UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: gme on February 03, 2015, 03:33:16 pm
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Is this an important exercise ?
I can barely do one on bars and nowhere near on rings, in fact i am so shit at them that the only reason to attempt them is to give others something to laugh at. So I am interested in if its worth working on them as it seems to be an obvious weakness of mine.
I have a limited amount of time to do conditioning stuff so I might as well focus on the stuff that has the biggest effect on my climbing. I am also shit at one arm lock offs (cant do one on a bar) but this seems an obvious thing to work on as it crosses over to climbing, where as dips doesn't.
Thoughts please?
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Don't bother, they're really good for mantles that's about it related to climbing. If you can't do them they'll take a lot out of you and you won't have enough energy for the 3 moon boards you train on ;)
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If your shit at locking off on a bar dips will help as it directly trains the antagonistic muscle which is possibly whats letting you down.
In other words yes, start by doing half dips and progress deeper each session as you feel able to.
I wouldn't say your shit at dips its just an exercise that you haven't tried much because you find it hard. It won't make you climb three letter grades harder but it won't make you worse either.
Also try negatives for improving lock off strength (step up and hang in a fully locked position then let yourself down as slowly and in control as possible all the way to the bottom palms out - repeat) Progrees to one arm negatives if you find these really easy.
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Don't bother, they're really good for mantles that's about it related to climbing. If you can't do them they'll take a lot out of you and you won't have enough energy for the 3 moon boards you train on ;)
Yeah...
But....
They are the most obvious exercise for your (antagonist) Tricep.
They are useful for developing/maintaining shoulder stability.
Press ups could be a less specific substitute.
It's hard to argue against, at least, building up to being able to do two or three dips.
That won't take long, if you start by doing them with your feet supported (but not loaded, ie, between two chairs).
Couple of minutes, every other day?
Throw in ten/twenty Press ups at the end of every board session and you'll be a "God Damned Sexual Tyrannosaurus" with a couple of months....
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They are useful for developing/maintaining shoulder stability.
+1
I found at times when I did a lot of pull ups, my shoulders got sore pretty quickly. When I did equal amounts of pull ups and dips my shoulders were fine.
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They are the most obvious exercise for your tricep but I figured Gav didn't want tricep slabs, I'd put press ups first for antagonist stuff. As in dips are harder to get into, take more out of you physically. They are excellent stabilisers, but not if you can only do 3!
With relation to climbing, as an example, last time someone was going on about dips being amazing, possibly 3mths ish ago possibly in fight (power) club. I thought I've not done dips for years. Went to virgin, did a load of t-rex stuff then did 23 dips, stopped cos I was bored, backhanded the girlfriend and strolled into the sauna naked with an erection. Ok the last 2 may or may not have happened like some peoples ticks at a comp where you judge yourself. The point I'm trying to make is Gav's seen me climb and I can do loads of dips, do you want to put the effort in for dips and still climb like me?
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I'd say an inability to do any dips, speaks of a weakness and that means potential for injury.
Topping out/manteling is part of climbing, something that tends to happen at the wrong (tired) end of a Bloc/route and fairly unavoidable.
Press ups don't quite hit the mark, for the shoulders.
There has to be a good argument for maintaining some balance in the muscle chains of the arms, for both Elbows and shoulders.
The difference in injury potential between not being able to do any dips and doing two or three, is immense.
No, cranking out a thousand one arm dips in a 10 kg weight vest is probably pointless (though I'd definitely buy you a pint, for sheer awesomeness).
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Original Music Video Da Dip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZPQdZLyHYE#)
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yes, they're excellent, try also doing square leg raises when your arms are locked out, dipping with your legs out then lowering your legs, rising and repeat.
Also try dips with your palms out, brutal but very good for those weird moves
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Is this an important exercise ?
I can barely do one on bars and nowhere near on rings, in fact i am so shit at them that the only reason to attempt them is to give others something to laugh at. So I am interested in if its worth working on them as it seems to be an obvious weakness of mine.
I have a limited amount of time to do conditioning stuff so I might as well focus on the stuff that has the biggest effect on my climbing. I am also shit at one arm lock offs (cant do one on a bar) but this seems an obvious thing to work on as it crosses over to climbing, where as dips doesn't.
Thoughts please?
I feel like they are important, and are much more climbing related than pressups. When you do a deep lock (hand below shoulder) you engage the tricep extensively to continue that push. Dips are perfect for this. I know that I do this type of movement quite often when climbing.
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When you talk about shoulder stability what exactly do you mean?
I find that my shoulders and neck tend to be a bit hunched forward, and think ths is leading to pain in my shoulders - is having good shoulder stability something that corrects posture?
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When you talk about shoulder stability what exactly do you mean?
I find that my shoulders and neck tend to be a bit hunched forward, and think ths is leading to pain in my shoulders - is having good shoulder stability something that corrects posture?
Really, it's about strengthening ALL of the shoulder muscles, including those under the superficial (bulging) muscles that you see. Muscles like the Rotator cuff and others that are responsible for holding the joint together and in alignment.
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/03/44558efaab94af5a7ddab0e7c221a752.jpg)
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/03/0657267a097b9ea69a28f7dc3957081a.jpg)
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/03/b97c39b6394f68438948af756edba1d1.jpg)
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/02/03/6ff723e07e1a3e65166ea6ea48809402.jpg)
If you have posture issues, it is entirely possible that you need to balance out the strength around the joint.
Climbing works the back more than the front (over simplification) of the shoulder joint, pulling it out of alignment.
This is why it's so important to work/build/strengthen the Antagonist muscles (those that perform the opposite action to the ones mainly engaged in climbing).
See how the Bicep heads pull across the joint? And how the Tricep heads counter that?
Over developing one, puts too much stress on the joint.
If you can do 10 pull ups, but no dips; you have a poorly loaded joint and it's going to get injured.
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:agree:
Though my chuffed wrists make me avoid dips, wish I could do em for balence.
Press ups do help, IMHO. But I'd prefer to get better at dips.
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Great answer, thanks.
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What a strange thing, people saying dips are good yet poo-pooing rings on the other thread. I can't get my head around it, bizarre
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What a strange thing, people saying dips are good yet poo-pooing rings on the other thread. I can't get my head around it, bizarre
Not me ! 😉
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Nor I, Dense it's also worth pointing out that your ability to lock off on a bar is good, and you can do loads of dips. So if someone says they aren't good at doing dips and struggles to lock off on a bar perhaps we can build some correlation between the two :ras:
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You've spelt exceptional wrong ;)
I spoke to glassback about this earlier and did point out that it might be a case of someone being able to do something and saying it's no use since he can do it, much as I thought when I was saying that all the good/best climbers have very good hip mobility yet claim to not be flexible. Strange thing training, takes all sorts I suppose
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Can we step back a minute. Of climbing mainly works the back muscles, this pulling the shoulder out of alignment we'd all have exaggeratedly pulled-back shoulders, but we don't, we're mostly rounded like vultures.
There are many exercises and regimes that can help address the imbalance, but you need to know what is causing the imbalance in the first place. There is no single golden bullet exercise that you can just get your head down and get on with that will stabilise your shoulders, if they are indeed unbalanced to start with.
Some people have very tight pecs and doing pressups can help to release release them, thus slightly correcting posture. That doesn't mean that after 20 weeks of doing pressups the situation will improve further, you may actually tighten and knot the buggers right up again.
Just take it easy folks, always analyse what you are doing and why (if ) it is having any impact on you.
I realise you probably all do that anyway, but I haven't half received some shit advice over the years.
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Hence my "oversimplification" caveat...
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Dips are incredible for overall shoulder stability and pure strength. If you really are struggling that much with them even on say parallel bars or paralettes and it's not a body composition thing then you really should get into them as you are lacking any strength/stability in that plane of motion. Once you can do dips and if you have access to rings try and do muscle-ups on a regular basis. They are absolutely brutal and amazing for shoulders/core.
Fittest I've ever been (And some of the best bouldering I've done) was when I was doing fairly regular gymnastics exercises on rings/floor, at one point I could do 7 muscle-ups in a row in a strict L sit :2thumbsup:
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Lots of conflicting answers there. I am aware that dips would be good as an overall shoulder stability thing to prevent injury but in 30 years of climbing and training a lot i have never had any problems with shoulders or elbows. My posture isnt great but its not that bad really.
I am more interested in whether my total inability to do dips is holding back my climbing. The mantling thing isn't an issue, i think thats all technique, but my lock of strength is and wondering whether the dips thing is connected.
Looking at my climbing now and in the past i have always been poor at press moves and really deep locks. I could do one armers but, unlike most, found the top of the movement (getting my chin over my hand) much harder than the lower (straight arm- hand to forehead height). Poor on campus board (1.4.7 occasionally) and found no difference in performance between the biggest and smallest rungs.
As we never really did any rings or core stuff years ago its only now i have become aware how utterly shit I am at dips and was wondering if there is a connection.
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[/quote]
I feel like they are important, and are much more climbing related than pressups. When you do a deep lock (hand below shoulder) you engage the tricep extensively to continue that push. Dips are perfect for this. I know that I do this type of movement quite often when climbing.
[/quote]
This seems the only comment that suggests a link. Are they a part of your training? Do you just do standard dips or other things to work the same muscles.
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(http://iluvcrossfit.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/jan-13885698704kn8g.jpg)
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Saw lagers had posted and got excited that he'd somehow shoehorned a tahini/cheese and chive reference into the thread...
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Lots of conflicting answers there. I am aware that dips would be good as an overall shoulder stability thing to prevent injury but in 30 years of climbing and training a lot i have never had any problems with shoulders or elbows. My posture isnt great but its not that bad really.
I am more interested in whether my total inability to do dips is holding back my climbing. The mantling thing isn't an issue, i think thats all technique, but my lock of strength is and wondering whether the dips thing is connected.
Looking at my climbing now and in the past i have always been poor at press moves and really deep locks. I could do one armers but, unlike most, found the top of the movement (getting my chin over my hand) much harder than the lower (straight arm- hand to forehead height). Poor on campus board (1.4.7 occasionally) and found no difference in performance between the biggest and smallest rungs.
As we never really did any rings or core stuff years ago its only now i have become aware how utterly shit I am at dips and was wondering if there is a connection.
I'm also poor at the top part of a one armer, but that's just because I'm weak through that part of the movement. Dips hit way beyond that part of the movement so don't really help with that.
I find Dips pretty easy though, but I have trex arms.
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No excuse for me on arm length as I have a negative 2 inch ape index. So I should have an advantage.
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I feel like they are important, and are much more climbing related than pressups. When you do a deep lock (hand below shoulder) you engage the tricep extensively to continue that push. Dips are perfect for this. I know that I do this type of movement quite often when climbing.
This seems the only comment that suggests a link. Are they a part of your training? Do you just do standard dips or other things to work the same muscles.
Yes-Sometimes. As an add-on at the end of the workouts during my 4 week FB and 4 week campus cycle, I do additional strength training. Part of my decision on what strength training I'll be doing is related to how strong I am at different things, so I do some self testing every 8 weeks or so. Dips is one of the self tests My strength test for dips is 5 weighted dips w 45lbs. If I can't do this, then I'll add in weighted dips to one of the next two strength cycles. A caveat is that I also test Bench press, and if that's too weak (5x1.25BW), then I do Bench first and re-test the dips after.
My self tests are not all directly related to climbing. They're what I've found keeps my body overall strong enough to function how and when I want it to. I have a 15 year old special needs daughter, and I have to be able to lift/carry/manhandle her when needed, so I can't just stay in "climbing" shape. I need a bit more.
FYI - the self tests are:
Deadlift - 3x2xBW
Squat - 5x1.5BW
Bench Press - 5x1.25xBW
Dips - 5xBW+25%
Pullups - 5xBW+25%
Dragon Flags - 3
Run - 1 mile in 7min
Stairs - 6 flights up and down carrying 100+lbs.
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Holy shit.
:strongbench:
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I not sure this is relevant to anything but in another life time, I used to lots of dips in order improve my mantling. I could do sets of 50 or 10 with 50lbs added. At this time I went on the rings for my first and only time, once I'd managed to wobble my way in to straight arms. I could lower into an Iron cross with out too much trouble.
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Dips seem like some of the most climbing-specific classical gym exercises out there. Theoretically they should be more help in improving performance than many other 'supportive' exercises that get recommended (exercises for injury prevention is a different issue).
Doing dips or similar on rings is currently fashionable and introducing an unstable support of any kind makes most exercises feel a lot harder. I'm not convinced introducing instability (gym ball, rings etc.) is really the best way to progress (make harder) climbing exercises as most climbing takes place in a stable, externally predictable, environment. I'm aware I'm arguing from a theoretical perspective here.
Some folk seem to enjoy this kind of thing and that might be important. It might simply be a fad.
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I not sure this is relevant to anything but in another life time, I used to lots of dips in order improve my mantling. I could do sets of 50 or 10 with 50lbs added. At this time I went on the rings for my first and only time, once I'd managed to wobble my way in to straight arms. I could lower into an Iron cross with out too much trouble.
I'd have thought that a tricep pushdown exercise is closer to the motion of most mantling than dips? You could do a close grip lat pulldown into a tricep press for an approximation of a top out.
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Dips seem like some of the most climbing-specific classical gym exercises out there. Theoretically they should be more help in improving performance than many other 'supportive' exercises that get recommended (exercises for injury prevention is a different issue).
Doing dips or similar on rings is currently fashionable and introducing an unstable support of any kind makes most exercises feel a lot harder. I'm not convinced introducing instability (gym ball, rings etc.) is really the best way to progress (make harder) climbing exercises as most climbing takes place in a stable, externally predictable, environment. I'm aware I'm arguing from a theoretical perspective here.
Some folk seem to enjoy this kind of thing and that might be important. It might simply be a fad.
The instability helps with Proprioception development and that certainly has value in a climbing context....
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The instability helps with Proprioception development and that certainly has value in a climbing context....
I understand improving proprioception (joint and body position sense) is enormously beneficial but I question that introducing 'external' instability is the best way to do this for rock climbers. Increasing external instability is clearly appropriate for people running around a muddy rugby pitch: the playing surface is unpredictable and so are the opposition! Some climbing coaches and therapists are not thinking very deeply about what happens in climbing and just co-opting what other sportspeople do.
Climbers might achieve more proprioceptive improvement by increasing 'internal' instability: by moving more, in different ways, the more weird and wonderful the better! Do hand-stands rather than use a balance ball. Perhaps there is something in all this Dawes parkour udini nonsense?
Another potentially interesting approach is introducing mental distraction (e.g. fear) in a graduated fashion. It's clear that anxiety influences proprioception (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17055728), not that climber should need academic evidence for this. This doesn't seem to be done, yet, in a controlled fashion in climbing other than in falls training.
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Dips seem like some of the most climbing-specific classical gym exercises out there. Theoretically they should be more help in improving performance than many other 'supportive' exercises that get recommended (exercises for injury prevention is a different issue).
Doing dips or similar on rings is currently fashionable and introducing an unstable support of any kind makes most exercises feel a lot harder. I'm not convinced introducing instability (gym ball, rings etc.) is really the best way to progress (make harder) climbing exercises as most climbing takes place in a stable, externally predictable, environment. I'm aware I'm arguing from a theoretical perspective here.
Some folk seem to enjoy this kind of thing and that might be important. It might simply be a fad.
The instability helps with Proprioception development and that certainly has value in a climbing context....
Edit
Sorry, that was needlessly brief.
The probability of a slip, makes climbing inherently unstable.
Granted, the rock doesn't (hopefully) move, but you slip, miss step, ping off, lunge and miss a hold, etc etc etc.
Doing pull ups, or dips, or any gym based exercise on ridged equipment, doesn't really compare and tends to exercise specific muscles (usually the superficial "bulging" muscles). Introducing instability, helps to work the deeper "stabilising" muscles etc that are less engaged in ridged exercises (that essential occur in a single plane).
Yes, Rodma, I know I am oversimplifying. I'm trying to distill it to a straightforward "unstable exercises are important for climbing, just as they are for any other sport".
Google "Proprioception" and then spend some time looking at anatomical drawings of the shoulders and arms (within the context of this thread) and note the arrangement of those smaller muscles under the ones that poke through your skin, see how they stabilise the joints. Then imagine how they are engaged during, say, a dip on bars and then one on rings.
I'm an Engineer, so I tend to view it as a mechanical linkage, you know, "pull lever A up and gear X rotates clockwise", type reasoning.
Then Google some images of things like Rotator cuff injuries and with a little imagination, you should be able to see how they happen and why training/exercising stability might be important.
Personally (and I mean as an opinion, not a statement of fact), I think talk of these types of exercise as being "not climbing specific" are erroneous, in as much as injury prevention should be the core around which training should be grown.
Being able to do a one arm, pinky mono, on the BM 45*, wearing a 50kg weight vest; will not improve your climbing one Jot if you tear your rotator cuff and spend a year injured.
Such training does not seriously or deleteriously, increase muscle mass or body weight (we're not building Quads the size of buses, or Triceps like Arnie Sweatinickers).
It may, however, drastically reduce your chances of sitting out the season, screaming "ow, ow, fucking ow,!" Every time you reach for your coffee.
Take a look at the Meta study I linked to in the stretching thread (Slackers put it in the wiki too), regarding Strength training and Proprioception exercises for injury prevention.
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That wasn't aimed at you Duncan, you posted while I was typing...
Just general.
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I'm well aware of the anatomy of the shoulders Matt
There is a tendency to just tense up everything to resist the wobble effect, unless you are really diligent about which muscle groups you are engaging and it is exceptionally easy to cheat stability by tensing the same old large superficial muscles, like the pecs and upper traps.
I genuinely have nothing else to add to this topic, other than reiterating what I've already written, so her i go one last time. I'm not saying that dips are good or bad, but it is how you perform these exercises that matters, if and it's a big if, you are expecting them to work specific muscle groups.
If you just want to beast yourself then you can forgo all form, wobble the fuck around, get amazing doms and feel nice and broken, which is easy to do at home, with rings or similar.
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It is so hard to write anything on here without appearing to be challenging or calling someone out...
I really only aimed the apology for over simplification at you Rodma, not the rest.
One post.
Two apologies.
Foot.
In.
Mouth.
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I not sure this is relevant to anything but in another life time, I used to lots of dips in order improve my mantling. I could do sets of 50 or 10 with 50lbs added. At this time I went on the rings for my first and only time, once I'd managed to wobble my way in to straight arms. I could lower into an Iron cross with out too much trouble.
I'd have thought that a tricep pushdown exercise is closer to the motion of most mantling than dips? You could do a close grip lat pulldown into a tricep press for an approximation of a top out.
Once you get to body weight it hard to be stable and if you use a lat machine which has the thing to wedge you in place. You are sat down.
For specific mantling training I used to tie a piece of 2 x 4 to the dipping bars. Hang beneath it and press up in to a mantle. Mind despite all this I was still shit due to my lack of hip flexablity but on occasion I could straight arm with one arm and lift my foot up with the other
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It is so hard to write anything on here without appearing to be challenging or calling someone out...
I really only aimed the apology for over simplification at you Rodma, not the rest.
One post.
Two apologies.
Foot.
In.
Mouth.
no need to apologise at all, on reread the way i have written the first sentence in my post sounds a pretty harsh response and it wasn't intended to be. now if only there was some easy way of graphically illustrating my emotion, then i might come across a little bit less dickish, but not too much.
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I not sure this is relevant to anything but in another life time, I used to lots of dips in order improve my mantling. I could do sets of 50 or 10 with 50lbs added. At this time I went on the rings for my first and only time, once I'd managed to wobble my way in to straight arms. I could lower into an Iron cross with out too much trouble.
I struggle to see a relation between dips and iron crosses.
Of course pecs and triceps are involved in an iron cross, but I think that the main effort is sustained by lats and shoulders, that are minimally, if at all, involved in dips.
What do you think Webbo?
Were you doing something else that could have helped with iron crosses? Like heavy lifting or bouldering, or straight arms efforts, etc?
Genuinely interested.
Must mount rings.
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Were you doing something else that could have helped with iron crosses? Like heavy lifting or bouldering, or straight arms efforts, etc?
i have seen people that are so tight, that they could lower into an iron cross because they couldn't physicall lower any further without rotating their upper arms, or tearing something, not that I'm saying that's what webbo did, he's probably a beast
I'd be ridiculously impressed by anyone that could extend their arms out to iron cross, or pull up into the position from below.
have seen people "holding" reverse levers on rings when really they are at the end of their range of motion.
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There is a tendency to just tense up everything to resist the wobble effect, unless you are really diligent about which muscle groups you are engaging and it is exceptionally easy to cheat stability by tensing the same old large superficial muscles, like the pecs and upper traps.
Actually, that's an interesting statement.
Leaving aside Iron crosses and levers (as I see your point about limits to range).
How would you specifically target a group?
Do you mean recruitment in the warm up phase?
Conscious relaxation of non-target groups?
Surely, the targeted muscles will necessarily be engaged?
And regarding the tightness etc. is that not simply a case of someone attempting an exercise for which they are inadequately conditioned?
For Example, no-one should be jumping straight onto the rings to do Dips, if they cannot manage one between two chairs and have not progressed through fixed parallel bars.
There should always be progression.
I hope I haven't suggested Dips as a Panacea, I see them as an important part of a wider programme (in the context of shoulders).
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It's tricky isn't it.
You stay out with your feet on the ground to do assisted dips, but want to progress to footless because the exercise is feeling easier.
Hard top know whether you have learned to cheat, or to use the correct muscles which have gotten stronger?
It's the same with weights and even with therabands though. You really need to train with someone so you can check each others form I think.
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I not sure this is relevant to anything but in another life time, I used to lots of dips in order improve my mantling. I could do sets of 50 or 10 with 50lbs added. At this time I went on the rings for my first and only time, once I'd managed to wobble my way in to straight arms. I could lower into an Iron cross with out too much trouble.
I struggle to see a relation between dips and iron crosses.
Of course pecs and triceps are involved in an iron cross, but I think that the main effort is sustained by lats and shoulders, that are minimally, if at all, involved in dips.
What do you think Webbo?
Were you doing something else that could have helped with iron crosses? Like heavy lifting or bouldering, or straight arms efforts, etc?
Genuinely interested.
Must mount rings.
I did pull myself off the floor between the luggage racks whilst being bored working as a bus condutor. Given this was in 1979 and my training was even more random than it is now and generally followed what was fashionable that week. I didn't have any structure to what I was doing other I'm not climbing or going to wall so it would be pullups, dips or weights.
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;D