UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => get involved: access, environment, BMC => Topic started by: tommytwotone on February 19, 2018, 08:52:33 pm
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So after the Whitehouses thing, then Dave's article in Project Magazine, then the 3rd Rock thing, then the Almscliff thing...having spent a few weeks ill and mulling the thing over I've had an idea and thought I'd post it up here to gather opinion before I go too far down the line with it.
It feels to me like there needs to be a programme of basic education out there, going to the places where new climbers are starting up and offering to go through what good looks like / what is to be avoided when making the transition to outdoors. You will note I avoided the phrase "best practice", which I despise with a passion.
I would happily spend some time putting together a brief presentation, in conjunction with / alongside BMC (think it would be good to involve someone from BMC to ensure messages are factually correct and in line with policy / guidance or whatever) and anyone else who gives a flying one about this stuff.
I'm conscious of tone, i.e. it would need to be as non-preachy as possible, and more of a "learn how to get the best out of bouldering outdoors" or whatever, and most probably aimed primarily at new people, who have probably never been outdoors before. I think there is potential to make it look nice / be informative and vaguely entertaining as well.
I guess my next thought is where would I take it? Would it be something people would go to? How would it get publicised?
Off the top of my head, round here (Leeds / Bradford area) there are at least 5-10 walls within an hour's reach of my house - I'd happily travel to them, go through the thing with as many people as they can drum up.
Would the wall owners/staff on here think that would fly? Would it be falling on deaf ears or preaching to the converted?
My other thought was doing it as a Dan Turner style vlog thing that could be shared around instead / as well...
Apologies if this is all a bit vague, I've been seething about a few of the things I've seen on social media etc the last few weeks and rather than whinge from my armchair I think it that action may be the best course of...errr...action.
Feel free to DM me if you'd rather not post up in public but I am (despite the non-serious tone of a lot of my posts) serious about this.
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Great idea 3T. Sounds like something the BMC should support/help with? Thinking in particular of Gus/Grimers Dog behaviour video... Shark - you're the man on the inside?
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Good effort. Further BMC involvement in promoting crag behaviour as part of supporting transition from in to outdoors would be good.
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Doing something about this came up in discussion with Rob Dyer (BMC access dude) last week in the office, we were talking about posters for climbing walls and whether a "good practice when climbing outside" poster would be useful. I'll give him a nudge but I believe he's already working on it. Stuff like this has been done before, like the bouldering 10 commandments posters etc. A video might be a good idea as well. The big question really is that we can try lots of different things, but will they change peoples behaviour? The "no dogs" signs at Bamford are often ignored, for example. Got to be worth a shot though before we lose any more quality venues.
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Dan, something that came up in the Whitehouses thread which I thought was a good idea was getting the pad manufacturers to start putting a slip on crag etiquette (or whatever you want to call the instruction manual for not behaving like a dickhead) into the pads that they ship. It puts things under people's noses in a place that's difficult to ignore. I think posters at walls can only have a limited effect because there are so many things stuck on the wall at climbing wall.
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Seeing Ben’s “wall walking” post on Instagram and Duma’s Bovey parking post on Dartmoor Bouldering; we’ll be lucky if we can climb anywhere legally, soon.
So, yep, any good leaflets/posters etc, I’ll put them up at the wall.
Vlog? I have a redundant tv in the cafe, I’ll play it on a loop as long as you add subtitles.
Make a funny movies of it (Grimmer?) and you’ll get better results.
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Dan, something that came up in the Whitehouses thread which I thought was a good idea was getting the pad manufacturers to start putting a slip on crag etiquette (or whatever you want to call the instruction manual for not behaving like a dickhead) into the pads that they ship. It puts things under people's noses in a place that's difficult to ignore. I think posters at walls can only have a limited effect because there are so many things stuck on the wall at climbing wall.
I like this idea but maybe it would be better if it were climbing shops distributing the flyers. Which might work well with independent/climber owned shops who I imagine would be happy to get involved. but be more problematic with the Go Outdoors/Cotswolds/Decathlons of the world.
The cost could be large though, how many flyers would you need?
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Surely the best way of doing something like this now would be across Twitter / Instagram / Facebook? Or at least, a majority of effort on those, backed up by some posters?
I’d be interested in getting involved in doing something illustrated. Possibly. The way I see it, its the kind of thing that relies on an an approach other than being dictatorial / don’t do this don’t do that.
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Totally agree that more needs to be done to safe guard our crags.
All ideas mentioned so far in this post would have an impact in my humble opinion so why not pursue all of them.
I would be happy to approach my 2 local walls about putting posters up. Not sure I have the skill set to offer more support, other than politely challenging climbers who don't respect the crags when I'm out and about.
To give this campaign impact with younger climbers what is really need is an endorsement of a famous climber (cheesey but effective). I think that's what the 10 bouldering commandments poster lacked,
it also alienated non Christian climbers!
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Most of the problems are just basic country code stuff and despite years of that being drummed into peoples heads through tv campaigns, posters and booklets it still doesn't get followed. I dont think posters at walls would work.
In my opinion you just need to confront those who you see doing it. I know people dont like to do this but its the best way. Likewise with landowners you just need to go and talk through it and most, not all, are pretty cool.
There have been Problems at the Stell and kyloe in the county and i was quite taken aback with climbers reactions which were predominantly" fuck the toff landowners we have a right to do the fuck what we want when i have driven an hour to get here". In both cases the issues have been resolved by face to face discussions with the land owners.
I think bouldering has caused the problem to become more common as we have started climbing on some tiny lumps of rock that no one has ever looked at before and its often done on mass. Its a shame when we cant climb on something but maybe we just have to accept it sometimes.
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Could approach companies such as moon, dmm and alpkit to put said flyers in with any bouldering pads sold ? Even the distributors for the other pads may be persauded
Sorry missed that it's already been said
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I suspect flyers in pads will simply get immediately chucked away upon buying the pad, no?
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Some walls do beginners bouldering days or evenings out. Could be a good idea to make sure they are getting the message across about what is and isn't considered acceptable behaviour at the crag. As someone who was brought up in the outdoors this behaviour seems incredibly obvious to me but I guess if you've never been to the countryside and suddenly start going out bouldering you might be ignorant of the standard common sense practices.
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Most of the problems are just basic country code stuff
which is mostly just common sense and courtesy.
Very tricky subject because people are basically selfish bastards when asked to inconvenience themselves, even when they know what they should do: no dogs doesn't apply to mine beacuse he's a good boy; not damaging walls doesnt apply because the path is muddy; I can climb even though it's wet because I drove for an hour. You see someone else do something and assume it's ok to do it as well.
I'm a bit sceptical about this, I'm not sure lectures or leaflets or posters will work although obviously something needs to be done so it's something to try.
Guess the question is who has influence on new/young/disrespectful climbers, who will they take notice of? Is it folk who post instagram, facebook, youtube? UKC? These are possibly the outlets where the message will have an audience (whether it get across is another matter).
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Most of the problems are just basic country code stuff
It is, but I’m not sure everyone sees it like that. I started climbing via the old school walking leading into scrambling leading into climbing route. That’s probably not true for 95% of new boulderers. If your first exposure to bouldering is at the Depot in Manchester say, your perception is big groups, load music, lots of chalk and shouting encouragement. When you head outside for the first time, you and your group take those perceptions with you and transpose it to the countryside.
People don’t necessarily have an appreciation of the issue with access, noise pollution, visual pollution, crag etiquette etc (I’ve found myself using more chalk now than I ever used to and have to actively try to reign it in, whack holds instead of excessively brushing them etc). They also might not mind changing their behaviours, they might just need a push in the right direction.
I agree this needs to be a multi-faceted approach. BMC video pushed out across social media, playing on wall café TVs, posters, active engagement from walls with new customers, especially big new bouldering walls that are opening up bouldering to people more used to an urban environment. Consideration of others seems to be on the general decline (maybe I’m getting old but the yoof seem to be less inclined to consider their impact on others – e.g. tinny shite music from phone speakers on every street corner) so I think we (the climbing community) need to do something.
Well done TTT for starting the discussion. I’m quite happy to chip in and help.
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I'm a bit sceptical about this, I'm not sure lectures or leaflets or posters will work although obviously something needs to be done so it's something to try.
Doing something is always going to be better than doing nothing, just need to target it best. Even if it enlightens just a 1/4 (or 1/10) of people climbing outside, it's better than nothing.
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The message needs to resonate with the crush everything, fist bump, YOLO brigade. It’s not easy...
People who are fed a diet of YouTube videos of their heroes turning up at crags and crushing / #vanlife / bushshit, etc will want to emulate that.
A polite piece of paper isn’t going to change very much.
I agree that the message would be more potent if it came from the influencers.
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I agree this needs to be a multi-faceted approach. BMC video pushed out across social media, playing on wall café TVs, posters, active engagement from walls with new customers, especially big new bouldering walls that are opening up bouldering to people more used to an urban environment.
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I think we (the climbing community) need to do something.
I agree, there's no single solution.
And the argument that we've been having these discussions for years and nothings changed is not helpful. Probably the previous discussions, 10 commandments posters etc did have an effect. But times change and posters need updating and supplementing with social media and the like now. This isn't something we do now to fix forever it's on going drive that will continue for as long as people go climbing.
Climbers as a community are doing things. Dan's Vlog, #respecttherock, @chosscollective , bmc videos, ukc articles, indoors to outdoors courses etc
But we can always do more. It's good that this discussion is taking place. This thread is good place to have a discussion and any suggestions are welcome.
Although it feels a bit bureaucratic I think a set of guidelines, produced by the BMC, that makes suggestion about how this problem can be tackled. I.e. what can walls do, what can the bmc do, what can shops do, what can suppliers/manufacturers do, what can individuals do.... would be a useful start. Perhaps that already exists?
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Ok, here goes.
I'll suggest that what influences new climbers, and probably young climbs most is social media and that would be the way to engage them.
So the BMC (in conjunction with?) produce a series of 5-10s videos about the issues which relate to normal life. E.g. A group of climbers driving down an urban street looking for a parking space, they pull into a gap and start unloading pads as the owner of the drive they've just blocked jumps out of his car and starts to remonstrate in the background. The scene transforms to the same scene in front of a gate with a farmer now in the background. Then the tagline something like "you wouldn't block a drive so why would you a gate?".Think before you park.
BMC gets brands on board who get their athletes to use the videos as an intro to their promo vids or just to post them occasionally when they see an example of bad behaviour at a crag.
Also identify (I hate to use this term) British climbings biggest "social influencers" and get them to do the same. And of course anyone else could sign up to the campaign and do the same.
Videos need to be short not to exceed attention span and so folk aren't tempted to forward through them.
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Mountain Training should integrate this into assessments for indoor quals such as CWA as well as outdoor where most candidates will already have a clue.
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Brands sponsoring the influencers could have a credit system, whereby the sponsored heroes get points and rewards for continually pushing home the message across their SM platforms.
Climbers should support these brands.
We're a long way off that when the likes of Nalle basically brags about how many long haul flights he takes a year!
Posters? Really?
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Ooh and for every video of bad behaviour one of some wads demonstrating correct behaviour, no we can't park there because.... we'll have to go elsewhere and walk a bit further.
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We're a long way off that when the likes of Nalle basically brags about how many long haul flights he takes a year!
Bit tight, he does a lot to publicise the font clean ups when they come around and it pretty good at warnings not to climb at Red Rocks after rain etc. Carbon footprint issues are not the same as access issues!
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So the BMC (in conjunction with?) produce a series of 5-10s videos about the issues which relate to normal life. E.g. A group of climbers driving down an urban street looking for a parking space, they pull into a gap and start unloading pads as the owner of the drive they've just blocked jumps out of his car and starts to remonstrate in the background. The scene transforms to the same scene in front of a gate with a farmer now in the background. Then the tagline something like "you wouldn't block a drive so why would you a gate?".Think before you park.
:2thumbsup:
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Can we not just nip this bullshit in the bud now by disbanding the BMC via a debilitating series of motions of no confidence; and let climbing slowly revert to its former underground, small number of participants, glory? This would lead to loads of bouldering walls going bust but it'd be for the greater good of the real thing.
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Not the same, but similar. He always comes across as painfully unaware of how his IG posts of flight tickets might be perceived.
I work in travel (so will burn in Hell) and deal every day with the increasing ‘bucket list’ mentality of people.
I view the ignorance we’re seeing in respect of bouldering as part of the same ‘problem’.
Probably, like a lot of National Parks worldwide or most notably like Heuco, you need strict controls. To save us from ourselves.
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Can we not just nip this bullshit in the bud now by disbanding the BMC via a debilitating series of motions of no confidence; and let climbing slowly revert to its former underground, small number of participants, glory? This would lead to loads of bouldering walls going bust but it'd be for the greater good of the real thing.
What you mean is get rid of the outdoors brands?
Look at fell running. A representative body that doesn’t promote the sport, yet more and more participants and issues. I’m sure it has nothing to do with Inov-8/Salomon etc .
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Them too.
In almost anything involving people not objects, the source of most issues can be identified by asking 'who benefits?'.
Increased participation. Who benefits?
Existing and new businesses benefit - guidebook publishers / outdoor equipment & clothing brands / instructors, guides/ specialist therapists, fitness coaches and other health-related folk on the fringes of climbing.
Professional climbers benefit.
Sponsored climbers (and those wishing to become sponsored) benefit.
Some people at the BMC who'd welcome a bigger organisation benefit.
An as yet unidentified person in the future who might not have 'done climbing' might benefit.
Climbers don't benefit.
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Bet you quite like those Nomic axes ;)
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Can we not just nip this bullshit in the bud now by disbanding the BMC via a debilitating series of motions of no confidence; and let climbing slowly revert to its former underground, small number of participants, glory? This would lead to loads of bouldering walls going bust but it'd be for the greater good of the real thing.
I think the genie is out of the bottle; people have realised that climbing and other mountain sports are way more fun than the team sports that schools tried to convince them were good.
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Bet you quite like those Nomic axes ;)
Hehe, yes I do although the wobbly head issue is such a shoddy oversight (and so typical of Petzl/French disdain) for such an otherwise great piece of design.
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I think the genie is out of the bottle; people have realised that climbing and other mountain sports are way more fun than the team sports that schools tried to convince them were good.
I think what we're seeing currently is a fad. The Olympics will undoubted fuel the fashion but long-term that's all I think it is - a fashion that will move on. And some people at the BMC are keen to ride the wave. The growth of climbing walls looks like a bubble to me and I think some of them won't survive beyond 10-15 years.
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I started climbing about 1999 and have seen steadily increasing participation since then. Pretty decent 2 decade fad.
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Yep, I started around 1990 and have seen increases. But I do wonder because you hear (and I think I remember) there being far more people out tradding at certain points in time then at others. Same goes for sport-climbing and bouldering. I should have said I think we're currently in a bouldering fad - indoors and out. I don't think it'll keep increasing the way some people seem to think, in the long term. General increases, sure, in line with population growth.
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I'd prefer to educate people to maintain access rather than take a fairly high stakes punt that the problem will go away when the 'fad' does.
The idea that the BMC is predominantly responsible for the increase in participation is laughable. As such, the above point also applies in my mind; better to use it as a force for good to maintain access than criticise at every opportunity like some are wont to do. Apologies if it was a tongue in cheek response which I have spectacularly misread.
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. I should have said I think we're currently in a bouldering fad - indoors and out. I don't think it'll keep increasing the way some people seem to think, in the long term. General increases, sure, in line with population growth.
That said, I do think this is a fair comment.
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I should have said I think we're currently in a bouldering fad - indoors and out. I don't think it'll keep increasing the way some people seem to think, in the long term. General increases, sure, in line with population growth.
Whether this turns out to be true or not (and to bring us somewhere towards back on topic) there are issues arising with the amount of people current;y engaged in the sport/pastime/way of life, and that's why we need to get our house in order now.
Interesting you say about sport climbing, I don't partake, but my friends who do say that Malham and Kilnsey have never been busier, is this not borne out in Wales too?
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After Almscliffe, Kilnsey and Malham are the two main crags which come up regularly on the bad behaviour radar, so this isn't just a case of fist bumping indoor bouldering wads causing chaos when they emerge from under their Moonboards and head outside.
Bounced a few ideas around this lunchtime with Grimer and a few other folk for film ideas. Hopefully we can scrape a budget together for it, having spent all our cash on a gold-plated Beastmaker for the office we're a bit strapped right now.
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The idea that the BMC is predominantly responsible for the increase in participation is laughable. As such, the above point also applies in my mind; better to use it as a force for good to maintain access than criticise at every opportunity like some are wont to do. Apologies if it was a tongue in cheek response which I have spectacularly misread.
It was a tongue in cheek comment that you've spectacularly misread. Of course I don't think the BMC is 'predominantly responsible' for more people bouldering and acting like twats.
That said, and off topic, I do believe there are some who want the BMC to grow in ways I personally think aren't beneficial to the majority of current climbers but are beneficial to a minority of vested interests: the BMC itself, business and sponsors, pro teams and athletes.
The logical response by participants in a niche outdoor activity that impacts the playground where it takes place, is to keep a lid on it and not try to get a huge commercial bandwagon going. That isn't happening. Why? Follow the money.
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My apologies- must have been getting hangry at lunchtime!
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Bounced a few ideas around this lunchtime with Grimer and a few other folk for film ideas. Hopefully we can scrape a budget together for it, having spent all our cash on a gold-plated Beastmaker for the office we're a bit strapped right now.
Considering the seriousness of all this, and the long-term implications involved, perhaps the BMC should make some sort of original, creative statement?
Maybe some sort of snappy slogan, written on a bus...?
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If your first exposure to bouldering is at the Depot in Manchester say, your perception is big groups, load music, lots of chalk and shouting encouragement. When you head outside for the first time, you and your group take those perceptions with you and transpose it to the countryside.
People don’t necessarily have an appreciation of the issue with access, noise pollution, visual pollution, crag etiquette etc
:agree: Indoor climbing has a much broader appeal than rock climbing because it's had all the potentially unpleasant things removed from it. The problem we have is that what a lot of people who are ending up at the crags like most about climbing (the immediate, convenience elements) simply isn't compatible with the great outdoors and they don't realise that.
Whatever form any publicity takes, I think it needs to emphasise the differences between indoor climbing and rock climbing.
-The wall is owned by climbers who want you to have a great time and make money from it/ The crags are owned by people who don't make any money from your climbing and have no incentive to be inconvenienced by you.
-The wall is closed when you can't climb there/ the crag is always open- you've got to use your own judgement.
-The problems at the wall will be reset so it doesn't matter how badly you trash them/ the problems at the crag will never, ever be reset so take care of them.
-etc. etc.
I reckon there's potential in that for a good video if made with the right touch, in the manner of that one where Gus is a dog. You could also shove in some personal safety-type differences (The wall has to pass assesments that it's as safe as possible/ the crag is a piece of rock in a field that you may very well need stretchering away from etc.)
I really think the message from the BMC needs to be less "You'll all love rock climbing but please try and remember to behave yourself" and more "This is what rock climbing is- unlike indoor climbing it isn't all fun and games. Stay indoors if you don't fancy it."
But also, the most important and immediate thing any of us can do is to challenge crap behaviour whenever we see it.
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I think the genie is out of the bottle; people have realised that climbing and other mountain sports are way more fun than the team sports that schools tried to convince them were good.
I think what we're seeing currently is a fad. The Olympics will undoubted fuel the fashion but long-term that's all I think it is - a fashion that will move on. And some people at the BMC are keen to ride the wave. The growth of climbing walls looks like a bubble to me and I think some of them won't survive beyond 10-15 years.
:D thats what everyone was saying in 92 when I started... its not slowed down since...
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Good article by Rob Greenwood on the other channel:
https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/skills/respecttherock_-_the_sad_story_of_whitehouses-10208
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Doing something about this came up in discussion with Rob Dyer (BMC access dude) last week in the office, we were talking about posters for climbing walls and whether a "good practice when climbing outside" poster would be useful. I'll give him a nudge but I believe he's already working on it. Stuff like this has been done before, like the bouldering 10 commandments posters etc. A video might be a good idea as well.
I think it's worthy of wider consideration, discussion with big-name brands within climbing with a view of getting buy-in from them and pushing it via their 'athletes'. If sticking 5No. cans of sugary drink X in an Instagram photo per week works, I can see this having an impact on the younger generation with respect to access (little and often rather than a one-time blitz). I can't see a poster having the same impact.
The "no dogs" signs at Bamford are often ignored, for example. Got to be worth a shot though before we lose any more quality venues.
I'm coming to the conclusion that people (including climbers) are inherently selfish whether they own a dog or not.
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I had a stop a pair from climbing over the wall between Badger Rock and Little Font yesterday (Kentmere).
They stopped when prompted but I got the impression they were aware they weren't doing the right thing before I spoke. I'd describe them both as young.
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I do believe there are some who want the BMC to grow in ways I personally think aren't beneficial to the majority of current climbers but are beneficial to a minority of vested interests: the BMC itself, business and sponsors, pro teams and athletes.
The logical response by participants in a niche outdoor activity that impacts the playground where it takes place, is to keep a lid on it and not try to get a huge commercial bandwagon going. That isn't happening. Why? Follow the money.
A complete red herring and you can't easily put genies back in their bottles. Participation increases have little to do with the BMC but responding to those increases in appropriate ways have lots to do with the BMC, if we wish to retain the best access situations.
Dan is right:
"After Almscliffe, Kilnsey and Malham are the two main crags which come up regularly on the bad behaviour radar, so this isn't just a case of fist bumping indoor bouldering wads causing chaos when they emerge from under their Moonboards and head outside."
The problems I've seen are much less about outdoor newbies, it's usually well established climbers. How many major banned crags were due to ignorance compared to willfully bad behaviour or plain laziness?
I welcome video campigns, updated 10 commandments and even posters but we won't stop problems without a hard look at the bad behaviour of a minority already in our clique, who feel rules don't apply to them.
I've probably trespassed more than most climbers on behalf of guidebooks but have always tried to be polite to landowners (we even got permission to climb for the day at ERF rocks by making the owner laugh... the gods of grit laughed as well as we had to go and meet Grimer soon after), I'd never block gates or partly block narrow roads; wouldn't dream of shitting in someone's back garden (part of the Eagle Tor ban) and always try to have a quiet chat with those climbers doing things that could threaten access (to be honest, sometimes having more luck with access denying landowners ,..naughty kids often react badly when caught). If we all behaved well, things would obviously improve. Honest role model videos about experienced climbers behaving badly would certainly help here: outdoor newbies won't be the cause of the problems at Kilnsey.
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There's an interesting article on the other channel about 'sustainable' outdoor behavior in general.
https://www.ukhillwalking.com/articles/features/sustainability_in_the_outdoors_depends_on_fair_shares-10191
To me all this discussion flags up the fact that it's so rarely seen to be the done thing to 'not' go to a certain venue. When did you ever see a video, #insta update, blog (or whatever) in which the protagonist says "I was going to go to crag xxx but decided that actually it's getting a bit trashed and it would probably be a good idea to give it a rest, so instead we've gone to crag yyy"?
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Social media from "influencers" seems like the obvious way to go with this IMO.
The amount of fuss when the IFSC sold live streams to a PPV company had many top-level climbers posting all over their Insta and FB about the wrongs of this. I've not seen anything from them (even the UK ones) about general do's & don't of outdoor climbing. Arguably/Cynically this may have been because the IFSshambles would've had direct financial impacts on them...
If people like Shauna, SBC, Nalle, Dave G, Sharma, Ondra et-al came out with a quick united message about outdoor etiquette, it would have an impact considerably over a poster at the local wall.This would be for internationally relevant stuff; tick marks, tidiness, respect for the outdoors etc.
Even small stuff like maybe less "driving to the crag" sections, more "post session chalk brushing" bits.
Ideally you could/would also just have a smaller UK campaign; Beastmakers, Moon, DMM, BMC and their ambassadors, using Whitehouses as a flashpoint to put out a quick reminder around how to behave in the great outdoors. Whether a quick video, a shared list of points (too preachy IMO) or something else, it needs to be sincere and snappy. Yoofs can smell bullshit.
Many non-rural folks (not just Londoners), probably wouldn't know you shouldn't walk on dry-stone walls, and might not even realise that gate's actually there for a purpose. Not out of willfull ignorance, just because they've not grown up in that environment. In a similar vein, many might not even know about the BMC, let alone the RAD.
The selfish folks, who do know this but ignore these just need to bow to peer pressure - the more people are informed, the more likely it is for someone to call them out if caught.
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Social media from "influencers" seems like the obvious way to go with this IMO.
If people like Shauna, SBC, Nalle, Dave G, Sharma, Ondra et-al came out with a quick united message about outdoor etiquette, it would have an impact considerably over a poster at the local wall.This would be for internationally relevant stuff; tick marks, tidiness, respect for the outdoors etc.
Even small stuff like maybe less "driving to the crag" sections, more "post session chalk brushing" bits.
Inclined to agree, though you do have to wonder sometimes.. I cleaned big ticks off big holds on S+M at Newstones at the weekend AT FACE HEIGHT
How dim do you have to be to not be able to locate an 8" long edge at eye level? Even when climbing past it's a pretty easy item to stick a foot on. Other, similarly pointless donkey-marks abounded. :shrug:
There's education, and crass stupidity. Regular hero posts about 'cleaning off those ticks y'all' got to worth a try though.
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Probably wont work (FB link) but looks like blowtorching in Font..
https://www.facebook.com/bleauboulders/videos/2057589564515478/?fref=gs&dti=1566324270279682&hc_location=group
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Also linked on UKC with some explanatory text.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/destinations/font_ethics_no_sand_under_your_climbing_shoes-682036
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Rather sad to see the BMC appearing to condone if not promote climbing on wet grit today on their IG feed....
https://instagram.com/p/BjhSpZvDe7p/
I’m sure this is off message but does feature #respecttherock....
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The grit climbed today was dry. About the only dry grit they could find.
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Was the mod climbed dry?
A better message would've been to go to the wall when it started raining.
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The grit climbed today was dry. About the only dry grit they could find.
There were pictures (now deleted) of blokes in cagoules climbing clearly drenched trad routes with the caption “nothing’s stopping these guys”.
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I thought climbing easy trad in the rain was a great British tradition?
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Hi everyone
As I was there, I’ll provide a bit of context, but maybe no answers. It was a local meet/festival organized by local climbers, so when it says “festival” think 20 psyched local climbers, not many hundreds being coordinated by a BMC machine.
The weather closed in. There was chat about whether to head to the wall, but some keen people led the way to Sadcocs (sp?) wall. This was bone dry and some people tried the traverses and the straight ups whilst most just watched, getting wet in the drizzle. A couple of guys, at one point, went off and did a Mod in their trainers.
So basically a pretty normal day. There are questions about whether the whole thing should have been cancelled, but then how do you “cancel” a few psyched locals from finding a dry bit of rock. One to discuss...
However, hands up, we played it wrong on social media. The guys there were keen to tell people a bit about it, promote Steve Macs talk, with an earlier time due to the rain and get people to the pub where we had prebooked a load of food. However, out of context those posts did send out the wrong message, especially a snap of the guys on the Mod, so as soon as I saw them (no reception at crag/pub), I took that pic down.
So it was all with the best of intentions, but we agree message looked wrong out of context, and we will put some things in place to make sure it doesn’t happen again.
I suppose the other question is that for years, we’ve all sought out dry bits of rock on a soggy day, but is it time to stop that? Or have you already stopped doing that? People do climb very easy routes in the rain for fun (I don’t) what are your thought on that? Probably a Summit or web article in all this, get in touch at alex@thebmc.co.uk if you’d like to get involved.
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However, hands up, we played it wrong on social media. The guys there were keen to tell people a bit about it, promote Steve Macs talk, with an earlier time due to the rain and get people to the pub where we had prebooked a load of food. However, out of context those posts did send out the wrong message, especially a snap of the guys on the Mod, so as soon as I saw them (no reception at crag/pub), I took that pic down.
So it was all with the best of intentions, but we agree message looked wrong out of context, and we will put some things in place to make sure it doesn’t happen again.
Great - I suspected that was the case.
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It was so obvious from the social media posts that there was going to be a negative reaction, but I do think it was overblown. A wet mod in trainers? Not something I'd get up in arms about. Finding dry rock under sadcocs. Fair play to them. The rock on the bouldering in the photos was evidently dry.
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It was not overblown, if the BMC are seen to be condoning climbing on wet rock, then that's bad. The distinction between a mod in trainers and Zippy's at the Plantation may not be entirely obvious to climbers less familiar with the outdoors. Well done Alex for acting quickly and getting it taken down.
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The grit climbed today was dry. About the only dry grit they could find.
There were pictures (now deleted) of blokes in cagoules climbing clearly drenched trad routes with the caption “nothing’s stopping these guys”.
I arrived late so wasn't aware of the mod. My apologies for the misinformation. Still climbing minor mods in the wet isnt an issue at all to me. Climbing lower grade trad in tne rain has a long history and is still common, and not just when caught out. Now, starting up polished 3 star grit in the wet is not to be recommended and boildering on wet grit is always a bad idea but the BMC has to be proportionate and telling people never to climb any lower grade routes in the rain in the UK would be ridiculous.
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Telling people not to climb on wet rock would not be ridiculous. Suggesting it's fine because the route is easy or because it's off a lower quality is what's ridiculous. Just because it was acceptable maybe a few years ago doesn't mean it should be now and definitely not for the governing body to be promoting. Where do you draw this imaginary line, which routes are okay? Secondly, the rock once broken or worn is changed forever and for the sake of what? Just come back another drier day.
Just because it isn't an issue for you doesn't mean you should take it upon yourself to risk ruining the rock.
Some people didn't have an issue with chipping or bolting certain crags, doesn't make it okay to do without consensus.
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I'm sticking with my view. The BMC also represents mountaineers and doing mod moves on the easier climbs/ harder scrambles in the wet or on wet rock is a normal climbing game for a bad weather day in the UK. You are not going to be breaking crucial holds on a mod and there is no three star mod on gritstone that we need to protect from the polish perspective (all the worst damage on lower grade grit 3 star routes was done with nailed boots on wet rock decades back). Protecting wet boulder problems (a good thing) by actively discouraging wet scrambles IS ridiculous.
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Comparing wet scrambles on Welsh mountain rhyolite or Cuillin gabbro to NE grit/sandstone is also ridiculous. But fair enough individuals will play around on easier routes in the rain even on the grit edges. The problem is when the BMC starts promoting it. Its not just the action its the stage its on. And its not going to improve peoples image of the organisation...
Its another problem with climbing festivals too. As soon as youve organised something weeks ahead and invited dozens of people its very hard to call it off if the forecast looks bad (though they clearly should have..). I guess these events gain a bit of momentum. But instead of a day where you might have one team trying a wet mod, you now have dozens of folks who wouldnt be up there otherwise 'making the most of it' by climbing wet climbs/boulders. I
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I'm sticking with my view. The BMC also represents mountaineers and doing mod moves on the easier climbs/ harder scrambles in the wet or on wet rock is a normal climbing game for a bad weather day in the UK. You are not going to be breaking crucial holds on a mod and there is no three star mod on gritstone that we need to protect from the polish perspective (all the worst damage on lower grade grit 3 star routes was done with nailed boots on wet rock decades back). Protecting wet boulder problems (a good thing) by actively discouraging wet scrambles IS ridiculous.
Problem is - the IG post (and IG story posts) mixed up two blokes heading up a wet gritstone wall in full trad mode with Steve Mac and bouldering on a dry bit of rock whilst it was piss wet through everywhere else - all in the same post. So really the lines between all were well and truly blurred in my view.
Anyway - I think we're all agreed it was a social media mistake by the BMC and shouldn't have happened. non?
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I agree that it doesn't make sense to conflate volcanic with grit. But there is a distinction between very easy, ledgy climbs which beginners might enjoy going up in the wet and getting some mileage in, and gritstone bouldering where the holds are more fragile and are used more intensively. When I was relatively new to climbing I can certainly remember doing easy mountain routes in the rain and even going up some easy things at Almscliff (like Cup and Saucer) while we waited for the crag to dry out. Not something I'd enjoy now but it was fun at the time (in the kind of way that I imagine Scottish winter climbing through spindrift can be fun). I really don't think that we did any damage to the rock.
I think the real issue here is that the social media posts were ill-judged because some fool somewhere is likely to get confused and not be able to make the distinction between a VDiff and a V3. I suspect also that a lot (not all) of the people who were posting their dismay on social media (Choss Collective for instance must have been over the moon that there was a controversial thing to post about) were 50% concerned about the rock and 50% delighted that a bandwagon to jump on had landed itself in their laps. A great opportunity to signal your virtue.
As for organised events, I don't think this is a good justification for not having them at all, just for making sure that there is a suitable Plan B that is advertised from the start. In this case it might have been going for a walk (the BMC represents that as well I believe) along the edge, dropping down past Hellifield and then coming back towards Embsay for the pub stop and lecture.
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I think the real issue here is that the social media posts were ill-judged because some fool somewhere is likely to get confused and not be able to make the distinction between a VDiff and a V3. I suspect also that a lot (not all) of the people who were posting their dismay on social media (Choss Collective for instance must have been over the moon that there was a controversial thing to post about) were 50% concerned about the rock and 50% delighted that a bandwagon to jump on had landed itself in their laps. A great opportunity to signal your virtue.
You must need a big telescope to see down from your lofty pedestal Will!
The issue is (as you rightly pointed out before having to score some points against lesser mortals) is that there nuance in the situation which is lost on Instagram and therefore can be easily misconstrued. It's not dissimilar to the pad stashing discussion previously - there has to be difference in between individual behaviour and the example and stance put forward by the BMC.
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The issue is that there nuance in the situation which is lost on Instagram and therefore can be easily misconstrued.
Exactly..
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:agree:
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I think the real issue here is that the social media posts were ill-judged because some fool somewhere is likely to get confused and not be able to make the distinction between a VDiff and a V3. I suspect also that a lot (not all) of the people who were posting their dismay on social media (Choss Collective for instance must have been over the moon that there was a controversial thing to post about) were 50% concerned about the rock and 50% delighted that a bandwagon to jump on had landed itself in their laps. A great opportunity to signal your virtue.
You must need a big telescope to see down from your lofty pedestal Will!
The issue is (as you rightly pointed out before having to score some points against lesser mortals) is that there nuance in the situation which is lost on Instagram and therefore can be easily misconstrued. It's not dissimilar to the pad stashing discussion previously - there has to be difference in between individual behaviour and the example and stance put forward by the BMC.
The big telescope is just one of the crosses that one must bear when one is right all the time... ;)
Anyway, I take your point. The reason I was making the case that the response was overblown was that the nuance was there to see if you looked closely before diving into the backlash. If it hadn't been there I'd have joined in as the organisers wouldn't have had a leg to stand on. I don't just defend the BMC on anything. I might be getting my Instagram and Facebook posts confused here, but I definitely saw caveats about the bouldering photos that clearly said that the rock being climbed on was dry and that people were only getting on with clean and dry feet.
That's not to say that the posts weren't ill judged because the reaction and chance for misinterpretation was entirely predictable.
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I’d echo what others have said. The BMC social media was ill judged and the backlash was inevitable. It’s important that the BMC as a representative body stays ‘on message’. My impression is that the organisers know and regret that they dropped the ball and will learn and not repeat the mistake. I also think that whilst it’s ill-judged of the BMC to post pics of people climbing a mod in the rain, the actual climbing of a mod in the rain is almost certainly fine if the climb is slabby on big round holds. It’s not really a matter of grade it’s a matter of hold type/shape. Yes the BMC should avoid shining a light on grey areas on a media where the context and nuance is lost, but also it should avoid making absolutist ‘thou-shalt-nots’ to climbers unless it is unquestionably necessary and proportionate. If that means once in a while a hold is broken when a less sensible climber fails to self-regulate I still think this is preferable to stopping people doing things which cause no harm on a precautionary basis. It also strikes me as potentially divisive when higher grade climbers whom it doesn’t affect promote a ban which only impacts lower grade climbers. My preference is that the BMC gives a simple message backed up with detailed advice which retains the nuance. In most instances climbers if given this sort of advice will make sensible decisions, the fact that inevitably a small minority will not is insufficient justification for attempting to create blanket bans, as if somehow the blanket ban will be any more effective at correcting the outliers any more than the advice was anyway.
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I am probably misinterpreting bits of this thread but is it really infra dig and non-U to climb in the wet? Should Rick, John and I have abbed off Gimmer Chimney in 1973 when the rain came rather than serving as human drainpipes up to the top at which point out came the sun and Incy Wincy Spider...........
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Yes, I'd say you were misinterpreting the thread. Climbing on wet sandstones risks damage that climbing on wet volcanics emphatically does not. How the BMC presents this in its feeds is the issue, the one in question was a bit careless, lesson learned I expect.
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I agree the BMC post was unwise but only because of the fuss and the possible conflation, not because of the irrelevant damage to the mod. Boulderers and climbers on grit need to wake up to what is going on where serious damage is being done and think a bit harder about specific solutions rather than complaining about non issues and by being too general discouraging things that are simply not a problem. Cams on dogged 3 star classics are chewing up breaks, especially at softer grits like Birchen but also on 3 star VS on Stanage (have a look at High Neb Buttress). Numerous useful flakes that never should have had a cam behind them have been blown. Grit bouldering has been trashed in a few places from too much climbing on wet rock, long after people must have known it mattered, from Kebs to Newstones. Popular grit that stays drier is being trashed by overbrushing and dirty shoes. Problems look terrible at times due to excessive unneccesary tick marks and overchalking, even sometimes of footholds. The climbing of wet grit mods by bumblies is traditional, won't stop and in contrast does next to no measurable damage any more (unlike when nailed boots were still common.... I've pulled a foot depth of turf off a rarely climbed Laddow Diff and found almost mirror polish underneath). Perspective and preventing the real problems is the issue. Clear messages can be had: never boulder on wet grit; aways ensure shoes are clean; if the route is too hard get better and try again then rather than constant falls or doggjng that leads to grinding of cam placements.
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FWIW, I think I've done the infamous Mod in question when a non-climbing friend asked to go out and try it. I think it's one called The Jolly Pleasant Scramble. Goes up the first section which is a few ledgey bits that you can see in the photo. You can place a low runner and then you go out right and up a relatively long, completely gearless, and completely holdless friction slab. I mean, it's low angled and piss, obviously, which is why it's a Mod. But in trainers? When piss wet through? Give those guys a medal.
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I thought we had moved on from the leader never falls? If you leave the gear in between attempts its probably less damage than having one go every week until you can do it. The reason the climbs at birchen are wrecked is more likely to be because people are placing gear in exactly the same place and then pulling it out rather than people keep falling on it, no? Sounds like someone should do some science anyway.
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Boulderers and climbers on grit need to wake up to what is going on where serious damage is being done and think a bit harder about specific solutions rather than complaining about non issues and by being too general discouraging things that are simply not a problem.
Putting your worthy list of issues with popular grit venues aside, you can hopefully see that posting photos of people climbing on wet grit with no context (as is generally the case on Insta, who is going to read caveats in a photo description?) coukd well add to your list of problems rather then reduce it.
As an experienced rock cat you know that it’s fine to put your socks over your climbing boots and do some wet severes, new trad climbers following BMC’s insta are not going to get the subtleties involved in what is and isn’t acceptable. If easy trad is ok in the rain why not easy bouldering? There aren’t any holds to pull of Crescent Arête.
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I thought we had moved on from the leader never falls? If you leave the gear in between attempts its probably less damage than having one go every week until you can do it. The reason the climbs at birchen are wrecked is more likely to be because people are placing gear in exactly the same place and then pulling it out rather than people keep falling on it, no? Sounds like someone should do some science anyway.
I don't mind falls after a decent attempt what bugs me is the repeat falls and dogging and grinding that we observed time after time after time on the 50+ visits to the crag when we wrote it up for Froggatt, and most often on the climbs that happen to have the most damage. You could hear the cams eating the rock while incompetants lurched around on a half way hanging rest on Orpheus Wall. Not quite science but pretty sound observational evidence. I'd happily see a ban on cam use on damaged sandstones.
On the point made by teestub its partly because bumblies got their first (they were climbing on wet mods before bouldering was even a thing) but more because comparative damage is massively different....mods have barely changed in generations since the nails were abandoned... popular boulder problems are really suffering: the surface is starting to go on CA and one of the best problems of the grade in the UK might well be trashed in a decade. Also this seems to me less about wet rock and more about brush damage and climbing with poor technique or dirty shoes... good ninjas simply don't trash grit. The chalked footholds on CA that caused a stir not so long back were also depressing.
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Reminds me of back in the day, (not really, it was about 12 years ago) when I first took Millso and Crouchy to Curbar and had to explain to them that Sharma-esgue roaring whilst falling off Gorilla Warfare was not the done thing. Does this not happen any more?
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Nice peice on the subject from Monkeyboy here: https://www.theprojectmagazine.com/features/2018/7/27/magicwoodsconservation
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Sounds more like he thinks it is just too popular than anything else.
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An easy fix would be making the grades brick hard in the guide. People love holiday grades.
Why does no one go to Buoux anymore?
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Simples, there are fewer Instagram likes if the grade is smaller.
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I particularly enjoyed all of the posts from various 'athletes' for 'world earth day' before proclaiming where they were off to next.
It's hardly surprising that the French and Spanish are becoming ever more secretive with newly developed venues.
Wasn't there an article by Nick Bullock (search has failed me) that commented on the death of uncertainty with regards of conditions? Lifts/conditions threads may be useful but I think they're a bit contributor to certain negative behaviors.
Also I read an article (again, I've failed to find it) suggesting that those of a certain demographic are essentially the worst-offenders in terms of their own environmental impact i.e. like myself; I'm a complete hypocrite as my attitude to travel and other more convenient choices such as recyling are at opposite ends of the spectrum.
Perhaps we should all be looking in the direction of Carlisle Slapper?
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The idea of fallow times is interesting....
For some of our crags (e.g. Plantation) leaving them over Summer would allow the veg to recover.. problem is the honey pot sites are caned all year around.
Do the lime crags fare better? Because there are periods in the year (long periods) when they are unclimbable?
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I particularly enjoyed all of the posts from various 'athletes' for 'world earth day' before proclaiming where they were off to next.
A bit like the Team Sky cyclists wearing kit that decries plastic in the oceans while hoying plastic bottles directly into the countryside.
Following pro climbers on Insta is a real eye-opener regarding how much air travel is involved.
For some of our crags (e.g. Plantation) leaving them over Summer would allow the veg to recover.. problem is the honey pot sites are caned all year around.
Outside of what many would consider the season is when the most clueless climbers are there too.
It seems to me that in the time this forum’s existed bouldering’s gone from the preserve of the experienced, “in the know” minority to the first choice of the hapless newbie. It’s not great environmentally, particularly as bouldering has the highest ratio of climbers:nature of all the disciplines.
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Bidons only go to fans or into designated disposal areas these days, big fines otherwise. They are also made of starch based plastics these days so any that don’t get picked up degrade a lot faster.
I agree with your other points.
I guess you would need at least a full year for veg regrowrth and probably some treatment of the hard packed soils to ehnace growth in those areas? Without management you’d probably also only get nettles etc coming through. In general limestone crags are generally going to be in more fertile areas than grit ones.
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Anyone remember how quickly (or not) crags recovered during foot and mouth (2001?)
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Bidons only go to fans or into designated disposal areas these days, big fines otherwise. They are also made of starch based plastics these days so any that don’t get picked up degrade a lot faster.
Cheers for that. I’m clueless about cycling and only really watch the TdF ‘cos my girlfriend has it on- she’s just told me that she’s explained the rubbish zone thing to me in the past as well. :oops:
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An easy fix would be making the grades brick hard in the guide. People love holiday grades.
Why does no one go to Buoux anymore?
A route developer from Pobla de Seguro (just north of Tremp) openly told me that he put the grades about a letter and a half harder than in Terrades/Bruixes on his new favourite crag because he like to keep it to a smaller group of climbers. Works until a commercial guidebook operator discover the crag and "fix" this.
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An easy fix would be making the grades brick hard in the guide. People love holiday grades.
Trip to Magic Grades anyone? Softlands next year?
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An easy fix would be making the grades brick hard in the guide. People love holiday grades.
Trip to Magic Grades anyone? Softlands next year?
:clap2: :clap2:
"Hard rock, soft grades"
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The idea of fallow times is interesting....
For some of our crags (e.g. Plantation) leaving them over Summer would allow the veg to recover.. problem is the honey pot sites are caned all year around.
This was suggested ten years or so again when we did the restoration work at the Plantation. I wasn't in favour for a few reasons. Mainly because the issue was that the vegetation had been lost and the subsoil underneath was being rapidly eroded. Vegetation needs soil, so closing these areas would have had little to no effect while limiting access for no reason. Then you've got the issue of folk obeying or breaking the restrictions becoming the focus of attention (as it can be with bird bans) rather than the success or not of the restriction.
The work we did concentrated on refilling the eroded areas and blocking drainage routes. It seems to have largely worked with the erosion having mostly halted and the vegetation now creeping in rather than back. The next step would have been topsoil, seed and a restriction. Again, we didn't go for that. Part of it was a case of wanting to see what happened first, and also I was far from convinced any vegetation, particularly newly established, would withstand the rates of footfall. Effectively we have footpaths ringing most of the boulders now and I think footpath style erosion control will be the only effective solution. Plus there were issues like sourcing the correct seed and topsoil etc.
There are a few spots I keep an eye on each time I go - Deliverance, NTBTA and The Storm. Deliverance is of course totally bare but seems not to be getting worse. NTBTA seems quite resilient but very weather dependent - at the moment it is bare, but in wet summer would have regrassed. Wet winters seem to affect it worse as it becomes mud. The Storm is perhaps the most interesting as it was gullying but was patioed. The cracks soon filled with soil and grassed over, worked very well but may be tricky on bigger areas.
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Perhaps we should all be looking in the direction of Carlisle Slapper?
Assuming you mean sticking mainly to climbing in the UK; having spent the last couple of years doing exactly that I can tell you it's hardly a carbon neutral approach given how many miles you have to rack up driving.
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Nice peice on the subject from Monkeyboy here: https://www.theprojectmagazine.com/features/2018/7/27/magicwoodsconservation
All those pictures of magic wood just make me want to go back!
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Perhaps we should all be looking in the direction of Carlisle Slapper?
Assuming you mean sticking mainly to climbing in the UK; having spent the last couple of years doing exactly that I can tell you it's hardly a carbon neutral approach given how many miles you have to rack up driving.
Yup. My hobby typically consumes 2-300 miles per week...
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I think CS has done more than a few trips to Scotland too, although they tend to be longer term, rather than for a weekend.
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Nice peice on the subject from Monkeyboy here: https://www.theprojectmagazine.com/features/2018/7/27/magicwoodsconservation
All those pictures of magic wood just make me want to go back!
Ha yes for an article about the damage being caused to Magic Wood, and the impact it's having on the beauty of the place, there sure are a lot of photos of it looking pretty beautiful and a remarkable lack of any showing the damage!
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I think CS has done more than a few trips to Scotland too, although they tend to be longer term, rather than for a weekend.
It's nothing compared to air travel though is it:
Colorado,
Sydney,
Turku,
Meteora,
for my massive hoof print this year alone. Last year was an even larger crater. How many weeks of driving at 2-300 miles a week do you need to do to catch up?
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Ok. In carbon - from what I’ve just looked up/calced.
400km a week in an economical diesel (100g/km) = 2000kg a year (roughly)
One return transatlantic flight is about 1000kg per person.
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I think CS has done more than a few trips to Scotland too, although they tend to be longer term, rather than for a weekend.
It's nothing compared to air travel though is it:
Colorado,
Sydney,
Turku,
Meteora,
for my massive hoof print this year alone. Last year was an even larger crater. How many weeks of driving at 2-300 miles a week do you need to do to catch up?
#humblebrag
Honnold posted this carbon offset site recently, if you fancy a bit of plenary indulgence to cleanse your soul! https://mossy.earth/pages/membership
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#humblebrag
Yep. I can't remember the last time i drove more than an hour from my house to climb. Family holidays and other activities though.....
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In the broader context of this topic, UKC are running a comp at the moment to win a little portable boombox which is marketed as something to be used at the crag or otherwise in the hills. How do some people not understand that going into a public, shared, space and dominating it with your own preference is unacceptably rude? Particularly a space which some people value for its own characteristics and ambience, which is entirely dub free.
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Yes I saw that, what a joke.
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Yes I saw that, what a joke.
Yes - shows what $$$$ rules at UKC....
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In the broader context of this topic, UKC are running a comp at the moment to win a little portable boombox which is marketed as something to be used at the crag or otherwise in the hills. How do some people not understand that going into a public, shared, space and dominating it with your own preference is unacceptably rude? Particularly a space which some people value for its own characteristics and ambience, which is entirely dub free.
I'm going to win this, follow you around, and leave it next to your bag playing some Streisand whilst you're struggling up E3's at Almscliff.
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How do some people not understand that going into a public, shared, space and dominating it with your own preference is unacceptably rude?
Have to say a find all the opprobrium over this incredibly overweening. Have you really never listened to music away from a plug socket? I have - on a big wall, when camping, on a beach, in a bothy etc etc. I'd never use one 'at the crag' but otherwise it's quite easy to check if you are bothering anyone, you just check if there's anyone in earshot. If there is, ask them and even if they say yes try to choose something that won't offend. Choose well, and I've found a bit of John Martyn in a remote bothy can even thaw out a curmudgeonly scotsman who'd hoped to have the place to himself...
Pretending it is always unacceptable and that such a competition is totally unacceptable is just virtue signalling isn't it?
Pretending everyone is so stupid that we must pretend we all adhere to such blanket rules is counter-productive, imho. No rules, promote responsible behaviour, guide those who stray in the right direction.
While we're on the subject, I'm in the market for a new one if anyone has any recommendations? Not bothered about bluetooth but compact, decent battery and usb charge is a must.
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Ok. In carbon - from what I’ve just looked up/calced.
400km a week in an economical diesel (100g/km) = 2000kg a year (roughly)
One return transatlantic flight is about 1000kg per person.
I think you've missed my point (#humbelbrag #cyberw*nker aside); a holiday in Scotland, rather than flying (anywhere) is surely preferable:
Sheffield > Torridon = 470 miles / 756km; or 1500km return. At 100g/km, that's 150kg (or 15% of your quoted transatlantic flight). Of course sitting at home trying to hold my breath might be the best solution.
My point is/was that it's really easy to focus on the micro impacts that bother us (unsightly chalk, erosion to boulder problems / paths) and ignore the much bigger picture.
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At least Paul you're not in the same camp as many of us here, as [citation needed] I read somewhere that if you really care about the environment, CO2 emissions etc then the one thing you should absolutely not do is have a child, let alone more than one.
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How do some people not understand that going into a public, shared, space and dominating it with your own preference is unacceptably rude?
Have to say a find all the opprobrium over this incredibly overweening. Have you really never listened to music away from a plug socket? I have - on a big wall, when camping, on a beach, in a bothy etc etc. I'd never use one 'at the crag' but otherwise it's quite easy to check if you are bothering anyone, you just check if there's anyone in earshot. If there is, ask them and even if they say yes try to choose something that won't offend. Choose well, and I've found a bit of John Martyn in a remote bothy can even thaw out a curmudgeonly scotsman who'd hoped to have the place to himself...
Pretending it is always unacceptable and that such a competition is totally unacceptable is just virtue signalling isn't it?
Pretending everyone is so stupid that we must pretend we all adhere to such blanket rules is counter-productive, imho. No rules, promote responsible behaviour, guide those who stray in the right direction.
While we're on the subject, I'm in the market for a new one if anyone has any recommendations? Not bothered about bluetooth but compact, decent battery and usb charge is a must.
This is my bothy speaker of choice :punk:
https://soundboks.com/product/soundboks-2/
(https://images.soundboks.com/sb17/ogImage.jpg)
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I read somewhere that if you really care about the environment, CO2 emissions etc then the one thing you should absolutely not do is have a child, let alone more than one.
Dogs (and pets in general) surely, there's the impact of producing food to feed them then they become gas machines themselves. I read somewhere that in the US they contribute 1/3 the amount that cars do.
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At least Paul you're not in the same camp as many of us here, as [citation needed] I read somewhere that if you really care about the environment, CO2 emissions etc then the one thing you should absolutely not do is have a child, let alone more than one.
Quite! It dwarfs any other life choices you make substantially, and that’s without considering the potential multiplicatory effects into the future.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/12/want-to-fight-climate-change-have-fewer-children
I read that dogs were similar to cars in CO2 output: small dog=running a Nissan Micra, Big Dog=running an Escalade.
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One thing about the environmental impact of having kids vs having a dog or running a car is that there is an outside chance that your kid might have the idea or work on the team that contributes something significant to the future of humanity, which with all due respect, your dog is never going to do..
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One thing about the environmental impact of having kids vs having a dog or running a car is that there is an outside chance that your kid might have the idea or work on the team that contributes something significant to the future of humanity, which with all due respect, your dog is never going to do..
A weak arguement unfortunately, as the exact opposite is obviously also equally likely (i.e. they contribute something significantly bad). For example they could be the genius scientist that works out how to extract all the remaining oil from every reservoir.
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Or they could be the self promoting climber who encourages loads of people to fly half way round the globe to touch a rock.
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While we're on the subject, I'm in the market for a new one if anyone has any recommendations? Not bothered about bluetooth but compact, decent battery and usb charge is a must.
I was impressed with Gus' choice although I'm not sure it plays anything other than techno.
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While we're on the subject, I'm in the market for a new one if anyone has any recommendations? Not bothered about bluetooth but compact, decent battery and usb charge is a must.
I was impressed with Gus' choice although I'm not sure it plays anything other than techno.
I’ve a spare one (small) that I found at the playground earlier in the year if you want it. (Left by the partying yoofs the night before)
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Re: kids, the flipside of the argument is that raising children is social labour that is necessary for society to function (who do you think is going to look after you when you're frail/pay your pension if not your/someone else's kids). Obviously we could do with having fewer kids, but if you're losing sleep over this at an individual level you may want to ask whether you are overly woke and seek help accordingly.
https://twitter.com/TraceyFans/status/1009806379593367552?s=19
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It’s good when you make an argument (who will look after us?) then refute it in the next sentence (ongoing population growth currently 1%/83million extra people per year).
It’s also cute that you think we will be getting pensions!
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There isn't population growth due to babies in the UK. Any growth is due to immigration.
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It’s good when you make an arguement (who will look after us?) then refute it in the next sentence (ongoing population growth currently 1%/83million extra people per year).
I did state that we could do with having fewer kids, but replacement of the population is necessary for society to function.
Obviously where the growth is happening is as important as the magnitude. UK population growth is fairly modest on a world scale with most of the population increase happening in the global south. This isn't a problem at the moment but if the UK as a whole decides to stop having kids then we're going to need to invent a device that can wipe your wizened old ringpiece from Senegal.
Huw, the ONS reports that for 2016, net migration was 250K. 178K more births than deaths in the same year.
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I think what happens currently is that if there’s shortages of employees in a particular field (doctors for example) this requirement is met by overseas labour coming to the country. So in your delightfully phrased example, the person from Senegal will be suitably financially encouraged to come to the UK to take care of my rear end. As such the location of population growth is not critical, and as you noted in your following paragraph, net increase in the UK last year was 0.8% so not much to worried about just yet.
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I think what happens currently is that if there’s shortages of employees in a particular field (doctors for example) this requirement is met by overseas labour coming to the country. So in your delightfully phrased example, the person from Senegal will be suitably financially encouraged to come to the UK to take care of my rear end. As such the location of population growth is not critical, and as you noted in your following paragraph, net increase in the UK last year was 0.8% so not much to worried about just yet.
Fuck me, I hope they're not going to fly over here (I'm being facetious now).
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My bad. I'm miss remembering a map. Was interesting, ill see if I can dig it out. Either way population growth is low as in the UK relatively, as pointed out in the UK. It gets a bit wanky when you start saying don't have any kids, unless you can enforce it on a population it isn't going to happen.
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It gets a bit wanky when you start saying don't have any kids, unless you can enforce it on a population it isn't going to happen.
What about veganism, recycling, cutting down driving, flights, etc? These are all personal choices that people make to reduce their carbon footprints that aren’t ‘enforced’ on a population.
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To bring this back on topic, I guess you could argue that second or third generation climbers will hopefully know how to behave at the crag and might even mentor said itinerant Senegalese bum wipers in such decorum. That's what I'm hoping for my son anyway.
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Not that I disagree entirely Tim, I think the decision to become a parent is likely slightly more complex than the examples presented above. A person might rationalise the decision not to have children in terms of ecological / altruistic? reasons but I’d suspect there’s more powerful motivating factors at play.
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so to wrap this all up, don't post sick pics of magic wood on social media if you have a big online following, otherwise the world will go to shit. Allez.
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This might be relevant
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwZ0ZUy7P3E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwZ0ZUy7P3E)
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Possibly wandering off topic a tad here.
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Not that I disagree entirely Tim, I think the decision to become a parent is likely slightly more complex than the examples presented above. A person might rationalise the decision not to have children in terms of ecological / altruistic? reasons but I’d suspect there’s more powerful motivating factors at play.
I agree entirely Dan, I'm just trying to present the arguments (my daughter is 8 weeks old in case anyone got the impression I'm rabidly anti children!).
JB, what if the second and third generation climbers rebel against their parents' good examples and secretly sneak out to the crags with massive bluetooth speakers and dirty climbing shoes?
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JB, what if the second and third generation climbers rebel against their parents' good examples and secretly sneak out to the crags with massive bluetooth speakers and dirty climbing shoes?
The ghost of Will Hunt haunts them beneath Demon Wall Roof?
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Will has only been to the cliff twice.
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If anyone's ghost haunts DWR it'll be mine (or Nathaniel's)...
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Ah, but is your objection to bluetooth speakers as pronounced as Wills? Think thats in the job description.
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No haunting from me, sorry. Groaning and the rattling of chains have as little place on the crag as a strong bass line. Unless you're at Malham when Shark is on the Oak, of course.
my daughter is 8 weeks old
I had no idea. Congratulations, Tim.
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Has someone finally chained him to it? I always thought it was the best option, he will get the bonus of training heavy too.
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Not that I disagree entirely Tim, I think the decision to become a parent is likely slightly more complex than the examples presented above. A person might rationalise the decision not to have children in terms of ecological / altruistic? reasons but I’d suspect there’s more powerful motivating factors at play.
I agree entirely Dan, I'm just trying to present the arguments (my daughter is 8 weeks old in case anyone got the impression I'm rabidly anti children!).
JB, what if the second and third generation climbers rebel against their parents' good examples and secretly sneak out to the crags with massive bluetooth speakers and dirty climbing shoes?
Errrrmmm... uhhh.... yeah, what he said!
(Quietly takes photos from early 80’s out of album to burn them. No one remembers that massive fucking Boombox anyway, or the fires on Dancing ledge, or lobbing bangers at climbers on Stanage, or sleeping on the van roofrack in the carpark of The Moon, or any of the other crap that we got upto because we were young and dumb)...
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If anyone's ghost haunts DWR it'll be mine (or Nathaniel's)...
He just needs to do DWR footless and his soul shall be forever freed.
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Ah, but is your objection to bluetooth speakers as pronounced as Wills? Think thats in the job description.
Is this strong enough?
https://twitter.com/AndyDoggerBank/status/1024654900133851137
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Is this strong enough?
https://twitter.com/AndyDoggerBank/status/1024654900133851137
You're hired!
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Not that I disagree entirely Tim, I think the decision to become a parent is likely slightly more complex than the examples presented above. A person might rationalise the decision not to have children in terms of ecological / altruistic? reasons but I’d suspect there’s more powerful motivating factors at play.
I agree entirely Dan, I'm just trying to present the arguments (my daughter is 8 weeks old in case anyone got the impression I'm rabidly anti children!).
Hypocrite! How do you sleep at night with the weight of your newborns carbon footprint on your conscience? Oh silly question, sleep is out the window now ;D
Congrats!
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Oh silly question, sleep is out the window now ;D
Congrats!
All the more time to don my (organic, fair trade) hair shirt and wring my hands!
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Ah, but is your objection to bluetooth speakers as pronounced as Wills? Think thats in the job description.
Is this strong enough?
https://twitter.com/AndyDoggerBank/status/1024654900133851137
Does “Human generated noise” include:
1: Screaming?
2: Snapping sounds from primary limbs shattering?
3: Splattering/ Wet thuds from accelerated bodies regaining static equilibrium?
4: The insistent blubbering of traumatised observers?
5: Other typical crag sounds, like “GET YOUR FUCKING DOG OFF MY UCKING SANDWICHES!” or “WHO’S BLOODY CHILD IS THAT? TELL THEM TO STOP DISMANTLING MY ANCHOR! Noooooo..... THUD”?
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I agree entirely Dan, I'm just trying to present the arguments (my daughter is 8 weeks old in case anyone got the impression I'm rabidly anti children!).
So it was you I saw with the baby in the park that one time :) congratulations!
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Congratulations Tim! 😊
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Congratulations Tim! 😊
!! News! Well done Tim!
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Thanks guys :)