UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: shark on September 15, 2011, 12:37:46 pm
-
The weakness of my maximal figer strength was rammed home (again) at a coaching benchmarking session I had with Tommy 5 weeks ago. I have been deadhanging regularly since then and thought I was making progress. Having rigged up a counterweight system with free weights, a pulley and an etrier I have just tested what I can hold for 4 secondsish on the bottom rung of a rock ring and the results are very disappointing especially considering I feel stronger than I've ever felt.
Current weight 72.6kg. Right arm +11.25kg Left arm +17.5kg. I'm so ashamed.
Tommy's test was on a similar edge and I recorded 10kg so taking into account that there will be a difference in the rigs it would seem that I've stood still, at best. Even if I've improved in absolute terms the scores are appalling.
Anyway my questions are:
Has anyone tested themselves in this way and what are reasonable targets to aim for over what timescales?
Will I ever deadhang a single joint edge ?
Is this level of Right/Left discrepancy common?
Any tips for getting stronger at this ? (apart from losing weight :P )
Am I obsessing about the wrong thing ?
Should I give up climbing and take up ledge shuffling in Wales or something. (http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=64133&v=1#x853508)?
-
I'd think the difference between rock rings and a fixed edge might be a lot more than you're expecting.
-
I'd think the difference between rock rings and a fixed edge might be a lot more than you're expecting.
ie buy a beastmaker :strongbench:
also to answer will you ever be able to hang a single joint edge yes... so long as you believe you will be able to
-
I'd think the difference between rock rings and a fixed edge might be a lot more than you're expecting.
They seem stable when I do the hang. Maybe I should break into Tommy's shed seeing he is in the US and retest myself.
-
After reading a summary of Dave Macleod's Master's thesis on the web (I think it was his thesis; might have been something else by him), which dealt with the relationship between the very thing you are testing and max sport grade (he found that there was a good correlation) I was surprised at how weak all his subjects appeared to be compared with the grade they were climbing. So much so that I thought I must have misunderstood it. I emailed him querying his experimental setup and the like. After a bit of back and forth he asked me to test myself and report back. His delightful putdown was that I was way too strong for the grade I was climbing.
So, there you are Shark, you're way too weak for the grade you're climbing.
-
They seem stable when I do the hang.
Because your stabilisers are working hard. One might say harder than on a fixed edge :tumble:
If you're going to try to benchmark then do it off something that is constant or about as constant as you can possibly get. A campus rung for instance, or a BM edge.
So, there you are Shark, you're way too weak for the grade you're climbing.
I think he rather likes the idea of that.
-
They seem stable when I do the hang.
Because your stabilisers are working hard. One might say harder than on a fixed edge :tumble:
If you're going to try to benchmark then do it off something that is constant or about as constant as you can possibly get. A campus rung for instance, or a BM edge.
So, there you are Shark, you're way too weak for the grade you're climbing.
I think he rather likes the idea of that.
What ? Being accused of lying ? :ang:
Will re-try on a fixed edge and report back.
-
I 'hop' into the hang. In other words, both hands on a different edge, slight dynamic move with the hand you want to hang off onto the edge, then release the other hand. I perform better when I do this - some kind of recruitment issue? Either way, perhaps a better comparison with the kind of max strength move you'd use on rock?
-
I 'hop' into the hang. In other words, both hands on a different edge, slight dynamic move with the hand you want to hang off onto the edge, then release the other hand. I perform better when I do this - some kind of recruitment issue? Either way, perhaps a better comparison with the kind of max strength move you'd use on rock?
This is what I do too although the usual (sensible?) deadhanging advice is to gradually load the fingers. I'm struggling to download that Dave Mac stuff. Do you recall the benchmarks?
-
Sorry, not in detail, no. I do have a vague memory of most of them not being able to hold their own weight though, and the top end of the group were 8a / 8a+ climbers. His set up IIRC was a horizontal bench with a hold on a piece of wood that could slide on a groove in the bench. It was attached to weights via a pulley on the edge of the bench. So somewhat different from yours. Perhaps his was better at isolating the fingers. But given that you can do a one arm lock comfortably enough your setup should be isolating your fingers in any case.
-
Current weight 72.6kg. Right arm +11.25kg Left arm +17.5kg. I'm so ashamed.
Sorry for being daft, but is this the weight taken off your body weight? Or total weight?
-
Current weight 72.6kg. Right arm +11.25kg Left arm +17.5kg. I'm so ashamed.
Sorry for being daft, but is this the weight taken off your body weight? Or total weight?
Taken off. So in theory (ie if stabilisers aren't affecting the result) my deadhanging strength gripping an edge with right hand only is:
72.6kg - 11.25 kg = 61.35kg
I guess you could do it more directly with a rock ring attached to a weight pull-down machine in the gym
-
don't neglect the pulley assistance. I think Nige tested the school assistance pulley and found it was giving around 7kg by itself!
-
How does your 2-arm maximum compare to your 1-arm maximum?
The reason I ask is (if I'm not mistaken Paul?) that it might not be your fingers that are the weak point in your 1-arm deadhanging! You need quite a strong shoulder girdle to be able to hang off a small edge one-handed.
Try loading up with weights and see how much you can hang 2-armed, if it's quite a lot mroe than twice your 1-arm then you might have relatively weak shoulders.
This is just a theory of mine, so others with more training knowledge may want to add to, or shred to pieces that thought!
-
Good point but its pretty slick (petzl traxion) on a thin piece of static cord. Might take it down the foundry - IIRC there are rings in the beam by the Beastmaker. If not I can screw one in.
-
(if I'm not mistaken Paul?)
Sorry, I wouldn't know.
Am I obsessing about the wrong thing ?
I think you are, yes.
From what I've seen you've been climbing well this year, I can't really see why benchmarking matters; do you really give a shit if you can't hang an edge with one arm if/when you've done the Oak? I doubt it.
Or do you think hanging an edge one armed is a sure sign that the oak is within reach? Again, I doubt it.
Something else?
(it was a petzl fixe we were using)
-
Try loading up with weights and see how much you can hang 2-armed, if it's quite a lot mroe than twice your 1-arm then you might have relatively weak shoulders.
This is just a theory of mine, so others with more training knowledge may want to add to, or shred to pieces that thought!
I'll give the weighted hang a go.
-
as I've said before, I broke my left collarbone as a boy, and it never healed properly. it still has a big ridge where the fracture was and it's shaped in a completely different way than the right one. it's also a bit higher that the right one.
I think this is why my left deltoid has a different shape in its posterior part than the right one, a kind of hole or anyway less muscle.
my shoulders are strong in the gym, but one arm dead hangs seem to highlight my left shoulder weakness, and therefore I can't hang or pull as I'd like.
also aside from this, I'd say that the difference is normal.
I'd also say that you are stressing about the wrong thing!!!
but I can absolutely sympathize with you.
in the very end, what is climbing if not a preparation for feats of strength on small wooden rungs?
:-\
I agree about testing on fixed stuff.
when in Florence, I hade the BM on the door frame. one arm dead hangs were very hard because the body could not move freely to get into balance. I moved to Siena, put the BM under the wall with plenty of room to move and... ta daaa.
they are still hard. but less hard.
-
Am I obsessing about the wrong thing ?
I think you are, yes.
From what I've seen you've been climbing well this year, I can't really see why benchmarking matters; do you really give a shit if you can't hang an edge with one arm if/when you've done the Oak? I doubt it.
Or do you think hanging an edge one armed is a sure sign that the oak is within reach? Again, I doubt it.
Something else?
No its not about the Oak - training for that is going really well- it's something far more important - life after the Oak and stupid feats of strength. I'm joking. Kind of. If it maximal finger strength that is genuinely the weak link then I should make training for it an absolute priority to the virtual exclusion of everything else that might impede gains in this one area. I doubt it is that important but I do thing it is more of a priority than I have been making it along with aerobic capacity which were the lessons I took on board from Tommy in our last session.
-
Come on, confess: your main goal is the one arm pull up on a first joint edge. You spent a couple of years getting solid on the one armer on a bar; now you're working the fingers with the target of hanging the edge by Christmas. You're hoping to piece the two together in 2012 or 2013.
-
Come on, confess: your main goal is the one arm pull up on a first joint edge. You spent a couple of years getting solid on the one armer on a bar; now you're working the fingers with the target of hanging the edge by Christmas. You're hoping to piece the two together in 2012 or 2013.
You might think that; I couldn't possibly comment
-
anyway respect the weight you have to take off. when i started one arm dead hangs i was using a 2 cm edge and i had to take off 17 and 20 kg right and left. each session i progressed a bit and eventually i one armed the hold. and i am lighter than you. so keep your head down and your faith up and get back to it if it's what you want!
-
anyway respect the weight you have to take off. when i started one arm dead hangs i was using a 2 cm edge and i had to take off 17 and 20 kg right and left. each session i progressed a bit and eventually i one armed the hold. and i am lighter than you. so keep your head down and your faith up and get back to it if it's what you want!
I do, I do.
How long did this progression take you?
-
If you feel strong on the Oak, then surely it will be totally irrelevant? I can barely hold anything one armed and I think this has to do with shoulder stuff, and presumably that will be way worse on a dangly thing like a rock ring.
For what its worth - and I know you don't like it, but the three biggest things you need to address are:
1. leaving your clipstick at home (or at least on the floor!)
2. not saying take all the time
3. going bouldering on limestone
Feel free to rip me apart :tease:
-
Plus fatty Barrows cant hold anything one-armed and he done 8c innit.
-
Hey shark, just watching your vid on fb. Just a suggestion of something that you could do, if your after 1 arm hanging strength from flat edge. i used to do it on a campus board with foot on the wall behind it. get a line of rungs up that board of yours (assume its your board in the video) normal campusy width, what 18/20mm. Then with feet on but square on to board, one arm snatch all the way up the rungs, but stick a little finger of your otherhand on the bottom, not really to take weight but to give you more control of your 'torso' so its not shifting all over the place. What i found was it tended to work that open arm, open shoulder position really well, something that is wellard to train just hanging of a board. You'll also get some gains in your fingers as well. Bear in mind its pretty intense but not really the level of old skool double handed campusing, but watch for raging your elbows. :weakbench:
-
Btw i reckon resistance wise you should be failing before you hit ten movements.
-
i used to do it on a campus board with foot on the wall behind it. get a line of rungs up that board of yours (assume its your board in the video) normal campusy width, what 18/20mm. Then with feet on but square on to board, one arm snatch all the way up the rungs, but stick a little finger of your otherhand on the bottom, not really to take weight but to give you more control of your 'torso' so its not shifting all over the place. What i found was it tended to work that open arm, open shoulder position really well, something that is wellard to train just hanging of a board.
:goodidea:
Never heard of this and I can do this on the campus boards at the Edge and Foundry as they have footholds at the back
-
i can't remember exactly but i think my progression happened over a few months.
-
The other thing to try might simply be to hang a larger edge with no assistance. Choose one you can manage for a few seconds. When you can manage say eight seconds progress to a smaller edge and try to build up to eight seconds again. IIRC that's what Moon recommended. A fingerboard either at home or at the wall with plenty of different sized holds would do the trick. Or if there are different sized campus rungs at the wall choose the right one and go from there.
Assuming your rock rings' hold sizes are the same as the latest models on the web, you're trying to hang a 3/4 inch edge at the minute (and can you get all four fingers in the hold - they call it a three finger pocket?, which is quite small really. Maybe try one inch?
-
Might be :off: a bit but any other tips for shoulder girdle training.. as I find 1 arming on any hold hard..but have no probs with 2 arming and extra weight, also find shouldery moves suit me but as soon as 1 arm needs to go off, and I am streched out max, to go to another hold (ie. 1 arm needs to hang a long time and take the load) I can't do the move) :no:
Will have to give the 1 arm campus thing a go...
-
Might be :off: a bit but any other tips for shoulder girdle training.. as I find 1 arming on any hold hard..but have no probs with 2 arming and extra weight, also find shouldery moves suit me but as soon as 1 arm needs to go off, and I am streched out max, to go to another hold (ie. 1 arm needs to hang a long time and take the load) I can't do the move) :no:
Will have to give the 1 arm campus thing a go...
Isn't perceived wisdom to build up to one-arming gradually using a pully or a tyre inner tube for one hand?
-
Indeed.. :oops: but still out for some extra shoulder girdle stuff..
-
Indeed.. :oops: but still out for some extra shoulder girdle stuff..
sounds like you need to get on a bar and some one arm negatives. get tucked in and drop slowly.
-
Btw i reckon resistance wise you should be failing before you hit ten movements.
Stupid question but do you move your feet at all during these ten moves? I assume too that some hand moves are down?
Cheers
-
ha yeah, inspector gadget arm, yep 5 up 4 down, nothing else needs to move, feet still, opposite hand still.
-
Thank you Probes.
-
Has anyone tested themselves in this way and what are reasonable targets to aim for over what timescales?
I use a set of fishermen's scales hanging next to my fingerboard to measure the amount of assistance I need. I find this eliminates the inaccuracies you get with a pulley system because of the friction of the pulley, and because you're using your free arm to pull down on the scales it requires less stabilization from the shoulder you're hanging on than the other method where you stand on a set of scales.
In my case shoulders are the limiting factor with one arm deadhangs, any weak link in the kinetic chain will inhibit the entire chain - the fingers can't hang what the shoulder can't stabilize. A quick unscientific test last night using a weight belt, and using my other hand to stabilise the hang, but taking off less weight than added by the weight belt, showed that a hold that I can only just hang briefly one armed I can actually hang reasonably comfortably with extra weight if I use my other hand for stabilization. Of course this won't be the same for everyone, but it's worth ruling out shoulder weakness when assessing one arm strength.
As for time scales, as you well know - everyone is different.
Is this level of Right/Left discrepancy common?
Probably, I've got a significant LR difference.
I'd think the difference between rock rings and a fixed edge might be a lot more than you're expecting.
I've no evidence for this, but a rockring might actually need less stabilization because when you start to rotate on a fixed edge you have to stabilize your body against the spin, with a rockring the hold should rotate with you, so no stabilization needed, maybe...
From what I've seen you've been climbing well this year, I can't really see why benchmarking matters; do you really give a shit if you can't hang an edge with one arm if/when you've done the Oak? I doubt it.
I think benchmarking is a big deal - if you're going to put a lot of effort into an exercise you need to test 1RM periodically to make sure that it's working, if it's not you either need to change your rep/weights or ditch it. On another level I like the idea of quantifying the average strength levels needed to climb a specific grade; so for instance if you want to climb 8a you'll (on average) need to be able to deadhang an edge xcm, that isn't to say that like the recent Beastmaker feats thread that deadhanging x = 8a, just that if you have that finger strength then it's some other element of strength and/or technique that you need to focus on.
This sort of benchmarking is common in other sports but the only person I know who's attempted it for climbing is Heather Sagar in her book 'Climbing Your Best', and the test and test methods she chose were deeply flawed.
-
.....any weak link in the kinetic chain will inhibit the entire chain - the fingers can't hang what the shoulder can't stabilize.
spot on serpico thats well worth pointing out, its easy to get lost in building finger strength when you aint got the ship to control it. Something i always used to do a lot in campus board days was hang one arm from a bar and just rotate back and forth, quite quick but controlled whilst making chimp noises, thought it was stretching my shoulders but later realised it helped a lot with those strange stability positions in the shoulder?
-
I've no evidence for this, but a rockring might actually need less stabilization because when you start to rotate on a fixed edge you have to stabilize your body against the spin, with a rockring the hold should rotate with you, so no stabilization needed, maybe...
I'm not sold on this, everything I've ever done on a set of rings (one or two armed) has been far harder than doing so on a static bar.
-
I'm not sold on this, everything I've ever done on a set of rings (one or two armed) has been far harder than doing so on a static bar.
It might not be the case, I don't have a set of rockrings any more to test, but when comparing ring exercises there's a big difference between the rings supporting the load (like ring pushups) which are very unstable, and exercises where the load is suspended from the rings (deadhangs and pullups) where the instability is less.
-
I don't have a set of rockrings any more to test, but when comparing ring exercises there's a big difference between the rings supporting the load (like ring pushups) which are very unstable, and exercises where the load is suspended from the rings (deadhangs and pullups) where the instability is less.
Certainly, however my experience of rockrings is that you really have to fight to avoid punching yourself in the face by accident.
-
The results from the foundry beastmaker are now in.
Holding the bottom rail: Right arm + 7.25kg (failed at 5kg) Left arm 10.5kg (failed at 8.75kg)
This compares to the bottom rung of the rock ring as stated in the OP: Right arm +11.25kg Left arm +17.5kg.
Whether the improvement is down to the instability of the rock ring or that the edge on the Beastmaker is easier to hold or a combination of the two or the planets being misaligned I don't know.
Main thing for me is that the dream seems much more attainable. :2thumbsup:
-
After reading a summary of Dave Macleod's Master's thesis on the web...
Wouldn't mind reading this, do you have a link?
-
The results from the foundry beastmaker are now in.
Holding the bottom rail: Right arm + 7.25kg (failed at 5kg) Left arm 10.5kg (failed at 8.75kg)
This compares to the bottom rung of the rock ring as stated in the OP: Right arm +11.25kg Left arm +17.5kg.
Whether the improvement is down to the instability of the rock ring or that the edge on the Beastmaker is easier to hold or a combination of the two or the planets being misaligned I don't know.
Main thing for me is that the dream seems much more attainable. :2thumbsup:
why don't you test some other chumps while you're down the foundry. be interesting to get a few peeps measured and compare their maximal finger strength to their bouldering or route grade.
-
Any one have data for the Moon Board? This is all very interesting. Benchmarks are great!
-
Mark: I can hold things one handed. Jugs.
-
Is this level of Right/Left discrepancy common?
I was thinking about this thread yesterday whilst doing more Being A Dad than Climbing Lots, namely building the foundation for the new rabbit hutch. In the course of which I discovered that, while I can pinch a 14kg paving slab with my right hand and carry it around the garden for several metres quite comfortably, I can barely hold one under control with my left.
Fortunately due to an estimation error I have a spare slab left over to train with ...
-
After reading a summary of Dave Macleod's Master's thesis on the web...
Wouldn't mind reading this, do you have a link?
I've had a quick search but couldn't find it. I'll look around some more tomorrow.
Or maybe email him directly?
-
Is it this?:
"Physiological determinants of climbing-specific finger endurance and sport rock climbing performance"
It's available as a payable download on a couple of sites.
-
That does sound very much like it, yes.
-
WELL SAID!!!!!
-
Is it this?:
"Physiological determinants of climbing-specific finger endurance and sport rock climbing performance"
It's available as a payable download on a couple of sites.
If anyone would like this paper but doesn't have access to it, send me a pm.
-
Although that may contravene the copyright!
Paywalls for academic journals suck (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/29/academic-publishers-murdoch-socialist). Anything funded by public money should be in the public domain and freely available. :off:
-
I have settled on a bi-weekly fingerboard training (3 weeks on/ 1 week off) the first session based on assisted one armers and the second on two-armed encores. Most of the inspiration came from Dan's Beastmaker article and an article by Crusher holds (https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B-pTnjdKuyM3NTJkNGY2ZmEtYjlmOC00MjhiLWE2YjYtZjBmODFhNWRhYTNl&sort=name&layout=list&num=50). The set-up is a pair of rock rings for hand/s and a counterweight on a pulley attached to an etrier for a foot. Early signs are promising.
Session 1 (Assisted 1 armers)
After warm-up
I arm session pyramiding reps using middle rung of rock ring adjusting weight to what I think I can cope with. On Monday's session this was:
RIGHT: 10kgx1rep, 12.5kgx2 reps, 15kgx3reps, 17.5kgx4reps, 20kgx5reps, 20kgx4, 17.5kgx3, 15kgx2, 12.5kgx1
LEFT: 12.5kgx1rep, 15kgx2 reps, 17.5kgx3 reps, 22.5kgx5 reps, 22.5kgx4 reps, 20kgx3reps, 17.5kgx2 reps, 15kgs x 1rep.
Some of the reps required assistance from the other hand to complete so will stick to something similar to these weights next week
Session 2 (Encores)
After warm-up
Bottom crimp of rock rings All 4 on one and back2 on the other. 4repsx8secs with 5 secs rest on alternating. 4 sets per arm with 1 min rest between sets as follows:
Grab 1: Full Lock i.e. pull-up hold 8secs and release 5secs rest then Grab2:
Grab 2: arms ¾ lock
Grab 3: arms half lock
Grab 4: arms ¼ lock
15mins rest
As above but two-handed Mid2 then Front2 1x6sec, 9sec then 12 secs with 4 secs rest. 4sets each combo with I min rest between sets. 10 mins between combos.
10 mins rest
8kg DB 50 finger rolls 2 sets
The above was done very comfortably this morning with a 12.5kg counterweight so will reduce to 11.25kg next time
-
I always though that for pyramids, you were supposed to increase the difficulty with each step and thus have a single rep of the hardest level at the top of the pyramid and then come back down again.
Yours seems to be the other way up.
But I might be wrong :shrug:
-
I always though that for pyramids, you were supposed to increase the difficulty with each step and thus have a single rep of the hardest level at the top of the pyramid and then come back down again.
Yours seems to be the other way up.
But I might be wrong :shrug:
You might be right but its what Dan Varian / Carlisle Slapper recommended. The article is no longer on the web as far as I know but the relevant bit was this:
One armers:
I have found most success training these by doing pyramids with assistance
1 armers
reps assistance rest (mins)
1 0kg or little finger 2
2 2kg or little finger 2
3 4kg or index finger 2
4 8kg or index finger 2
5 10kg or middle finger2
4 8kg or index finger 2
3 4kg or index finger 2
2 2kg or little finger 2
1 0kg or little finger 8
I will do one full set on one arm (my weakest i.e. Right) then I will do the next set on my strongest arm i.e. left, I find this has helped to begin to sort out any imbalances I have had in the past. I often do this exercise off the 20 degree sloper or one of the central “face” holds. I often would combine 2 sets of these (one for each arm) with a core work out, but not really with maximal hangs or repeaters as I find it drains the arms past the quick recovery period. If you only wish to train 2-3 times a week or have to have time off due to work it could be a good idea though.
-
Is that routine involving anything that makes your fingers fail? Ie are they the weakest link? My guess would have been that you'd be able to hang the middle slot of a rock ring one armed without assistance - is the assistance helping you pull up rather than keep contact?
Maybe you want to train close to the limit rather than at it of course, in which case, it's perfect - plus you get to regain your one armer party trick if you've lost it.
-
I always though that for pyramids, you were supposed to increase the difficulty with each step and thus have a single rep of the hardest level at the top of the pyramid and then come back down again.
Yours seems to be the other way up.
But I might be wrong :shrug:
Pyramid sets can be done either way, just make sure you're warmed up if starting with the heaviest set first.
-
Is that routine involving anything that makes your fingers fail? Ie are they the weakest link? My guess would have been that you'd be able to hang the middle slot of a rock ring one armed without assistance - is the assistance helping you pull up rather than keep contact?
Maybe you want to train close to the limit rather than at it of course, in which case, it's perfect - plus you get to regain your one armer party trick if you've lost it.
No I can't quite hold the middle slot one handed and unaided yet even with the thumb on the side for longer than maybe 1 second certainly no more than 2 though shoulder instability is possibly a contributory factor. The assistance definitely helps with both the contact and the pull-up but I am fairly sure that is the fingers that are failing when I use the other hand for assistance but it is a good point and I will double-check next session. Hopefully I will be able to graduate to the small rung soon.