[cheque]

When I first started climbing walls were essentially indoor crags, so they were treated as such. Now they are probably better classified as a leisure facility, with far greater diversity of customers.

This is a distillation of this whole thread isn’t it? In the time that we all started climbing, rock climbers have gone from being the main customers of public climbing walls to not even their main target market and we’re having to adapt to that.

[bigironhorse]

Have to say that I agree with pretty much everything Barrows has said here. I don't like the idea of making people uncomfortable, but at the same time I don't see why the majority of climbers, who seem to be okay with shirts off, should change their behaviour to suit the vanishingly small minority who might have have a problem with it.

[reeve]

When I first started climbing walls were essentially indoor crags, so they were treated as such. Now they are probably better classified as a leisure facility, with far greater diversity of customers.

This is a distillation of this whole thread isn’t it? In the time that we all started climbing, rock climbers have gone from being the main customers of public climbing walls to not even their main target market and we’re having to adapt to that.

Adapt... or resist!

[tomtom]

This is all from a Male perspective so far. Would be nice to hear from any women who may post here what they think?

[Oldmanmatt]

This is all from a Male perspective so far. Would be nice to hear from any women who may post here what they think?

They can’t stop laughing long enough to type...

After an eternity of being forced to cover your chest, even when it’s being used for it’s evolved purpose, until the last decade or less (when some relief has begun to show), it must be hysterically funny to witness a bunch of blokes having an angst attack about showing their nipples...

[tomtom]

This is all from a Male perspective so far. Would be nice to hear from any women who may post here what they think?

They can’t stop laughing long enough to type...

😂😂😂

[Fiend]

Christ this was a fucking riot wasn't it.

1. Climbing Hangar - warm day, warmed up in my Cattle Decapitation vest, took it off as soon as I got hot enough that it was inhibiting my climbing. Got told to put it back on. Asked to see the manager. Asked for the reason, no reason than a blanket policy. Asked what would happen if I persisted. He said I'd be asked to leave and offered a refund. I agreed to that. He was shocked but did it anyway. TBH as much as I don't want to give walls like that my business, I'm not proud of the negativity of the situation.

2. Incidentally the only two walls I can remember enforcing a tops-on policy are EICA Ratho and Transition Aberdeen, both of which are owned / managed higher up by non-climbing companies. None of the other walls I know managed by dedicated climbers have done it. But obviously I haven't been to every wall, just 35 or so.

3. Offwidth. All I know is the strict facts as to what actually happens with me climbing all the time, indoors and outdoors. I have a variety of lightweight and normal vests that I have on and off warming up, doing easy climbs, resting between attempts etc, and I invariably get better conditions on my hands without a top on. If it helps my body is not massively sweaty and dripping everywhere, so maybe that is where the misapplication of the research applies - it's all about my hand sweating and keeping my body cool enough to reduce that.

4. As has been said by many people, part of the issue seems to be other issues going along with going shirtless: posing, preening, flexing, showboating, boisterousness, laddishness, large groups etc. I agree that this could be offputting (along with other aspects of behaviour like excess shouting, screaming, swearing etc, or especially being a dour grumpy cunt). As before a better course of action is to tackle the BEHAVIOUR before the attire. I'm sure based on anecotes in this thread and more that people can be offputting arseholes irrespective of their clothing, OR friendly affable and respectful irrespective of their clothing. P.S. re-reading what reeve said, I do put the effort in if I am climbing shirtless around non-climbers, families, newer people etc, to be extra polite and courteous (obviously what you'd expect from Fiend anyway ahem). For the reasons mentioned.

5. Incidentally at Transition, I was climbing with the Lyons, after I got bollocked and had to put my vest back on, whilst she was able to continue climbing with a sports bra (perhaps 1/3 or less of the flesh coverage of a vest), and believe me her 6 pack could cut through marble and the sight of it could send OAPs away screaming. P.S. I very much support and encourage women to wear sports bras as the bare minimum of clothing to fit in with the basic decency level in Western society if it is more effective for their climbing / training.

6. Incidentally I have been pondering on the most unacceptable (as in actually inhibitive or genuinely offensive) behaviour I've encountered, appalling music aside. I think it's been people setting off after you on problems / routes that intersect yours, or getting in the way when your at a crucial lower percentage dynamic move right at the top of your problem - invariably on the crucial redpoint attempt after many sessions and getting exactly the right beta, resting time, clothing or lack thereof...

[gardinrm]

Despite the unbelievable mugginess today, I went to the wall. One of the hottest I've ever been inside. It was disgusting, I'm not proud of how i looked, smelt or climbed.

Despite said conditions there were only a handful of people climbing topless in the wall (and it was packed)! I reckon around 6 or 7 in total. This might suggest that actually the majority of people would prefer to climb with tops on and that if the wall were to decide on a blanket ban it might not cause that much of a fuss.

On another note, one guy was climbing in black skinny jeans. Not stretch ones either. On a day like today! Just looking at him made me even hotter, climb worser and be sadderer.

[petekitso]

I never take my top off at the wall. I would like to pretend that’s because I am sensitive to the needs of others but it’s probably just because I would feel too self conscious, even today when my T-shirt felt like a dishcloth after five minutes.

If I had the chiselled physique of an eighth grade wad I would not only climb top off but also walk to the wall top off and expect a round of applause when I got there.

The main unacceptable wall behaviour is being given unsolicited beta by some overexcited gym bunny who had just clawed their way up a v. 2. All other bad behaviours pale in comparison.

[Offwidth]

"Offwidth. All I know is the strict facts as to what actually happens with me climbing all the time,"

None of us 'know' this, we build internal narratives and believe them, thats human psychology 101, even if we are right. I never had an issue with your honesty, nor you fiery rhetoric (pure UKB Fiend), just your certainty for the rest of us (it reminds me of the well intentioned zealotry of the old clean hang gang). Even sad to see you booted out for the rule...but its a commercial decision walls have the right to make and I think will grow. On really hot indoor days its best to relax and accept performance won't be optimum, shirt or none. I have no 'nipple concerns' but respect others who might have.

I'm still a bit perplexed reeve has never seem sweat drips hit a bouldering mat...maybe a good sign he has more sense than to be indoors in such conditions. Monday night in Nottm depot was a doozy for that... as bad as I've seen it but at least the wall was quiet and the deodorant aerosol overuse crowd were absent.... and top and long trousers on I was chuffed to make progress on some problems, something one might think was impossible for anyone given the fuss some make about heat (yes I'm an outlier in some of my concerns and certainly so in that very few fat older geezers boulder... and to be fair  I always found weights gyms a lot worse for sweat stink and deodorant aerosols (that make me gag)... maybe my age group should stop being so nice that we wouldn't normally take tops off... a good bit of older near nude indoor bouldering, maybe with some serious but non infectious skin conditions, might help us focus on just how enlighted some of these young, ripped, top-off, boulderers really are ;-)

[36chambers]

Is anyone else's instagram feed just full of topless men flexing their bodies?

I thought stripping down and flexing was the social norm nowadays?

[spidermonkey09]

What was that line of Foley's?

"I'm only here for the homoerotic flexfest."

[Plattsy]

If walls want a blanket ban that's fine. They could also then consider how they'll maintain appropriate conditions (temperature/humidity etc) throughout the facility so that everyone can feel comfortable all the time.That's the overall idea isn't it.

[Plattsy]

And as Pete has already opened the "bad wall owner's behaviour" door.

Should owner take responsibility for the quality and appropriateness of the problems/routes they set?

Should owners follow up with injured customers to ensure the initial injury assessment conducted at the time is still accurate?

[NaoB]

This is all from a Male perspective so far. Would be nice to hear from any women who may post here what they think?

I doubt a female opinion would provide much resolution - we're likely to be as split in our views on this topic as the rest of you.

Personally, I have no problem with people climbing topless and women in sports bras. Having shaped my training mentality firstly at barden bouldering wall, and then the Blackburn incarnation of buk, trying hard was the norm and tops off helped a lot. Offwidth, the idea of going to the wall in long pants and shirt sounds like handicapping yourself in terms of performance. I have tested the process many times and truly do find I have more success stripping off to a sports top when it's hot.

However.... 80% of the time I climb in a vest, I'm actually a little bit shy about my body so I only take the vest off if I feel it is necessary. I'm certainly not parading it to intimidate anyone.

I for one would find it off putting to climb at a wall that had a shirts on policy enforced, unless they happened to have an awesome cooling system. Thankfully all the walls I train at are run by real climbers who understand the mentality of wanting to push hard, or else what's the point??

[moose]

Offwidth, the idea of going to the wall in long pants and shirt sounds like handicapping yourself in terms of performance.

So, that's why I'm so crap! Good news in way though; if I can only muster the self-confidence to abandon my shirt, ticklist crushage will ensue!  I'm already taking baby-steps towards semi-nude rock mastery - this summer heat has forced me to wear shorts for the first time since I was at school, around 25 years ago (swimming pools excepted).

[tommytwotone]

Had forgotten about this one:


https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,18890.0.html

[tomtom]

So had I!!

[tommytwotone]

I seem to recall saying similar to someone at the time, but I did consider getting a t-shirt made with a photorealistic all-over image of my upper body printed on it, specifically for any wall with a "shirt on" policy.

Fiend - maybe you should try it!

[Serpico]

I seem to recall saying similar to someone at the time, but I did consider getting a t-shirt made with a photorealistic all-over image of my upper body printed on it, specifically for any wall with a "shirt on" policy.

Fiend - maybe you should try it!

Surely an upper body photorealistic tattoo of a tee shirt is a better solution for Fiend?

[Fiend]

Genius!!

[tomtom]

Can we collectively design a T-shirt/vest for you Fiend?

[finbarrr]

also , when is a top a top?
the climbing gym my friends usually climb at has "tops on" policy.
i've been meaning to get a "top" like this for years:
https://www.asos.com/asos-design/asos-string-vest/prd/6140229

never got around to actually order one

[Oldmanmatt]

And as Pete has already opened the "bad wall owner's behaviour" door.

Should owner take responsibility for the quality and appropriateness of the problems/routes they set?

Should owners follow up with injured customers to ensure the initial injury assessment conducted at the time is still accurate?

I’m sorry, are you suggesting that wall staff conduct injury assessment/diagnosis and are then responsible for recovery from that injury?

And what do you mean by “appropriateness of problem”?

[steveri]

Technical fabric and the <10% body fat look: https://www.flickr.com/photos/tomasz_pietek_lazur/21090279526