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places to visit => indoor walls => competitions => Topic started by: gme on April 21, 2023, 10:29:28 am

Title: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: gme on April 21, 2023, 10:29:28 am
Probably needs a IFSC 2023 setting up.

Results coming in for quals today. Can someone explain to me how Max Milne is 15th with 2 tops 4 zone (6-10) and yet Hamish is 21st with 3 tops and 4 zones (6-7)

Am i just being thick.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: sherlock on April 21, 2023, 10:54:16 am
No, not thick just easy to miss.
Two groups, A & B, you need to look at both groups, Hamish 12lth in group A , Max 9th in group B.Top ten in each group go through.
Not over yet though!
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: erm, sam on April 21, 2023, 10:54:47 am
is it only on eurosport like last season?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Stabbsy on April 21, 2023, 10:55:12 am
Usually two different sets of qualifying boulders, so you need to finish top 10 (plus ties) in your set.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: sherlock on April 21, 2023, 11:00:14 am
is it only on eurosport like last season?
No qualis live don't think but as far as I can tell Semis and Finals on Discovery.
If memory serves it was a 3 year deal.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: gme on April 21, 2023, 12:18:05 pm
No, not thick just easy to miss.
Two groups, A & B, you need to look at both groups, Hamish 12lth in group A , Max 9th in group B.Top ten in each group go through.
Not over yet though!

I was being thick as i should have known that.

Why it doesn't show it in two groups on the IFSC website i will never know. It truly is a piece of shit. Took me 10 mins to even find the scores.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: edshakey on April 21, 2023, 01:08:35 pm
This'll make your life a lot easier

https://ifsc.results.info/#/
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: teestub on April 21, 2023, 01:38:52 pm
Ah ha the link I was looking for, thanks! Really not sure why that isn’t their front page rather then the horrendous results lay out there
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jwi on April 21, 2023, 02:17:05 pm
So 8 out of 20 in the women semis are Japanese? And 7 out of 20 in the mens? I noticed that 5 French men are through to the semis as well, but only one french woman, where notably Oriane Bertone and Fanny Gibert had surprisingly bad scores.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: gme on April 21, 2023, 02:25:45 pm
Only Jim through for UK.

I thought we might do well this season. Only 1st comp I guess.

Shows the depth of the field.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Bradders on April 21, 2023, 06:31:58 pm
Only Jim through for UK.

I thought we might do well this season. Only 1st comp I guess.

Shows the depth of the field.

Think I'm right in saying both Hamish McArthur and Toby Roberts would have made it if they'd been in Group B. Harsh.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: edshakey on April 21, 2023, 09:33:35 pm
Only Jim through for UK.

I thought we might do well this season. Only 1st comp I guess.

Shows the depth of the field.

Think I'm right in saying both Hamish McArthur and Toby Roberts would have made it if they'd been in Group B. Harsh.

I might be just pointing out what you already know... but Group A must have had easier boulders. It's impossible to compare when the boulders aren't two identical sets (sometimes a boulder or two are actual copies of each other but the rest are just the same kinda style/moves). So Toby and Hamish would probably have done similarly had they been in the other group.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Bradders on April 21, 2023, 09:38:16 pm
Ah right I didn't realise the boulders were different between the two groups.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: remus on April 21, 2023, 10:52:28 pm
Presumably there's a fair amount of luck in terms of who is in each group. If you end up in a strong group you could theoretically be well in to the top 20 (if you could make some perfect ranking of competitors), but not make the top 10 I'm your group and therefore be kicked out in favour of weaker climbers in the other group.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: edshakey on April 21, 2023, 11:46:26 pm
I might be wrong on this, but I believe the groups are derived from world rankings, or season rankings, or similar. So top of said rankings goes into group 1, second goes in 2, third in 1, so on, so on. That'd end up with as fair groups as possible, right?

Maybe Graeme can correct me on that at some point.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jwi on April 22, 2023, 10:43:31 am
I might be wrong on this, but I believe the groups are derived from world rankings, or season rankings, or similar. So top of said rankings goes into group 1, second goes in 2, third in 1, so on, so on. That'd end up with as fair groups as possible, right?

This is what I understand as well.

I guess it can be a bit of a lottery in Japan as their extra allowance of competitors due to organising would be ranked ≈ top 12 in the world if they were allowed to compete a full season but are currently unranked or have very sanbagged world rankings.

Women's semis must have been hard! Not many tops, and many slightly surprising names in the top 6. Miho Nonaka, Natalia Grossman and Futaba Ito all missed the final.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: remus on April 22, 2023, 10:54:15 am
I might be wrong on this, but I believe the groups are derived from world rankings, or season rankings, or similar. So top of said rankings goes into group 1, second goes in 2, third in 1, so on, so on. That'd end up with as fair groups as possible, right?

Maybe Graeme can correct me on that at some point.

Makes sense.

To add to jwi's point, I wonder if it's a bit more random early in the season, assuming the rankings are effectively a bit out of date because the field hasn't competed against each other recently.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: thunderbeest on April 22, 2023, 10:55:55 am
Max two tops at women semi,. The scores are really weird.
Is it getting more and more about luck?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: wasbeen on April 22, 2023, 11:11:01 am
I would be strongly in favour of scrapping the semis and having a 2 day final with half the competitors eliminated after the first day. There is just so much variability in the type of problems that can be set and effect of height etc. and a lot of potential for perceived unfairness.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: edshakey on April 22, 2023, 11:14:10 am
Max two tops at women semi,. The scores are really weird.
Is it getting more and more about luck?

Potentially, but also it's always hard to tell who's in form, and the general level of the field, in the first comp of the year. Added to that, lots of climbers at the top like Janja and Natalia spent most of last season asking for harder boulders. So i'm sure they can hardly have any complaints when that happens!

Only one boulder didn't get topped in semis, that's actually a decent set IMO. Especially since it had varying attempts to get the zone - better than a boulder where the top 10 all flash it, giving no separation

I would be strongly in favour of scrapping the semis and having a 2 day final with half the competitors eliminated after the first day. There is just so much variability in the type of problems that can be set and effect of height etc. There is currently a lot of potential for perceived unfairness.

I'm not sure I follow. Would it be 20 people do final part 1, and then 10 people do final part 2? Sounds a lot like the current system!  ;D
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: wasbeen on April 22, 2023, 11:20:41 am
Max two tops at women semi,. The scores are really weird.
Is it getting more and more about luck?

Potentially, but also it's always hard to tell who's in form, and the general level of the field, in the first comp of the year. Added to that, lots of climbers at the top like Janja and Natalia spent most of last season asking for harder boulders. So i'm sure they can hardly have any complaints when that happens!

Only one boulder didn't get topped in semis, that's actually a decent set IMO. Especially since it had varying attempts to get the zone - better than a boulder where the top 10 all flash it, giving no separation

I would be strongly in favour of scrapping the semis and having a 2 day final with half the competitors eliminated after the first day. There is just so much variability in the type of problems that can be set and effect of height etc. There is currently a lot of potential for perceived unfairness.

I'm not sure I follow. Would it be 20 people do final part 1, and then 10 people do final part 2? Sounds a lot like the current system!  ;D

Yes, but scores from the first half are carried forward.

I think it is fair to say that currently the results in the final and strongly influenced by the routersetters.

Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: edshakey on April 22, 2023, 12:00:02 pm
Ohh I see. Yes, there would definitely be some merit to that. I suppose it would be a slightly worse spectator sport, especially to those slightly less clued up on the rules, but that's not necessarily a reason to avoid it.


I think it is fair to say that currently the results in the final and strongly influenced by the routersetters.

I'm not massively convinced by this - are there some particular examples you're thinking of?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: wasbeen on April 22, 2023, 12:23:09 pm
I guess for me the obvious comp was the Olympics where Coleman got 2 tops and no one else got more than 1. So effectively the gold medal was decided by one boulder and the inability to comprehensively split the rest of the field. If they had stuck in a crack climb or a long reach and Ondra would have won gold.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: thunderbeest on April 22, 2023, 12:33:45 pm
A total of 3 tops in female finals isn't that impressive though.  With a max of 2 tops per person in the semi i would have thought they figured they were a but off with the grades.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: edshakey on April 22, 2023, 01:41:31 pm
I guess for me the obvious comp was the Olympics where Coleman got 2 tops and no one else got more than 1. So effectively the gold medal was decided by one boulder and the inability to comprehensively split the rest of the field. If they had stuck in a crack climb or a long reach and Ondra would have won gold.

Fair enough, I agree the setting in the olympics, with that format, was poor. But that format was always going to struggle. Glad it's in the past now.

A total of 3 tops in female finals isn't that impressive though.  With a max of 2 tops per person in the semi i would have thought they figured they were a but off with the grades.
4 in total, Brooke got 3. And flashed the zone on the other one. So really, only half of one boulder was too hard.

It all comes back to what would generally be seen as "The Janja Issue": are they setting for the top competitor, or the 6th? There have been many finals now where Janja or Natalia has topped all the boulders with ease, and multiple other people have not even topped one. Seems like a pretty impossible task to me, especially if 2 of the super-crazy-strong women are in it and need splitting.
I fully agree that there are some routesetting issues with IFSC comps, especially women's comps, but I don't really have many ideas for how to set better when there is such a range in quality, even in just the final.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jwi on April 23, 2023, 08:51:02 am
Didn't watch men's semi, but it must have been hard. Paul Jenf came up on top with 2 tops and 4 zones, Jongwon Chon second with 2 tops and 2 zones. 1 top and 2 zones were enough to get to the finals. All problems except the first got topped by someone though...
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Bradders on April 23, 2023, 09:43:04 am
Likewise didn't watch it, but not a single top for anyone outside the top 7....

And only the top 12 managed more than 2 zones!
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: HaeMeS on April 24, 2023, 01:58:11 pm
Mejdi Schalck and the seemingly impossible #4 from the men's final. With the right beta...   :clap2:
https://instagram.com/stories/mejdi_schalck/3087416768737873008?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY=
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Bradders on April 24, 2023, 04:21:36 pm
In his trainers as well.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: remus on April 25, 2023, 09:49:56 am
Didn't realise that the 3d models of the finals problems are available to browse online https://onlineobservation.com/competitions/WC_Hachioji23 Maybe just my inner geek, but pretty cool being able to 'view' them up close.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: GraemeA on April 27, 2023, 06:24:15 pm
Maybe Graeme can correct me on that at some point.

I have quit working for the IFSC so won't be commenting on the comps.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Fiend on April 27, 2023, 08:29:03 pm
Well it was nice having a man-in-the-know answering questions while it lasted  :icon_beerchug:

I've actually started watching them again (couldn't bear to last year as I was too injured). When I can meet a friend for her disc+ account, of course.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: edshakey on April 28, 2023, 09:09:14 am
Pretty big news for comps that Veddriq Leonardo has done 4.98 seconds in speed qualification, to become the first person under 5 seconds in official competition. I don't pay much attention to speed normally, but was aware that it was getting extremely close to sub 5, with some Indonesians doing it in practice but no one managing yet at a comp. Also pretty funny that I think he was wearing La Sportiva's speed shoe, fittingly named the 4.99...  ;D  time for a new shoe!
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: danm on April 28, 2023, 12:50:38 pm
New British record for Rafe too! https://www.instagram.com/p/CrkuAY3sFN3/ (https://www.instagram.com/p/CrkuAY3sFN3/)
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Doug on April 28, 2023, 03:58:57 pm
Pretty big news for comps that Veddriq Leonardo has done 4.98 seconds in speed qualification

Then in the quarter-finals he did 4.90 seconds.

In the women's comp Aleksandra Miroslaw set a new world record four times taking it to 6.25 seconds.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: galpinos on April 30, 2023, 08:05:09 am

Anyone understand what’s happening in Seoul? No final for the Women, just a semi that will count as a final?

Erin McNeice appears to have qualified for the semi/final/whatever. First time she’s got this far?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: remus on April 30, 2023, 08:11:37 am

Anyone understand what’s happening in Seoul? No final for the Women, just a semi that will count as a final?

Erin McNeice appears to have qualified for the semi/final/whatever. First time she’s got this far?

On ig someone mentioned that the qualification was rained off, so I guess they effectively lost a day and shifted everything forward a day, and will work out overall results based on semis.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Scouse D on April 30, 2023, 09:05:00 am
Max Milne and Toby Roberts through for men and Erin McNiece through for women. Strong showing from british team. Semis start at 950. No final as Remus said
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Bradders on April 30, 2023, 11:06:16 am
Am I right that this is at least the second time the Korean round has been badly affected by rain? I know it's a spectacular setting but seems odd not to have learned the lesson from last time.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: sherlock on May 20, 2023, 12:59:26 pm
Toby Roberts 3rd in Men's Qualis in SLC
Hamish MacArthur through also but Milne loses out.
Natalia seems to have recovered form.
Janja back for Prague in June, apparently.

Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: remus on May 22, 2023, 06:40:16 am
NSFW  :
Toby Roberts takes the bronze in the men's final :icon_beerchug:
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: edshakey on May 22, 2023, 08:53:15 am
NSFW  :
first Brit to win a lead and boulder medal. Bodes well for Olympic qualification!
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jwi on June 02, 2023, 08:45:01 am
https://www.climbing.com/people/john-long-stonemaster-bouldering-world-cup-junkie/

Great article by John Long.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: remus on June 02, 2023, 08:53:35 am
Paywall free version https://archive.is/ljR19
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Duma on June 02, 2023, 10:40:09 am
anyone know what the red start numbers on the app mean?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Duma on June 02, 2023, 11:47:22 am
Think I've worked out that it's climbers currently on the mats
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jwi on June 04, 2023, 07:40:27 pm
Can someone tell the commentator on Youtube that Flavy Cohout's first name is not pronounced "Flabby"
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Bradders on June 10, 2023, 07:36:00 pm
Four GB men through to semis in Brixen!
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Muenchener on June 10, 2023, 09:53:29 pm
Can someone tell the commentator on Youtube that Flavy Cohout's first name is not pronounced "Flabby"

One might imagine that a Brit long term resident in Chamonix might have picked up some clue as to how to pronounce French names correctly. But evidently one would be mistaken.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jwi on June 11, 2023, 08:37:56 pm
Brilliant fight on the men's last boulder in Brixen!
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: UnkArl on June 11, 2023, 09:47:10 pm
Absolutely incredible! If Toby had done M2 (he was one move away) he would have absolutely dominated.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Wellsy on June 12, 2023, 09:13:54 am
Toby's ascent of M3 in the semis was fucking incredible. Pinch strength in another cosmos from the rest of us.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Danny on June 12, 2023, 12:57:13 pm
First British male to take gold in bouldering in modern times? Amazing. Worth a thread split surely.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: remus on June 12, 2023, 01:33:17 pm
First British male to take gold in bouldering in modern times? Amazing. Worth a thread split surely.

We were chatting about it in work but had to resort to stumbling on an 8a.nu comment to work it out. The three brits before Toby were Malc (2002), Mark Coxall (2005) and Andy Earl (2007).
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jwi on June 12, 2023, 01:52:58 pm
First British male to take gold in bouldering in modern times? Amazing. Worth a thread split surely.

We were chatting about it in work but had to resort to stumbling on an 8a.nu comment to work it out. The three brits before Toby were Malc (2002), Mark Coxall (2005) and Andy Earl (2007).

The only place where I have found free access to complete historical data on previous world cups is on the fr.wikipedia.org. Go to https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coupe_du_monde_d%27escalade and click around. E.g. https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coupe_du_monde_d%27escalade_de_2005#Bloc

I'm sure the data can be found elsewhere, but I cannot be bothered to search again.

I will certainly not visit 8a. nu for any reason.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: remus on June 12, 2023, 02:01:44 pm
I'm sure the data can be found elsewhere, but I cannot be bothered to search again.

https://ifsc.results.info/#/ is pretty good, though put together by vertical life who own 8a.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: SA Chris on June 12, 2023, 02:36:30 pm
First British male to take gold in bouldering in modern times? Amazing. Worth a thread split surely.

We were chatting about it in work but had to resort to stumbling on an 8a.nu comment to work it out. The three brits before Toby were Malc (2002), Mark Coxall (2005) and Andy Earl (2007).

In recent times, has anyone men other than Max podiumed?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: danm on June 12, 2023, 03:47:26 pm
First British male to take gold in bouldering in modern times? Amazing. Worth a thread split surely.

We were chatting about it in work but had to resort to stumbling on an 8a.nu comment to work it out. The three brits before Toby were Malc (2002), Mark Coxall (2005) and Andy Earl (2007).

In recent times, has anyone men other than Max podiumed?
Good question. Toby's third podium with this 1st to go with his previous 3rd places in bouldering and lead. Permission to start frothing for Paris Sir?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Teaboy on June 12, 2023, 05:00:03 pm
Did anyone else enjoy Alanna Yip(?)’s co-coms?  It consisted mainly of nosies and exclamations and added some real fun to it. Toby reminds me a bit Oraine Bertone when she emerged on the scene, often whack beta but just super determined and absolute draw dropping strength.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Reprobate_Rob on June 13, 2023, 09:29:19 am
First British male to take gold in bouldering in modern times? Amazing. Worth a thread split surely.

We were chatting about it in work but had to resort to stumbling on an 8a.nu comment to work it out. The three brits before Toby were Malc (2002), Mark Coxall (2005) and Andy Earl (2007).

Didn't Barrans win one in China back in the day?

[edit] - Just looked it up and it was 3rd in the World Champs 2009
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: T_B on June 13, 2023, 09:48:21 am
First British male to take gold in bouldering in modern times? Amazing. Worth a thread split surely.

We were chatting about it in work but had to resort to stumbling on an 8a.nu comment to work it out. The three brits before Toby were Malc (2002), Mark Coxall (2005) and Andy Earl (2007).

In case you’re keeping records it’s Mark Croxall.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: wasbeen on June 13, 2023, 09:59:05 am
First British male to take gold in bouldering in modern times? Amazing. Worth a thread split surely.

We were chatting about it in work but had to resort to stumbling on an 8a.nu comment to work it out. The three brits before Toby were Malc (2002), Mark Coxall (2005) and Andy Earl (2007).

In case you’re keeping records it’s Mark Croxall.

... who incidentally coached Toby at Craggy Island in his green salad days. Being around there at the time, I think it is fair to say the coaching setup was a long way ahead of its time.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jwi on June 13, 2023, 01:22:56 pm
I thought this video was interesting. Found out two things.

1. A somewhat out-of-shape Megos (out of shape for comp style bouldering) would just barely get into the women't final, and that mostly thanks to his reach.
2. Germany has no national team training centre or anything like this, and must drive to France or Austria to train. (The French complains that they only have two centers, and those not on the A or B team don't have everyday access...)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv-aelI8R2c
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: remus on June 13, 2023, 02:16:12 pm
2. Germany has no national team training centre or anything like this, and must drive to France or Austria to train. (The French complains that they only have two centers, and those not on the A or B team don't have everyday access...)

I was struck by this too. Seems weird given that the german walls I have been to seem pretty amazing from a general punters perspective (large, loads of shiny holds, big bouldering areas, lead walls with hard routes etc.) You'd have thought they could carve out enough space somewhere in there for some comp style boulders and a spray wall.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Muenchener on June 13, 2023, 02:27:28 pm
Yeah, there really doesn't seem to be anything. The Freimann wall in Munich generally has some routes in the 9a-ish range that are used for state & national trials and training, but that's still just a public wall that happens to have some harder routes, nothing like the glory that is Innsbruck.

The Bavarian state youth squad used to train on a grotty little spraywall in an attic at Thalkirchen, coached by Chris Hanke and Monika Retschy. Those were the days.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jwi on June 13, 2023, 02:38:57 pm
I was struck by this too. Seems weird given that the german walls I have been to seem pretty amazing from a general punters perspective (large, loads of shiny holds, big bouldering areas, lead walls with hard routes etc.) You'd have thought they could carve out enough space somewhere in there for some comp style boulders and a spray wall.

An acquaintance of mine (we train together about once a year) has a son who had some good youth results in international comps, and he said that it was difficult for his son to find somewhere to study as there were only really two French cities you could study in if you also wants to compete internationally.

One of the gyms here often hire international route setters to set hard boulders, but apparently that is far from enough for the style of senior comps as big connected coordination moves require at least 5-6 metres of width where there are no other holds to hurt yourself on when trying to execute. This was all according to him, but he has also climbed on international level and has been very involved in the local competition scene for twenty-thirty years and usually knows what he is talking about.

A lot of people can get to V16 on a small woody, but to compete on the world cup you need government supported facilities or family wealth.

In Sweden there is one gym in the middle of nowhere that set some international comp style boulders on empty walls in a back room, but that is payed 100% out of the pocket of the owner of the gym.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Wellsy on June 13, 2023, 04:15:46 pm
Team GB used to train in Unit E at the Works, do they still go there?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: edshakey on June 13, 2023, 05:00:08 pm
Lots of the GB team seem to spend a lot of time at City Bloc in Leeds, but I think Unit E is still the main hub? Not 100% sure though
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: danm on June 13, 2023, 05:00:31 pm
Team GB used to train in Unit E at the Works, do they still go there?
Team GB is the name of the team of all participating sports which goes to the Olympics. GB Climbing have a contract to use Unit E as a dedicated training facility during weekday hours. The situation in Japan is interesting given their obvious success. They have a huge number of bouldering walls, and most of them have comp style holds and setting at a wide range of difficulty levels including the very highest. That gives both progression in the style and plenty of stuff to train on at the top end. I strongly recommend folks watch Toby on the last problem if they haven't already. One of the best bits of comp footage ever shot imho.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: NaoB on June 13, 2023, 10:00:27 pm
Rockover (original Manchester centre) has a large area that was built specifically for GB bouldering and I know they do still use that for team training with purpose-set comp style boulders. Tom is very generous and enthusiastic about helping the team. I'm fairly certain he funded it all himself originally at least.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: SA Chris on June 13, 2023, 10:37:44 pm
I strongly recommend folks watch Toby on the last problem if they haven't already.

Is that the Blue prob with black volumes on his IG? If so, what a fight. From what I've seen, noticed a lot of hard shouldery oppositions and presses in the probs at Brixen, has this started to feature more, or have I just not really been looking hard enough?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Dexter on June 14, 2023, 05:17:26 pm
I was just reading this topic followed by the cordless fan one and it got me wondering. Is there any rule on using fans at IFSC competitions? If not then why doesn't every athlete have a fan with then for in between every attempt?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: SA Chris on June 15, 2023, 08:26:58 am
They have a crowd of fans already :)
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Bradders on June 15, 2023, 02:51:50 pm
Just seen this:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cs_Td9Ora5S/?igshid=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==

Was that the intended beta? Outrageous!
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: SA Chris on June 15, 2023, 02:57:07 pm
Is this series of bouldering comps a bit more intense than usual? having 2 or more on back to back weekend must be knackering if you have gone to finals each time. And intend doing the lead comp.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: sherlock on June 15, 2023, 04:20:15 pm
Is this series of bouldering comps a bit more intense than usual? having 2 or more on back to back weekend must be knackering if you have gone to finals each time. And intend doing the lead comp.
It's hard enough just watching in this heat!
Prague we were stood on burning sand in full ☀️
Just about to leave Innsbruck hotel for Women's Final, a little more shade there...,.
Not really complaining ofc,it's been great!
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: edshakey on June 15, 2023, 04:48:35 pm
Just seen this:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cs_Td9Ora5S/?igshid=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==

Was that the intended beta? Outrageous!

Think so, lots of people did it that way - looks like a crazy move but some of them make it look pretty casual  :strongbench:
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: edshakey on June 15, 2023, 08:43:31 pm
Oh my word, is Janja back!! No wonder she was emotional, that was amazing - no one else flashes entire rounds like she does  ;D
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Bradders on June 16, 2023, 08:19:46 am
Classic Janja flashing problem 3 while no one else can do it  :strongbench:
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: edshakey on June 16, 2023, 01:21:46 pm
If we were amazed by 4 men in semis for GB previously (which I definitely was), then 3 men in semis for Belgium is at least as good! They've always got a few people around, with modest success, but to have 3/3 of their entrants into semis must be pretty huge.

And as I write this, Lorenzi and Collin are provisional top 2. Could become a very good day!
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jwi on June 16, 2023, 03:09:51 pm
Looked like a quite Fontainebleau-style semi! Lots of slopers and bad feet.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Bradders on June 17, 2023, 06:10:22 am
I was just reading this topic followed by the cordless fan one and it got me wondering. Is there any rule on using fans at IFSC competitions? If not then why doesn't every athlete have a fan with then for in between every attempt?

Noticed that during the women's final athlete intro Natalia Grossman came out holding a little handheld fan. Sure I've seen pictures of people waiting for their turn with bigger fans backstage too. Personally I'd be sat in front of mine for as long as possible!
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jwi on July 01, 2023, 02:12:04 pm
Today I learned that it is apparently ok to toe- or heelhook the rope below the last draw clipped to stop the swing. I know quite a few routes where this help.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: crimpinainteasy on July 01, 2023, 02:23:53 pm
Quote from: jwi link=topic=335 :sorry:22.msg679020#msg679020 date=1688217124
Today I learned that it is apparently ok to toe- or heelhook the rope below the last draw clipped to stop the swing. I know quite a few routes where this help.

You're being intentionally dishonest here, getting your leg caught in the rope is the same as pulling on the rope to aid yourself. In the cases of Janja and Jessi it was clearly a disadvantage, the rope pulled Jessi off and almost pulled Janja off.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jwi on July 01, 2023, 03:19:15 pm
For sure I'm going to start to accidentally toe-hook the rope to stop the swing on the lip of Osmose. That and accidentally standing on the bolt on the second crux and I can get to the final crux in a lot better state.

I don't think Brooke would have done the move without cheating, probably not Janja either. But who knows? No one.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: crimpinainteasy on July 01, 2023, 03:37:54 pm
If you stand on the rope while climbing outside it's on you to be honest with yourself about whether or not it assisted you. In the context of comp climbing I don't think it's fair to punish athletes for a situation like just now where A- They weren't trying to cheat and and more importantly B- It's not clear whether it even gave an advantage or not.

Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: duncan on July 01, 2023, 04:55:17 pm
When Ondra was penalised for standing on a bolt in the 2019 World Championships it was not completely clear that he had touched the bolt, almost certainly accidental, and probably didn’t help him.

Today what happened was completely clear, probably accidental, and in a couple of instances looked to have helped at least a bit.

Can anyone tell me how this is less worthy of a penalty?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jwi on July 01, 2023, 10:45:39 pm
I cannot read their minds so I don't know if it was on purpose.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Muenchener on July 02, 2023, 11:35:56 am
I cannot read their minds so I don't know if it was on purpose.

Do you really think competitors as experienced as Janja Garnbret and Jessica Pilz might seriously believe they could gain an advantage by deliberately doing something dubious that the judges are definitely going to see?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: sirlockoff on July 02, 2023, 03:25:10 pm
rather unfortunate fuckup from the route setting team with that rope-madness, that said I do appreciate the decision as a 'viewer', but probably unfair to athletes, rules shouldn't be bent like that
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jwi on July 02, 2023, 04:59:43 pm
Chaehyun Seo clearly got robbed of a podium and I cannot understand how anyone can think otherwise
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Duma on July 02, 2023, 05:14:39 pm
Did the Koreans appeal? Seems pretty clear cut. (I've not seen it, just going on what's said here)
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jwi on July 02, 2023, 05:18:21 pm
Yeah, they appealed. Some judge had a lengthy discussion with Brooke Raboutou
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Bradders on July 02, 2023, 09:02:13 pm
I'm clearly missing something here, presumably this was during the women's finals route in Villars?

Having watched it I can't see even a hint of anything controversial. Around move 25/26 Janja got her leg caught behind the rope but it didn't look to help her at all, if anything it looked like a hindrance! There were a few times for various competitors where it looked like they were being short-roped, and Brooke had to pull through slack at least twice, but again this seems more a hindrance.

What am I missing?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: crimpinainteasy on July 02, 2023, 09:35:25 pm
I'm clearly missing something here, presumably this was during the women's finals route in Villars?

Having watched it I can't see even a hint of anything controversial. Around move 25/26 Janja got her leg caught behind the rope but it didn't look to help her at all, if anything it looked like a hindrance! There were a few times for various competitors where it looked like they were being short-roped, and Brooke had to pull through slack at least twice, but again this seems more a hindrance.

What am I missing?

In semis Brooke, Janja, and Jessi got their leg caught in the rope while moving for hold 35 and some are arguing it potentially gave them an unfair advantage due to the drag from the rope pulling them up the wall.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Wil on July 02, 2023, 10:23:49 pm
In the video here (https://youtu.be/XyBV8c-0Ous) at 43.55, 54.17 and 58.26.

Given how they've treated infringements with fixed objects (bolts/banners) in the past it's interesting that this was deemed not worthy of penalising. It's a pretty significant drag for all 3, and the rules don't make any allowance for whether they gained an advantage.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Bonjoy on July 03, 2023, 08:06:09 am
That would absolutely invalidate a redpoint or an onsight outside. Questions of intentionality, or advantage don't come into it.  Remarkable that it was deemed okay in an international competitions.
Not penalising sets a precedent and leaves judges and competitors open to a world of pain and problems in future when competitors are forced to decide whether or not to take this sort of advantage when it's on offer. Followed by back peddling and acrimony when the IFSC are forced to rethink the position.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: IanP on July 03, 2023, 08:47:30 am
Agree with most people on here - really strange that this was allowed, obviously not acceptable to hook the rope like that irrespective of whether it was intentional or not.

And as I understand it all three would still have made the final on 35+ anyway so that seems to make it even easier to just apply the rules straightforwardly (though obviously that shouldn't come into the decision making).
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Duma on July 03, 2023, 08:58:48 am
That is fucking outrageous, def should all have only got 35+
How on earth can the IFSC get something so obvious so wrong?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Aussiegav on July 03, 2023, 09:10:53 am
It’s a rope dab. Where’s the dab police?? 8)
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Fiend on July 03, 2023, 09:23:40 am
It's a bloody shambles that's what it is. Doesn't look at all deliberate and it doesn't look like it helps that much as the swing would be into the hold not away from it. But basically what sirlockoff said.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: spidermonkey09 on July 03, 2023, 10:02:35 am
That would absolutely invalidate a redpoint or an onsight outside.

Can't comment on whats fair or not in comps (I wouldn't have penalised Ondra for the accidental bolt stand either) but in no way would this invalidate an RP or onsight attempt outside for what its worth. Any entirely accidental benefit derived is more than offset by the hindrance and faff involved disentangling yourself. Crack on I say, shit route setting.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: abarro81 on July 03, 2023, 10:12:01 am
While strict rules make sense logically, for me it would depend critically on the route... on something like the big-swing sequence on Sean's roof something like this would totally invalidate it; but also I've got tangled in the rope on spinny roof climbs before and just carried on. In this context I'd err towards saying "dab" and stopping them at that point - this would feel a little "unfair" on the climbers involved, but route setting issues sometimes are unfair...
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: cheque on July 03, 2023, 10:21:39 am
This is competitive sport though isn’t it? Whether you’ve cheated or not is down only on the referees decision, not whether you actually cheated. The people involved have too much at stake to be nice and while controversies blow over, results are recorded for ever.

Disclaimer: I don’t follow climbing comps at all but I do follow other sports.

That would absolutely invalidate a redpoint or an onsight outside.

That heavily depends on the climber though doesn’t it? What people allow themselves to count as a proper ascent varies massively. In the case of onsight the term is almost meaningless because, as shown in every internet thread about the style, there are almost as many definitions of it as there are climbers.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: wasbeen on July 03, 2023, 11:33:00 am
Pretty cool, that expectations are so high that Toby's 4th place hasn't had a mention till now.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: SA Chris on July 03, 2023, 11:39:51 am
Amazing effort from him, especially considering who beat him.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Bonjoy on July 03, 2023, 01:42:47 pm
That would absolutely invalidate a redpoint or an onsight outside.

Can't comment on whats fair or not in comps (I wouldn't have penalised Ondra for the accidental bolt stand either) but in no way would this invalidate an RP or onsight attempt outside for what its worth. Any entirely accidental benefit derived is more than offset by the hindrance and faff involved disentangling yourself. Crack on I say, shit route setting.
To be clear, by 'that' I mean the curtailed swing shown on the linked vid. I didn't mean that any and all rope dabs, however minor would invalidate an outdoor ascent. Like Alex says, it's context specific, but if the context was an identical move to that shown in the vid, then it would absolutely invalidate the ascent IMO.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jwi on July 03, 2023, 03:34:47 pm
Amazing effort from him, especially considering who beat him.

A bunch of OAPs?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: SA Chris on July 03, 2023, 04:02:01 pm
None of the 3 are any of those things.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: wasbeen on July 03, 2023, 04:47:49 pm
Amazing effort from him, especially considering who beat him.

A bunch of OAPs?

Really!?

This forum is difficult to love sometimes :wall:
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Wellsy on July 03, 2023, 04:50:29 pm
Only like maybe 3 of the best sport climbers ever, you know, basically has beens
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Bradders on July 03, 2023, 04:53:06 pm
Devil's advocate; I can't see what the problem is. As evidenced by the fact that Jessie Pilz was literally pulled off the wall by the rope, it was a hindrance not a help. The rope is pulling them back and away from the wall, not up or in and looks to me to feel the equivalent of being badly short roped.

As to whether it was intentional from any of them; absolute bollocks. They're clearly just trying to do the move, there's not even a hint of an intentional leg move, or a glance at the rope positioning to ensure it was caught. Others who did the move without getting caught either got lucky (e.g. Mia Krampl) or had the rope in front of their leg. Mia made it look like a fairly easy move so I can't imagine Brooke Raboutou wouldn't have done it without the rope being caught; if anything again it looked more hindrance than help to me.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: danm on July 03, 2023, 04:58:22 pm
I can also see why technically this would be much harder to judge than stepping on a bolt. A bolt does not move, so the climber should know where one is, and avoid using it accordingly. The rope position is changing as the climber moves, so avoiding touching it will be much more difficult, and if touching it is not within the climbers absolute control, then it feels as though ascertaining intent or not and deriving benefit or not will be really hard to determine and could be very subjective. Sport rule makers do not usually like subjectivity!

Edit: Toby must now be a genuine podium contender for Paris 2024 and we should all be getting very, very excited about that!
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Duma on July 03, 2023, 05:39:16 pm
Amazing effort from him, especially considering who beat him.

A bunch of OAPs?

Really!?

This forum is difficult to love sometimes :wall:

It's (obviously) a joke, and basically the same one made by megos ondra and Schubert on their SM. Relax people.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Bonjoy on July 03, 2023, 06:19:25 pm
Devil's advocate; I can't see what the problem is. As evidenced by the fact that Jessie Pilz was literally pulled off the wall by the rope, it was a hindrance not a help. The rope is pulling them back and away from the wall, not up or in and looks to me to feel the equivalent of being badly short roped.

As to whether it was intentional from any of them; absolute bollocks. They're clearly just trying to do the move, there's not even a hint of an intentional leg move, or a glance at the rope positioning to ensure it was caught. Others who did the move without getting caught either got lucky (e.g. Mia Krampl) or had the rope in front of their leg. Mia made it look like a fairly easy move so I can't imagine Brooke Raboutou wouldn't have done it without the rope being caught; if anything again it looked more hindrance than help to me.
This isn't any more relevant than hand wring over whether a massive dab invalidates a cutloose problem. It just does. Agonising about whether it helps or was on purpose just muddies the water. Back around, end of.
As a parent of a comp youth climber, I can't stand vague rules which require complex judgement to apply. Have simple rules and apply them consistently, even if that penalises accidents. That's fair on everyone.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Bradders on July 03, 2023, 06:24:22 pm
Okay, what is your simple rule which would have applied here?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: remus on July 03, 2023, 06:47:02 pm
As happened with the Ondra bolt incident having strictly enforced rules can mean better solutions emerge, as they did with the no-tex holds that are now used to cover the bolts. Maybe these incidents will mean setters get better at avoiding this kind of situation altogether by making sure draws are placed so that the rope is out of the way.

Not sure what the rules should be, but these particular incidents seems pretty clearly on the wrong side of the line to me.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jwi on July 03, 2023, 06:56:36 pm
Amazing effort from him, especially considering who beat him.

A bunch of OAPs?

Really!?

This forum is difficult to love sometimes :wall:

It's (obviously) a joke, and basically the same one made by megos ondra and Schubert on their SM. Relax people.

I forgot the smiley, my bad.

But it’s seriously interesting that the old guard still dominates. Ondra has a theory why that is so that no one likes…

Toby Roberts looked incredibly strong, just a few tiny mistakes from a podium or better.

Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: lukeyboy on July 03, 2023, 07:21:43 pm
Ondra has a theory why that is so that no one likes…

Which is...?
 :worms:
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jwi on July 03, 2023, 07:33:32 pm
The routes haven’t gotten harder over the last ten years and kids these days don’t train enough endurance.

https://youtu.be/lbJta3GRYqI
At 10:32 mark
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: SA Chris on July 03, 2023, 07:47:34 pm
Okay, what is your simple rule which would have applied here?

Don't set routes where the rope can get in the way.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Wellsy on July 03, 2023, 07:51:00 pm
The routes haven’t gotten harder over the last ten years and kids these days don’t train enough endurance.

https://youtu.be/lbJta3GRYqI
At 10:32 mark

Watching this vid reminds me of how much I love Ondra
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: crimpinainteasy on July 03, 2023, 08:40:20 pm
The routes haven’t gotten harder over the last ten years and kids these days don’t train enough endurance.

https://youtu.be/lbJta3GRYqI
At 10:32 mark

I guess the issue may be that we're already at 99% of what's humanly possible to be onsighted. Seems like onsight and flash grades have barely moved in comparison to the shift in difficulty of redpoint grades over the last ten tears
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: abarro81 on July 03, 2023, 09:17:15 pm
I guess the issue may be that we're already at 99% of what's humanly possible to be onsighted. Seems like onsight and flash grades have barely moved in comparison to the shift in difficulty of redpoint grades over the last ten tears
I agree that this has happened, but it's not obvious to me why onsight shouldn't move up as redpoint does. I just assumed it's a fashion thing (onsight and even flash not being that fashionable nowadays, even if they're the best styles)
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Bonjoy on July 03, 2023, 11:25:54 pm
Okay, what is your simple rule which would have applied here?
Weighting the rope with feet on a cutloose means that is the end of your attempt. It requires judgement, but not complex judgement.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: crimpinainteasy on July 03, 2023, 11:56:39 pm

even if they're the best styles


I would agree with this. Few things more satisyfing than a hard (for me) onsight/flash. Redpointing is cool but it doesn't give me quite the same thrill as trying to do things first try.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jwi on July 04, 2023, 07:04:04 am
It might be the other way around a bit. The old generation of Usobiaga, Puigblanqué, Becan, Midtbø etc were much better at onsighting than at redpointing. They all onsigted 8c+ which is harder than redpointing 9b by today's standard. But none of them ever did 9b I think?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: remus on July 04, 2023, 07:10:39 am
They all onsigted 8c+ which is harder than redpointing 9b by today's standard. But none of them ever did 9b I think?

Midtbø climbed Ali Hulk (extension sit start) which gets 9b, he also did it without knees which probably makes it feel a lot more 9b than it does these days. Your point still stands though.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jwi on July 04, 2023, 07:39:44 am
True, I keep forgetting. Puigblanqué might have done 9b as well but graded it 9a for all we know
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: James Malloch on July 04, 2023, 09:56:45 am
The routes haven’t gotten harder over the last ten years and kids these days don’t train enough endurance.

https://youtu.be/lbJta3GRYqI
At 10:32 mark

That sauna session is brutal!
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: abarro81 on July 04, 2023, 10:21:32 am
It might be the other way around a bit. The old generation of Usobiaga, Puigblanqué, Becan, Midtbø etc were much better at onsighting than at redpointing.

Strangely, I never thought of it this way around (always just that modern climbers are often disproportionately bad at onsight rather than the old generation were disproportionately good). What to we think the gap "should" be, for someone good at both onsight and flash and RP? I always assume 2-3 for flash and 3-4 for onsight, but I wonder if it's true?

Thinking about people near the top end who are good at both and have put a reasonable amount of effort into both:
Ondra: 3 for flash, 4 for onsight (9a+, 9a, 9c)
Megos: 3 for flash and onsight (9a, 9b+)
Jacob: 3 for flash, 4 for onsight (9a, 8c+, 9b+)
But are they actually disproportionately good at one or the other?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Wellsy on July 04, 2023, 10:38:09 am
Does anyone know Seb Bouin's best onsight?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Muenchener on July 04, 2023, 10:52:34 am
Okay, what is your simple rule which would have applied here?

The simple rule that would have applied here is in The Rules

Quote
Illegal Aid means Controlling or Using any of the following ... with any part of the body ... any Protection Point or the climbing rope

Although if I were appealed-against team's lawyer I would definitely try arguing that "Controlling or Using" implies intention. And, as jwi already pointed out, we can't actually know for certain it it was intentional or not - I personally think it's extremely unlikely that it was.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: abarro81 on July 04, 2023, 10:53:57 am
He doesn't do much onsighting AFAIK, hence I excluded him from the list... (I guess 8c?)
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Aussiegav on July 04, 2023, 11:02:53 am
[ What to we think the gap "should" be, for someone good at both onsight and flash and RP? I always assume 2-3 for flash and 3-4 for onsight, but I wonder if it's true?

Thinking about people near the top end who are good at both and have put a reasonable amount of effort into both:
Ondra: 3 for flash, 4 for onsight (9a+, 9a, 9c)
Megos: 3 for flash and onsight (9a, 9b+)
Jacob: 3 for flash, 4 for onsight (9a, 8c+, 9b+)
But are they actually disproportionately good at one or the other?

I think the volume of onsighting at specified grades is the best benchmark rather the gap.

I'd propose a list (Remus??? :smartass:), who are the climbers that have onsighted at least 15 (or 20??) routes at 8c+ or 8c if there's none. Having criteria of 15 routes, should cover variety of styles / rock, thus better rounded climber.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: abarro81 on July 04, 2023, 11:21:02 am
I'd propose a list (Remus??? :smartass:), who are the climbers that have onsighted at least 15 (or 20??) routes at 8c+ or 8c if there's none. Having criteria of 15 routes, should cover variety of styles / rock, thus better rounded climber.

Ondra is the only one who's done any real volume at 8c+ AFAIK. Even at 8c I think the list would be very small - Ondra, Megos?, Patxi? Becan? I suspect that might be it... Actually it kind of wouldn't surprise me if Ondra was still the only one with >15 onsights at 8c??
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jwi on July 04, 2023, 12:09:58 pm
He doesn't do much onsighting AFAIK, hence I excluded him from the list... (I guess 8c?)

I think Seb did an 8c onsight when he was 18. He very rarely tries I think, but I've seen him warm up by onsighting an 8a and an 8b when he was a lot worse at climbing than he is now.

Same with Stefano Ghisolfi strangely enough.

I have the impression that Jacob Shubert has onsighted/flashed a ton of 8cs and quite a few 8c+s? Ramon has onsighted at least seven routes 8c or harder.

Fifteen routes is a harsh cut-off. Requires lots of days out on rock, or many years. (I have done about a gazillion 7c onsight, but I am far from solid on 7c in any style, I just have not really improved in a long time, so always tries similar style routes at the same-ish grade.)
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: remus on July 04, 2023, 12:12:46 pm
Wouldn't be an easy one to put together unfortunately, I haven't done much work recording onsights below 8c+ (if anyone is psyched just let me know, would be cool to have more info here).

I'd guess Barrows is on the right lines though, I'd be surprised if there were many people who had onsighted any significant volume at 8c. Lest we forget, Ondra is in a class of his own when it comes to lots of hard onsights.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Aussiegav on July 04, 2023, 03:15:59 pm
All roads lead to Ondra.

Pun intended
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: IanP on July 04, 2023, 05:21:17 pm
Wouldn't be an easy one to put together unfortunately, I haven't done much work recording onsights below 8c+ (if anyone is psyched just let me know, would be cool to have more info here).

I'd guess Barrows is on the right lines though, I'd be surprised if there were many people who had onsighted any significant volume at 8c. Lest we forget, Ondra is in a class of his own when it comes to lots of hard onsights.

I had a look at this a bit ago and struggled to find more than single figure  8c and above onsights for anyone other than Ondra.  Obviously for Ondra we have his 8a.nu log (sorry jwi) - currently 93 > 8c os which whatever number you get for other people is in a completely different class.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Bradders on July 04, 2023, 08:50:57 pm
Okay, what is your simple rule which would have applied here?

The simple rule that would have applied here is in The Rules

Quote
Illegal Aid means Controlling or Using any of the following ... with any part of the body ... any Protection Point or the climbing rope

Although if I were appealed-against team's lawyer I would definitely try arguing that "Controlling or Using" implies intention. And, as jwi already pointed out, we can't actually know for certain it it was intentional or not - I personally think it's extremely unlikely that it was.

You made exactly the same challenge I would have, and presumably this is what the judges therefore decided? In which case I still can't see the problem.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Bonjoy on July 04, 2023, 10:14:43 pm
That makes no sense. It's standard to disqualify for 'using a protection point' by standing on a bolt, regardless of intentionality, e.g. Jim Pope a while back. How is this in different? If anything it has more potential to make the climb easier.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Muenchener on July 05, 2023, 04:12:10 am
My personal opinion as a climber is that rope dab clearly = game over, Brooke and Janja should have been called down immediately and I'm baffled as to why they weren't. I was simply pointing out that the way the rules are worded appears to me to leave room for weaseling.

Are judges afraid to call out the great Janja Garnbret? They certainly haven't been afraid to call the likes of Adam Ondra or Anna Stöhr out for infractions in the past.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Muenchener on July 05, 2023, 02:06:27 pm
Meanwhile, in much bigger news than a couple of rope dabs, Volker Schöffl has resigned from the IFSC medical commission (https://www.instagram.com/p/CuUH0oIt1Ve/) as a protest against inaction on the problem of RED-S in athletes.

For those not familiar with the name, Dr Schöffl is the most prominent climbing sports medicine specialist in Germany. His book So Weit die Hände Greifen (http://=https://www.google.com/books/edition/So_weit_die_Hände_greifen/uF41oAEACAAJ?hl=enSo Weit die Hände Greifen) is the leading German language injury prevention & rehab text aimed at climbers. Not sure if that one has been translated into English, but his medical textbook Climbing Medicine: A Practical Guide (https://www.google.com/books/edition/Climbing_Medicine/N31xEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=volker+schöffl&printsec=frontcover) definitely has.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: danm on July 05, 2023, 02:22:28 pm
That's pretty big news, Volker's work gets referenced almost any time there is a discussion of climbing injury.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Duma on July 06, 2023, 08:48:51 am
Pretty strongly worded!

Quote
As a consequence of the non-action of the IFSC I resign with immediate effect from my voluntary position in the IFSC Medical Commission.
Hereby I am drawing the same consequence as our MedCom president. We share the opinion that as medical doctors we can no longer accept the non-action of the IFSC concerning the RED-S problems of our athletes.

I have been a #MedCom member since the inauguration of the IFSC in 2009. During that time frame we achieved many goals for the well-being of our athletes. However, the current politics with regards to RED-S cannot be accepted. We have worked for more than 10 years on the topic. We have collected numerous data, have measured BMI/MI at every WorldCup last year and have developed very profound plans how to detect and help athletes with such problems. We have spent many hours in meetings and on the desk establishing a new and better system of monitoring and decision making. As a consequence, we now have the most profound data on this matter of all sport disciplines. We have pointed out the problem and possible solutions to the sports director and board continuously and repeatedly. However, the only acknowledgement we have received has consisted of defamation and discouragement. In short, the IFSC may not be willing at all to undertake further action regarding this important health issue of its athletes and is acitvely delaying and slowing down any decisions that could lead to much needed action.

As medical doctors we cannot accept this any longer.

Sport climbing has a RED-S problem.
Possible solutions to detect, evaluate and help critical athletes were developed through the Medical Commission.
These solutions have been and are being ignored. No further action is taken by the IFSC.

For the wellbeeing of our athletes and the development of this sport, I cannot take any responsibility on this matter and am forced to resign.

Many thanks to my long-time colleagues and friends in the Medical Commission for their work and efforts, especially to our president Dr.Eugen Burtscher.

I hope this step may help the cause and our athletes but I know it won‘t.

Volker Schöffl – climbing doctor
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: SA Chris on July 06, 2023, 08:55:15 am
Brutal. Hats of to the guy for showing some guts.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: crimpinainteasy on July 09, 2023, 11:36:16 am
Another comp another final for Toby!
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: galpinos on July 09, 2023, 11:58:32 am
How are people checking results? The IFSC app has “gone weird” for me. It shows “registration” lists but no results?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: edshakey on July 09, 2023, 12:20:18 pm
https://ifsc.results.info/

Yep looks like the app has been broken somewhat. Hopefully a change that can be rolled back, it was very useful while it worked
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: sherlock on July 09, 2023, 01:24:25 pm
Working fine for me, Android phone.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Wellsy on July 09, 2023, 01:41:55 pm
Proper psyched for Toby to smash it today!
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Adam Lincoln on July 09, 2023, 02:31:40 pm
What time does mens final start, says 8.30 but thats UTC+2 whatever that means
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: edshakey on July 09, 2023, 02:59:45 pm
What time does mens final start, says 8.30 but thats UTC+2 whatever that means

Scheduled for 7:30 on discovery+
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: ali k on July 09, 2023, 05:31:43 pm
Scheduled for 7:30 on discovery+
Is that the only place you can watch it live?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Duma on July 09, 2023, 05:34:36 pm
On youtube I think if you've got a VPN
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: crimpinainteasy on July 09, 2023, 06:46:11 pm
Scheduled for 7:30 on discovery+
Is that the only place you can watch it live?

Try.this free VPN service if you don't have one to watch on YouTube https://protonvpn.com/free-vpn
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Adam Lincoln on July 09, 2023, 07:36:39 pm
What time does mens final start, says 8.30 but thats UTC+2 whatever that means

Scheduled for 7:30 on discovery+

Not on any of the discovery + channels i have. Any idea which one?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Adam Lincoln on July 09, 2023, 07:39:30 pm
Found it on eurosport 2
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: ali k on July 09, 2023, 08:15:41 pm
Try.this free VPN service if you don't have one to watch on YouTube https://protonvpn.com/free-vpn
Got that but still can’t find where to watch it on YouTube!
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: crimpinainteasy on July 09, 2023, 08:32:55 pm
 
Got that but still can’t find where to watch it on YouTube!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNgbe8vi2OI
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Adam Lincoln on July 09, 2023, 08:54:10 pm
Id pay not to have to listen to Matt Groom! I am petty certain that quickdraw didnt clip itself like he said. Looked like she just clipped it out of order.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Bradders on July 09, 2023, 09:15:18 pm
Careful what you wish for, he's much, much better than the idiot they had doing the Olympics commentary.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: joel182 on July 09, 2023, 09:17:37 pm
Id pay not to have to listen to Matt Groom! I am petty certain that quickdraw didnt clip itself like he said. Looked like she just clipped it out of order.

Yeah, she clipped out of order, then realised and corrected it by unclipping the high draw then the lower draw and then reclipping the high draw. What a shame.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Adam Lincoln on July 09, 2023, 09:31:35 pm
Careful what you wish for, he's much, much better than the idiot they had doing the Olympics commentary.

Get Mike langley in
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Wellsy on July 09, 2023, 09:54:35 pm
Oh fuck yes
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Adam Lincoln on July 09, 2023, 09:55:32 pm
Pissed it! Wow
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: crimpinainteasy on July 09, 2023, 09:55:43 pm
Great finals!
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: edshakey on July 09, 2023, 10:00:31 pm
:jaw:

Fully thought he was off around move 44, but still had the energy to showboat before the top.

What a fucking hero
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Adam Lincoln on July 09, 2023, 10:12:32 pm
How many people have won gold in lead and boulder in same season.

Janja
Ondra

?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Muenchener on July 09, 2023, 10:13:13 pm
Possibly the youngest ever world cup lead podium? Exactly a week after possibly the oldest ever world cup lead podium.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: crimpinainteasy on July 09, 2023, 10:14:39 pm
How many people have won gold in lead and boulder in same season.

Janja
Ondra

?

Colin Duffy Won gold in lead and boulder at Innsbruck last year.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: crimpinainteasy on July 09, 2023, 10:16:11 pm
Sean Bailey also won gold in lead and boulder in 2021
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: edshakey on July 09, 2023, 10:41:25 pm
Jain Kim, in both 2007 + 2011.

A not-massively-thorough manual trawl yielded that, plus the others mentioned. There may be a couple more, but it's a fairly elite group regardless!
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jwi on July 10, 2023, 07:38:35 am
Liv Sansoz in 2000, Sandrine Levet in 2001.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Bradders on July 10, 2023, 08:33:10 am
Jain Kim, in both 2007 + 2011.

A not-massively-thorough manual trawl yielded that, plus the others mentioned. There may be a couple more, but it's a fairly elite group regardless!

On Jain Kim, her win deserves a mention. Pretty incredible longevity, she's 34 years old and had a baby in 2021.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jwi on July 10, 2023, 08:50:34 am
Liv Sansoz in 2000, Sandrine Levet in 2001 and 2003 as well. David Lama in 2006 and 2008. Tomás Mrázek in 2007. Adam Ondra in 2010 and 2019. Kim Jain in 2011 as mentioned. Jacob Schubert in 2012 and 2013. Mina Markovic in 2012. Janja Ganbret in 2017 (multiple gold in both disciplines), 2018 (likewise), 2019 (only one in lead),  2021 (multiple), 2022 and 2023. Sean Bailey in 2021. Colin Duffey in 2022. Toby Roberts 2023.

Suffice to say that it is a fairly short list of climbers.

Unless there is an error here: https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coupe_du_monde_d%27escalade_de_2007
Kim Jain did not take gold in lead or boulder in 2007
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: edshakey on July 10, 2023, 09:10:19 am
Unless there is an error here: https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coupe_du_monde_d%27escalade_de_2007
Kim Jain did not take gold in lead or boulder in 2007

Nope, good spot, I misread her Asian Champs double as world cup wins, when scrolling the ifsc results site  :slap:
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: mde on July 10, 2023, 10:07:31 am
What do you think about the scoring for the women? Nonoha Kume and Hélène Janicot both tried a dynamic paddle sequence from hold 37 (to 38 and 39, they controlled neither of the holds but touched both). They fell and were initially given 37+ which is what seems logical to me. Later the score was upped to 38+, which apparently is what it should be according to the most recent IFSC rules, as they had "used" hold 38 to gain 39 (which I don't think is correct, it was an unsuccessful throw to the two holds).

Jessy Pilz went for a static solution there (which is also what Jain Kim did who successfully climbed that section). It's debatable whether she had hold 38 under control (tough call). 38 was first given, then later corrected to 37+. If the other two athletes had scored 37+ (as they should in my opinion), this would have meant 2nd place for Jessy (due to countback). But no, it's a fourth... absolutely bonkers imo.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: abarro81 on July 10, 2023, 10:40:55 am
What do you think about the scoring for the women? ... absolutely bonkers imo.

I fully agree. Things like that make comp climbing much more farcical than it needs to be
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: abarro81 on July 10, 2023, 12:27:10 pm
For some more farce, if this from a comment on 8a is right then Chaehyun shouldn't have been called off at all
The relevant rule for this case is found under 7.17, and states: 2) where the route is attempted without the rope secured through an anchor at the top of the route, must clip the Protection Points in sequence, provided that: a) the competitor may un-clip and re-clip the last clipped Protection Point at any time; and b) the competitor must correct any “Z-Clip” and to do so may un-clip and re-clip any of the Protection Points involved, provided that after correction all Protection Points must be clipped. What she did wrong here was clip one draw out of order, however 2a) clearly states that: "the competitor may un-clip and re-clip the last clipped Protection Point at any time". As she did exactly that (unclipped the high one and reclipped both in sequence) she should have been well within the rules and allowed to continue.
So the whole women's final is a bit of a farce...
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jwi on July 10, 2023, 12:30:34 pm
The second comp in a row Chaehyun has been wronged by the judges
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Muenchener on July 10, 2023, 12:42:46 pm
For some more farce, if this from a comment on 8a is right then Chaehyun shouldn't have been called off at all

That comment isn't right though, neither of those rules refers to skipping clips. As soon as you start tolerating skipping clips in a high pressure, high stakes competitive situation on fifteen metre walls, you'll start seeing broken legs or worse.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: abarro81 on July 10, 2023, 12:49:30 pm
I can't see where the comment is wrong. Can you explain?

https://cdn.ifsc-climbing.org/images/Website/2023_IFSC_Rules_112.pdf

7.17 A 2 does clearly refer to clips. the relevant wording would be

During their attempt [...] competitors [...] must clip the Protection Points in sequence, provided that [...] the competitor may un-clip and re-clip the last clipped Protection Point at any time

She did not skip, in that at the point she was called off she had clipped all the draws, in sequence, she just had to unclip the top one to reclip the bottom one in order for it to be in sequence (which the wording above appears to explicitly allow). (Do not believe the commentary if that's what you're meaning - it was clear on the footage that she clipped the sling, then unclipped, clipped the draw below, then reclipped the sling. Nothing was skipped.)
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: galpinos on July 10, 2023, 01:28:18 pm

Quote
During their attempt [...] competitors [...] must clip the Protection Points in sequence, provided that [...] the competitor may un-clip and re-clip the last clipped Protection Point at any time

Isn't the pertinent point here that she did not clip them in sequence? Any clause after that is negated is the premise of the initial statement is not met?

(It is poorly worded and open to interpretation imho. I can see how it could be read as you did so who knows!)
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Muenchener on July 10, 2023, 01:29:59 pm
During their attempt [...] competitors [...] must clip the Protection Points in sequence

... which she did not do. At the point at which she clipped the orange sling, she had skipped.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: sirlockoff on July 10, 2023, 01:32:48 pm
from the pdf:

Legitimate Position means, for the purposes of Lead competitions, that a competitor in the
course of their attempt on a route:
a) has not used any Illegal Aid;
b) has clipped each preceding Protection Point in sequence; and

and it also says:

shall order that a competitor’s attempt be terminated if:

B) may order that a competitor’s attempt be terminated if:
1) the competitor is no longer in a Legitimate Position; or


so based on that, as soon as the clips were out of sequence, she was in non legitimate position, and her attempt was done.



great work by Toby, smashed it, both lead and bouldering, the hero we needed   :greed:
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: SA Chris on July 10, 2023, 01:36:50 pm

Quote
During their attempt [...] competitors [...] must clip the Protection Points in sequence, provided that [...] the competitor may un-clip and re-clip the last clipped Protection Point at any time

Isn't the pertinent point here that she did not clip them in sequence? Any clause after that is negated is the premise of the initial statement is not met?


No, the "provided that" is still part of the rule, you have to read it in its entirety, surely.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: abarro81 on July 10, 2023, 01:50:59 pm
Quote
During their attempt [...] competitors [...] must clip the Protection Points in sequence, provided that [...] the competitor may un-clip and re-clip the last clipped Protection Point at any time
Isn't the pertinent point here that she did not clip them in sequence? Any clause after that is negated is the premise of the initial statement is not met?
No, the "provided that" is still part of the rule, you have to read it in its entirety, surely.
I am with Chris here - I don't think you can ignore the second part. The use of "provided that" if very weird though, maybe lawyers like it?

Bear in mind that once she unclipped the top clip (which is totally legit) and then reclipped (bottom first, then top) she had clipped them all in sequence. I can't see why you would have "the competitor may un-clip and re-clip the last clipped Protection Point at any time" in that rule for any reason other than to ensure that doing what she did was within the rules. How else would it be relevant? If it has other relevance maybe that would change how I read it, but unless someone can think of that I don't find any other reading convincing...

Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: robertostallioni on July 10, 2023, 01:55:26 pm
fixing a back-clip?
although I'm not sure they really give much of a shit about back-clips.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: abarro81 on July 10, 2023, 02:14:12 pm
fixing a back-clip?
although I'm not sure they really give much of a shit about back-clips.
What's this is in reference to?

from the pdf:
Legitimate Position means, for the purposes of Lead competitions, that a competitor in the
course of their attempt on a route:
a) has not used any Illegal Aid;
b) has clipped each preceding Protection Point in sequence; and
Ah, maybe that does it... weird to have that bit about being able to unclip the preceding draw in then though, to my mind at least. Shitty rule in that case, with no justification that I can think of. I can't imagine any climber thinking that she should have been stopped. Stuff like this just makes comp climbing so much more lame than it needs to be.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: SA Chris on July 10, 2023, 02:17:47 pm
So it's "a farce" and "more lame than it needs to be" both in one day. Tough times.

Stoked for Toby though.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: robertostallioni on July 10, 2023, 02:18:51 pm
Ah sorry. It was the only reason I could think of for unclipping and re-clipping.



 I can't see why you would have "the competitor may un-clip and re-clip the last clipped Protection Point at any time" in that rule for any reason other than to ensure that doing what she did was within the rules. .....
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: sirlockoff on July 10, 2023, 02:31:27 pm
re-clipping is pretty useful when you are in a situation where you have clipped in such way that the rope runs behind your leg (resulting you hitting your head to the wall if you fall), and you wan't to fix that.

in most cases you can just move your leg, but if there is a move, where all the tension is in the legs (for example heelhook), and the next move is quite dynamic, it is far easier to re-clip than try to somehow move your legs,

also Z-clipping and fixing that is valid by re-clipping, I saw Sean do it in IFSC comp.

Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: cowboyhat on July 10, 2023, 03:24:28 pm
Who was the last Brit to win a lead world Cup?

Having not really followed it Vickers is the first name that jumps to mind but he may not have. I can picture another bloke but can't remember is name, a bit later. Possibly naughties.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: crimpinainteasy on July 10, 2023, 04:15:51 pm
Careful what you wish for, he's much, much better than the idiot they had doing the Olympics commentary.

Get Mike langley in

If Mike Langley is the guy who commentated on the BBCs then god no.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: thunderbeest on July 10, 2023, 05:01:54 pm
fixing a back-clip?
although I'm not sure they really give much of a shit about back-clips.
What's this is in reference to?

from the pdf:
Legitimate Position means, for the purposes of Lead competitions, that a competitor in the
course of their attempt on a route:
a) has not used any Illegal Aid;
b) has clipped each preceding Protection Point in sequence; and
Ah, maybe that does it... weird to have that bit about being able to unclip the preceding draw in then though, to my mind at least. Shitty rule in that case, with no justification that I can think of. I can't imagine any climber thinking that she should have been stopped. Stuff like this just makes comp climbing so much more lame than it needs to be.

Someone mentioned the Z clips,which I suppose is the only reason?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Wil on July 10, 2023, 07:18:03 pm
Re: "provided that"

My reading is that this is a badly written rule. The obvious objective is that climbers have to clip in sequence, to avoid a potential groundfall, and IMO totally fair for an instant disqualification if that's not the case. I think the provided that is intended to convey "provided that that they have clipped in sequence..." Really should be clearer though, was the original rule written in French and lost in translation?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jwi on July 10, 2023, 08:15:52 pm
Who was the last Brit to win a lead world Cup?

Having not really followed it Vickers is the first name that jumps to mind but he may not have. I can picture another bloke but can't remember is name, a bit later. Possibly naughties.

Ian Vickers never won a World Cup. Simon Nadin 1990 is the last.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: edshakey on July 15, 2023, 10:55:13 am
7/8 male finalists in Briancon are Japanese  :o surely that's some sort of record?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: joel182 on July 15, 2023, 12:40:51 pm
7/8 male finalists in Briancon are Japanese  :o surely that's some sort of record?

And 9 in the top 12! EpicTV put out a video with Tomoa (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--XI5g92jyk) that showed off some of the Japanese Climbing Team's training facilities and their climbers seem to be supported in a way that's so far ahead of what's imaginable in the UK.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Duma on July 15, 2023, 01:08:59 pm
Molly in finals after lots of 9ths this year!
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jwi on July 15, 2023, 03:07:41 pm
7/8 male finalists in Briancon are Japanese  :o surely that's some sort of record?

And Hannes Puman spent most of this winter training in Japan!
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: thunderbeest on July 15, 2023, 06:49:57 pm
The height of the male competitors varies from 162 to 177.
That's all of them under average for Europe and most of them even quite a bit for Japan. Do you think the pool of climbers is mostly under average or is this due to route setting?

Have the top climbers grown shorter over the years?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jwi on July 15, 2023, 06:56:28 pm
They have always been short. Like gymnasts. When strength to weigh ratio is important, male athletes are short and female are prepubescent. (There are other factors in climbing, of course).
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: crimpinainteasy on July 15, 2023, 10:30:23 pm
They have always been short. Like gymnasts. When strength to weigh ratio is important, male athletes are short and female are prepubescent. (There are other factors in climbing, of course).

Although I don't have any hard data to support it it definitely feels like the average height of male podiums in both boulder and lead is decreasing over time. It's pretty rare to see a person over 5'10 in boulder or lead finals these days compared to 5 years ago. Perhaps the more dynamic and powerful new school style suits smaller climbers better.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jwi on July 16, 2023, 10:13:04 am
Unless someone spend a lot of time gathering data I think it would be very difficult to assert. I assume that data on length is not saved on any database in europe as that is likely to conflict with GDPR.

I have this old chart I made on the height of elite (RP ≥ 9a+) rock climbers some four years ago:

(https://i.imgur.com/7y1hNlG.png)

Removing the three women from the data, the average height of these climbers is lower than population height (≈ spanish + french average male height ≈(176 + 178)/2 = 177 cm).

For lead competition, I can just think of some simple examples. François Legrand was tall for a comp climber at 178 cm, and he won a ton of years, then came the Petits who are short and Chabot who's even shorter. Patxi Usobiaga is 174 cm and then Ramón Julián Puigblanque is less than 160 cm. Sachi Amma is fairly short. I think Adam Ondra is the only climber taller than 180 cm who's won the world cup?

Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: sirlockoff on July 16, 2023, 11:48:05 pm
I can't think of anyone else taller than 180cm+ who has won world cup  in lead, interesting indeed! On the bouldering side things are not as sad (Hojer was successful competition climber with loads of golds, Narasaki brother got just silver, jerney kruder gold),

All of the athlete history is recorded here:

https://www.ifsc-climbing.org/index.php/athletes

along with their qualifications & placements & their height
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: edshakey on July 17, 2023, 09:10:05 am
Kinda depends on your "taller than" vs "taller than or equal to" statement, but Jesse Grupper was the first person that came to mind, and turns out he's 180cm. Not thought of others yet though 
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Fiend on July 17, 2023, 09:20:11 am
Quick question for the now absent GraemeA:

Bolt covers - these are placed to avoid any contentious issues with climbers brushing bolts with their feet or even standing on them. Is it allowed to accidentally brush the bolt covers?? Or what about deliberately?? If so, would it be allowed to scum a toe underneath the bolt cover where presumably there is more grip due to the bolt itself?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: remus on July 17, 2023, 10:24:02 am
Quick question for the now absent GraemeA:

Bolt covers - these are placed to avoid any contentious issues with climbers brushing bolts with their feet or even standing on them. Is it allowed to accidentally brush the bolt covers?? Or what about deliberately?? If so, would it be allowed to scum a toe underneath the bolt cover where presumably there is more grip due to the bolt itself?

I think the point in the bolt covers is that, per the rules, they count as holds, so you could try and stand on one if you wanted to (but they're very slippery and should offer minimal advantage). If you scummed underneath on the bolt/draw itself then you'd be disqualified.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Fiend on July 17, 2023, 10:30:09 am
Cheers RemusA. I guess that would be pretty easy to judge too.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jwi on July 17, 2023, 12:33:50 pm

All of the athlete history is recorded here:

https://www.ifsc-climbing.org/index.php/athletes

along with their qualifications & placements & their height

There is almost no historic data on heights. Even for world-cup winners like the Petit brothers the heights are missing. Even for Legrand, the greatest male competition climber of all time, the personal info is missing.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jwi on July 17, 2023, 12:37:08 pm
Kinda depends on your "taller than" vs "taller than or equal to" statement, but Jesse Grupper was the first person that came to mind, and turns out he's 180cm. Not thought of others yet though

Jesse Gruper has won a single world cup competition, but not the world cup. But when I say taller that I mean > 180 cm. Jorg Verhoeven is the tallest winner of the entire world cup season, except Ondra, and he is exactly 180 cm tall.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: edshakey on July 17, 2023, 04:50:42 pm
Jesse Gruper has won a single world cup competition, but not the world cup. But when I say taller that I mean > 180 cm. Jorg Verhoeven is the tallest winner of the entire world cup season, except Ondra, and he is exactly 180 cm tall.
Correct, I was more just replying to comments above about "podiums" and "winners". But to your message about the top climbers in comp history, I'd agree that Jesse wouldn't be anywhere near that yet.

Adam is a really outlier it seems!
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: sirlockoff on July 17, 2023, 07:30:19 pm
normalize his neck and he'd probably be less than 180
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: moose on July 17, 2023, 08:51:27 pm
They have always been short. Like gymnasts. When strength to weigh ratio is important, male athletes are short and female are prepubescent. (There are other factors in climbing, of course).

Although I don't have any hard data to support it it definitely feels like the average height of male podiums in both boulder and lead is decreasing over time. It's pretty rare to see a person over 5'10 in boulder or lead finals these days compared to 5 years ago. Perhaps the more dynamic and powerful new school style suits smaller climbers better.

Presumably, if it was just a matter of strength-to-weight ratio, there would be a similar trend for outdoor climbing. Does anyone know if there is?  Or is there an issue peculiar to indoor climbing? E.g. setters want to avoid any possibility of setting moves impossible for shorter climbers, so they err on the side of making problems that, while possible for all, are disproportionately hard for the tall?

PS I'll admit that at 191 cm my views a little biased in this regard - when problems / cruxes are easy for the tall it's obvious - missing out holds, using big, low footholds - but when it's harder (being bunched, having to lean out to accommodate legs, effect of increased weight / larger fingers etc) it's more subtle.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jwi on July 17, 2023, 09:34:52 pm
Presumably, if it was just a matter of strength-to-weight ratio, there would be a similar trend for outdoor climbing. Does anyone know if there is? 


Cf. https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,33522.msg679844.html#msg679844
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: GraemeA on July 18, 2023, 12:19:21 pm
Who was the last Brit to win a lead world Cup?

Having not really followed it Vickers is the first name that jumps to mind but he may not have. I can picture another bloke but can't remember is name, a bit later. Possibly naughties.

Ian Vickers never won a World Cup. Simon Nadin 1990 is the last.

The Darwen Weasel aka Ian Vickers won the European Championship in Lead sometime in the 90's and also won the X-Games when it was a big deal but he never won a World Cup. I think his best WC result was 3rd in Moscow 1995 when he actually fell off before the 1st bolt but the officials (including me) ordered a rest of the route when lots of people fell off that low
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: James Malloch on July 31, 2023, 10:34:19 pm
Is there anywhere to watch the Bern Qualifications online?

Discovery looks to have:

Womens boulder Semi & Final on Friday.

Men’s boulder Semi & Final on Saturday

Mixed Lead semi and final on Sunday

Then i presume they will also have the combined semi and final next week but the schedule doesn't go that far ahead.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: edshakey on July 31, 2023, 11:40:50 pm
I'd be inclined to bet that they won't be broadcast, just like the world cups haven't been. Which is a shame, given there's not exactly a limit to streams they can have online. I guess it's just a money saver for camera operators, producer, commentator, etc.?

I would have liked to watch them, but as long as they have good coverage semis + finals of lead + boulder + combined, then that's decent. So far this year's coverage has been ok, certainly better than some we've seen!

Fingers crossed Toby can seal it at this first opportunity. Given it's a whole year til Paris, qualifiers here might be some of the first athletes to get selected, for any sport?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: James Malloch on August 01, 2023, 09:04:21 am
I'd be inclined to bet that they won't be broadcast, just like the world cups haven't been. Which is a shame, given there's not exactly a limit to streams they can have online. I guess it's just a money saver for camera operators, producer, commentator, etc.?

I would have liked to watch them, but as long as they have good coverage semis + finals of lead + boulder + combined, then that's decent. So far this year's coverage has been ok, certainly better than some we've seen!

Fingers crossed Toby can seal it at this first opportunity. Given it's a whole year til Paris, qualifiers here might be some of the first athletes to get selected, for any sport?

Thanks - it’s a shame but it’s good to have the other rounds available to watch. I was hoping to have it on in the background this week at work.

How does the Olympic selection work?

Will it just be for the combined lead and Boulder or do the individual lead/boulder competitions count towards it too?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: sherlock on August 01, 2023, 09:45:19 am
Toby hanging in there, Max out of the picture.
The Japanese looking strong as usual....
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: teestub on August 01, 2023, 09:56:54 am

How does the Olympic selection work?

Will it just be for the combined lead and Boulder or do the individual lead/boulder competitions count towards it too?

https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/features/paris_2024_olympic_games_sport_climbing_qualification_and_scoring_explainer-15300 good explainer on the other channel, top 3 from the combined qualify, then there's various other qualification events
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Duma on August 01, 2023, 10:11:23 am
Toby hanging in there, Max out of the picture.
The Japanese looking strong as usual....

Jack too!
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: sherlock on August 01, 2023, 10:16:42 am
....and that 'old' warhorse Schubert still showing the young whippersnappers a thing or two  :punk:
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: AndyP on August 01, 2023, 10:18:16 am
How are you guys watching it? I can't find a YouTube stream even with a VPN....
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Bradders on August 01, 2023, 10:19:58 am
Toby hanging in there, Max out of the picture.
The Japanese looking strong as usual....

Jack Macdougall looking very good for semis though!
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: James Malloch on August 01, 2023, 10:53:43 am

How does the Olympic selection work?

Will it just be for the combined lead and Boulder or do the individual lead/boulder competitions count towards it too?

https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/features/paris_2024_olympic_games_sport_climbing_qualification_and_scoring_explainer-15300 good explainer on the other channel, top 3 from the combined qualify, then there's various other qualification events

Cheers. Any idea if a lot of athletes be doing all 3 (Boulder, Lead, Combined)?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: sherlock on August 01, 2023, 11:02:42 am
How are you guys watching it? I can't find a YouTube stream even with a VPN....
You can't watch it but you can follow the results live on IFSC.results.info
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: teestub on August 01, 2023, 12:32:34 pm

Cheers. Any idea if a lot of athletes be doing all 3 (Boulder, Lead, Combined)?

Top 20 combined ranking from the individual events qualify for combined https://cdn.ifsc-climbing.org/images/Events/2023/230801_Bern_WCH/BL_guide_Bern_WCH.pdf
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jwi on August 01, 2023, 09:07:50 pm
Noticed that all five Japanese men are through to the semifinals, all in top seven. All five French selected are also through, but mostly lower down the ranks. Shows how brutal the competition for spots are in those countries, especially Japan.

Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: edshakey on August 02, 2023, 10:28:15 am
https://youtu.be/o0a4v3QhqQs

A pretty comprehensive highlights video - they seem show all the boulders multiple times. Would imagine the rest of the daily summaries will be similarly good.

Also an extra hint as to why they are not broadcasting qualis - it's in a separate room, not the main arena, so there would definitely not be there setup for live streams.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: sherlock on August 02, 2023, 10:42:06 am
Good find, thanks!
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: sherlock on August 02, 2023, 11:43:25 am
Anybody figure out how the running order for the Women's Lead Qualis is decided? It seems really random.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: edshakey on August 02, 2023, 01:12:07 pm
Think you might have hit the nail on the head!

My understanding was a random order, and then 1st and (N/2)th person climb first, on route 1 and 2 respectively.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Duma on August 02, 2023, 02:45:30 pm
Natalia Grossman going out in qualifying must be a bit of a shock. MTS through comfortably.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: edshakey on August 02, 2023, 03:06:26 pm
Less of a shock than Natalia, but Eliska Adamovska in 28th is maybe a slight surprise, it's not been her best season but she got silver in Briançon.

Job done for Molly  :strongbench:

Any idea why Holly was a DNS? Hopefully she's not out of the boulder too  :'(
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Bradders on August 02, 2023, 03:42:34 pm
Hannah Meul out as well, surprising considering based on last season's form I'd have thought this year it would be three way competition between her, Natalia and Janja.

Brilliant for Molly TS though.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Muenchener on August 02, 2023, 04:39:37 pm
Hannah Meul out as well, surprising considering based on last season's form I'd have thought this year it would be three way competition between her, Natalia and Janja.

You're aware that this was the lead qualification, right?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: sherlock on August 02, 2023, 04:45:39 pm
Ai Mori up there. She's finished above Janja before.
Surprised to see Laura Ragora,
MTS, really hope she makes final, so close last couple of comps!
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: sherlock on August 02, 2023, 04:49:17 pm
Hannah Meul out as well, surprising considering based on last season's form I'd have thought this year it would be three way competition between her, Natalia and Janja.

You're aware that this was the lead qualification, right?
Her bouldering season has been disappointing as well.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Bradders on August 02, 2023, 06:07:49 pm
Hannah Meul out as well, surprising considering based on last season's form I'd have thought this year it would be three way competition between her, Natalia and Janja.

You're aware that this was the lead qualification, right?

Yeah of course but she's still placed fairly well in lead recently.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: James Malloch on August 03, 2023, 09:58:09 am
As it seems different to the UKC explanation, can anyone explain what the numbers on the lead qualification results mean?

https://ifsc.results.info/#/event/1301/cr/7701

Currently it looks like joint first reached a lower point than joint 3rd, but their decimal score is lower…
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: edshakey on August 03, 2023, 10:28:46 am
The app doesn't make 100% sense to me, not sure how Sorato and Jakob have the same "1" on route two despite falling 4 holds apart...

But ultimately, the description on UKC is just for combined, so won't make sense for these lead qualifiers. It's just the usual lead method, the place you fall leads to a ranking, and there's some method for combining the rankings from the two routes. I appreciate that that's all a bit vague, but basically, the whole "each hold counts for a number of points" thing doesn't happen until the actual combined event later in the championships.

I think maybe one solution to your confusion might be that Adam and Toby haven't climbed route 2 yet, so they have a poor route 2 score (basically like falling on the first hold). Whereas Yufei has climbed both and done fairly well in both, so that counts for more
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jakk on August 03, 2023, 10:40:34 am
It's because they're doing it in 2 groups, so they are both currently highest on their group's route 2.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: IanP on August 03, 2023, 11:03:03 am
It's because they're doing it in 2 groups, so they are both currently highest on their group's route 2.

I was getting a bit confused by this.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mbM-xSrROew

This confirms that there are 4 routes in qualifying with group A and group B doing different routes, so to make more sense of what is happening it can help to look at the scores for the groups separately.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Stabbsy on August 03, 2023, 11:21:27 am
As it seems different to the UKC explanation, can anyone explain what the numbers on the lead qualification results mean?

https://ifsc.results.info/#/event/1301/cr/7701

Currently it looks like joint first reached a lower point than joint 3rd, but their decimal score is lower…

The decimal score is the square root of the product of your ranking (within each group). Jakob is currently 1st on both routes so square root of 1 x 1 is 1, all fairly easy so far. Ondra currently showing as 1st on route 1 and 3rd on route 2 (in a different group to Jakob). However, he was level with Toby Roberts on route 1 so he gets a score of 1.5 for route 1 multiplied by 3 for route 2, giving 4.5. Square root of 4.5 is 2.12, which is Ondra's current score. If you haven't done the second route, it makes an assumption for your ranking. Not quite worked out how that assumption is calculated, but something along the lines of assuming everyone that hasn't climbed yet falls off the first hold.

Basically, it doesn't make much sense until everyone has climbed both routes.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: edshakey on August 03, 2023, 11:47:36 am
It's because they're doing it in 2 groups, so they are both currently highest on their group's route 2.

Ah that'd explain it, cheers

As it seems different to the UKC explanation, can anyone explain what the numbers on the lead qualification results mean?

https://ifsc.results.info/#/event/1301/cr/7701

Currently it looks like joint first reached a lower point than joint 3rd, but their decimal score is lower…

The decimal score is the square root of the product of your ranking (within each group).
Any idea why they do the square root? The rankings would be unchanged if they did just the product, and the numbers are fairly meaningless anyway so seems like an unnecessary extra step?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jwi on August 03, 2023, 12:24:28 pm
It's because they're doing it in 2 groups, so they are both currently highest on their group's route 2.

Ah that'd explain it, cheers

As it seems different to the UKC explanation, can anyone explain what the numbers on the lead qualification results mean?

https://ifsc.results.info/#/event/1301/cr/7701

Currently it looks like joint first reached a lower point than joint 3rd, but their decimal score is lower…

The decimal score is the square root of the product of your ranking (within each group).
Any idea why they do the square root? The rankings would be unchanged if they did just the product, and the numbers are fairly meaningless anyway so seems like an unnecessary extra step?

To preserve the unit of measurement ;) "Being on (geometric) average around 3rd place" is easier to say (and understand) than "being on average around square placed 9"
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: edshakey on August 03, 2023, 02:07:20 pm
That's very true. I suppose I was just thinking that nobody really talks about the numbers in lead qualis anyway so who cares!

Glad to see Toby seal an inevitable combined spot, not sure any other Brits will have snuck in?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: James Malloch on August 03, 2023, 05:34:48 pm
Thanks for the explanation!
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jakk on August 03, 2023, 07:32:04 pm
Glad to see Toby seal an inevitable combined spot, not sure any other Brits will have snuck in?

Looks like Molly's in both semis!
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: edshakey on August 04, 2023, 01:47:25 am
Yes! When I posted, it was just men who had competed twice, but you're right, Molly surely has done enough for combined. Very exciting!
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Stabbsy on August 04, 2023, 11:59:15 am
Any thoughts on the value of tactical poor performances in the individual events at these champs? You probably need to make semis in both lead and boulder to guarantee making it into the combined semis, but if you make finals then it’s a lot of back to back competition this week, then 2 days rest followed by a full-on day next Wednesday to qualify for combined finals 2 or 3 days later. Best chance of  Olympic qualification for some might be to back off in the individual semis if they’re already qualified for the combined.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jwi on August 04, 2023, 01:27:05 pm
Micka Mawem is pretty good at peaking at the right time, no?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: SA Chris on August 04, 2023, 01:47:17 pm
unlike his brother, getting injured at worst time.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jwi on August 04, 2023, 05:36:50 pm
Shauna Coxsey is a very good pundit, btw.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Muenchener on August 04, 2023, 06:15:04 pm
Shauna Coxsey is a very good pundit, btw.

Best I've ever heard imo. The co-commentators are obviously always very knowledgeable, but Shauna's reflections on technique, tactics, headspace are on another level.

Currently trying to get through the semifinal replay in time for the final - and failing because I keep rewinding to have another listen to a bit of Shauna wisdom
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jwi on August 04, 2023, 07:35:59 pm
Inoxydable Micka Mawem !
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: sirlockoff on August 05, 2023, 07:29:07 am
what a beast Mickael, 33 years old, and chuffed to see him win. It was also against probably the toughest field you can ever have, every big hitter present in semis (ondra, schubert, tomoa, toby, and so on)

Somehow he always becomes alive when olympics are on the stake
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Bradders on August 05, 2023, 09:29:57 am
Shauna really is brilliant as a pundit. Feels like you're getting genuine value for money from the subscription. Hope this is a more regular thing!

The setting for the Men's semi and final was also impeccable. Split the field perfectly, great variation in problems and styles to play to different strengths and weaknesses, a good spectacle without too much circus climbing. Semi problem 2 was maybe a little too hard but then Sorato cruised it which was a cool showcase of just how good he is.

Thoughts on the see-through no-tex holds? I don't really understand why having slightly damp hands would help. Certainly made for an entertaining final problem, especially when Mawem just stuck the move to the zone.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jwi on August 05, 2023, 09:36:39 am
I thought the final problem was utter nonsense and I am happy it didn't much affect the outcome. Made for an ok spectacle at least. The run across the boxes was also nonsense, and boring to look at as well. (My parents who have never seen a bouldering comp also lost all interest looking at climbers looking stupid about then).

I don't know if I have ever seen a final where finger strength has counted for so little.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Dingdong on August 05, 2023, 09:56:52 am
I thought the final problem was utter nonsense and I am happy it didn't much affect the outcome. Made for an ok spectacle at least. The run across the boxes was also nonsense, and boring to look at as well. (My parents who have never seen a bouldering comp also lost all interest looking at climbers looking stupid about then).

I don't know if I have ever seen a final where finger strength has counted for so little.

I think you underestimate just how much finger strength is required for that final problem, especially the move to the top hold off that bad right hand pinch. Same goes for the yellow problem. And then how much shoulder strength and stability was needed for the press one with the volumes. I thought it was a great set of problems and I would personally enjoy having a go on them just as much as I would ratting on limestone.

For me watching someone path a ladder of crimps is infinitely more boring but everyone has their preferences I guess.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Droyd on August 05, 2023, 11:37:13 am
the subscription

Not sure if this is already common knowledge, but it's possible to watch the streams both live and after the fact for free via YouTube with a VPN.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Neil F on August 05, 2023, 11:50:13 am
Any chance of a link...?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: duncan on August 05, 2023, 11:58:12 am
https://protonvpn.com

Download the free version, follow instructions, set your location to USA, then open YouTube and look for IFSC channel.

Enjoyed the mens final, not sure about the glassy holds but certainly created a spectacle.

Also thought Shauna was a brilliant co-commentor, I learned a lot.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Neil F on August 05, 2023, 11:59:55 am
Thanks Duncan
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Droyd on August 05, 2023, 12:00:43 pm
https://www.youtube.com/@sportclimbing/streams

Or go to the IFSC Youtube page and then the 'Live' (not 'Videos') tab to see the different streams, including ones scheduled for the rest of the event.

However you won't see any of the Bern World Champs content if YouTube thinks you're in Europe, which is where the VPN comes in - if you're on Chrome this one works well: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/free-vpn-for-chrome-vpn-p/majdfhpaihoncoakbjgbdhglocklcgno.

Set that to one of the free USA ones (Oregon and Virginia both seem to work) and you should then be able to watch everything. Hope that's clear enough!
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Neil F on August 05, 2023, 12:31:39 pm
Brilliant - thanks Droyd  ;D
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: stone on August 05, 2023, 01:52:57 pm
Thoughts on the see-through no-tex holds? I don't really understand why having slightly damp hands would help. Certainly made for an entertaining final problem, especially when Mawem just stuck the move to the zone.
Is it because the no-tex holds can't bite into the skin at all -so the only way to stick on is by a sort of sucker effect? At work, we've got labels for glass fish tanks that are just very smooth flexible plastic with no glue. They stick solidly even to damp glass. I guess the aim is to become a human climber version of those tank labels.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: PipeSmoke on August 05, 2023, 06:38:55 pm
I guess it’s all down to preference but Shauna talks way too much for my taste. Feels like she makes a good observation and then waffles on about it for a while, then repeats it all for the next climber. She’s clearly a lot more comfortable than the other co-commentators they get on though
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: IanP on August 05, 2023, 09:18:02 pm
I guess it’s all down to preference but Shauna talks way too much for my taste. Feels like she makes a good observation and then waffles on about it for a while, then repeats it all for the next climber. She’s clearly a lot more comfortable than the other co-commentators they get on though

Some initial nervousness maybe , but I think she is settling in quickly and for me adds a lot of insight and is doing an excellent job.

Away from that I enjoyed the women's final.  Obviously lacked a bit of tension for the gold but for me there's a real enjoyment in seeing a truly great athlete perform so well.

If you exclude Janja the setters actually did a good job with excellent separation between the competitors.

Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Duma on August 06, 2023, 11:20:19 am
Toby and Molly through to lead finals!
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: crimpinainteasy on August 06, 2023, 12:18:54 pm
Both Molly and Toby through to finals tonight!
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: edshakey on August 06, 2023, 12:23:28 pm
Anyone know if Molly and Toby made finals?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: James Malloch on August 06, 2023, 12:30:06 pm
Anyone know if Molly and Toby made finals?

Spoiler below…


NSFW  :
Yep, Toby won the semis

https://ifsc.results.info/#/event/1301/cr/8322

and molly came 4th  :strongbench:

https://ifsc.results.info/#/event/1301/cr/8323

Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Teaboy on August 06, 2023, 01:45:04 pm
NSFW  :
Only one male made both lead and boulder finals as against 4 women (from my brief scan)
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Duma on August 06, 2023, 01:51:16 pm
Don't think so?

2 men (Dohyun and Sorato) and 3 women (Janja, Brooke, and Ai) in both finals?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Teaboy on August 06, 2023, 02:21:39 pm
Glad I made it NSFW, hopefully means not as many people ready my nonsense!
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: finbarrr on August 06, 2023, 03:50:48 pm
Thoughts on the see-through no-tex holds? I don't really understand why having slightly damp hands would help. Certainly made for an entertaining final problem, especially when Mawem just stuck the move to the zone.
Is it because the no-tex holds can't bite into the skin at all -so the only way to stick on is by a sort of sucker effect? At work, we've got labels for glass fish tanks that are just very smooth flexible plastic with no glue. They stick solidly even to damp glass. I guess the aim is to become a human climber version of those tank labels.

I thought this worthy of more debate,
Though I’m hesitant to write much on my phone (in Zwitserland for the holidays) , I’ll try.
The no tex/polished holds seemed to affect different skin types differently. Nicolai Usnik did not seem to have much trouble, but I did not have the luxury of rewind buttons, so I could not see his skin prep. Maybe it helped that he was the first one on clean holds.
The others had more problems.
I think Sam avazou only stuk the slippery part on his third try with water. Kokoro had no chance with magnesium.
Anraku did not like his one try with water , and had no chance with magnesium.
Mawem seemed very far off until he used his lotion/potion. My guess is that it was liquid chalk with resin. He seemed to rub it on his skin, wipe off the excess, then climb before it dried out.
Now here comes the issue.
Was there resin in his “chalk”?
how much resin is allowed?
How much should be allowed?
I don’t know
Personally , I’d fancy the goo that strong men use to pick up atlas balls
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: sirlockoff on August 06, 2023, 09:37:14 pm
there's a climbing feat where you need to lift a flipped beer pint with thumb on the side and index finger on the bottom (I hold the current sheffield record of 5 pints stacked to each other), anyone who has played it knows that your hands need to be sticky (not wet, but not dry either, just at the perfect middle, anything else and it is impossible),

now how this converts to these glassy texture holds I am not sure
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: edshakey on August 06, 2023, 09:52:21 pm
Anyone know if Molly and Toby made finals?

Spoiler below…


NSFW  :
Yep, Toby won the semis

https://ifsc.results.info/#/event/1301/cr/8322

and molly came 4th  :strongbench:

https://ifsc.results.info/#/event/1301/cr/8323


I appreciate the answer, but I was just taking the piss at the previous messages saying the same thing twice ;D

NSFW  :
Shame it didn't pan out for them in the end. Absolutely gutted for them both, especially Toby to fall in that way. Fingers crossed his luck can change for combined
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: lukeyboy on August 10, 2023, 08:39:43 am
Does anyone know when the men's and women's combined semis and finals are happening? Looks like perhaps yesterday/today?

I found it difficult to find on IFSC website, but I am an idiot.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: RobK on August 10, 2023, 08:43:25 am
Semis were yesterday. Women's finals tomorrow, men's finals on Saturday.

Edit: I watched the semis yesterday. Enjoyed the new scoring format (did not enjoy the commentary team explaining it a million times and saying how complicated it is, it isn't) but seems to put a lot of pressure on the setters to create two balanced rounds.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: lukeyboy on August 10, 2023, 08:54:37 am
Nice one, cheers
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: James Malloch on August 10, 2023, 09:19:09 am
Semis were yesterday. Women's finals tomorrow, men's finals on Saturday.

Edit: I watched the semis yesterday. Enjoyed the new scoring format (did not enjoy the commentary team explaining it a million times and saying how complicated it is, it isn't) but seems to put a lot of pressure on the setters to create two balanced rounds.

They are well worth watching if you get time, especially the lead.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: SA Chris on August 10, 2023, 09:19:39 am
How many go through to the final in the combined?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: edshakey on August 10, 2023, 10:20:04 am
How many go through to the final in the combined?

8 men, 8 women
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: SA Chris on August 10, 2023, 10:34:03 am
Thanks
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: SA Chris on August 10, 2023, 10:37:51 am
Looks like there was a stopper move in the women's lead, so they all get the same points?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: lukeyboy on August 10, 2023, 03:14:49 pm
Semis were yesterday. Women's finals tomorrow, men's finals on Saturday.

Edit: I watched the semis yesterday. Enjoyed the new scoring format (did not enjoy the commentary team explaining it a million times and saying how complicated it is, it isn't) but seems to put a lot of pressure on the setters to create two balanced rounds.

They are well worth watching if you get time, especially the lead.

Cheers, I watched the short highlights earlier which was as much as I had time for but gave an idea of the rounds.

NSFW  :
Love that Janja had made 6th place (from memory?) before even stepping onto the lead route. And great to see Toby placing so well  :bow:
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Bradders on August 10, 2023, 10:00:40 pm
Looks like there was a stopper move in the women's lead, so they all get the same points?

Yeah, seemed like a very hard move going right hand to an absolutely tiny rail with the right hand, off a left sloper with poor feet, to get onto the headwall.

Thought the scoring system and combined format was great, made for some really interesting results. Also seems to give a nicely even weighting to both elements.

NSFW  :
Amazing performance from Schubert on the lead route to make it through despite a really poor boulder round. Top class.

Similar for Toby, he just seems to come alive when he gets onto a headwall, cruise control.

Have to feel it's Sorato's to lose though.

Paul Jenft had an amazing boulder round too. Made very little impression on the lead route but it didn't matter.

Janja will surely win the women's given her ability in both styles, Ai being nowhere near in boulder and Bertone not being quite as good on lead.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: lukeyboy on August 10, 2023, 11:23:12 pm
Looks like there was a stopper move in the women's lead, so they all get the same points?

Yeah, seemed like a very hard move going right hand to an absolutely tiny rail with the right hand, off a left sloper with poor feet, to get onto the headwall.

Thought the scoring system and combined format was great, made for some really interesting results. Also seems to give a nicely even weighting to both elements.

NSFW  :
Amazing performance from Schubert on the lead route to make it through despite a really poor boulder round. Top class.

Similar for Toby, he just seems to come alive when he gets onto a headwall, cruise control.

Have to feel it's Sorato's to lose though.

Paul Jenft had an amazing boulder round too. Made very little impression on the lead route but it didn't matter.

Janja will surely win the women's given her ability in both styles, Ai being nowhere near in boulder and Bertone not being quite as good on lead.

Agreed, the scoring system was good and well balanced. Much better to base it on progress on the routes rather than relative placing to other competitors, so it takes account of performances being really close, or miles apart, rather than just 1st place and 2nd place (then multiplication bullshit).
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Offwidth on August 11, 2023, 02:42:35 pm
A heads up for the Para finals... in the 6 hour running time the actual climbing starts at about 30 minutes in and finishes around the 4 hour mark. The climbing is on four routes which range from F6c to F8a+

https://www.youtube.com/live/RwQbZNGSUZA?feature=share
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Teaboy on August 11, 2023, 05:36:39 pm

Agreed, the scoring system was good and well balanced. Much better to base it on progress on the routes rather than relative placing to other competitors, so it takes account of performances being really close, or miles apart, rather than just 1st place and 2nd place (then multiplication bullshit).

It certainly worked well this time but its not hard to imagine an alternative scenario with a set of very hard boulders and a relatively easy lead route which would favour the lead climbers, or vice versa of course. A lot of pressure in the route setters ti get it consistent but I do think its good that progress on individual boulders is more granular (although it must mean longer problems generally)
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: James Malloch on August 11, 2023, 07:39:27 pm
A heads up for the Para finals... in the 6 hour running time the actual climbing starts at about 30 minutes in and finishes around the 4 hour mark. The climbing is on four routes which range from F6c to F8a+

https://www.youtube.com/live/RwQbZNGSUZA?feature=share

Cheers for the time range. I’m planning to watch it on Monday 🙂

Did they talk about the route grades on the commentary?

It would be interesting to know what the ranges are for the other routes/boulders.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Offwidth on August 12, 2023, 01:28:42 am
Yes, on the commentary with all the usual provisos that the setters don't want to talk about grades; and then of course that grades involve topping out. Still, watching someone like Seb approach his route and get to where he did blows my mind and overall, as a set of finals, it was very varied and compelling viewing.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Wellsy on August 12, 2023, 03:45:40 pm
Schubert has been eating his weetabix...
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jwi on August 12, 2023, 07:18:52 pm
Schubert understood the assignment, as they say
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: edshakey on September 09, 2023, 06:25:38 pm
Bit disappointing that the British lead champs clashes with the last world cup of the season? I appreciate the schedule can be busy, and there may always be people who don't do BLCCs to rest for a WCs that don't actually clash, but at least give them the choice. By making our best lead climbers choose between WC and national comp, we're just going to get a substandard British champs.

Anyway, good luck Toby in finals this eve!
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: edshakey on September 09, 2023, 07:22:01 pm
Oops, penultimate WC, not last
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Duma on October 27, 2023, 11:22:50 am
Anyone know where to see Laval results? (Ideally without attempting to use the IFSCs horror show of a website) The app isn't updating for some reason, am I missing something?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Bradders on October 27, 2023, 11:26:20 am
https://ifsc.results.info/#/event/1308
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Duma on October 27, 2023, 12:47:33 pm
Thanks Bradders!
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: teestub on October 29, 2023, 03:33:45 pm
Worth noting that the full streams for Laval are on the IFSC youtube https://www.youtube.com/@sportclimbing
forgot how fun it is watching a comp before they decided they needed to be behind a paywall or whatever.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: edshakey on October 29, 2023, 04:49:06 pm
Toby absolutely cruised it! Easily most deserving over the rounds, made the others look like punters on that final lead route.

Stressful watch! Time to relax now...
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Duma on October 29, 2023, 05:46:43 pm
Yeah looked different class didn't he

Staja had some interesting comments on her IG about home advantage, are the setters also setting for the French team training?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: edshakey on October 29, 2023, 06:14:38 pm
Yeah looked different class didn't he

For sure. Looked so solid, clearly progressed a lot since Bern. Hopefully he can have a good off season (some rock maybe  :bounce:) and come into Paris feeling relaxed and confident.

Staja had some interesting comments on her IG about home advantage, are the setters also setting for the French team training?

Can you copy/paste for the non instagramers? I'm intrigued as to her angle, since these were the routesetters:

Chief Routesetter Boulder: Garrett Gregor (USA)
Routesetters Boulder: Sergio Verdasco (ESP) - Remi Samyn (FRA)
Chief Routesetter Lead: Adam Pustelnik (POL)
Routesetters Lead: Jan Zbranek (CZE) - Julien Gras (FRA)

Two French, out of six. Doesn't strike me as a massive advantage?
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Duma on October 29, 2023, 06:31:02 pm
She's deleted it now, and I can't remember the exact wording. Guess she wouldn't want it quoted on the web now which is fair enough.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: duncan on October 29, 2023, 07:08:14 pm
She said: "second time losing the Olympic ticket eith (sic) the second place on the continental quail from the home country competitor. That is really fu**ing bitter you know".

I don't think that is necessarily having a go at home route setting. She's understandably pissed-off at coming second but Oriane Bertone looked the most likely throughout and was first by a good margin.

Great competition with a good spread of results in both men and women's comps. No controversies, no-one timing-out on lead, no mass tops other than the women's quals. which didn't really affect things. A couple of the final boulders were a little too hard or a little too easy but, overall, there was good separation. The eventual winners were first or second in all three rounds and, to me, the clear stands-outs of the event. In both finals, the second placed were quite a way back, not close to top spot.

Good to have it on YouTube without having to resort to VPN.

NSFW  :
The men's lead route setters must have been high-fiving when Toby topped-out.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Duma on October 29, 2023, 07:44:39 pm
She said: "second time losing the Olympic ticket eith (sic) the second place on the continental quail from the home country competitor. That is really fu**ing bitter you know".

I don't think that is necessarily having a go at home route setting. She's understandably pissed-off at coming second but Oriane Bertone looked the most likely throughout and was first by a good margin.]
Thats not the post I was referring to. That one is still up.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: abarro81 on October 29, 2023, 07:47:06 pm
Sounds like she's just bitter and looking for a reason that's not "they were better than me on the day"
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: teestub on October 29, 2023, 08:25:17 pm
She's understandably pissed-off at coming second but Oriane Bertone looked the most likely throughout and was first by a good margin.


This. Staša looked good but Oriane was a level up, near perfect boulder round and looked to have gas in the tank.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Bradders on October 29, 2023, 10:03:28 pm
Yeah looked different class didn't he

He still looked to be struggling on the steepest bit, which has happened before. Definitely a weakness for him. Once he gets onto a headwall though he's in a different league! Brilliant to have a Brit into the Olympics again.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: PeteHukb on October 29, 2023, 10:14:54 pm
Agh so psyched for Toby! Will be good for him to have demonstrated to himself just how much he deserved the top spot and the Olympic ticket.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: edshakey on October 29, 2023, 11:23:32 pm
Yeah looked different class didn't he

He still looked to be struggling on the steepest bit, which has happened before. Definitely a weakness for him. Once he gets onto a headwall though he's in a different league! Brilliant to have a Brit into the Olympics again.

That's true, my heart was in my mouth on the campus section. But the difference between him and Adam was amazing - both started looking uncomfortable around the same point but Toby just didn't stop fighting, he can just keep going when he looks completely done!

The men's lead route setters must have been high-fiving when Toby topped-out.
Glad the last move wasn't the decider, I hate when lead routes are split like that. In the end, it just made for a nice showy way to start the celebrations.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: SA Chris on October 30, 2023, 04:20:38 pm
Not IFSC, but Jesse Gruper & Natalia Grossman have Olympic spots from winning at Pan American Games.

https://olympics.com/en/news/pan-american-games-2023-natalia-grossman-wins-sport-climbing

https://olympics.com/en/news/pan-am-games-jesse-grupper-gold-sport-climbing-resultssantiago-2023
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jwi on October 31, 2023, 08:18:34 pm
Grimper magazine is giving high praise to Toby Roberts https://www.grimper.com/news-tqo-laval-2023-toby-robert-bien-trop-fort
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: danm on October 31, 2023, 08:41:46 pm
Grimper magazine is giving high praise to Toby Roberts https://www.grimper.com/news-tqo-laval-2023-toby-robert-bien-trop-fort
The translation of that is pure gold! Caesar and Brutus, you wouldn't get that in a dry UKC newsflash! Arthur Delicque must be the Gallic equivalent to Grimer...
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Percy B on October 31, 2023, 08:55:34 pm
There was a team of 5 setters for boulder. One IFSC chief (from USA) and then 3 French setters and Sergio (who is almost an honorary Frenchie as he spends so much time setting there). I think the setting team for lead was more balanced but it was fairly French heavy setting team for boulder.... Maybe Stasa has a point? There is certainly a history of French climbers doing very well when the setting team is predominantly from their home country.... :worms:
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: PlainCroi$$ant on November 01, 2023, 07:47:03 am
Over the course of all the boulder world cups this year Oriane scored 2649 points to Stasa’s 1893 - so it could also be that she’s been consistently climbing better than her all year and has continued that form…
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: wasbeen on November 01, 2023, 08:04:53 am
Is there any other sport that is so influenced by route/course setting? Whether or not it influenced the results this time, it is clearly an enormous elephant in the room. I wonder when we will see the first route fixing ban?

Take the men's final boulder problems. One problem was topped by everyone. Leaving 3 problems to select from. Two of which were slabs and one appeared un-toppable. It is quite likely that you end up with a selection which benefits a very particular set of skills.

No idea what the answer is but clearly having a bigger sample size (more routes/problems) would help.

Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: jwi on November 01, 2023, 08:16:06 am
Is there any other sport that is so influenced by route/course setting? [...]

Alpine skiing. The courses are usually set by the top-coaches and they actively try to set the course to be advantageous to their athlete. It might be harder/easier to influence the outcome in skiing. I am not good enough at skiing courses, and not on competition style indoor climbing either, to be able to compare.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: mde on November 01, 2023, 09:33:09 am
From my understanding of the two sports (alpine skiing vs. indoor bouldering, obviously I haven't competed at top level in either) I would say you can achieve a bigger advantage in bouldering. In skiing, there are still quite strict rules for course setting (e.g. gate distances) and whereas one can set the course a bit more direct/faster or not (within clearly defined limits), one cannot set something like "specific moves" that one could train beforehand, but the other athletes cannot.

In bouldering I'd say it is different, if one has the opportunity to train on the relevant wall angles (and know them), on the holds that are used for the comp and in movement patterns that will be tested at the comp, one has a quite big competitive advantage. After all, there is much more freedom if setting a boulder compared to a skiing course.

But the analogy to alpine skiing also sprung to my mind when I saw Stasas story. Especially in downhill and super g most top athletes come from a small selection of national teams that have the size and funds to organize trainings in racing conditions. Certainly in bouldering the effort for training under comp conditions is not likewise, but still you require top setters that permanently provide problems with the newest selection of holds for not being disadvantaged. And I imagine as the sport matures (and hence the difference between athletes becomes smaller), this may be even more important.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: remus on November 01, 2023, 09:57:27 am
One problem was topped by everyone. Leaving 3 problems to select from.

Small correction, but you are scored on attempts as well as tops/zones so on the problem topped by everyone there was some separation base on attempts.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Muenchener on November 01, 2023, 10:31:11 am
But the analogy to alpine skiing also sprung to my mind when I saw Stasas story. Especially in downhill and super g most top athletes come from a small selection of national teams that have the size and funds to organize trainings in racing conditions. Certainly in bouldering the effort for training under comp conditions is not likewise, but still you require top setters that permanently provide problems with the newest selection of holds for not being disadvantaged. And I imagine as the sport matures (and hence the difference between athletes becomes smaller), this may be even more important.

It's always going to be tough(er) if, like Stasa, you're the only world class athlete from your country. She certainly seems to spend a lot of time travelling to train - I get the impression she hangs out with the Slovenians quite a bit, and I regularly see her at climbing walls here in Munich. Which is not as strenuous or expensive as a skier spending the northern hemisphere summer in Chile, but sill much harder than having world class training facilities near the comfort of you own home, which I'm guessing she probably doesn't have anywhere in Serbia.

(Retro-edit to please SA Chris)
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: SA Chris on November 01, 2023, 10:32:17 am
Why would a skier go to Chile in the summer ;)
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: Muenchener on November 01, 2023, 10:54:48 am
Oops, northern hemisphere centric thinking. Fixed
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: SA Chris on November 01, 2023, 12:43:53 pm
just pissing with you, I know what you meant.
Title: Re: IFSC comps 2023
Post by: sherlock on November 10, 2023, 09:56:51 am
Asian qualifications for Olympics semi final on Discovery+.

For some reason it's called European qualis in Jakarta  :shrug:.
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