UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: Gulmark on December 28, 2013, 02:47:07 pm
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Hey guys
im a new member, but have been enoying following this forum for a long time. :)
Im planning a hypertrophy phase and was wondering if it was possible to train forarm hypertrophy on a campus board?
high intensity campus ladder w. feet with 1 min reps? other possibilities?
I know repeaters on a hangboard is good tool for hypertrophy, but i also know ill get bored with this compared to done some type of exercises on a campus board. ;D
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Erm isn't hypertrophy an increase in muscle size?
Repeaters good for hypertrophy? Not at all
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Erm isn't hypertrophy an increase in muscle size?
Repeaters good for hypertrophy? Not at all
I dont know but Stu thinks it does
If my understanding is right you want to spend most of your time doing hypertrophy training - larger volumes of less intense work (I.e repeaters) -and then have a phase of recruitment (max hangs) towards the end.
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Dunning seemed to advocate 30s hangs for hypertrophy, which would fit with short repeaters e.g. 3 or 4 hangs. On the campus board I would try an an cap style workout - around 15-20 campus moves in a row with rests of maybe 1.30-2min.
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Now I don't understand at all. I'm obviously taking hypertrophy to mean something completely different or it's a strange alternate universe where stu gives advice on building muscle. This is much worse than listening to Paul B on the subject :kiss2:
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Bite me baldy.
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Hypertrophy = muscle building. Requires 6-10 reps of work at around 75% of max for the best efficiency.
What part of that doesn't sound like repeaters?
And dense my muscles are fucking huge. They're just buried under layers of chocolate and mcdonalds.
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The 75% of max bit confuses me here. How are you proposing that you determine the 1RM in this case?
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I wouldn't bother. It's a rough target, not something to get fussy about. I think research shows that hypertrophy occurs over a wide range of intensities. Above 60% seems to be important.
Basically it means "try really hard, but don't fail"
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On paper stu yes. I could also stare very hard at this screen for 6-10 secs for a few sets but my eyes aren't going to get any bigger.
Gulmark could be a guinea pig for this, do finger boarding and campussing regularly and see if your forearms pack on muscle as opposed to getting better tone. When the answers no post it up.
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On paper stu yes. I could also think very hard for 6-10 secs for a few sets but my head isn't going to get any bigger.
Careful about over-generalising there Dense ;)
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Basically it means "try really hard, but don't fail"
I heard that Dense never fails when he tries hard
for him, that sentence is meaningless
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Could you simply substitute 'Dense' for 'Chuck Norris' in a multitude of quotes and anecdotes that fly around? ;)
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Around 8 moves taking about 15-20secs... on a campus board would be for example 1, 4, 7, 10 share 7, 4, 1 share. About 3 mins rest and about 6 reps of this. This is my interpretation of how you could hypertrophy on a campus board I think? :blink: It is also a recipe for screw elbows especially on the drop downs as you tire :badidea:
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If the drop downs are bad when you get tired wouldn't it make more sense to drop off at 10 and then do another set of up immediately?
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Isometric contractions are not generally recommended for mass gain
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This is why god made big fucking weights
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Finger rolls with a barbell are reputedly good for forearm hypertrophy. Whether that transfers usefully to isometric finger strength is another matter.
IIRC correctly Serpico experimented in combining deadhanging with finger rolls in a session with some success though not enough to stop him getting sand kicked in his face at the beach.
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ah forearm hypertrophy missed that... nah campus is not the way, arms yes, fingers no.... what you need is a fingerboard.. :whistle:
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I wonder what 'Big Poppa Pump' suggests for gains in forearm size?
Wrist curls 10 reps at 80% followed by 10 chickens 3 bags of pasta and some anabolic steroids. :weakbench:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sy-zc6DMWs8&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dsy-zc6DMWs8 (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sy-zc6DMWs8&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dsy-zc6DMWs8)
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What might be interesting for some of those route climbers out there is that hypertrophy of the muscle does not result in:
1. Matching increase in capillarity (i,e. the % capillarity of the muscle bed will decrease)
2. Total volume of mitochondria will not increase and neither will the mitochondrial enzymes.
So therefore, you'll get your gains in anaerobic performance with the hypertrophy, but a significant decrease in aerobic performance as the capacity of the muscle per unit of mass goes down. You might pull harder, but ya can't pull for longer.
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Presumably that can be rectified through aerocap though? Or are you saying I'm only fit 'cos I've got weedy forearms :ras:
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So therefore, you'll get your gains in anaerobic performance with the hypertrophy, but a significant decrease in aerobic performance as the capacity of the muscle per unit of mass goes down. You might pull harder, but ya can't pull for longer.
Presumably relative aerobic performance (to the size of the muscle or to the level of anaerobic performance) as opposed to absolute?
Same absolute volume of capillary, same number of mitochondria (they spread out between the old cells and the new?) seems to be what you're saying, in which case the same amount of work can be sustained, and as Barrows says you need to do the aerocap to convince your body to work harder with the extra muscle?
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Well, it's kind of tricky. If you look at a weightlifter who's bulked up massively, they have increased the size of their fast twitch muscle fibres. This isn't great as fast twitch fibres are rubbish at aerobic work. Absolutely rubbish. Metabolically, they work very differently.
You will also get an increased production rate of waste products with more anaerobic work being done and you will need to put in place a system for dealing with that - what you do with the H+ importantly. As Alex points out a good system of aerobic capacity work will go some way towards helping with this.
There is some thought that increased muscle bulk can help with the distribution of waste products through the forearm as muscles don't work isolated in a metabolic sense. As ever with these things, it's hard to know what's what, unless it's pretty basic stuff that's be trialled over many years and experimented with.
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Makes sense that fast and slow fibres would have different predispositions to aerobic vs anaerobic work, but I didn't realise that hypertrophy stimulated uneven production of them.
The simple model in my head (same work level demands same amount of sugars and oxygen and produces same waste, delivered by same volume of capillaries and metabolised by same amount of mitochondria) doesn't necessarily add up if the metabolic pathway is less efficient (ie on average more anaerobic due to changed muscle makeup).
Interesting stuff, thanks for coming back!
Andy
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Makes sense that fast and slow fibres would have different predispositions to aerobic vs anaerobic work, but I didn't realise that hypertrophy stimulated uneven production of them.
This is a pretty good point. Fast and slow twitch muscle fiber undergo hypertrophy under different conditions.
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I wouldn't bother. It's a rough target, not something to get fussy about.
But with weights its 'relatively' straightforward to work out your 1RM and then work back from that to get the intensity right.
The way I've done repeaters in the past is generally one set on a number of different grip types. Whereas if we're talking about for example the crimps, I'm going to find a set of repeaters tricky at the end of the 'block' of different grip types (with two arms) but that is far from what I'd imagine my 1RM is on such a hold?
Setting the intensity on things like Ancap or longer circuits is always really damn tricky.
I know, I know, too bogged down... :worms:
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1. Matching increase in capillarity (i,e. the % capillarity of the muscle bed will decrease)
Wouldn't an increaesd capillary bed volume in aerobic exercise be required to increase the efficiency of the muscle in terms of oxgen supply or is there an increase in myoglobulin during aerobic exercise?
2. Total volume of mitochondria will not increase and neither will the mitochondrial enzymes.
I assume that the volume of mitochondria will not increase as we are talking about hypertrophy - an increase in cell size?
I also read somewhere that muscle cells have limited capacity for hypertrophy and instead have a higher tendency to undergo hyperplasia which would result in more mitochondria due the proliferation of cells.
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I have a few more questions (sorry!):
Because were talking about hypertrophy here, were not referring to the formation of new muscle fibres but the increase in cell size. So, is this increase in cell size due to an increase in myosin/actin which would result in more cross-bridgining and therefore increase contractile strength? Or are we actually referring to the formation of new muscle fibres which would then be hyperplasia?
Sorry, i am confused :shrug:
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There are a some interesting debates out there about hypertrophy vs hyperplasia in athletes particularly studies looking at fibre density in bodybuilders vs joe average.
http://becomewarriorstrong.wordpress.com/2012/04/01/hyperplasia-vs-hypertrophy/ (http://becomewarriorstrong.wordpress.com/2012/04/01/hyperplasia-vs-hypertrophy/)
What I'm not sure about is whether specific hypertrophy training will make for a better climber and also that the gains seen from campusing or repeaters as described are really related to hypertrophy or more central / peripheral nervous system neuro muscular adaptation with the side effect of getting improved muscle tone along the way? Clearly some muscle shape and size changes occur but training specifically for muscle size gains I'm not sure? :shrug:
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I suppose it could be more of a neurological gain through increased innervation of muscle tissue due to more synatpic connections or increased release of Ca2+ from the sacroplasmic recticulum. Or on the other hand, it could be through changes in synatic strength in the basal ganglia/cerrebellum which could be indicative of improved motor skills for that particular task i.e. campussing.
Back to mitochondrial density, i know from my field of neuroscience that mitochondria are motile in synapses and are trafficked to pre-synapses during periods of high stimulation. I wonder if this is the case in terms of muscle physiology and during periods of duress?
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It's a bit beyond my understanding, but I'd imagine if mitochondria a mobile units of energy it would make sense to have more of them where they're needed most?
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I don't need a weatherman to tell me which way the wind blows.
There's a lot of fancy words coming out here when all people need to know is campussing or finger boarding will not give you big forearms
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Big forearms make you climb better though don't they? We can take that as a fact at least.
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I don't need a weatherman to tell me which way the wind blows.
There's a lot of fancy words coming out here when all people need to know is campussing or finger boarding will not give you big forearms
Does pumping ass make your dick bigger conka?
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:D great quote Dylo
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Does pumping ass make your dick bigger conka?
Not to my knowledge but it makes it look bigger, which sometimes is all you need
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I've obviously got the answer cos my forearms are massive.....payment via paypal please
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I've obviously got the answer cos my forearms are massive
The answer is:
(http://images.elephantjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/popeye1.jpg)
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why would you want big forearms?
I've got big forearms and they're fucking useless.
Canoeing, thats what you want to do. Everyday as well
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Shirley, big forearms are good for climbing.
(http://collarandelbow.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/shirley-crabtree-300x269.jpg)
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I don't need a weatherman to tell me which way the wind blows.
There's a lot of fancy words coming out here when all people need to know is campussing or finger boarding will not give you big forearms
the only reply this thread needs
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As others have said, I don't understand why you want to train hypertophy.
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As others have said, I don't understand why you want to train hypertophy.
Bigger muscles, all other things being equal, are stronger muscles?
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Yes, I can understanda that. But why would a climber target hypertrophy with the possible spinoff in strength, rather than target strength with a possible spinoff in size?
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timing and efficiency. Classic strength training engages in hypertrphy to build muscle size, then changes focus to max strength to adapt that newly built muscle.
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:lets_do_it_wild:I seriously doubt that any climber would take that approach. It surely works with other disciplines, but forearms hypertrophy and climbing grades do not relate.
I think that any time spent training for forearms hypertrophy would be better spent training finger strength over different prehensions.
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I generally agree that there are better means of improving for 99% of people. I do repeaters for short stints of strength endurance rather than hypertrophy, and even then only rarely. I never campus for hypertrophy, I do it only rarely to increase contact strength and explosive pull strength.
I seriously doubt that any climber would take that approach. It surely works with other disciplines, but forearms hypertrophy and climbing grades do not relate.
Not so, the concept of hypertrophy is widely "used" by climbers and trainers and it's good to understand what it is and why you'd use it. Whether they should be doing it is rarely ever asked or understood by many. The question for this topic was:
I'm planning a hypertrophy phase and was wondering if it was possible to train forarm hypertrophy on a campus board?
high intensity campus ladder w. feet with 1 min reps? other possibilities?
I know repeaters on a hangboard is good tool for hypertrophy, but i also know ill get bored with this compared to done some type of exercises on a campus board
So to answer the main question - yes.
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I personally do not want "bigger" forearms either, but I believe hypertrophy does work for climbing. What you are discussing does not appear to be hypertrophy in my eyes.
One of the biggest advocates of hypertrophic training is Magnus Midtbo.
I remember he did an interesting interview a while back...here it is http://rockclimbinguk.co.uk/magnus-midtbo-on-climbing-training/ (http://rockclimbinguk.co.uk/magnus-midtbo-on-climbing-training/) .
This is obviously something that works for him and may not work for you in the same way, but the principle is right. Put the muscle on...traing specifically and then the relevant mass will remain.
But, as Tom said - aerobic training and an increase in CV will be necessary if you want to avoid heavy useless arms!
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But, as Tom said - aerobic training and an increase in CV will be necessary if you want to avoid heavy useless arms!
He didn't say that - especially the CV bit.
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:geek: Isn't it just the case that lots of stuff has been posted in reponse to a vague initial post that doesn't even specify what goal is being trained for, other than 'hypotrophy'. The principles of training are everything you need: specifity, overload, reversability, recovery, adaptation. Interpret the principles in whatever language you prefer and if someone else's terms don't resonate ignore them.
When broken down into its constituent parts, what are the most easily-identifiable elements in the desired climbing goal, and which are you worst at? How are you going to train them - it won't be nice, because you're not good at it.
And not the theoretically most efficient way either, but the way you can sustain, for whichever reasons make sense to your circumstances.
If the goal is just to get bigger forearms - which I doubt, than freeweights would obv be more effective than climbing training.
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Hi Shark - I guess he didn't directly, he was agreeing with what Alex said "a good system of aerobic capacity work will go some way towards helping with this".
I know he didn't mention cardio, I was adding this myself - so that he actually gets use out of his big, heavy arms.
But, it depends on what his actual goal is...like Petejh just said.
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wow, really hit a hot topic there.. and yes it was a bit of a weak post and i have forgotten to specify my goals..
I actually thought that "classic" periodization of first a hypertrophy phase followed by max recruit phase was more accepted in the climbing community :D .
This fall i have been doing a lot of high intensity bouldering/campussing and general strength strength training and have seen quite a bit of result, but have also felt that the gains have been diminishing for some time.
I mainly boulder on plastic as i live in denmark, but when i go on rock it is rope climbing. im going to el chorro in the end of january and have therefore started a PE phase.
After this trip i want to start a new periodization cycle and is therefore planning how i could get some hypertrophy done i a fun way.
Im quite a weak boulder lacking brute strength and power. I mostly want to develop my bouldering strength and power because that is what i do most + I feel that the strength gains are quite easily transfered to the rope climbing.
If hypertrophy + max recrut is not the way what is then ? Im open to ideas?
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I know he didn't mention cardio, I was adding this myself - so that he actually gets use out of his big, heavy arms.
Are you talking about cardio as in running, cycling, or are you referring to some climbing training?
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I actually thought that "classic" periodization of first a hypertrophy phase followed by max recruit phase was more accepted in the climbing community :D .
The idea is widely talked about as being used, but I think most people are actually benefiting from the strength endurance aspect rather than the muscle building. They're preparing their body for the Max recruitment cycle so they get more out of that cycle. I've never heard of any study, or individual measuring their muscle mass/size before and after to see if the hypertrophy worked.... The only reason I care about this is if I am trying to translate findings from other studies/fields into climbing related activities.
Im quite a weak boulder lacking brute strength and power. I mostly want to develop my bouldering strength and power because that is what i do most + I feel that the strength gains are quite easily transfered to the rope climbing.
If hypertrophy + max recrut is not the way what is then ? Im open to ideas?
That's a good question. I think the training concepts work in general, the word "hypertrophy" is just wrong.
You say you are a "weak" boulderer, but in what way? fingers, arm, core, etc. These all play a role in dynamic movement and power. I have relatively weak arms, but my explosive strength is very good as long as I have some type of foot. Where and why do you fail? Most people have distinct weaknesses and have a hard time recognizing them. We become very used to the local styles and often get shutdown when we find something different exposing a big glaring weakness :)
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wow, really hit a hot topic there.. and yes it was a bit of a weak post and i have forgotten to specify my goals..
I actually thought that "classic" periodization of first a hypertrophy phase followed by max recruit phase was more accepted in the climbing community :D .
This fall i have been doing a lot of high intensity bouldering/campussing and general strength strength training and have seen quite a bit of result, but have also felt that the gains have been diminishing for some time.
I mainly boulder on plastic as i live in denmark, but when i go on rock it is rope climbing. im going to el chorro in the end of january and have therefore started a PE phase.
After this trip i want to start a new periodization cycle and is therefore planning how i could get some hypertrophy done i a fun way.
Im quite a weak boulder lacking brute strength and power. I mostly want to develop my bouldering strength and power because that is what i do most + I feel that the strength gains are quite easily transfered to the rope climbing.
If hypertrophy + max recrut is not the way what is then ? Im open to ideas?
you need to build strength NOT muscle
building muscle will fuck your climbing,i put on a bit of weight from doing weights and im wank on the rock now (never was that good before some ass picks me up on it)
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I'll be surprised if anyone manages to gain large amounts of weight through repeaters, long duration hangs or ancap workouts. We aint talking weights here.
There seem to be a few questions, which are basically all subquestions on 'what's the best way to get strong, and ideally strong in a way highly useful for routes'.
1) Do we want to do hypertrophy followed by recruitment (climbing specific muscles here, especially flexors)
2) If so, how best to do it - do strength gains from ancap relate to this? Long duration hangs? Repeaters?
3) If not, why not, and what are we going to do to get strong instead.
I don't have the answers to the above, I don't know enough about the physiology of getting strong, but suffice to say if you want sensible answers you can ignore anything Dense says.
I think that any time spent training for forearms hypertrophy would be better spent training finger strength over different prehensions.
I don't see why they would necessarily be mutually exclusive, as far as I can tell doing 25-30s hangs on different grips is aimed at achieving the later by doing the former.
It does, however, remind me of something Dave Mac wrote when asked about repeaters and hypertrophy: http://onlineclimbingcoach.blogspot.co.uk/2010/02/fingerboarding-timings.html (http://onlineclimbingcoach.blogspot.co.uk/2010/02/fingerboarding-timings.html) - see the comments. Unfortunately he doesn't answer all the questions, but he seems to think that hard hangs will work to hypertrophy the relevant muscles when used over a long time.
He also had this to say on ukc:
Me > But surey you can't endlessly recruit? At some point you've surely got to get some big, bad forearms so you've got some more muscle there to then work on recruiting (or have surgery to modify your fingers to be like however the hell Ondra's are put together).....
DM: > Muscular recruitment is more complicated than just firing more fibres. The term includes the ability of the muscle to better synchronise and time the firing as well as activate the most reluctant fibres. So there is a lot of scope to improve it over time. And hypertrophy doesn't work quite like you suggest either (in an intensity band). It's rate is influenced by intensity, but it occurs when the muscle is stimulated with high force contractions over a LONG time, like years of steady work.
An extra thought: the thing with recruitment is that presumably it's not the type of strength that will make you get less pumped by submaximal moves? E.g. If I can recruit 80% of my fibres, and I up that to 90% by training it (let's assume no other adaptations take place for the sake of argument), I don't see how that makes a difference to how hard I find 10 moves at 70%, or how fucked I get by 15 moves at 65% or whatever. So, as a route climber, what I really want the most is presumably more fibres, or better ability to do work with my fibres thus requiring fewer for the same force output, or simply stronger connective tissue? And how are these aspects best trained? Or is there so much crossover between 5s or 10s or 30s work that we don't need to worry?
Any thoughts Tom? Or Serpico? Or Stu? Or Carlisle?
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Absolute fantastic, gulmark wanted to get bigger forearms by training repeaters or campussing. I said this couldn't be done. Obviously it can be done most things can but it can't be done in a realistic way. So the guy wants bigger forearms and now you've gone and brought Dave Mac into it, a man so tiny that I nearly stood on him at the wall. Stu, a man so tiny that I nearly stand on him every time I see him. Don't know serpico. Dan, a man so thin now they've started calling Bowie the fat white duke! Toms by far the biggest of this bunch, and he just looks like a normal guy, who I'll let off cos he's gotta drag a bit of muscle up with him.
So what I'm gonna do next is start a thread about how I slim down and get stamina and give people insights into this by quoting kook, who's huge. German heiko, who makes kook look tiny. Fuck it may as well get polish Dave in on it as well since he's a secret big bastard. What you've effectively done abarro is make your own question up and answered it yourself. We'll done, you've passed.
Oh and for the record Magnus is tiny as well, he just packs on muscle.
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Like I said, ignore anything Dense says :ras:
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Why not search all the sports science literature (http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?hl=en&q=training+muscle+hypertrophy) for scientific evidence? :shrug:
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Why not search all the sports science literature (http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?hl=en&q=training+muscle+hypertrophy) for scientific evidence? :shrug:
I think there are a couple of things that need disentangling. The first thing is that the finger strength we are are interested in is isometric finger strength and as this is irrelevant for all other sports the studies are limited. Then you have to distinguish between isometric max strength and intermittent isometric finger strength endurance which are both hugely important to climbing performance. This is further complicated by inequalities in performance on different grip types ie crimps, slopers, pinches.
Observably there are many climbers who have relatively skinny forearms but mutant max finger bouldering strength even factoring in their body mass. This leads me to believe that hypertrophy isnt that important for this type of strength so when Stu says you need to do a period of hypertrophy to provide a base to get stronger (ie make these bigger muscles recruit better) it doesn't ring true with me notwithstanding that repeaters as Dense says seems an unlikely way to stimulate hypertrophy in the first place. I suspect forearm size is more important for finger endurance and recovery.
It would be good to have a study that compared forearm size (circumference at the widest point) relative to body mass and compared standardised performance on max hangs and intermittent endurance to look for correlations but as we know our personal performance varies on all these things throughout the year.
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Or you could just look around you and check if you're being burned off by folk with big forearms. No, me neither.
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We aint talking weights here.
I think that any time spent training for forearms hypertrophy would be better spent training finger strength over different prehensions.
achieving the later by doing the former
That's exactly what I meant. I agree with Alex here.
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Or you could just look around you and check if you're being burned off by folk with big forearms. No, me neither.
<cough> Body Machine <cough> ;)
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A more specific search of Google Scholar (http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?q=climbing+muscle+hypertrophy+isometric+finger+strength)....
Anthropometric and strength characteristics of world-class boulderers
ML Michailov, LV Mladenov, VR Schöffl - Medicina Sportiva, 2009 - Versita
Dynamic eccentric-concentric strength training of the finger flexors to improve rock climbing performance
A Schweizer, A Schneider, K Goehner - Isokinetics and exercise science, 2007 - IOS Press
Electrical and mechanical response of finger flexor muscles during voluntary isometric contractions in elite rock-climbers
F Esposito, E Limonta, E Cè, M Gobbo… - European journal of …, 2009 - Springer
Physiological determinants of climbing-specific finger endurance and sport rock climbing performance
D MacLeod, DL Sutherland, L Buntin… - Journal of sports …, 2007 - Taylor & Francis
...and so on.
I'm sure there are perfectly valid critiques (most will be small sample sizes in specific sub-groups) and aspects that these don't cover (but then science is a gradual process), but there appears to be at least some scientific work and literature out there. Someone with the time and inclination could perhaps digest it all and write a review article for UKB on the wiki (it would at the very least serve as a good reference to point people to when these threads recur).
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I'm sure there are perfectly valid critiques (most will be small sample sizes in specific sub-groups) and aspects that these don't cover (but then science is a gradual process), but there appears to be at least some scientific work and literature out there. Someone with the time and inclination could perhaps digest it all and write a review article for UKB on the wiki (it would at the very least serve as a good reference to point people to when these threads recur).
I volunteer Alex
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Or you could just look around you and check if you're being burned off by folk with big forearms. No, me neither.
<cough> Body Machine <cough> ;)
And who's the massive forearmed bastard who burnt me off on that? I just saw skinny guys, mostly tall.
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Or you could just look around you and check if you're being burned off by folk with big forearms. No, me neither.
<cough> Body Machine <cough> ;)
And who's the massive forearmed bastard who burnt me off on that? I just saw skinny guys, mostly tall.
Maybe big forearms aren't even that useful for endurance then
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I've obviously got the answer cos my forearms are massive.....
so are Alan Titchmarsh's
is this because you both like handling other people's plumbs?
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Experimented with some barbell finger rolls after my deadlifting tonight. Definitely worthwhile. Has anyone got opinions on whether a pronate or supinate grip is best (palms in or out)?
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I volunteer Alex
Looked at a few papers on google but Shef Uni don't have access to most of them - you need someone at a uni that does sports science, and is used to looking through papers.
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To reply to the original question:
This ~8-10 rep up/down campus doubles workout seems like it could be adjusted to be in the ball park for the right duration to be a HYP workout for the forearms, while being fast-twitch/bouldering specific. It also has the advantage of being straightfoward to track improvement. Not a beginner routine though.
http://mountainproject.com/v/campus-video-power-training-that-doesnt-hurtcause-injury-/107251235#a_107254141 (http://mountainproject.com/v/campus-video-power-training-that-doesnt-hurtcause-injury-/107251235#a_107254141)
player.vimeo.com/video/27422533?title=0&byline=0&portrait=0 (http://player.vimeo.com/video/27422533?title=0&byline=0&portrait=0)
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looks like a good training routine to permanently fuck your elbows