raised in the playground...
Edit:
Bollocks, ok, one more time then:
Difference of opinion:
Me: Diversity is important.
Agreement:
Tops on off debate is a storm in a teacup (read: difference between personal offence (TT’s barefooted Phobia Friend and religious convictions and dislike of bodyhair etc) and genuinely offensive and antisocial behaviour (pick one: pulling booger’s from your nose and wiping them on the mats? Publicly admitting to listening to Drill rap for pleasure?). I like having my top off, I’ve not heard a convincing opposing view point, from my perspective.
Reason for contention?
I guess I was using “you” in the post to include Mr Chaz with Mr Abarro81; who, in fact was a little more strident, against Barrow’s ambivalence.
Obscure reference:
Beware petty segregation, lest it allow greater injustice to bloom. Something about “all evil needs to flourish” and “good men do nothing” blah blah blah, or something.
I love/hate everyone equally and will hug/punch anyone without prejudice or favour.
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All young people watch Love Island. In Love Island everyone has their top off. Therefore it’s quite reasonable to predict that in 10 years time top-wearers will be in the minority...
This might be true, though if my teenagers are anything to go by, they don’t watch TV at all and the Love Island viewers are mainly the mums I meet on the school run with younger two. There is a palpable eye rolling amongst the (relatively few) dads on the run, when the subject is raised in the playground...
And favourite with my 80 yo neighbours given I can usually tell what they watch as they listen so loud 😃
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Official BMC guidance: a vest is fine as long as it matches your skin.
https://youtu.be/kXOAAViF8Eo
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You need to read the last line of the abstact again and the related content. Its just one example that I could find that was viewable in public.
Last line of abstract refers to comparison of C1/C2 with C3 i.e. different clothing types not vs naked body
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According to Boris Johnston all the doomsters, gloomsters and people betting against Britain are going to lose their shirts. A bit uninclusive to those like TomTom I thought.
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According to Boris Johnston all the doomsters, gloomsters and people betting against Britain are going to lose their shirts. A bit uninclusive to those like TomTom I thought.
Ha :) I am reassured that generally nothing but lies comes from his gob.
And I’m avoiding listening to his voice.
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You need to read the last line of the abstact again and the related content. Its just one example that I could find that was viewable in public.
Last line of abstract refers to comparison of C1/C2 with C3 i.e. different clothing types not vs naked body
Indeed.
The study shows that professional clothing works better than "common polyester clothing".
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You need to read the last line of the abstact again and the related content. Its just one example that I could find that was viewable in public.
Last line of abstract refers to comparison of C1/C2 with C3 i.e. different clothing types not vs naked body
Indeed.
The study shows that professional clothing works better than "common polyester clothing".
As above, plus I skimmed the methods
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Its a bugger to find research info online that is public viewable but here is one:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/2555/17b63b1c769a2173b61af91cd9e2ca763949.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi02c7i5s3jAhUqQxUIHSi0DfUQFjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw32aJnmknQrsJQSWGPqLyrR
Some top end PCM stuff:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jst.26
I am not sure this literature really addresses the question as it is all comparison between different clothing types
You need to read the last line of the abstact again and the related content. Its just one example that I could find that was viewable in public.
As Barrows and Tim have said (edit: and Nibile since I started writing this post), that first piece of research only compared types of clothing against the control condition of a 'regular polo shirt'. So unless Fiend is strutting around in his finest Ralph Lauren polo I don't think this paper offers any useful advice.
The second link is a conceptual article but still doesn't answer the question as far as I can see, and the third is trying to sell me a fabric called 'hydro freeze X technology'. (as an aside, this ridiculous name reminded me of that fabric which the Works sold for a while - Accapi nexus - anyone else remember that?)
My basic argument was that Fiend's certainty on the subject was unjustified and indicates to me his bias would likely override any real differences (I'd love to get him in a lab be proved wrong and see him say sorry 'Fonz style').
He also makes the point everyone is a little different and yet ignores the fact he is a bit of a statistical outlier in sweat terms. Its good fun to face his rhetoric though. I'm broadly with Matt on the other stuff (except maybe I'm surprised on willingness of so many to tolerate dripping sweat making walls smell of urea)
In 25 years of going to indoor walls I can't recall having ever seen sweat dripping onto the mats, nor been that disgusted at a general smell of sweat (aside from the odd person but I don't think that would be solved by making them wear a t-shirt). Maybe that makes me the outlier. Or maybe it's you!
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Get your tits out for the lads, lads. But if you stink it’s time to leave.
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I apologise I was indeed misreading that particular paper. Also looking a bit more tbh I've also found a few other articles from some sports scientists that say skin is always best (albeit none linked to any data). I'll park my side until I have some better info.
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Aside from whether an extra t-shirt makes you warmer or cooler, I find it really quite interesting about shirts on or off at the wall because I think it taps onto a lot of different social attitudes.
When I first started climbing walls were essentially indoor crags, so they were treated as such. Now they are probably better classified as a leisure facility, with far greater diversity of customers. I suspect that attitudes to shirt-wearing are reflected in this distinction. For example, I would be very surprised if anyone in the anti-shirtless camp would extend that attitude to people climbing at say the schoolroom, which is only visited by other very keen climbers (and so is more towards the indoor-crag environment, socially at least).
Personally, I have noticed myself feeling more self-conscious climbing topless at a wall if there are a load of not-outdoor-or-proper-climbers around, compared with how I would feel at say the school room or the foundry (although the foundry would vary depending on if there was a birthday party or whatever going on). However, I don't think that its sensible to always pander to people's perceived expectations, so I resist the temptation to do so. Nor do I think that climbing shirtless in front of those who may not approve means I lack empathy or am uncaring (as has been suggested earlier in the thread). No more so than they would be uncaring towards my level of physical discomfort if they were to ask me to put a shirt on.
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edit, doesn't matter!
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When I first started climbing walls were essentially indoor crags, so they were treated as such. Now they are probably better classified as a leisure facility, with far greater diversity of customers.
This is a distillation of this whole thread isn’t it? In the time that we all started climbing, rock climbers have gone from being the main customers of public climbing walls to not even their main target market and we’re having to adapt to that.
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Have to say that I agree with pretty much everything Barrows has said here. I don't like the idea of making people uncomfortable, but at the same time I don't see why the majority of climbers, who seem to be okay with shirts off, should change their behaviour to suit the vanishingly small minority who might have have a problem with it.
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When I first started climbing walls were essentially indoor crags, so they were treated as such. Now they are probably better classified as a leisure facility, with far greater diversity of customers.
This is a distillation of this whole thread isn’t it? In the time that we all started climbing, rock climbers have gone from being the main customers of public climbing walls to not even their main target market and we’re having to adapt to that.
Adapt... or resist!
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This is all from a Male perspective so far. Would be nice to hear from any women who may post here what they think?
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This is all from a Male perspective so far. Would be nice to hear from any women who may post here what they think?
They can’t stop laughing long enough to type...
After an eternity of being forced to cover your chest, even when it’s being used for it’s evolved purpose, until the last decade or less (when some relief has begun to show), it must be hysterically funny to witness a bunch of blokes having an angst attack about showing their nipples...
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This is all from a Male perspective so far. Would be nice to hear from any women who may post here what they think?
They can’t stop laughing long enough to type...
😂😂😂
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Christ this was a fucking riot wasn't it.
1. Climbing Hangar - warm day, warmed up in my Cattle Decapitation vest, took it off as soon as I got hot enough that it was inhibiting my climbing. Got told to put it back on. Asked to see the manager. Asked for the reason, no reason than a blanket policy. Asked what would happen if I persisted. He said I'd be asked to leave and offered a refund. I agreed to that. He was shocked but did it anyway. TBH as much as I don't want to give walls like that my business, I'm not proud of the negativity of the situation.
2. Incidentally the only two walls I can remember enforcing a tops-on policy are EICA Ratho and Transition Aberdeen, both of which are owned / managed higher up by non-climbing companies. None of the other walls I know managed by dedicated climbers have done it. But obviously I haven't been to every wall, just 35 or so.
3. Offwidth. All I know is the strict facts as to what actually happens with me climbing all the time, indoors and outdoors. I have a variety of lightweight and normal vests that I have on and off warming up, doing easy climbs, resting between attempts etc, and I invariably get better conditions on my hands without a top on. If it helps my body is not massively sweaty and dripping everywhere, so maybe that is where the misapplication of the research applies - it's all about my hand sweating and keeping my body cool enough to reduce that.
4. As has been said by many people, part of the issue seems to be other issues going along with going shirtless: posing, preening, flexing, showboating, boisterousness, laddishness, large groups etc. I agree that this could be offputting (along with other aspects of behaviour like excess shouting, screaming, swearing etc, or especially being a dour grumpy cunt). As before a better course of action is to tackle the BEHAVIOUR before the attire. I'm sure based on anecotes in this thread and more that people can be offputting arseholes irrespective of their clothing, OR friendly affable and respectful irrespective of their clothing. P.S. re-reading what reeve said, I do put the effort in if I am climbing shirtless around non-climbers, families, newer people etc, to be extra polite and courteous (obviously what you'd expect from Fiend anyway ahem). For the reasons mentioned.
5. Incidentally at Transition, I was climbing with the Lyons, after I got bollocked and had to put my vest back on, whilst she was able to continue climbing with a sports bra (perhaps 1/3 or less of the flesh coverage of a vest), and believe me her 6 pack could cut through marble and the sight of it could send OAPs away screaming. P.S. I very much support and encourage women to wear sports bras as the bare minimum of clothing to fit in with the basic decency level in Western society if it is more effective for their climbing / training.
6. Incidentally I have been pondering on the most unacceptable (as in actually inhibitive or genuinely offensive) behaviour I've encountered, appalling music aside. I think it's been people setting off after you on problems / routes that intersect yours, or getting in the way when your at a crucial lower percentage dynamic move right at the top of your problem - invariably on the crucial redpoint attempt after many sessions and getting exactly the right beta, resting time, clothing or lack thereof...
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Despite the unbelievable mugginess today, I went to the wall. One of the hottest I've ever been inside. It was disgusting, I'm not proud of how i looked, smelt or climbed.
Despite said conditions there were only a handful of people climbing topless in the wall (and it was packed)! I reckon around 6 or 7 in total. This might suggest that actually the majority of people would prefer to climb with tops on and that if the wall were to decide on a blanket ban it might not cause that much of a fuss.
On another note, one guy was climbing in black skinny jeans. Not stretch ones either. On a day like today! Just looking at him made me even hotter, climb worser and be sadderer.
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I never take my top off at the wall. I would like to pretend that’s because I am sensitive to the needs of others but it’s probably just because I would feel too self conscious, even today when my T-shirt felt like a dishcloth after five minutes.
If I had the chiselled physique of an eighth grade wad I would not only climb top off but also walk to the wall top off and expect a round of applause when I got there.
The main unacceptable wall behaviour is being given unsolicited beta by some overexcited gym bunny who had just clawed their way up a v. 2. All other bad behaviours pale in comparison.
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"Offwidth. All I know is the strict facts as to what actually happens with me climbing all the time,"
None of us 'know' this, we build internal narratives and believe them, thats human psychology 101, even if we are right. I never had an issue with your honesty, nor you fiery rhetoric (pure UKB Fiend), just your certainty for the rest of us (it reminds me of the well intentioned zealotry of the old clean hang gang). Even sad to see you booted out for the rule...but its a commercial decision walls have the right to make and I think will grow. On really hot indoor days its best to relax and accept performance won't be optimum, shirt or none. I have no 'nipple concerns' but respect others who might have.
I'm still a bit perplexed reeve has never seem sweat drips hit a bouldering mat...maybe a good sign he has more sense than to be indoors in such conditions. Monday night in Nottm depot was a doozy for that... as bad as I've seen it but at least the wall was quiet and the deodorant aerosol overuse crowd were absent.... and top and long trousers on I was chuffed to make progress on some problems, something one might think was impossible for anyone given the fuss some make about heat (yes I'm an outlier in some of my concerns and certainly so in that very few fat older geezers boulder... and to be fair I always found weights gyms a lot worse for sweat stink and deodorant aerosols (that make me gag)... maybe my age group should stop being so nice that we wouldn't normally take tops off... a good bit of older near nude indoor bouldering, maybe with some serious but non infectious skin conditions, might help us focus on just how enlighted some of these young, ripped, top-off, boulderers really are ;-)
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Is anyone else's instagram feed just full of topless men flexing their bodies?
I thought stripping down and flexing was the social norm nowadays?
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What was that line of Foley's?
"I'm only here for the homoerotic flexfest."
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If walls want a blanket ban that's fine. They could also then consider how they'll maintain appropriate conditions (temperature/humidity etc) throughout the facility so that everyone can feel comfortable all the time.That's the overall idea isn't it.
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And as Pete has already opened the "bad wall owner's behaviour" door.
Should owner take responsibility for the quality and appropriateness of the problems/routes they set?
Should owners follow up with injured customers to ensure the initial injury assessment conducted at the time is still accurate?
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This is all from a Male perspective so far. Would be nice to hear from any women who may post here what they think?
I doubt a female opinion would provide much resolution - we're likely to be as split in our views on this topic as the rest of you.
Personally, I have no problem with people climbing topless and women in sports bras. Having shaped my training mentality firstly at barden bouldering wall, and then the Blackburn incarnation of buk, trying hard was the norm and tops off helped a lot. Offwidth, the idea of going to the wall in long pants and shirt sounds like handicapping yourself in terms of performance. I have tested the process many times and truly do find I have more success stripping off to a sports top when it's hot.
However.... 80% of the time I climb in a vest, I'm actually a little bit shy about my body so I only take the vest off if I feel it is necessary. I'm certainly not parading it to intimidate anyone.
I for one would find it off putting to climb at a wall that had a shirts on policy enforced, unless they happened to have an awesome cooling system. Thankfully all the walls I train at are run by real climbers who understand the mentality of wanting to push hard, or else what's the point??
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Offwidth, the idea of going to the wall in long pants and shirt sounds like handicapping yourself in terms of performance.
So, that's why I'm so crap! Good news in way though; if I can only muster the self-confidence to abandon my shirt, ticklist crushage will ensue! I'm already taking baby-steps towards semi-nude rock mastery - this summer heat has forced me to wear shorts for the first time since I was at school, around 25 years ago (swimming pools excepted).
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Had forgotten about this one:
https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,18890.0.html (https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,18890.0.html)
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So had I!!
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I seem to recall saying similar to someone at the time, but I did consider getting a t-shirt made with a photorealistic all-over image of my upper body printed on it, specifically for any wall with a "shirt on" policy.
Fiend - maybe you should try it!
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I seem to recall saying similar to someone at the time, but I did consider getting a t-shirt made with a photorealistic all-over image of my upper body printed on it, specifically for any wall with a "shirt on" policy.
Fiend - maybe you should try it!
Surely an upper body photorealistic tattoo of a tee shirt is a better solution for Fiend?
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Genius!!
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Can we collectively design a T-shirt/vest for you Fiend?
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also , when is a top a top?
the climbing gym my friends usually climb at has "tops on" policy.
i've been meaning to get a "top" like this for years:
https://www.asos.com/asos-design/asos-string-vest/prd/6140229
never got around to actually order one
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And as Pete has already opened the "bad wall owner's behaviour" door.
Should owner take responsibility for the quality and appropriateness of the problems/routes they set?
Should owners follow up with injured customers to ensure the initial injury assessment conducted at the time is still accurate?
I’m sorry, are you suggesting that wall staff conduct injury assessment/diagnosis and are then responsible for recovery from that injury?
And what do you mean by “appropriateness of problem”?
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Technical fabric and the <10% body fat look: https://www.flickr.com/photos/tomasz_pietek_lazur/21090279526
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Offwidth, the idea of going to the wall in long pants and shirt sounds like handicapping yourself in terms of performance. I have tested the process many times and truly do find I have more success stripping off to a sports top when it's hot.
Doesn't seem to help me. I've tried a fair bit outdoors when younger and I felt it was if anything a minor hindrance (ditto for running). I genuinely felt I climbed better in heat with a top on and legs covered. The other outdoor benefits were less grit/sandstone rash, fewer insect bites and things like nettle stings, and fewer worries about sunburn. Also, although I've long since given up on honing performance I still really enjoy solving movement puzzles and trying hard. My long trousers are always stretch fabric and don't hinder me (unless rain sodden.... never happened yet indoors but it will be a good test tonight!). I've also got to a position where I hardly use chalk indoors as there is so much of it on the holds ( but often need a brush). I only need it on slopers on the hottest days and 'gymnast style' when doing stamina laps on the juggier sport loops, where the holds can otherwise bite my hands.
I do sympathise with Fiend, whom I've climbed with and I know really does suffer from sweat related issues. Yet, if I extrapolated from my personal experience I could claim (like the bogus clean hand gang views) sweat based performance complaints are massively overstated; which would be silly. I do know that anything that adds negativity prior to attempts should be avoided, irrespective of it being scientifically based or superstition. What I do works for me, I nearly always succeed on a few indoor problems at my very limit each month after many tens of tries and my consistent flash level across styles and stamina circuits helps keep me confident on my trad onsights.
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And as Pete has already opened the "bad wall owner's behaviour" door.
Should owner take responsibility for the quality and appropriateness of the problems/routes they set?
Should owners follow up with injured customers to ensure the initial injury assessment conducted at the time is still accurate?
I’m sorry, are you suggesting that wall staff conduct injury assessment/diagnosis and are then responsible for recovery from that injury?
And what do you mean by “appropriateness of problem”?
On your first question. Nope. My understanding is that when an injury occurs an accident assessment form is filled in. Which is at some point in the future passed to the HSE. The accident assessment includes writing down on the form what the injury is. This is determined by the staff member who fills out the form in consultation with the injured party.
This could be inaccurate information. A broken ankle, at the time, could look and feel like a sprain for example and sprain could be the injury information the form contains. Just wondering if accurate information on the form is important or not.
Second question. For example. A very overhanging Font 3/4 problem with a long dynamic move for the top hold. It is part of a circuit which new and novice climbers will look to try.
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Yeah.
Thought so.
We discovered that this is not the case, with HSE sometime ago. We use the a standard accident book on their advice and that of the insurance company. We also maintain a “near miss” book, but that’s mainly for our own edification.
The “reportable” accident, which I believe you’re thinking of, gets complicated, when the injured party is not an employee and the accident is not an “accident at work”.
So, beyond that, I’m not going to comment on the law...
Under advice, we operate the following “assessment” and act as follows only:
1:If the injured party is readily mobile, we recommend the injured party seeks further medical advice.
2: If the injured is not readily mobile, seek immediate advice on a non-urgent basis (101 etc).
3: Any doubt whatsoever about severity of injury, call immediate medical assistance.
Obviously, there are emergency first aid protocols, but those are reserved pretty much for unresponsive/unconscious etc casualties, or those requiring immediate bleeding control.
I believe anything else would be irresponsible.
On the problem thing.
I think that’s tougher than you are making out. Getting the balance right is difficult. We could just set jug fests and not set anything over V3 and reduce wall height to max 2mtrs. I exaggerate, of course, but I once had an HSE rep from a school come to do a risk assessment, and they wanted top ropes fitted throughout our bouldering wall, before they would allow their students to use the facility. She was clutching the playground traversing wall regs when she arrived.
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Okay unacceptable behaviour from wall owners / managers / staff (apart from the obvious ones like greatly hampering training by having appalling playlists or tops-on rules).
1. Having an unskippable 6 minute "introduction to bouldering" video before you can even sign in on the fucking ipad waiver form. Really?? Seriously?? I spent the entire time deliberately facing away from the screen and counting up the number of indoor walls I'd been to previously, I got to 36, which I then happily reported to the reception lass who of course had been alive for less years than I'd been bouldering indoors. "Wall policy" again, the catch-all non-reason for all manner of nonsense.
2. Having a so-called stamina circuit set with disproportionally hard stopper bloc cruxes on what should be a fairly balanced actual STAMINA circuit. So your planned F7a+ pumpfest isn't the enduro-testpiece you're desperate to train on, it's a F6b+ with a random low-percentage Font 6C horseshit move invariably on greasy slopers or unbearable razors, right near the end, as if the fucking wall doesn't already have 200 low percentage Font 6C moves which you're trying to avoid by going on the stamina board. This makes my piss boil so much it comes out of my ears as clouds of piss-steam and no that doesn't help with cooling.
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I didn’t think I was opening the ‘bad wall owners’ door! I was just saying paying £9-10 to use walls which get a large number of customers seems a bit excessive.
But I accept that Matt has to keep the Aston Martins in good nick in that diamond-encladded moonbase.
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I once had an HSE rep from a school come to do a risk assessment, and they wanted top ropes fitted throughout our bouldering wall, before they would allow their students to use the facility. She was clutching the playground traversing wall regs when she arrived.
The HSE rep will be a teacher who has been on union training course(s). There may be quite a range of insight/experience in the role.
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2. Having a so-called stamina circuit set with disproportionally hard stopper bloc cruxes on what should be a fairly balanced actual STAMINA circuit. So your planned F7a+ pumpfest isn't the enduro-testpiece you're desperate to train on, it's a F6b+ with a random low-percentage Font 6C horseshit move invariably on greasy slopers or unbearable razors, right near the end, as if the fucking wall doesn't already have 200 low percentage Font 6C moves which you're trying to avoid by going on the stamina board. This makes my piss boil so much it comes out of my ears as clouds of piss-steam and no that doesn't help with cooling.
This also gets my goat quite severely. Slopers should also have no place on a circuit board, they're too conditions dependent. If I was building my own ideal circuit board, (which one day, maybe I will...), the holds would be almost all positive and the downclimb section(s) of the circuit should never be the most difficult.
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I take back "bad". "Wall owner's behaviour" door then. Poor choice of words from me.
Sounds like it's ok for the reported injury to differ from the actual injury.
Also setting problems is difficult and tricky. Appropriateness may or may not be considered.
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I didn’t think I was opening the ‘bad wall owners’ door! I was just saying paying £9-10 to use walls which get a large number of customers seems a bit excessive.
But I accept that Matt has to keep the Aston Martins in good nick in that diamond-encladded moonbase.
Don’t be silly.
Aston Martin’s lack the ground clearance for lunar use.
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I didn’t think I was opening the ‘bad wall owners’ door! I was just saying paying £9-10 to use walls which get a large number of customers seems a bit excessive.
But I accept that Matt has to keep the Aston Martins in good nick in that diamond-encladded moonbase.
Don’t be silly.
Aston Martin’s lack the ground clearance for lunar use.
No problem with low gravity... just jump out and lift them over.
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I once had an HSE rep from a school come to do a risk assessment, and they wanted top ropes fitted throughout our bouldering wall, before they would allow their students to use the facility. She was clutching the playground traversing wall regs when she arrived.
The HSE rep will be a teacher who has been on union training course(s). There may be quite a range of insight/experience in the role.
I know. We deal with many schools, even running PE sessions twice a week for a few. More to the point, we have in the past modified some SOPs based on the advice from experienced teachers, usually PE teachers, used to organising off site activities and a gold mine of anecdotal horror stories...
On that note, I once accompanied a primary school trip to Buckfast Abbey, as a parent volunteer. The trip wound up in an interesting, multi-agency, incident as one lad got his finger stuck in the Abbey.
Not a door, key hole, or anything “normal”, it was the actual stonework of the building.
Don’t ask.
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You shouldn't have encouraged buildering on a school trip ;)
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I've seen a lady offer guys one of her spare strappy vests, that she just so happened to have in her bag, to any who removes their t-shirt when they get too hot. Both times I've witnessed this the guys have accepted graciously. Seems like a fair way to deal with the situation if you can't bear the sight of naked male torso.
Socks are unacceptable, I saw someone climbing without shoes just his sweaty socks earlier this week, what a punter, barefoot with chalk is better in pockets.
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I've just driven past Endcliffe park and I was seriously offended. I feel a little bit too intimidated to enter the park now. I might have a word with the council and see if they'll introduce a blanket 'no tops off' park policy.
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On another note, one guy was climbing in black skinny jeans. Not stretch ones either. On a day like today! Just looking at him made me even hotter, climb worser and be sadderer.
I wasn't aware that Andy_e went to the wall last night?
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😂😂
https://twitter.com/frucool/status/1154349783647174656?s=21
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😂😂
https://twitter.com/frucool/status/1154349783647174656?s=21
Still better than black skinny jeans.
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Genuine double take there to check that it wasn't Foley.
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Genuine double take there to check that it wasn't Foley.
Only a stallion of a man such as yourself could make such a comparison
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Okay unacceptable behaviour from wall owners / managers / staff (apart from the obvious ones like greatly hampering training by having appalling playlists or tops-on rules).
1. Having an unskippable 6 minute "introduction to bouldering" video before you can even sign in on the fucking ipad waiver form. Really?? Seriously?? I spent the entire time deliberately facing away from the screen and counting up the number of indoor walls I'd been to previously, I got to 36, which I then happily reported to the reception lass who of course had been alive for less years than I'd been bouldering indoors. "Wall policy" again, the catch-all non-reason for all manner of nonsense.
2. Having a so-called stamina circuit set with disproportionally hard stopper bloc cruxes.
More good ranting. I disagree completely about 1. Watching a video once that might help morons think harder about their unsafe behaviour in the wall (like walking under boulderers on the wall) is something I don't even class as toleration. I really enjoyed the Macclesfield one it was so good.
On the second point I agree but suspect you are exaggerating... f6C on a F7a where exactly???
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Okay unacceptable behaviour from wall owners / managers / staff (apart from the obvious ones like greatly hampering training by having appalling playlists or tops-on rules).
1. Having an unskippable 6 minute "introduction to bouldering" video before you can even sign in on the fucking ipad waiver form. Really?? Seriously?? I spent the entire time deliberately facing away from the screen and counting up the number of indoor walls I'd been to previously, I got to 36, which I then happily reported to the reception lass who of course had been alive for less years than I'd been bouldering indoors. "Wall policy" again, the catch-all non-reason for all manner of nonsense.
2. Having a so-called stamina circuit set with disproportionally hard stopper bloc cruxes.
More good ranting. I disagree completely about 1. Watching a video once that might help morons think harder about their unsafe behaviour in the wall (like walking under boulderers on the wall) is something I don't even class as toleration. I really enjoyed the Macclesfield one it was so good.
On the second point I agree but suspect you are exaggerating... f6C on a F7a where exactly???
On the note of watching long unskipable videos, last year my girlfriend and I went to a wall in LA and they had a 15 minute video that included top rope lead and autobelays despite clearly saying we just wanted to boulder. They said we needed to watch this as standard policy. Also this is not a general america thing, as I went to a wall in san diego and they didn't to check anything or have a video.
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In the mid 30s indoors last evening and I was impressed that two pals got problems they had been working before (reds and purples). Good craic, if a maybe bit obsessive/masochistict. It was quiet, which was nice, as for once on a steep problem you didn't have to worry about where those people 'who need to watch those videos' were.
Ian Hislop was in the pub afterwards!
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In the mid 30s indoors last evening and I was impressed that two pals got problems they had been working before (reds and purples). Good craic, if a maybe bit obsessive/masochistict. It was quiet, which was nice, as for once on a steep problem you didn't have to worry about where those people 'who need to watch those videos' were.
Ian Hislop was in the pub afterwards!
It was how hot?!
Mid 30’s?
I was upset I couldn’t get it below 23.5⁰ here yesterday and today is so muggy we’ve hit 24.4 right now. Without AC, it can’t be cooler.
I switch it round, so the vent draws from theshaded side of the building and the extractors remove the whole room volume in 20 minutes. 51% humidity today, though, so a bit of a losing battle.
That’s 4kw of fans running, for 12 hrs and we’re tiny compared to the likes of the Works etc (665m³); so it’s no joke ventilating these places.
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Okay unacceptable behaviour from wall owners / managers / staff (apart from the obvious ones like greatly hampering training by having appalling playlists or tops-on rules).
1. Having an unskippable 6 minute "introduction to bouldering" video before you can even sign in on the fucking ipad waiver form. Really?? Seriously?? I spent the entire time deliberately facing away from the screen and counting up the number of indoor walls I'd been to previously, I got to 36, which I then happily reported to the reception lass who of course had been alive for less years than I'd been bouldering indoors. "Wall policy" again, the catch-all non-reason for all manner of nonsense.
I think this is just arrogance. So you've been to a lot of climbing walls? How does the climbing wall that you're at now know that? Surely you can see that they have to brief people on the dos and donts. For climbing walls where they have roped stuff going on I can completely understand their checking all their new customers. There's plenty of Walter Mitty/Bear Grylls types who will have done a bit of hillwalking or watched a few EpicTV videos and now think they're shit hot wads. If they take people's word for it and they have a fuck up then they'll be liable. I generally view anyone who thinks they know it all with suspicion by default. Dunning-Kreuger and all that.
Now if we could have a system where accreditation at one wall meant that you could climb at another wall, that would be worth having.
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Doesn't have to be a long, unskippable, video you buttsniffer. It's indoor bouldering, not rocket science. A brief series of images / instructions:
1. Warm-up.
2. Don't leave belongings on the mat.
3. Don't have metalwork attached to you.
4. Look before you pass under someone.
5. Look before you start a problem next to someone.
6. Downclimb as far as you can before dropping off and look below you before you do so.
7. Don't lounge underneath problems.
8. Respect other wall users.
It took me less than 6 minutes to type that and a hell of a lot less to read it. Other walls can manage with stuff that simple, so anything more convoluted should be an option for the climber, not a requirement.
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Now if we could have a system where accreditation at one wall meant that you could climb at another wall, that would be worth having.
Be careful what you wish for...
License to climb anyone?
Have you paid you dues this year?
Can I see your insurance, sir?
I would miss the verbal brief, if we switched to a vid; mainly because I quite enjoy telling people they might die...🤡
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Doesn't have to be a long, unskippable, video you buttsniffer. It's indoor bouldering, not rocket science. A brief series of images / instructions:
1. Warm-up.
2. Don't leave belongings on the mat.
3. Don't have metalwork attached to you.
4. Look before you pass under someone.
5. Look before you start a problem next to someone.
6. Downclimb as far as you can before dropping off and look below you before you do so.
7. Don't lounge underneath problems.
8. Respect other wall users.
It took me less than 6 minutes to type that and a hell of a lot less to read it. Other walls can manage with stuff that simple, so anything more convoluted should be an option for the climber, not a requirement.
You forgot all the bits about death and serious injury, which are actually the most important bits.
And taking off rings.
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And taking off rings.
:sick:
Tried to politely warn a guy at a London wall about the whole degloving thing as he was lurching for jugs. He said he’d rather take the injury than take his mum’s ring off, I suggested maybe taping over it as middle ground!
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I would miss the verbal brief, if we switched to a vid; mainly because I quite enjoy telling people they might die...🤡
Last time I had to listen to the verbal brief at a wall I started getting all disgruntled and irritated ("don't you know I've been climbing approximately 200 years etc. etc."), but then realized that was a really snotty attitude; the employee was just doing their job, didn't know me from Adam, and had no particular reason to trust that I knew what I was doing.
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You forgot all the bits about death and serious injury, which are actually the most important bits.
And taking off rings.
The death and stuff is in the massive disclaimer thing that we don't ever read, ofc.
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You forgot all the bits about death and serious injury, which are actually the most important bits.
And taking off rings.
The death and stuff is in the massive disclaimer thing that we don't ever read, ofc.
Over the years, I think I’ve seen an inkling of your sense of humour; I can imagine you gleefully explaining the consequences of not removing rings to the mother of little Farquaad and Fenella...
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Maybe he did know of you Andy and thought you were some mentalist Brit? ;)
I propose we give free rein to Fiend to write a standardised disclaimer and then roll it out to every wall in the country. That should address overcrowding issues nicely.
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Thinking about Yossarians Q7 joke earlier in the thread. This morning when I was with the lad for a toddler climbing thing at the depot (Manc) I only spotted one Q7 but there was a 69 plate range rover and a 19 Tesla model S....
Don’t think there were any owners present either 😃
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Doesn't have to be a long, unskippable, video you buttsniffer. It's indoor bouldering, not rocket science. A brief series of images / instructions:
1. Warm-up.
2. Don't leave belongings on the mat.
3. Don't have metalwork attached to you.
4. Look before you pass under someone.
5. Look before you start a problem next to someone.
6. Downclimb as far as you can before dropping off and look below you before you do so.
7. Don't lounge underneath problems.
8. Respect other wall users.
It took me less than 6 minutes to type that and a hell of a lot less to read it. Other walls can manage with stuff that simple, so anything more convoluted should be an option for the climber, not a requirement.
That's pretty funny as the the bouldering videos you think are completely shit include quite a bit more stuff that is important. Notably: how to try to fall if you come off unexpectedly; the dangers of watches and jewellery; some words about spotting (best not to unless you really know what you are doing); keep a close eye on kids as they get easily distracted and can disbehave; training boards are for experienced climbers and will very likely injure new climbers; don't use the very top of the wall; beware of spinning holds; what to do if you see an injury or dangerous behaviour; politeness to others like chalk use and beta spraying; then how the problems are set and what constitutes success...... and I'm sure others can come up with more.
On point 4 some do look before they pass under others anyway... when they try it with me I stop and make the point my mass will cause them a mighty mess if I slip, but it's really not funny and I've seen the person falling from a problem hit the moron and get injued as a result (frankly the moron deserves any injury).
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Tomtom - they must have been part of OMM's fleet and bodyguards, on a research visit.
There were several topless males present later, all singular sedate and sensible. Apart from some twat in hideous shorts and stockings wtf if he really wants to cool his hands down take the fucking stockings off instead of his vest, what a noob.
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the the bouldering videos you think are completely shit
They might be bafta-award-winning documentaries on "Modern Tropes In Interpersonal Interactions In The Indoor Climbing Community: An Educational Investigation Into Optimum Behaviour Methodology" but that doesn't mean I nor anyone else with half a brain needs to sit through literally entire minutes of them when I could be spending my time more usefully stripping off to my underpants and campussing up and down jugs until I'm boiling enough to drip a veritable lake of oily sweat in your likely landing zone.
Thank fuck I haven't yet found any cross-over with obligatory-video-nonsense indoor walls and must-keep-tops-on-and-train-badly indoor walls, my poor wee brain might explode if I did :wall:
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Maybe he did know of you Andy and thought you were some mentalist Brit? ;)
Quite. Given what foreigners generally think about British climbing, he probably heard the accent and assumed Andy was actively looking for opportunities for death & serious injury.
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Maybe he did know of you Andy and thought you were some mentalist Brit? ;)
Quite. Given what foreigners generally think about British climbing, he probably heard the accent and assumed Andy was actively looking for opportunities for death & serious injury.
He just thought Andy was Fiend.
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😱
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How rude, you apologise to Andy right now!!
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didn't know me from Adam,
You look nowt like Ondra.
(Unless Ondra has grown a massive beard in the last fortnight)
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I’ll add one to the list.
Groups of people sat in the middle of the mats clearly having a social/gnatter and not climbing - when it’s busy and there’s a whole empty seating area 5m away....
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I will add another couple to the list.
Adjacent businesses abusing my staff before we are even open for our customers parking in their space.
An ex-adjacent business having a go at an Emergency First Responder for parking in their space. Said First Responder was dealing with a chipped vertebrae so a broken back. When told that a flashing blue light means you can park anyway grumpy old twat said "well hurry up then"
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; or for that matter when they go to a beach or swimming pool?
They go to the woman's only swimming session.
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I can understand people being put off by a bunch of nobhead posers, but can't understand how someone minding there own business without a shirt on could be seen as offensive.
You've clearly never seen me with my shirt off, especially after the abdominal surgery.
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I'm 50/50 on whether I like this thread.
On the one hand, it's good to have somewhere to rant about the pair this weekend who would tie on, in front of the line I want to try, and then have a 15 minute natter without pulling on. Occasionally the "leader" would turn to grasp the starting holds. Seemingly this was done only to create false hope, since he would turn back and raise a new topic of discussion instead. >:(
However, the day before I had my burns ruined by a combination of humid, sticky conditions and a new-found paranoia about taking my top off for optimum cooling.
:devangel:
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You've clearly never seen me with my shirt off, especially after the abdominal surgery.
Do it!! Extra bonus points for anyone with deformities or surgery scars who is in there cranking still :strongbench:
Stu - great call on the first one there.
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Another completely unacceptable sin against decency and any form of wall functionality: NOT HAVING BRUSHES ON STICKS to clean off the higher holds - this means you @manchesterdepotclimbing . The person who made that decision should be taken to a normal wall that does have brushes on sticks, get one inserted Vlad-The-Impaler style, and have their face used to clean the toilets.
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Another completely unacceptable sin against decency and any form of wall functionality: NOT HAVING BRUSHES ON STICKS to clean off the higher holds - this means you @manchesterdepotclimbing . The person who made that decision should be taken to a normal wall that does have brushes on sticks, get one inserted Vlad-The-Impaler style, and have their face used to clean the toilets.
We do, however, I had a complaint once; because someone was convinced they were going to end up impaled as you described, while someone else was using it...
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Hmmm yes. Might need an extended 12 minute video on brush-stick ettiquette. Preferably in full VR.
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As Fiend has opened the "unacceptable wall (proprietor) behaviour" door...a rant I was going to post recently after a visit to [wall name redacted] about modern gymnastic / run and jump / ninja warrior stylee setting.
It's not the setting itself - in fact I quite like it, and enjoy getting forced out of my comfort zone of 20 years of "grab and pull".
But please, pleeeeeaaassse - if you're setting this kind of thing, don't put the jump / balancey bit right over / around a load of V0 punter jugs, or even worse leave the space on the wall for said move, then subsequently set a load of V0 punter jugs in the space afterwards.
[Wall redacted] had 2 or 3 great problems of this style in the V5-7 range, every one of them totally ruined by having to negotiate your way round, avoid dabbing or mitigate the risk of spannering yourself on an adjacent easy problem's hold.
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Please remove your very hard and very rolly water bottle death traps from the lovely soft(ish) mats :chair:
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I've taken to just picking them up and taking them off the mats now.
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Btw I didn't start the unacceptable wall proprieter theme, I think that was petejh grumbling about the exhorbitant prices and funding OMM's fleet of Bentleys...
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There is a FB group called Routsetter’s anonymous.
It’s quite an interesting group, uniting setters and wall owners etc, worldwide. Often some interesting stuff.
Anyway, one Auzzie member just had a job application turned down at a new Melborne wall.
I fucking spat my tea!
I felt angry, let alone the applicant.
She posted a screen shot of her rejection email:
(https://i.ibb.co/M9rtMMD/0-CAA5-B97-C2-A7-4-B4-A-BC05-166-D1-E23-B241.jpg)
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Awww, the little lady's pretty head wouldn't understand the needs of the big strong men. Better off doing some knitting.
:chair:
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Shiiiiiit!!!
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bloody hell that is a grim read :o
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:thumbsdown:
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I hope she sues.
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I hope she sues.
A-friggin-men.
The thread:
🤯 (https://m.facebook.com/groups/routesettersanonymous/permalink/10156941879771848?sfns=mo)
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I predict an entire ostrich egg omelette on face for that wall... :slap: Even regardless of the cringe-worthy sexism, it's perfectly possible for a good setter to set for a standard above their own and different body shapes with a bit of nouse and experience.
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Surely that can't be real?
An attempt at a joke? Someone not logged out and a 'mate' playing wind-up?
Either way a massive FFS. :thumbsdown:
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I note the original thread has been taken down.
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Surely that can't be real?
I take it you haven't seen Australian television?
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Ha, I see your point......
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Surely that can't be real?
I take it you haven't seen Australian television?
Which is alot better than it used to be...
But when I first watched Aussie TV 10-15 years back I was very surprised at the levels of casual racism and swearing that were on fairly prime time slots. Much of it comedy though (is sattire an excuse?) - Fat Pizza is funny...
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Only one wall shows up in Pascoe Vale , Gravity Worx and they posted this:
Gravity Worx
Yesterday at 05:23 ·
IMPORTANT NOTICE
Our Head Coach Moriah has been a victim of bullying through phone and email.
The circumstances are bizarre and we believe the bullying to be a nasty hoax!
We encourage climbers to not share the email screen shot that has been circulating as Coach Moriah has received concerning responses.
Coach Moriah explained that “I was contacted via phone with a job offer and then told I wasn’t good enough for the job as I am female! This kind of blatant bullying is never ok and no one could ever discourage me from Coaching and Route Setting because I absolutely LOVE my job. I’m just glad I have such a supportive community at Gravity Worx who have looked after me.”
That sound is the sound of white knights unsaddlling their chargers.
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I didn't want to comment but it seemed very fake. Knowing a little bit about IT I know how easy it is to fake things like that. Either by spoofing/hacking an email account, Photo-shopping the image / screenshot, or things like text editing a web entry. Or as it turns out it could be a total hoax ala child on pile of coats in hospital. A photo tells 100 lies and all that.
Must have been a heck of a fun 5mins for the social media outrage junkies though! :2thumbsup:
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https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/health/do-not-believe-a-stranger-on-social-media-who-disappears-into-the-night-an-open-letter-from-our-editor-to-you-1-10147697
Off topic, but Please see the above in relation to the boy in the hospital photo. It wasn't faked, and the contention that it was is fake news.
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Back on topic, dickheads who are clearly into parkour or something getting halfway up a jughaul through roof on the bouldering area, and then doing a stupid backflip or something off a pair of jugs, then looking round to see if anyone is impressed. Then taking it in turns to see who can do the best landing. Just fuck off. And those super baggy cotton trackies make you look like a twat.
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Good call.
Also people who don't match the finishing holds and don't show the slightest bit of shame. Disgusting.
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I didn't want to comment but it seemed very fake. Knowing a little bit about IT I know how easy it is to fake things like that. Either by spoofing/hacking an email account, Photo-shopping the image / screenshot, or things like text editing a web entry. Or as it turns out it could be a total hoax ala child on pile of coats in hospital. A photo tells 100 lies and all that.
Must have been a heck of a fun 5mins for the social media outrage junkies though! :2thumbsup:
But you’re wrong on both counts.
The boy on the coats? Not faked, fact checked and Tory party chairman insisting all candidates that shared the fake “outing”, apologise.
The email to the female setter, was not the product of hacking, nor mocked up by her. The statement implies the entire job offer, phone call and email rejection, was an elaborate hoax.
I spoke/ messaged her before posting here, before she knew it was a hoax. The original set up, was that there was a new wall opening in the city and the phone call was to offer her the position at the new gym.
I am unclear as to why Winhill believes that the bullying and sexism is less valid, in this instance?
Or, why he thinks defending others is in any way to be deplored?
Perhaps you need to take a good hard look in the mirror? You come across as quite the scrooge.
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You have successfully completely missed my point, which was:
After taking a mere glance at that picture there were a multitude of possibilities all of which were massively more likely than it being a legitimate reply, from a potential employer.
So I wasn't going to get reeled in to expressing my shock and outrage for something that seemed a little off. :fishing:
Some of the things I mentioned are just there for consideration or for educational purposes when ever presented with similar screenshots or images, with no real provable background. People should think and consider their legitimacy or purpose before jumping on the outrage bandwagon.
Thanks for pulling the ultimate argumentative power move of throwing a hail mary Ad hominem attack in my direction though, always a good tactic. Next time just call me a Nazi / Communist / Anti-semite there is no comeback from that sort of accusation :thumbsup:
In no shape or manor did I condone this apparent hoax, which needless to say i do not, nor do i find it in the slightest bit amusing and hope if possible the idiots responsible face some kind of retribution for their actions! If anything I was passing judgment on those who were so eager to jump on the bandwagon they didn't stop to question it's authenticity - this class of person I can't help but find a little amusing.
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Hmmmm...
Nope.
You’re conflating the first part of my post (response to you Crzylgs) and the second part which I addressed to Winhill.
Who deserved the ad hominem. It’s an Internet forum, plenty of that here.
On the other hand, your perpetuating of the loudly debunked (and apologised for) implication that the boy on the floor was a faked photo, is worthy of response.
In both cases you appear to have skimmed and dismissed, without digging, then jumped in with condemnation of people trying to help. Which is most certainly ad hominem, incidentally; since it was directed at me and the small group of wall owners who intervened to help. Three from the UK, including myself.
She was quite upset.
So, on balance, I think you can take your indignation and self righteous amusement and shove it where the sun don’t shine (it’s a small valley in the northern slopes of Snowdon, I’ll send you the grid ref).
I’m always happy to be be slagged off for trying to help someone in trouble, as am I happy to return such.
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Saw a new one today which made me laugh. A guy was practicing his juggling between attempts.
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:wall: :spank: :chair:
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I didn't want to comment but it seemed very fake. Knowing a little bit about IT I know how easy it is to fake things like that. Either by spoofing/hacking an email account, Photo-shopping the image / screenshot, or things like text editing a web entry. Or as it turns out it could be a total hoax ala child on pile of coats in hospital. A photo tells 100 lies and all that.
Must have been a heck of a fun 5mins for the social media outrage junkies though! :2thumbsup:
But you’re wrong on both counts.
The boy on the coats? Not faked, fact checked and Tory party chairman insisting all candidates that shared the fake “outing”, apologise.
The email to the female setter, was not the product of hacking, nor mocked up by her. The statement implies the entire job offer, phone call and email rejection, was an elaborate hoax.
I spoke/ messaged her before posting here, before she knew it was a hoax. The original set up, was that there was a new wall opening in the city and the phone call was to offer her the position at the new gym.
I am unclear as to why Winhill believes that the bullying and sexism is less valid, in this instance?
Or, why he thinks defending others is in any way to be deplored?
Perhaps you need to take a good hard look in the mirror? You come across as quite the scrooge.
I’m not going to sit back and just accept the shit from people who don’t publicly wish to state their opposition to this statement.
Crzylgs misunderstood my post above, I only addressed the refutation of his claims, to him and then addressed Winhill’s attack on me. I called Winhill a scrooge, because he mockinly called me a “White knight” for getting involved. I hardly think Scrooge is a massive insult and it seemed the appropriate opposite to the “White knight”.
Honestly, I found the (to paraphrase) “Ha Ha, you’re and idiot for believing Moirah, because pictures on the internet are so easily faked” thing, in the same paragraph that the poster perpetuates a widely debunked (several days before) rumour that a picture of a boy on coats in a hospital and uses that myth to justify his criticism of me believing in an internet picture etc etc, pretty galling. How does no one else?
I am not going to apologise for trying to help, Crzylgs and if you call me an idiot, why am I not allowed to clap back? Pipesmoke? Dan?
I understand Winhill doesn’t give a shit what anyone thinks.
Pipesmoke, I am sorry you find my stating of the truth and my style of writing/speaking offensive.
I can’t really change that at this stage in life. But I’m not going to enter into a puntter war with you.
Dan, you I will, because I’m not going to be told to stop banging on after two posts and I don’t believe you even read the thread before it was deleted and didn’t know what it was actually about.
As I said. If you want a flame war or wish to keep slapping at me, carry on. Nothing I said was incorrect.
(Except the Snowdon thing, but, fuck sake, that was a joke).
I know what’s coming.
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Saw a couple set up and play their own music at the indoor wall on their iphone. And we wonder why they think doing it outside is not ok...
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Saw a couple set up and play their own music at the indoor wall on their iphone. And we wonder why they think doing it outside is not ok...
Don't give Fiend ideas.... :) He'll be bringing in his bluetooth speaker next and playing gabba topless..
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Saw a couple set up and play their own music at the indoor wall on their iphone. And we wonder why they think doing it outside is not ok...
:guilty:
I used to do this quite a lot when I climbed at a wall without any music, I don't think its unacceptable unless your taste in music is utterly unpalatable to the general population or you refuse to turn it off!
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Saw a couple set up and play their own music at the indoor wall on their iphone. And we wonder why they think doing it outside is not ok...
Don't give Fiend ideas.... :) He'll be bringing in his bluetooth speaker next and playing gabba topless..
TBH if someone set up a speaker and played music at Awesome Stockport, no matter how bad it was it would very likely be infinitely better than their dire stream of constant indie-bland greatest hits of rock-lite muzak :sick: :shit:
Also as you'd expect from my kind, peaceful, and well-balanced personality, I've never proposed that the extremes of music (mine or anyone else's) should be in regular rotation at a wall. But it should at least be something vaguely energetic, cheerful, and balanced. I always liked The Works' well balanced selection of accessible techno, house, mild rap, bit of reggae and trip-hop etc etc.
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Since Dave took over the music at the Substation there has been loads of Happy Mondays, Stone Roses, Buffalo Springfield, Crosby Stills Nash and Young, 60s and 70s rock..excellent. Just needs a bit of JJ Cale and Stevie Ray Vaughan to be perfect.
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Shitting fuck I'm glad I've missed those times, it would be a shame to have to boycott a rather nice wall because my ears are trying to tear themselves off the side of my skull and run into the A523 to die. They've usually had a nice selection of chilled stuff with a bit of mellow jungle and old skool when I've been there. Thank fuck.
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Saw a couple set up and play their own music at the indoor wall on their iphone. And we wonder why they think doing it outside is not ok...
:guilty:
I used to do this quite a lot when I climbed at a wall without any music, I don't think its unacceptable unless your taste in music is utterly unpalatable to the general population or you refuse to turn it off!
The boulder gym in Meringen CH has a headphone lead that heads to amp and speakers, so you can happily plug into their system. Since everyone is usually in the rope hall, you can pretty much play what you want.
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Saw a couple set up and play their own music at the indoor wall on their iphone. And we wonder why they think doing it outside is not ok...
:guilty:
I used to do this quite a lot when I climbed at a wall without any music, I don't think its unacceptable unless your taste in music is utterly unpalatable to the general population or you refuse to turn it off!
The boulder gym in Meringen CH has a headphone lead that heads to amp and speakers, so you can happily plug into their system. Since everyone is usually in the rope hall, you can pretty much play what you want.
Yeah, we have that in the training room. There’s a Bluetooth hookup too.
This means we have to be on the ball, when there are kids in the place. You really don’t notice how much “Explicit” music there is, until you spot an unsuspecting family heading towards a regular cranking out circuits on the Lattice.
Anyway, someone complained and I’m not allowed to put System of a Down on a shuffle with Rage Against the Machine anymore.
Do you know what the young lads that run the place when I’m not in play? ‘80s pop and Queen ffs. People request that shit!
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A friend of mine once declared that Queen would have been much more interesting if they'd used heroin instead of poppers......
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Shitting fuck I'm glad I've missed those times, it would be a shame to have to boycott a rather nice wall because my ears are trying to tear themselves off the side of my skull and run into the A523 to die.
I hear ya. I’ve asked him to put aside a bit of Neil Sedaka and the Carpenters for next time you’re in.
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A friend of mine once declared that Queen would have been much more interesting if they'd used heroin instead of poppers......
Who, Queen or your friend?
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Did you hack into the Subby playlist today JR?? It was mostly dire, albeit quietly so. And the setters drilling and hammering away was more my style.
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Did you hack into the Subby playlist today JR?? It was mostly dire, albeit quietly so. And the setters drilling and hammering away was more my style.
Was there no dry rock out there today Fiendski?
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Did you hack into the Subby playlist today JR?? It was mostly dire, albeit quietly so. And the setters drilling and hammering away was more my style.
Was there no dry rock out there today Fiendski?
Nope.
Only Soft or Indy.
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Knob :) you nearly deserve a wad for that 😃
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Why is shirtless climbing at the top of the list of issues? People here very much need to get their priorities in order.
I think people who don't switch from ther climbing shoes when going to the toilet, and thus spread toilet germs everywhere are far far worse offenders.
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Because tomtom is a sensitive wee soul :whistle:
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Oh boy!
I’m just glad you guys weren’t around for the “Barefoot climbing” debate/argument, I had to referee a couple ofweeks ago.
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Because tomtom is a sensitive wee soul :whistle:
I thought we’d agreed that you’d wear nipple tape next time. 😍
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Why is shirtless climbing at the top of the list of issues? People here very much need to get their priorities in order.
I think people who don't switch from ther climbing shoes when going to the toilet, and thus spread toilet germs everywhere are far far worse offenders.
How about barefoot in the toilet - which I’ve seen a few times.
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I / we hadn’t really thought about it. It’s not a common thing.
The guy who complained most certainly had a good point and we actually made a rule.
The irony was, I went into the training room to tell him this, the next time he came in, to find him barefoot.
Because he prefers training barefoot.
Right next to people doing press-ups and floor exercises on the same mats/flooring.
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Why is shirtless climbing at the top of the list of issues? People here very much need to get their priorities in order.
I think people who don't switch from ther climbing shoes when going to the toilet, and thus spread toilet germs everywhere are far far worse offenders.
How about barefoot in the toilet - which I’ve seen a few times.
worse is not washing hands!
https://www.climbing.com/news/study-finds-fecal-veneer-on-gym-holds/
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Dammit, I've started monitoring people's chalked up hands coming out of the lavs now. Previously oblivious to the pissholds issue.
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The veneer is (according to article) most likely animal shit that climbers track in from outdoors. Should people have indoor only shoes :jab:
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Its common sense to wash my hands after climbing and not to lick the holds.
I don't see any issue with barefoot climbing.
The hygiene argument is total bunkum, I bet that there are fewer pathogens on feet than on my hands because they spend the majority of their time protected by socks and shoes.
If anyone has a problem with the sight of bare feet at a climbing wall, do they ever to a public swimming pool?
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I'd assume climbers feet are on average, much worse than normal feet though?
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Not sure in hygiene terms how putting your hands on holds that lots of other climbers have touched is so very different to putting your hands on supermarket trolley handles that other shoppers have touched frankly. Lower frequency of contact, but not so dissimilar really.
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Surely you just wear gloves at the supermarket? (Or use baskets for gainz)
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The veneer is (according to article) most likely animal shit that climbers track in from outdoors. Should people have indoor only shoes :jab:
Or Almscliff only shoes..
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Whenever I've seen folk climb barefoot it's been after they've taken shoes off and their feet are a sweaty, slimey mess. Then they stand on (massive) holds and make them slimey and unappealing.
And usually just to show off
"Uh yeah, I jsut did that problem barefoot"
"It's a 4 you twat"
" "
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I don't see a problem with people climbing barefoot. I have more of a problem with people showboating in their approach shoes that are covered in dogshit.
Ban tops off, swearing really loudly, being angry man and generally being a wanker as well.
(I have eczema and when it's really bad I have to lick my hands loads. Gross, I know).
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Ban tops off, swearing really loudly, being angry man and generally being a wanker as well.
Hang on, are we talking about walls or Shark redpointing at Malham? :lol:
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I wasn't thinking of Shark actually, but someone at the Works who apparently took offence at my 6 year old climbing bare foot.
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Pity those of us in north Wales where climbing walls don't have hot water in the toilets. :sick:
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Pity those of us in north Wales where climbing walls don't have hot water in the toilets. :sick:
Hand sanitiser chalk? Business opportunity?
Bit of quicklime in the mix... Where’s the harm.
Anyway, I just had to mop up Lake Victoria #2. How does a grown adult male, actually miss entirely? I reckon this was hands free job.