UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => bouldering => Topic started by: Ru on March 17, 2010, 06:54:46 pm
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I'm revising some grades for the next Peak guide.
First up: Press Low Left. I've not done this problem so wanted some feedback, 8a or 8a+?
The repeats on 8a.nu indicate that it may be either soft at 8a+ or 8a. I'm not on a massive downgrade mission though and if it's soft 8a+ then it should stay at 8a+. I note that Paul (Smit) has repeated Simpson's link adding in the reverse Kudos traverse and kept Rich's original 8a+ grade for the lot. Seems a bit odd having both in at the same grade, although they could be at opposite ends.
The knock on effect of low left being 8a would be low right being 7c+ and keeling being 7c, or thereabouts.
Tsunami seems to have settled at 7c+, or 8a with the match (which to my mind turns a good independent line into an eliminate, but it will go in anyway). Bigger Splash low right 7c.
Dancing Fish, 8a unless anyone that's done it objects. Bigger Belly 8b? Only a grade harder than Low Left? Johnny G 7c.
Kudos Easy way/ hard way 7b, sitter 7b+.
Thoughts?
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I would agree there's no real difference between kudos easy/hard these days.
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I think (relative to other things I have done) that Press Low Left is harder than 8a. But I would also accept that perhaps I am doing it a hard way - i.e. I match the sloper, then move right wards into the kneeling start. Concievably, you could bounce off the sloper into the pocket or crimp, swing your heel across, move your left into the sloper and it would then be easier, but I think you are still talking 8a/+. Of course, I havent actually done this, so take with a pinch of salt. I would vote soft 8a+, but still 8a+. The reason you dont get any more for your money if you link it into kudos reverse is because of the massive jug at the top of the press - for someone able to recover and route fit, this presents a veritable bivi ledge (in fact I am suprised not to have found anyone doing a bat hang here) before rumbling leftwards across sharp but positive finger jugs. I agree it seems odd, and is perhaps harsh, but think its hard 8a+ rather than 8b. There is room within the grade I think.
Kneeling is harder than 7c. Or if its not its the hardest 7c in the world. I think kneeling is 7c+, and that low right is either 7c+/8a or soft 8a.
Tsunami I have always found to be one of the hardest. Again, this is because I insist on doing it the slightly elimanate matching on the sloper, no pocket no edge no heelhook method, and to be completely honest, i find this harder than low left press. So definately without a doubt full on 8a that way, and I havent done it the other way, so I cant comment on that.
Dancing fish I think I refer to as flying fish - is this Tsunami to the last move, then left hand go again to the dogs mouth sidepull? i'd agree with 8a, but didnt actually finish it. Bit of a wierd tallist one that.
Bigger belly - dirty living end. Dont know anything other than that it hurts my fingers.
Agreed on the Kudos grades.
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Oh, and can I just remind you that Dan Constance Variable has absolutely no idea how hard things are, couldnt grade flour and shouldnt be trusted. Count Ned into that too.
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I recon recovering on the press jug (or the kudos starting rail for that matter) just aint in the spirit of kudos wall bouldering. Boo hiss.
Are other obvious linkups like kudos traverse there&back, kudos sitter into traverse etc going in?
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Kneeling is harder than 7c. Or if its not its the hardest 7c in the world. I think kneeling is 7c+....
:agree:
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:agree: too. I think Kudos easy way is only 7a+ but realise I'm in the minority. P.s. is it only me that think Bigger Tail is more like 7a+ than 7a?
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Kneeling Press is 7c+ without question. For me Tsnami hard 7c+ without the eliminate shizzle. I also find Kudos easy way 7b and Kneeling Bigger Splash 7c.
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Press low left & Tsunami are polar opposites given they climb within a meter of each other. most find one easier than the other. I find Tsunami much easier as it's more fingery & body tension, whereas press is very burly. I'd say they're probably both 8a.
The link up is worthy of 8a+ as you need to reverse a 7b & then do another 7b.
Kneeling press is deffo 7c+ as this is the hard move. The low right is no harder.
Kneeling or Low right into bigger splash 7c.
Agree with Kudos as hard Kudos is only 7b if you use the intermediates. Sitter worth 7b+
What about original Kudos not using the jug. This is a great 7b+ maybe 7c.
Bigger Belly gotta be 8b and the stand finish a great 1 move 7c.
Can't comment on the flying fish as not (likely) to do it
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Kneeling press def 7c+. The press move fits me like a glove (or a flesh tuxedo, depending on your preference), but the finish move is tricky if you're tall. Way harder than (say) the pinch at you know where, which is solid 7c.
Tsunami surely means you match the sloper? I think soft 8a, but it's the only short 8a I've done so can't really comment. I use the heel to go up to the sidepull but change to a toe and deep flag for the move to the undercling. Again, a difficult one to finish.
Low left press I haven't done (yet). However, have been close. Personally I don't think I'm an 8a+ climber, and I know I can do this. So I can't really comment, but I think 8a would be more likely. It doesn't feel as hard as The Thing to me. Or much harder than Tsunami. I'd love it to be 8a+, but I doubt it is. I don't think it's as hard as the In Hell start (just the bit into Rockatrocity), and we can't have softer grades than Wales ;)
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Tsunami surely means you match the sloper?
As far as i know Tsunami was never first done as an eliminate, it just became one once an easier sequence (for taller people) became available. Logically I can't see why Tsunami should be converted into an eliminate when most other problems in the Peak just get downgraded when an easier method is found.
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I reckon...
Kneeling press 7c+
Low right press (slightly harder) 7c+
Low left press (although I haven done it) 8a
Tsunami 8a
Dancing Fish 8a
Bigger Belly 8b
Jonny G 7c (it rhymes)
Kudos easy 7b going on 8a
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Dunno about grades, but on Tsunami, I find matching the sloper the easy bit. Tall people go again with the right hand to the small pocket, but this seems harder. The crux is definitely getting the undercut with your left
I think it is the best line on the wall so it would be a shame for it to be an eliminate.
Doing the start of Tsunami then traversing right into bigger splash makes for a good link
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kudos easy is 8b
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No, west side story is 8b
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I've banged this drum before about the inconsistency that had the Low Right start adding a grade to The Press but not to BSD. Doesn't make any sense at all.
BSD kneel = Easy 7C LR = Hard 7C
Press kneel = Easy 7C+ LR = Hard 7C+
Fine. Otherwise both LR starts have to add a grade.
Extrapolate this and you have the grades for the other starts.
Low Left Press = A grade harder than LR so hard 8A
Tsunami (with pocket) = A grade harder than LR so hard 7C+
Tsunami (sloper match) = adds a harder move... 8A
It's universally accepted that there are two versions of Tsunami. Both are good problems, I can't see a problem with both being included?
How about Tsunami being the 8A eliminate version and the non eliminate problem being called Low Left BSD? Or is that too logical?
Kudos Hard Way = 7B
Kudos Sitter = 7B+
Kudos Original = Hard 7B+ (I'd love to take 7C for this but it's not).
Kudos "Easy" = 8C
Oh and Bigger Belly is 8B without a shadow of a doubt.
This all fits then as BB is definitely more than a grade harder than Low Left Press and we can all sleep soundly.
Man I can't wait to get some fucking strength back and get back on these problems.................
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Low left press I haven't done (yet)... I don't think it's as hard as the In Hell start (just the bit into Rockatrocity), and we can't have softer grades than Wales ;)
This is madness, In Hell start is quite steady into the start of RA in comparison to Tsunami/Lower left press start :o. Only been on them on a warm day in the sun, so I guess cooler conditions makes things change dramatically?
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It's probably worth considering Richie that you spend the majority of your climbing time in the cave, and Sausage spends a lot of time on the peak limestone in the summer.
Glad Kudos 'easy' is getting an upgrade!
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Is there any noise on the thing left of Kudos? I know its been done from standing, but how about a low start? And there seems to be a line just about possible between this and Miller's Tale too.
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It's supposed to be 7C+ but looks desperate. Who's actually done it? Sequence etc?
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Yeah it has been done from standing I had heard, although the start crimp has now gone. The sit down is pretty much defunct although opto Varian thinks it will still go!! Someone managed to pull a pocket off and then the main crimp which looked solid managed to collapse under the weight of a northener!
Rock quality is poor maybe its just better left before the whole wall falls down!!!
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what are people's foot sequences on tsunami for the matching sloper bit? i find the match hideous. (the crux is never getting into that undercut)
kudos easy way is not 7a+ you mentalist albarro. 7b. agree with others.
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what is the easy way, pressing it?
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Yes, but that's called the hard way.
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what are people's foot sequences on tsunami for the matching sloper bit? i find the match hideous. (the crux is never getting into that undercut)
kudos easy way is not 7a+ you mentalist albarro. 7b. agree with others.
I use Dobbin's wonderful world of the million foot movements! Others use the drop knee but you gotta have pretty funky knees for that one! Footless perhaps? If conditions are good this is surprisingly easier than it sounds. I also know that some people swing there heel straight up and flag loads with the left leg!
4 methods for you to choose from!
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I also know that some people swing there heel straight up and flag loads with the left leg!
Never thought of that.
4 methods for you to choose from!
There's also the totally basic and super tensiony "just stick your toe in the low pocket and pull hard" option.
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Yeah that normally ends up as cutting loose for me but again if conditions are good this is ok!
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True, normally ends up with my arse on the pad when I try it!
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hmmm, maybe i just need to try harder. might re-try dob eggs beta. have bee trying ed's sequence that uses a really high edge more or less directly below the sloper and flagging left (but the alsatian hips conspire and prise me from the rock)
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I concur that this is by far the hardest move on the problem and any talk of the move to the undercut being harder is crack pipe gibberish or a really bad foot sequence.
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The grades from the old guidebook are fine, absolutely no need to change them.
Everyone says tsunami is easy but i disagree, granted i did it the matching way but i think 7c+ is mean to say the least. Low left is maybe low in the grade for 8a+ but it is harder than any 8a i have ever done and the grade has to start somewhere.
As for the grade of that link that simpson did, i think it was probably a combination of Simpson being a bit competitive in his grading and him having the problems utterly utterly wired.
Rubicon is an accessible crag with reliable conditions and a fairly basic style of climbing so it makes sense that people who climb predominantly indoors (like me) should do these problems, and in some instances quickly (not like me). But i don't think that means the grades should be hammered down too far.
At a push tsunami and Low right are soft but i have done softer 8as in the uk and abroad.
N.B. if you haven't done a problem don't say it is soft, because if it was that soft you should have done it!
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anyone who thinks you have to climb something to have a very good idea how hard it is "is a fucking idiot", and you can quote me ;D
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N.B. if you haven't done a problem don't say it is soft, because if it was that soft you should have done it!
That makes no sense.
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So the statement- "i haven't done it but it is easy" makes sense.
I think if you haven't done something and you say it is easy, it is quite dishonest, because you don't know. All this "from my great experience i deam it not worthy of the grade", is the refrain of someone too lazy to do the route or problem.
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Makes more sense than saying that a problem being soft means somehow that everyone should be able to do it. :-\
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I waltzed along to the final move of a problem in Magic Wood given a lofty grade and then fell off tickling the jug. I tried this a few more times (less than 3) and it was seriously just a matter of time before I stuck it. I instantly pronounced it soft. Are you saying that I can't then have the opinion that said problem is soft because the difficulty I'm saying it doesn't have could be that last miniscule amount before holding the swing? or that I'm lazy to lose interest?
(edit because I can't get my words right)
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The move to the jug on Wonderboy is pretty tough Paul, better luck next time ;D
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Yes.
what i meant was, to say "this route is soft for the grade" means two things, you have done a sufficient number of problems of a similar grade and you have done it relatively easily relative to the other problems of that type and grade.
Therefore if you are saying it is soft, you should have done it.
I don't think you have the right to say it unless you have done the problem.
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Therefore if you are saying it is soft, you should have done it.
I don't think you have the right to say it unless you have done the problem.
I concur.
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Tim, I've never seen the earth from space, and I've never been on other planets of similar shape - am I qualified to say the earth is a sphere in your opinion?
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You could say so, but you'd be wrong; oblate spheroid homes!
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Please, geometry isn't an exact science.
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the earth is flat isn't it?
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What hogwash. Look at The Sausage's description of why he thinks Low Left Press is 8A. It makes perfect sense.
I think Tsunami is 8A but soft for the grade for the same reason. My opinion will be the same once I finally do it. What will have changed? And "soft" is not an insult, just an opinion on the relative difficulty of a problem within a grade range.
I haven't done Hubble but I know what grade it is etc.
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If you apply the reverse logic you can't say something is hard unless you haven't done it? :shrug:
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Dave you're normally on the money but that is a pretty left-field comparison.
Paul I can see your point but the fact remains you didn't do the problem, maybe you should have had one more go and crushed it then declared it soft :shrug:, or maybe after another 20,30,40, whatever goes you might be thinking hmmm that last move is a sting in the tail....
Of course you can have an opinion, I've got endless opinions on stuff I know very little/fuck all about so you having an opinion on the grade of a problem you've almost done is fine and dandy. But if someone is making bold statements about a problems grade it would be informative to know whether this was a ticked problem, work in progress or even based on a hazy memory from several years ago when said person had a play on the moves for five minutes and it didn't seem that bad. Just to get a sense of perspective.
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I haven't done Hubble but I know what grade it is etc.
hogwash indeed.
If you apply the reverse logic you can't say something is hard unless you haven't done it? :shrug:
no, because that doesn't make any sense.
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How is what I said hogwash exactly? :shrug:
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because it was a fatuous thing to say. You don't KNOW do you, you have a vague idea on what you have read.
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Well no actually. I have a pretty good idea based on how hard I thought it was in comparison to the two 8cs I'd been on at the time. Which was my point. I haven't done it but I know how hard it is.
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in which case you do, i apologise. There is a difference between saying something is hard and saying something is soft for the grade, namely, having done the route or problem.
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Of course you can have an opinion, I've got endless opinions on stuff I know very little/fuck all about so you having an opinion on the grade of a problem you've almost done is fine and dandy. But if someone is making bold statements about a problems grade it would be informative to know whether this was a ticked problem, work in progress or even based on a hazy memory from several years ago when said person had a play on the moves for five minutes and it didn't seem that bad. Just to get a sense of perspective.
Completely, and then you can guage the worth of such information. However at the end of the day all you're going to be left with is an opinion.
no, because that doesn't make any sense.
That was kinda my point :-[
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Is the word on the grapevine right, Tim? Are you Sheff-bound soon?
Discussions under the motherboard will draw crowds for sure..
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After watching Sharik do press sit left 2nd or 3rd go or something by flicking LH to sloper from the start slot and jumping through to the crimp, i concluded 2 things i already suspected. He's a monster (easy conclusion) and it isn't 8a+. He found tsunami (match way) harder and superman took him a fair bit longer ( he used the proper holds on this too)
In my opinion low left is 8a, it is easier than hooligan start (all the way to the flake), superman, and some 8A MGCO3 problems of Dolphs.
Bigger belly is pretty specialist and quintessentially british, esoterically weird but hard too (and a bit shitty) maybe it is 8b in retrospect, either way it should see off heavy types and chubby fingered types from the get go. It is very workable however even with just 1 pad and doesn't tend to seep which (IMHO) counts towards it being soft for the grade, oh to have my ring fingers back in their mingdom :(
We (me Ned Dave) nick named stand up was nicknamed johnny G 7c, and it is a lovely move, i don't know if you want to stick that in too.
can i have my toffee now please?
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How is what I said hogwash exactly? :shrug:
..as a proportion of your 5,700+ posts..?
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84.3% actually but that one was one of the 15.7% that wasn't.
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yeah, well maybe,
Is the word on the grapevine right, Tim? Are you Sheff-bound soon?
Discussions under the motherboard will draw crowds for sure..
well maybe, depends on the exam passing situatioon
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I waltzed along to the final move of a problem in Magic Wood given a lofty grade and then fell off tickling the jug. I tried this a few more times (less than 3) and it was seriously just a matter of time before I stuck it. I instantly pronounced it soft.
out of interest, what problem was this?
I've lost count of the amount of problems I've said this about and then its turned out that holding the final jug or whatever the move was is the crux
I have never done a single problem on this piece of rock and think they are all about 10d
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Then you're gonna need to get your own coat.
(http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/30/l_96382d66016802c4d70a6223661d5e56.jpg)
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I will have to pick one up to keep me happy whilst getting burnt off by all the strong boys
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what are people's foot sequences on tsunami for the matching sloper bit? i find the match hideous. (the crux is never getting into that undercut)
kudos easy way is not 7a+ you mentalist albarro. 7b. agree with others.
I put left foot in low pocket, right toe on small polished flakey thing out right, then flag with left foot to match the sloper.
If the move to the undercut is so easy, I must be doing it wrong. Ive only done the move about 3 times but I rarely fall on the sloper match now (well, last year when I last tried it)
My beta for the undercut move was: change heel-toe to a toe, rock weight onto it and flag left foot under and onto decent foothold down and right (where there are a few options - I think the one I used has broken now making it a bit harder?) Then 'flick' left hand into undercut
Anyone got any better methods??? I never was much good at flick type moves
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If you flag your LF to the correct hold it creates a solid position to be able to reach for the undercut in control. Really important to get the RH sidepull just right too. I found if I didn't get it spot on then I couldn't do the move.
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Thanks all. Low left press will probably go in at 8a.
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Whilst I can see where Jasper etc. are coming from, I'm slightly more inclined toward the Tim's side here... Let's not forget that stuff can be surprisingly hard/easy to finish off on the link compared to how it feels as moves or even in sections.
Maybe you could apply MATHS (science is very last year). The guidebook grade is 0, anyone who's done it and thinks it should go up a grade give it +10 points (or 2 grades +20 etc), anyone who's done it and thinks it should go down can give it -10 points. Those who haven't done it can only give +/-2 points. Tally them up and you have your grade, then when anyone complains you can simply point them at the numbers. Proof.
F*ck I'm cool.
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If you flag your LF to the correct hold it creates a solid position to be able to reach for the undercut in control. Really important to get the RH sidepull just right too. I found if I didn't get it spot on then I couldn't do the move.
like jasper says flag left enough, and remember to pull like fuck with right hand and you can lock to it.
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If you flag your LF to the correct hold it creates a solid position to be able to reach for the undercut in control. Really important to get the RH sidepull just right too. I found if I didn't get it spot on then I couldn't do the move.
Cheers Jasper, that makes sense. I think it will depend on leg length to some extent though. i.e. those with short legs (me) might find themselves more 'horizontal' and therefore less secure when flagging on the foothold. Or maybe it is just a case of experimenting more with different footholds
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When I did BSD low right I employed a complicated three foot move sequence to get into the right position for that move, the third being moving my LF down to the lower of the three holds that it was possible to flag onto. Being weak as fuck it was only this convoluted faggotry that made the moves possible for me but the point is, if you were smaller, then the step down might not be necessary and the solid position would certainly be achievable by using one of the two higher flaggable edges.
Hope this helps. The problem took me forever so those footholds are firmly imprinted in my brain!
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in which case you do, i apologise. There is a difference between saying something is hard and saying something is soft for the grade, namely, having done the route or problem.
stop talking fucking bollocks
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in which case you do, i apologise. There is a difference between saying something is hard and saying something is soft for the grade, namely, having done the route or problem.
stop talking fucking bollocks
:agree: one of the most outstanding contradictions in recent UKB history (unless there is a tinge of sarcasm that hasn't translated well over t'net).
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I'm just amazed nobody's called me a dick yet on this thread.
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You dick :)
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I agree with Tim.
I'll try and chip in my two penneth about most of these problems this afternoon.
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My opinion is Simpson's link is solid 8a+, Press low left is very soft 8a+ or top end 8a, Tsunami is as hard as press LL, press LR is top end 7c+, press kneeling is soft 7c+, BSD LR is nails (hard 7c+). Never tried Big belly but I've touched the holds and they're wank so it probably is hard. Oh yeah and Dancing fish is solid 8a, in my opinion anyway
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I agree with
paul er, I mean Shy Ted
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BSD LR is nails (hard 7c+).
I wish!
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My opinions:
Kudos (either way) 7b
Kudos original (using the original smear foothold out left) 7c
Kudos Sitter 7b+
Bigger Tail 7a+
Bigger Tail Sitter 7b+
Kudos Traverse 7a+
Johnny G 7b+ (using the holds as you would get them as part of Bigger Belly makes this harder, but from standing you can work your hands into much better positions for the jump).
Bigger Splash Direct 7b/+
Tsunami Eliminate 8a
Bigger Splash Right Sitting 7c+
The Pinch 7b+
The Press 7b+
The Press Kneeling 7c+
The Press Right Sitting 8a (if this gets down graded you should just take out the kneeling start, as if the sitter adds nothing you may as well do it from a proper start.)
Bigger Splash 7a+
Bigger Prize 7a
Press Left Sitting: I think that this is significantly harder than the start of In Hell, and most other 8as, although I've only tried it via the matching method. In relation to other problems: would Superman get 8a+ in other areas?, and which magnesium limestone 8as is it easier than?
Dancing Fish: Is this just a morpho eliminate or is it the line of The Pinch from sitting? ie. could you theoretically match the pinch hold? (I haven't tried this, just wondering if I should bother?)
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Press Left Sitting: I think that this is significantly harder than the start of In Hell, and most other 8as, although I've only tried it via the matching method.
what on earth are you saying? are you trying to suggest this may be 8a+? you've said you've only tried it, this implies you've not done it yet you seem to have an opinion about it's grade, yet you agreed with tim. i don't really know what to say :-\
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Dancing fish is the sitter into the pinch and finishing up bigger tail. You could do it matching, although this would be nails! It looks like a massive move and obviously it is easier if you are tall (when is it not ;)) but it is definitely possible for a lot of people. Think a lot of people look at the move and dismiss it. Its good though and should get done more often, plus you get to rumble up a little higher!
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Dense you turnip you should read what people actually post rather than what you think they post.
Tim made the point that it's hard to justify a claim of easy for the grade if you haven't done a problem, which seems pretty sensible and I tend to agree with although will concede there will be exceptions.
Obviously if you haven't done something and it is of a grade that you feel you can climb then a claim of hard for the grade makes sense, again there will be exceptions.
Come on, does this simple shit really need explaining in such explicit detail?
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Dense you turnip you should read what people actually post rather than what you think they post.
Tim made the point that it's hard to justify a claim of easy for the grade if you haven't done a problem, which seems pretty sensible and I tend to agree with although will concede there will be exceptions.
Obviously if you haven't done something and it is of a grade that you feel you can climb then a claim of hard for the grade makes sense, again there will be exceptions.
Come on, does this simple shit really need explaining in such explicit detail?
What was that?
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A problem that is not mentioned on here but should definitely go in the guide is the pinch but to the bigger splash jug rather than the side pull. Ned did it last summer but think someone said Miles might have done it to, whatever but it is a good move, probably about 7c+.
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Press Left Sitting: I think that this is significantly harder than the start of In Hell, and most other 8as, although I've only tried it via the matching method.
what on earth are you saying? are you trying to suggest this may be 8a+? you've said you've only tried it, this implies you've not done it yet you seem to have an opinion about it's grade, yet you agreed with tim. i don't really know what to say :-\
What Nick said. Cheers.
Plus, at what point did I suggest a grade for this? You've just made that up to fit your rant.
Stating that you think a problem you haven't done is harder than (part of) a problem you have done is not the same as stating a grade for something you haven't done.
Obviously everyone will have a personal opinion of a problem that they have tried, but I think the opinion of someone who hasn't done said problem should hold significantly less weight than someone who has. Big talk from people who have failed to do something is just that.
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Lee, can I point you in the direction of your post from the sweet thing thread....
;)
to be honest i agree with johnny. i tried it years ago with brad of brads wall fame. nearly latched the top move, a lot, and i can't jump out of a bunched position. johnny however can, the top move had never seen 8a, i would have been quite happy to tick 7b+ for it, maybe 7c.*
(In case that's too cryptic you seem to be suggesting a grade without doing something.) :whistle:
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Kudos Traverse 7a+
I'd forgotten about this.. I'd definitely say 7a+ rather than 7b. I think it's the easiest problem on the wall except bigger splash. Certainly easier than kudos or bigger tail IMO.
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I'm sorry, but OF COURSE you can have a valid opinion of a grade without having completed a problem/route. As human beings we are very good as using our past experience and integrating all manor of different information and variables to make judgements. If a person has sufficient experience, and has spent sufficient time on a problem, and has done all the moves and some decent links, they can formulate an opinion as to how hard the porblem will be. We're not gerbils.
What about people who have done a problem a number of times? I would suggest that their opinion is less valid, as problems feel easier and easier as motor programs become more permanent.
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What about people who have done a problem a number of times? I would suggest that their opinion is less valid, as problems feel easier and easier as motor programs become more permanent.
This is my biggest bug bear in climbing. Locals getting stuff wired then downgrading it.
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Once again I am in complete agreement with The Sausage.
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So just to summarise then, we've established that whether you've done a problem or not its perfectly possible to have a completely valid or totally invalid opinion of the grade. Glad we cleared that one up.
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Obviously everyone will have a personal opinion of a problem that they have tried, but I think the opinion of someone who hasn't done said problem should hold significantly less weight than someone who has. Big talk from people who have failed to do something is just that.
Not always. Recently someone (who has done it) claimed, in all seriousness, that the Prow at t'Tor is French 7a+.
Most climbers wouldn't even have to fail on the Prow but merely look at it to arrive at a more accurate grade.
Not the best example as its a route rather than a problem I know.
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Obviously everyone will have a personal opinion of a problem that they have tried, but I think the opinion of someone who hasn't done said problem should hold significantly less weight than someone who has. Big talk from people who have failed to do something is just that.
Not always. Recently someone (who has done it) claimed, in all seriousness, that the Prow at t'Tor is French 7a+.
Most climbers wouldn't even have to fail on the Prow but merely look at it to arrive at a more accurate grade.
Not the best example as its a route rather than a problem I know.
That's an example of one single person's opinion? Of course you are going to have inacuracy and inconsistency regardless of who or what problem we are talking about. I still think that if you polled the opinion of lots of people who have done a given problem, and lots of people who haven't, the results from those who had would be more valid.
I'm sorry, but OF COURSE you can have a valid opinion of a grade without having completed a problem/route. As human beings we are very good as using our past experience and integrating all manor of different information and variables to make judgements. If a person has sufficient experience, and has spent sufficient time on a problem, and has done all the moves and some decent links, they can formulate an opinion as to how hard the porblem will be. We're not gerbils.
You can, but as I said before, in my opinion it will hold less weight than someone who has actually done the problem.
What about people who have done a problem a number of times? I would suggest that their opinion is less valid, as problems feel easier and easier as motor programs become more permanent.
as you've just said, we're not gerbils, and as such should be able to take this into account when offering grade opinions.
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it often isn't the case though is it? People who have things wired think they're easy.
Even when people aree going well and things feel easier its a much easier assumption to go for "thats soft" than "I'm a Hero"... ;D couple that with pseudo modesty and you're unlikely to get a true reflection of anything.
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That's an example of one single person's opinion? Of course you are going to have inacuracy and inconsistency regardless of who or what problem we are talking about. I still think that if you polled the opinion of lots of people who have done a given problem, and lots of people who haven't, the results from those who had would be more valid.
It was an illustration that some peoples opinion irrespective of their experience of a problem or a route can be wayward. Polling opinion is the long term answer when there are enough to poll. Grading is best done by consensus - the bigger the sample the better.
In terms of an individual judgement personally I would weight an opinion on a grade more on how experienced and reliable the person was who gave it rather than what style they had done or attempted a problem or route. You would also tend to factor in morphology, their stengths and weaknesses and how much below or above their normal grade they werre commenting on especially if intending to have a go yourself.
Relative levels of steely finger strength is I would think a big factor in swaying opinion one way or the other at Kudos Wall - but as I have only failed on Kudos what would I know!! ;)
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Sort your quotes out IO#1! (http://www.shredguitars.com/images/smilies/oldfogey.gif)
So just to summarise then, we've established that whether you've done a problem or not its perfectly possible to have a completely valid or totally invalid opinion of the grade. Glad we cleared that one up.
Exactly.
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That's an example of one single person's opinion? Of course you are going to have inacuracy and inconsistency regardless of who or what problem we are talking about. I still think that if you polled the opinion of lots of people who have done a given problem, and lots of people who haven't, the results from those who had would be more valid.
It was an illustration that some peoples opinion irrespective of their experience of a problem or a route can be wayward. Polling opinion is the long term answer when there are enough to poll. Grading is best done by consensus - the bigger the sample the better.
In terms of an individual judgement personally I would weight an opinion on a grade more on how experienced and reliable the person was who gave it rather than what style they had done or attempted a problem or route. You would also tend to factor in morphology, their stengths and weaknesses and how much below or above their normal grade they werre commenting on especially if intending to have a go yourself.
Relative levels of steely finger strength is I would think a big factor in swaying opinion one way or the other at Kudos Wall - but as I have only failed on Kudos what would I know!! ;)
All that makes sense, but the original discussion, brought up by Tim, was with regard to people failing on problems (or not even pulling on) then declaring them easy, and I don't think that these opinions should count for much when considering grades for guidebooks.
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Sort your quotes out IO#1! (http://www.shredguitars.com/images/smilies/oldfogey.gif)
I kept trying and lost the will to live. Soz.
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Something wierd seems to be going on with the quoting. I've tried to change that twice, and I'm pretty sure I've got it right, but it keeps posting like that?
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All that makes sense, but the original discussion, brought up by Tim, was with regard to people failing on problems (or not even pulling on) then declaring them easy, and I don't think that these opinions should count for much when considering grades for guidebooks.
Who was doing that though? Also, as I tried to point out in an earlier post, there is a difference between "declaring something easy" and saying that you believe it to be a certain grade (and "hard" or "soft" within that grade).
I can see why someone would be frustrated with someone else saying that a problem they've done is piss when the second person hasn't done it but that's not the issue. It's just about having an opinion of what grade something is and I agree with shark that there are other more pertinent issues to consider when (weighing up if someone's opinion is worth considering or not so much) than if they have completed the problem or not.
Sometimes those that have may have more of a vested interest in inflating or deflating the grade!
Something wierd seems to be going on with the quoting. I've tried to change that twice, and I'm pretty sure I've got it right, but it keeps posting like that?
No you two are just dicks. ;)
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All that makes sense, but the original discussion, brought up by Tim, was with regard to people failing on problems (or not even pulling on) then declaring them easy , and I don't think that these opinions should count for much when considering grades for guidebooks.
Who was doing that though?
I thought this was more of a general discussion than specific to this thread, but if you would like examples from this thread: Joe, Dave (and maybe you, or have you done all of these problems? {genuine question, not just being arsey})
as I tried to point out in an earlier post, there is a difference between "declaring something easy" and saying that you believe it to be a certain grade (and "hard" or "soft" within that grade).
I should have been more explicit: I meant easy for the given grade, or easier than the given grade.
Sometimes those that have may have more of a vested interest in inflating or deflating the grade!
Absolutely, but that is a different issue.
Dick.
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your first paragraph doesn't make sense andy. what are you saying? joe n dave haven't done all the probs so have no valid opinion? you're asking jasper sharpe, not wanting to go down on him but you're asking jasper fuckin sharpe if he's done something before you'll listen to his opinion? not being arsey just asking. plus i didn't fit words on you suggesting 8a+ for that problem to fit my rant, you said the move was substantially harder than any 8a you'd done, in simple english this implies that the move was substantially harder than any 8a you'd done, oh wait, substantially harder, 8a. whats next?
can't make any sense of your post either scouse. bringing up a quote of me saying sweet thing was never 8a but not doing it only goes to reinforce what i've said many times. you don't need to do a problem to know what grade it is, or is not. i know its not 8a i don't need anyone else's opinion, and if someone tells me it is 8a i will think they are an overgrading dick, or a strong midget ;)
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your first paragraph doesn't make sense andy. what are you saying?
Are you still pissed?
Jasper asked who, in this thread, had been offering down grades without having done a problem.
The answer is Joe, Dave and maybe him.
joe n dave haven't done all the probs so have no valid opinion?
As I keep saying, I think that their opinion of the grade of a problem that they haven't done is less valid than that of someone who has.
plus i didn't fit words on you suggesting 8a+ for that problem to fit my rant, you said the move was substantially harder than any 8a you'd done, in simple english this implies that the move was substantially harder than any 8a you'd done, oh wait, substantially harder, 8a. whats next?
1. I didn't suggest a grade, you've just made that up.
2. I didn't say the move was substantially harder than any 8a I have done.
3. I didn't mention individual moves at all.
Please read more carefully before ranting.
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I would just like to clarify here that i haven't offered a downgrade or indeed any grade on anything I ain't done on this thread.
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That's alright, anything you've done will get down graded anyway.
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Press Left Sitting: I think that this is significantly harder than the start of In Hell, and most other 8as, although I've only tried it via the matching method.
what on earth are you saying? are you trying to suggest this may be 8a+? you've said you've only tried it, this implies you've not done it yet you seem to have an opinion about it's grade, yet you agreed with tim. i don't really know what to say :-\
i refer you to to point 3, maybe 2 moves then. same same :P
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i refer you to to point 3, maybe 2 moves then. same same :P
I'm glad you've conceded the other points, but if you can do Press Left Sitter, or In Hell start in two moves then I'll buy you a pint, as your dynoing skills must be coming on leaps and bounds.
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i didn't concede the other points, one at a time. not yet tho, too tired
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have you been bumming again?
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i didn't concede the other points
I thought we'd moved on with our lives, but good for you.
not yet tho, too tired
How can you be tired? You've just spent the day swanning round the wall, pretending to be a climber.
More importantly, how's the dream tide looking?
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i may not be able to climb but by god i can drink coffee
jonathon changed plans last night, going this morn instead. will get update later. maybe look at going tomos? monday will be chaos
looks like it may dry up today so watch your delicate skin on the grit. i'm going to go swanning