UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: blur on November 16, 2006, 09:38:44 am
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I've noticed how in the winter months my training, goes a bit off. So can anyone tell me what an average week is like for them, training wise? Do you follow a certain pattern or cut out certain foods to help?
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Training logs? all my logs are the real thing...
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Hi,
im currently trying
mon rest
Tue bouldering
wed bouldering power endurance
thur routes
Fri rest
sat outdoor projecting/wet option indoor bouldering
Sun outdoor projecting/wet option indoor bouldering/fingerboard
Cheers
Tim
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Mon - Bouldering
Tues - Bouldering plus one hour of skipping
Wed - Bouldering
Thu - Bouldering plus one hour of skipping
Fri - Bouldering plus 5 hours of drinking
Sat - Bouldering plus drug-taking and 6 hours of twitching like a spastic to grinding beats
Sun - Bouldering plus one hour of skipping
Hope this helps.
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Presume some jesting there mate? :-\
My tendons currently feel like they will explode if i do any more than 4 days hard bouldering a week.
Cheers
Tim
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Starting next week, my plan is...
Mond-Frid - Lunchtime session at Climbingworks
Sat & Sun - Hit the grit. Try not to break knuckles.
Day 8 - Rest
Not many people know about the eighth day. It pops up once a week, hidden between the normal days. I call it Octoday.
Eighth - what a strange word. Just look at it. Only the last two letters make any sense.
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Jesting? Indeed, I lied about the drinking. And I like to leave at least one day free to formulate strategies on the destruction of Homo rapiens.
Currently doing the indoor bouldering thing quite a lot, but then, never routes (haven't tied on for 7 years). Shamra was right, just a little every day. Long warm ups/downs. Good rest between problems. Lots of water. A bit of arnika on the biceps afterwards. But the dancing is crucial.
Try glucosamine sulphate for those tendons.
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Mon - Bouldering
Tues - Bouldering plus one hour of skipping
Wed - Bouldering
Thu - Bouldering plus one hour of skipping
Fri - Bouldering plus 5 hours of drinking
Sat - Bouldering plus drug-taking and 6 hours of twitching like a spastic to grinding beats
Sun - Bouldering plus one hour of skipping
Hope this helps.
i suggest you need to do more twitching else you're likely to end up muscular inbalances.
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Presume some jesting there mate? :-\
My tendons currently feel like they will explode if i do any more than 4 days hard bouldering a week.
Cheers
Tim
The more you climb, the fitter you will get, and the less broken you will feel on consecutive days. Your body just adapts. Like Houdini said, the key is quality not quantity - do an hour or so, then stop before you start feeling tired, and you'll be able to climb ache-free the next day. After a while you'll be able to do longer and longer sessions for 5 or 6 days in a row.
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i suggest you need to do more twitching else you're likely to end up muscular inbalances.
I do plenty of stretching and general floor gym exercises. My posture is pretty good at time of writing.
Trigger points? I get a heavier man to break those down with his thumbs.
But you're right about the twitching. Once I'm on a roll, I find even two days off sends me backwards.
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Presume some jesting there mate? :-\
My tendons currently feel like they will explode if i do any more than 4 days hard bouldering a week.
Cheers
Tim
The more you climb, the fitter you will get, and the less broken you will feel on consecutive days. Your body just adapts. Like Houdini said, the key is quality not quantity - do an hour or so, then stop before you start feeling tired, and you'll be able to climb ache-free the next day. After a while you'll be able to do longer and longer sessions for 5 or 6 days in a row.
aye already climb a lot but i mean bouldering that many days. Its more intense. If you add a day routing here and there it is less intense on your tendons i feel. Like the idea a bout a little each day but every day. May give that a try.
Cheers
Tim
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???
Outside at the weekend weather permitting. :lol:
Dicking around in the office coffee room on lintels and trimmings during the week.
Looking to cut down.
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aye already climb a lot but i mean bouldering that many days.
So do I. When you first start doing it, you will ache, but stick with it and your body will soon adapt. Be sensible though - stick to short sessions or you risk injuring something.
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hmmm I'm dubious, you simply cant be training as effectively after an extended period as you were at the start, imo its necessary to rest much more than your post suggests. Sometimes I can still feel tues's session on a thursday!
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hmmm I'm dubious, you simply cant be training as effectively after an extended period as you were at the start, imo its necessary to rest much more than your post suggests.
Well, quite possibly. I'm not just going on my own instinct though, I'm copying others who climb much harder than me. My training this summer consisted mostly of the cemetery park boulder, which is perhaps not the same as cranking on a 45 deg. woody. But still, after several days on I found I was still improving, and managing problems that I previously found impossible. Perhaps this is also a lot to do with refining the engrams, and just getting things more wired, but it seemed to work.
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Hi,
well that's my intention this winter anyway to increase the power and strength training. But i have found in the past that the more power based activities you do (rather than endurance) the more likely you are to injure yourself. Certainly appears to be the score in my own experience. Definately gonna keep one session as routes to keep the stamina going (im a sportclimber/boulderer rather than a boulderer/sportclimber so endurance is also important to me :))
cheers
Tim
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Since the summer I've been training a lot more than previously: An average of 6 days (2-3hr sessions) per week rather than 4. It has definatly given me a kick up the jacksie and I've improved rapidly. Whether this is just through shock factor etc I'm not sure - but I'm sticking to it for now. I often find that my best session of the week is on day 3/4 etc.
Having said that Paul's training plan is obviously working for him!
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It depends what you mean by an extended period. If you mean one long session than I'd agree, but daily short sessions are the norm in other sports. I got good results a few years ago bouldering every day, but each session was really short: warm up, 30-40mins intense bouldering (with good rest between problems), warm down. I was stopping well short of fatigue, but when you add up the number of problems at my target grade it was higher than if i'd done fewer, but longer sessions.
In the summer I allways take July and August off, and I'll climb 3 days on 1 day off, then 2 days on 1 day on. On the last day on I train at home on my board, after I've been to the crag. Pretty well all of my hardest redpoints this year and last were done first day back on, even though I still felt sore from the training session, I also felt really strong.
It usally takes me about 3 weeks to adapt this amount of volume.
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When you guys talk about adapting to a higher or more intense workload, are you saying getting less stiff or feeling less tired in a muscular manner? Presumably if the more intense training is making the fingers feel sore this is not something to work through?
I have no problems pushing myself in a muscular pain day after day type manner but feel i need to know if any finger tendon (tenderness) is part of the game or a sign to back off?
Cheers
tim
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My finger tendons ached like hell after the first few sessions on my new board, but after a week or so they got used to it.
When I say they ached - this was hard training ache as opposed to injury ache. Injury ache is a sign to back off. I had never really pulled on small holds before so it took a while to get used to it.
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position you're thumb over the a2 area of a finger and press. I have one finger on my right hand which feels tender when i press it. the other fingers are ok but this one is ok to climb on but feels like this when i press it. It's been like this for a few weeks, but no worse. repetative training ache? or sign of a tear. i.e.back off a bit?
Cheers
Tim
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Re:Soreness. It depends where the soreness is: Soreness in the fingers (ie: the joints) is a sign that you've probably done too much crimping during the session. Soreness deep in the belly of the forearm muscles (not elbows/tendons) is an indication that you've got your training right.
Tim, have you had that finger looked at? Sounds like you might have torn the pulley.
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Hi,
well that's my intention this winter anyway to increase the power and strength training. But i have found in the past that the more power based activities you do (rather than endurance) the more likely you are to injure yourself. Certainly appears to be the score in my own experience. Definately gonna keep one session as routes to keep the stamina going (im a sportclimber/boulderer rather than a boulderer/sportclimber so endurance is also important to me :))
cheers
Tim
I also sport climb in summer, but don't do any route training whatsoever in winter, nor for that matter any bouldering once the route season starts. I have a yearly cycle that seems to work fine. In winter I boulder (pretty much always twice indoors midweek and twice outdoor at the weekend). Toward the end of the bouldering season I'll work on longer problems to raise endurance a little, then switch to short power routes. Throughout the route season my power will naturally drop off as I do no bouldering, but this coincides with naturally increasing stamina from doing gradually more enduro routes. By the latter half of the season I can usually do stamina stuff at the top end of my grade.
It never seems to take long to regain lost stamina / power levels from previous season so I see no point in doing boring maintenance training of either when my focus has switched over. For me indoor routeing in winter/bouldering in summer would seem like a waste of effort that was slowing my progress. It also means my body gets a rest of sorts from both types of climbing without ever having to take weeks/months off.
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position you're thumb over the a2 area of a finger and press. I have one finger on my right hand which feels tender when i press it. the other fingers are ok but this one is ok to climb on but feels like this when i press it. It's been like this for a few weeks, but no worse. repetative training ache? or sign of a tear. i.e.back off a bit?
Cheers
Tim
Tape will help i.e. no pain from pulley whilst crimping- but any doctor/sensible climber would probably tell you to have time off.
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Hi,
no mate i havn't. It's basically in the (A2) fattest belly of the finger i feel it. I routed last night...and if i push with the flat side of my thumb i feel no pain. however if i probe with some pressure and the tip of my thumb it hurts. I normally (not sure if this is correct or not) do this massage on the A2 area of my fingers almost as a second nature thing after an A2 tear i had last year on the opposite hand. I found some scar tissue there and was doing the pressure to try and massage it out.
Not been to see anyone as didn't (still not sure) if it was an actual problem as it hasn't effected climbing at all sofar. I.e. no actual tweaking/pain whilst climbing. I am however acutely aware that it is the main finger taking the load when i undercut the pocket on Raindogs (4th bolt). Especially when my sequence involves baring down with this hand whilst lifting my opposite foot to a higher foot position.
Cheers
Tim
p.s. so what rule of thumb would you use to determine whether or not to see a physio or not, for such (i currently believe) vague areas of injury verses overuse?
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I use the shouldavegoneweeksago rule. ie: when it's obvious that it's not going to clear up on it's own, and that it's in fact got worse.
If in doubt, get it checked out.
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Would a specialist be able to do anything about it, rather than just reccomend time off?
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Would a specialist be able to do anything about it, rather than just reccomend time off?
You'd hopefully get an accurate diagnosis, so you'll at least know what you're dealing with and what the most appropriate treatment is eg; transverse frictions, ibuprofen, stretching, ultra sound, rest. Some of those might make the situation worse depending on what you've actually done.
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Can you recommend any physio's in particular who know about fingers? reckon i could get work's BUPA to cover it? :-\
cheers
Tim
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I have a very strict and scientific training schedule:
Climb routes outdoors whenever possible.
Climb routes or bouldering indoors when the weather's crap, depending on what I feel like.
Rest in between.
...it's hardcore...
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i have a 50+ hr job, family and all the trappings of late 30s life - I eat too much, too well, have little self control with alcohol and yet in 12weeks since re-starting climbing i'm back on and making progress on my old bouldering nemesis(s)....
12 weeks from nothing: i wasnt unfit though, my cardio fitness is pretty good at the mo.
Fatdoc's steps to climbing rehabilitation: DONT DIET
- build a very small very easy board, that your 5 year old son can just climb.... travel around the board using strict time intervals.
- every 2 weeks buy some more holds and make the board harder and vaguely interesting.
- extend the board out into the roof of the garage -old school cellar stylee.
- buy a moon fingerboard, despite the fact you cant hang off any of the crimps.
Get a schedule together:
mon: playstation night in
tues: boards session, specific set of pyrimidal problems, repeat set twice. then fingerboard session... whole thing no more than 90 mins... you have to motor! OR get forced to the Edge by mates...
wed: cardio (XC mtb)
thurs: now...... its climbingworks, before it was titing about on the board trying to find some harder moves
fri: get pissed
sat / sun: get pissed or climb on grit (bouldering only) as family and work allow.
the sole intention of the above was to get fit enough to then train properly (fingerboard, locks, campus) and I'm now able to do just that.
So, even after 4 years off you can get back really quite fast... i thought it was gonna take 6 months! and dont get me wrong here, font 7a / + only at the mo..nothing startling. but it does seem to show that if yr cardio fit the relearning / recruitment and finger strength can come back.
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, just a little every day. Long warm ups/downs. Good rest between problems.
so you warm up, and then warm down?
and as for the fingerboard thing, i find i can half crimp the small holds on the moon fingerboard, but can't full crimp them, how does that work?
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Can you recommend any physio's in particular who know about fingers? reckon i could get work's BUPA to cover it? :-\
Have you mentioned it to Steve. He is pretty good at diagnosing that kind of stuff. Once diagnosed, you can then decide on best action to getting it fixed. As serpico said.
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, just a little every day. Long warm ups/downs. Good rest between problems.
so you warm up, and then warm down?
and as for the fingerboard thing, i find i can half crimp the small holds on the moon fingerboard, but can't full crimp them, how does that work?
i'm now half crimping the holds, and i can use all the holds ;D
just!
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are you typing with your toes?
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Can you recommend any physio's in particular who know about fingers? reckon i could get work's BUPA to cover it? :-\
Have you mentioned it to Steve. He is pretty good at diagnosing that kind of stuff. Once diagnosed, you can then decide on best action to getting it fixed. As serpico said.
To be honest mate i was more interested in the hypothetical how do you know when hard training is hurting good 8)rather than hurting bad :thumbsdown:. (With regards to fingers that is).
(Ste was up at the weekend incidentally with a tweaked finger of his own.) I think some intense ibuprofen/ice treatment/message is possibly best and a couple of weeks swapping to indoor routes based training rather than indoor bouldering or power based training.
Cheers
tim
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now im having some kind of rest.
tue hard session on plastic, thur real bouldering, trying to stay fit and nurse a finger.
friday big comp, due to shitty weather coming (surfs up).
then its work time again til the end of 2006.
three sessions per week, one fingerboard, one plastic, one campus (yes yeah i know my rungs are short, thats why i stripped them down to half the width)
last session was campusing, just a little power recall:
3-1-7 (start both hands on 3 at 90°, drop one down on 1, and then lunge with same hand as high as you can) 4 sets each arm, 5' rest.
1-4-7 with 4kg on, 4 sets each arm, 5' rest.
ice.
the guru e-mailed next weeks' schedule, and im scared.
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Mon-Board
Tues-Bored
Wed-Board
Thur-Board
Fri-Board then Beer
Sat-Dream about climbing outside.
Sun-Board then dreaming up this coming years country to run off to.
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i've had my fair share of A2 injuries and niggles and one thing ive learned is rest is best (oooh thats cheesy). You have to be ridiculously disciplined in order to not aggrivate A2 injuries.
The question is how do you know if its hurting good or hurting bad? Why is it hurting at all? Stop strong, it seriously works, maybe you should ache a bit the next day but to be honest I only ever get really intense muscle soreness doing bench press after a while off.
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The question is how do you know if its hurting good or hurting bad? Why is it hurting at all? Stop strong, it seriously works, maybe you should ache a bit the next day but to be honest I only ever get really intense muscle soreness doing bench press after a while off.
Aye but my query was strictly in relation to tendon/connective tissue soreness rather than muscle soreness. Muscle soreness is always good. and I spent enough time weight training before i started climbing to know my bodies response to such stimulus and how much it can handle . :)
So how much do would you rest after establishing you have a A2 niggle. i.e. not stopping you from climbing and no obvious pain whilst climbing. But sore afterwards when applying pressure to said finger's a2 region.
Cheers
Tim
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I had a very similar niggle to the one you described recently, I stopped long enough for any sign of pain to go away and then started back at a much lower intensity for the same amount of time, it sorted itself out.
With regards tendon's and connective tissue soreness I dont think any is good! maybe slightly stiff fingers the day after, therefore showing you've worked them but never actual discomfort.
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so today i start back some training.
in the evening itll be fingerboard: static-dinamic pull-ups. you pull, lock at 90° for 3 seconds, then complete the pull-up. you come downa using a step (this is really a genius tip: avoiding the negative has helped me alot in staying injury free).
3 max reps, 6 sets, 5 minutes rest.
i also started taking glucosamine-condroitine pills twice a day.
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Fatdoc's steps to climbing rehabilitation: DONT EAT CHESTNUTS
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don't amuse me so ;D
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Fatdoc's steps to climbing rehabilitation: DONT EAT CHESTNUTS
now: i have many vices, and that one has never got in the way of ANYTHING, try it - you'll not be disappointed - in any way shape or form! ;D ;D ;D :o
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yesterday i completely wasted a trip to the gym, that means around 15 euros of petrol, 150 km drive, 6 euros entry.
i was very tired from monday training, a bit concerned about my finger and in general unable to pull.
plus, the new setting politics after the comp seem to have raised the bar. like to the athmosphere.
fuck.
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static-dinamic pull-ups. you pull, lock at 90° for 3 seconds, then complete the pull-up. you come downa using a step (this is really a genius tip: avoiding the negative has helped me alot in staying injury free).
3 max reps, 6 sets, 5 minutes rest.
like these one nibs... :great:
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yes i like them too even if im currently doing more dinamic pulls, not to strain elbows in the lock off.
you would also like tomorrow schedule for campusing:
A)
start with one hand on 1 and lock off one armed 4 secs
match with left on 1, then throw up either at the highest rung (also just touching) or at an intermediate, then at the highest.
three times per arm alternated.
4 sets, 4 mins rest.
B)
both hands on 1
go to 3 (or more) with left and lock off for 4 secs.
then match with right hand and immediately go again with right as high as you can
twice per arm, 4 sets, 4 mins rest.
enjoy.
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you guys seem to do a lot of training :shrug: Makes me feel a bit useless
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as if... you secret trainer you....
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you guys seem to do a lot of training. Makes me feel a bit useless
Those who can, climb. Those who can't, train.
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Those who can, climb. Those who can't, train.
Too right.
I'm off to the wall tonight. :great:
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you guys seem to do a lot of training :shrug: Makes me feel a bit useless
oooh..im sure a month ago you were training as much as me....or maybe actually secretly coveting the 2nd ascent of basic doyle? ::)
Those who can, climb. Those who can't, train.
It seems from the last few post ive read you seem to have major issues with anything training/power/school related...say it isnt so? :o
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James spends half his life deadhanging, and Adam disdains training because if he did train he wouldn't be able to play the "raw talent" card with its full weight. Plus he can't get in the school despite repeated degrading and borderline pr0nographic pleas to Ben Moon. Allegedly.
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It seems from the last few post ive read you seem to have major issues with anything training/power/school related...say it isnt so? :o
Sad as it is Paul you've hit the nail on the head there. Johnny does his training in the Porter Cottage.
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What is the embarrassment in training? It is really something I struggle to understand. Now this is not a personal attack, more of an example, but im pretty sure people like James and Ryan, Ste Mac etc, in their own way train as much as anyone ( like I said, not a personal attack, feel free to correct me). However, the difference is they go on to play a secretive card as if to offer a scapegoat if they fail on something. Why not just be proud of the effort you have put in?
I just cannot understand why people would be ashamed to admit that they train, that they want to do well in something, that they want to succeed in their chosen activity, that they want to push themselves in something as opposed to doing nothing, being mediocre and knocking anyone and everyone that wishes to succeed. It’s a win win situation in my opinion. Could you imagine a society were no one worked hard with fear of being criticised?
It's only climbing where this takes place. Every other sport I have been involved in the participants take pride in the effort they put in and feel no shame whatsoever if their efforts do not pay off. Rather they learn why they did not obtain their personal goals, and make changes to prevent failure in the future- which in my opinion is a fundamental aspect to progression.
I blame it on insecurities and lack of self-discipline and motivation myself, accompanied with an activity that has a very peculiar society. I.e., when I climbed a lot, I had this reputation of working hideously hard, although, in reality I did nothing more than someone who wasn’t idle- compared with other sportsmen (footballers excluded) I was damn slack. However, rather than accepting that maybe I was more talented than most, the consensus was that I only did what I did because I trained, and my successes were obtainable for anyone who was willing to put in a few hours climbing. Making my achievements more of a commodity, that not many wanted.
As for Adam Long- pay no attention to his constant criticising of people who climb inside/ train. His naivety is his own worst enemy- maybe if he had a wider view of the world he would actually achieve the things he wants to do. Each to their own I suppose.
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Those who can, climb. Those who can't, train.
And those that can and train, can can :dance1:
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What is the embarrassment in training? I just cannot understand why people would be ashamed to admit that they train.
Take your word that you've met these kind of people - I've never met anyone that is coy on the subject. But I get your drift.
It reminds me of people that would rather be shit at cryptic crosswords (Oh I just don't understand... It's way above my head. etc..) than pick up a dictionary and thesaurus and work out exactly why you are shit and yes, just why it's above your head.
I see no shame in learning to be better at something and I've never seen a faultless climber, trainer or no.
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Amen to that Buoux. I've lost count of the number of climbers I've met who attempt to devalue other peoples achievements on the grounds that "Anyone who trains that much could do that"/"I can do that and I don't even train" etc etc.
What they fail to see is that it IS easy to do something well if you have the ability - It is getting the ability (whether through having the commitment or drive to train) or by climbing outside every waking hour that is the hard part.
I often don't like to admit how much I train to other climbers, but not because I'm embarrassed or ashamed, but because they might see me as some sort of cheat.
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I've no idea who you're hanging out with, cos I can't think of anyone with that take on things at all. Except perhaps JB who I suspect is partly playing up to his stereotype to get a rise.
I have met a few good climbers with persecution complexes though.
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I’m not sure exactly what point you are referring to, so correct me if i'm of the mark here. I have met a great deal of climbers who seem shy/ashamed/coy (delete as applicable) concerning the training they put in. Comments along the lines of; I haven't climbed for months, when in reality they’ve done nothing but; and I don't have the motivation to train like you, although they spend endless hours doing dead hanging, bouldering, campussing, running, climbing in the school etc etc and best of all; i could do that if i could be asked to train a little.
The only way I can perceive this attitude is that of an insecurity (by the way of clinging onto a scapegoat if their plans do not fully work out), or by being to ashamed to mention their efforts in fear of their reputation being blemished.
As for good climbers having persecution complexes- with the amount of cowardly tittle-tattle that goes on in tinsel town, I can fully understand why certain top climbers (who are usually in the firing line of endless defamation) would feel a little persecuted. The fact that I have been on both ends of this mindless behavior leaves me in a position to comment how pathetic certain groups of climbers are, which is a great shame really as climbing is such an enjoyable personal activity.
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My post was in reply to (woz) comment:
I've lost count of the number of climbers I've met who attempt to devalue other peoples achievements on the grounds that "Anyone who trains that much could do that"/"I can do that and I don't even train" etc etc.
Regards people professing not to train, I think a lot of it comes down to outlook and semantics, rather than a desire to appear effortlessly brilliant. Most goodish climbers I know climb on something, be it indoor or out, four or more times a week, some call some or all of this training, some don't. When does climbing become training and vica versa, unless you are doing something specific like campussing or weighted pulls it's often not obvious. Clearly most climbing is training in the sense that it serves to maintain or improve performance, but could you really call JB a secret trainer because he goes to Stanage 12 times a week? To an extent this question could be applied to climbers like James or Steve Mac, who seem to do well mostly by just going climbing a lot. What would Sharma say if you asked him how much he trains? So a climber climbs on average six times a week because he/she loves climbing and wants to improve, he/she has time to climb when they feel like it because they have quit work to climb, he/she climbs in a intuitively structured way i.e they don't climb when they are tired and go indoors when it rains, are they really training? In one sense yes in another no. There is certainly enough room for said climber to say in honesty that they just 'go climbing', don't train as such and improve by default.
As for good climbers having persecution complexes- with the amount of cowardly tittle-tattle that goes on in tinsel town, I can fully understand why certain top climbers (who are usually in the firing line of endless defamation) would feel a little persecuted. The fact that I have been on both ends of this mindless behavior leaves me in a position to comment how pathetic certain groups of climbers are, which is a great shame really as climbing is such an enjoyable personal activity.
I've no idea what they say in Hollywood, but what's it got to do with climbing :shrug:
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I do recognise the attitude Rich is talking about - I've probably been guilty myself in the past - and it is quite ingrained in British climbing culture. You only have to look at the contrasting reputations of Johnny as against say Ben amongst the general mass of British climbers to get a glimpse of it. One is regularly still proclaimed as a genius and the other as someone who got very strong. But I don't think this restricted to climbing, its something in wider British sporting (and general) culture - the cult of the gifted amateur is very strong here and failing with style widely admired.
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so just going climbing is not training.thats like lance armstrong claiming not to train."no i don't train i just ride my bike".
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Except perhaps JB who I suspect is partly playing up to his stereotype to get a rise.
'I suspect' - surely its f*ckin obvious? I only do it cos its so easy to get a rise - folk seem to take themselves very seriously, particularly those who train a lot. I guess it comes with the territory.
the cult of the gifted amateur is very strong here and failing with style widely admired.
Very true, and I think a lot of the top climbers are aware of this and play down their own training as a result. I think its also true, though, that in the UK the climbing public as a group are less impressed by the kind of climbing that responds most to training, ie top end sport climbing and bouldering. Having said that, when people talk about good climbers they invariably comment on how 'strong' they are as opposed to how 'good'.
For my own part, when I first moved to Sheffield as an impressionable youth I started meeting a lot of good climbers. It was soon obvious to me that the climbers who I really admired - the ones who could really move on rock - were almost without exception those who did very little structured training. The point was further hammered home by meeting plenty of very strong guys who really couldn't move on rock but were generally very focussed on training.
It seemed to me that getting too strong too early is actually a barrier to improving technique, and I've seen very little since to convince me otherwise. I think this works on two levels - firstly you set up a feedback cycle in your engrams whereby you learn that pulling harder is the only way to get up stuff. Secondly an ego thing soon (usually) kicks in also whereby, having scored a few big ticks on basic pulling problems, it is much harder to put time in on the lowly graded technical stuff that eludes you. I've certainly met a lot of Sheffield climbers in Font who work on the maxim - 'if you can't do it, try something harder.'
I actually made a conscious decision not to train at all so that to get better my technique would have to improve. For me at least I feel its been the right way. I've gained plenty of strength over the years just through climbing, with comparatively few injuries. My weak point now is almost certainly finger strength, training might improve it but actually I'm not that bothered any more.
Which brings me on to the other reason - probably the major factor - why I don't train. A big part of climbing for me is being outdoors, and often in beautiful places. Climbing is foremost for me a way of engaging more strongly with these places than I can through just walking. Over recent years photography has become another way of doing this. As such training isn't going to help me progress. Yes, its true I get more satisfaction from climbing well but this has far more to do with moving well than 'feeling strong' or crushing big grades.
His naivety is his own worst enemy- maybe if he had a wider view of the world he would actually achieve the things he wants to do.
I really can't see how you know me well enough to make such pronouncements. I'm not the one giving up climbing here. :shrug:
I can fully understand why certain top climbers (who are usually in the firing line of endless defamation) would feel a little persecuted.
This is patent nonsense. I don't know of any top climbers suffering endless defamation. Or do you mean they aren't getting the sponsorship/ support you think they deserve?
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It seemed to me that getting too strong too early is actually a barrier to improving technique, and I've seen very little since to convince me otherwise.
Good observation....I completely agree with this, its something you can't go back on either.
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I agree it's a good observation about the kids, but it arises because of several things I think:
They can't drive, getting to crags is generally a pain without one and more so if none of your friends can drive too, so they're reliant on others, generally their parents.
It's easier to go to the wall than the crag and less time consuming, especially for a parent who is going to just sit there and watch.
Weather's bad quite for 6 months of the year, especially if your driver won't set off if it's looking iffy.
A few/Most (?) young climbers will start at the wall now so it's part of their climbing.
These mean that they climb a lot indoors so get strong without getting the technique you get from climbing on rock. Suppose it depends if you want to be a technical wizard and get up every 7b+ with style, or train like mad and get up a basic pulling 8b.
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given that the thread on the new wall in sheffield is up 27 pages.i guess most people would like to train like mad and get up a basic 8b.
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given that the thread on the new wall in sheffield is up 27 pages, I guess most people like to talk about training and dream of climbing 8B.
;)
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Except perhaps JB who I suspect is partly playing up to his stereotype to get a rise.
'I suspect' - surely its f*ckin obvious? I only do it cos its so easy to get a rise - folk seem to take themselves very seriously, particularly those who train a lot. I guess it comes with the territory.
Johnny if you only use the internet to wind people up do it on cocktalk. Most folk on here take there climbing seriously and will get pissed off when you say that anyone who trains is automatically a shit climber. I understand where your coming from on a lot of your points and respect your personal reasons to climb. Why can't you do the same for those at the other end of the spectrum. I quickly realised in my career that i'm never going to be the most technical climber in the world, i just haven't got that natural ability. So from that point i concentrated on steeper climbing which involve more strength than technique (although steep climbing does demand good body positioning etc..) and it is from this type of climbing that i get my satisfaction. Whats wrong with that? I think there's enough room for everyone in our little climbing community and after all it would be boring if we were all into the same thing.
p.s. i only 'train' once a week at the moment, i just can't be arsed. I prefer to climb on rock.
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i like training. alot.
i like to feel powerful on problems.
i like to try things i dreamt about for years.
i know people who say they dont train but they climb on rock five days a week...so whats that?
i know people here in italy who say "you have to rely on your talent, everybody is capable of doing hard stuff after training". those people are often very talented, and they dont really need to train. i think theyre a bit lazy and envious or pissed that average climbers, with poor talent can do their stuff when trained. and i also think theyre a bit elitist.
DISCLAIMER: that is my impression from people i know here in italy, dunno about others.
and btw...waht else can you do after working all day? sit and watch tv?
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I climb four times a weak if my back problems allow.. is that training?
Oh and I climb on problems in my Woodie or at craggy cause the rock round here is non-existent
I have to wait for the hol's to get weekends on portland or a week or so up peakwards or over in font
so is my four times a week training or climbing?
also I go to the gym when I get time, is that training, or just keeping fit?
the whole training vs not is a bit daft, everyone has their own way of doing things
those blessed with sh#t hot rock on the doorstep climb outdoors a lot fair play lucky them, if you're a 7b climber then doing a circuit of 5's-6b's is training no?
some people campus and do weights, well I campus problems cause there's no board at craggy, some might call it climbing, others wouldn't; I used to do weights sometimes and will again when my back heals ups, that's more to keep fit than to help my climbing but of course it does...
what gets me is why are people arguing over it, seems they have something to prove, either "look how hard I train aren't I great" or "look at me, I don't train, aren't I great"
surely the whole point for the 99.9% of us that aren't sponsored pro's is that we love doing what we do, otherwise we wouldn't do it
If you love to campus and work on a system board then great, if it helps you get up harder "proper" (i.e. outdoor) problems then great; if it's all about the real rock and you don't get anything out of pulling on plastic (or wood, yes I've been reading the whole holds tread within the climbing works tread) then fine, don't do it.
Personally I love to climb, now if that's outdoors, in beautiful surroundings, on classic problems with history then sure that's special, but so's pulling plastic indoors with mates or challenging myself in the woodie.
Once your feet leave the ground and you're traveling (be it upwards or sideways) then you're climbing, simple
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i agree, and also think that rarely you hear people who train alot say to people who dont "why dont you train?!" i cant understand why people who dont want to train complain if you like to.
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...semantics...
Bingo! Training is a mindset not an activity.
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Johnny if you only use the internet to wind people up do it on cocktalk. Most folk on here take there climbing seriously
My apologies Chris for not taking the internet as seriously as you clearly do. I think the odd jibe is a little different form trolling on CT which is clearly not what I am involved in. I had no idea UKB was for serious climbing chat only , clearly I have been taking Bonjoy's cartoons the wrong way.
and will get pissed off when you say that anyone who trains is automatically a shit climber.
When have I ever said this? I have never said this because it is nonsense.
Likewise I've never dissed anyone just for training.
What I do find laughable are people for whom training becomes more important than climbing. Again its the same loop - get strong indoors, perform shit outdoors, get stronger indoors, no improvement outside. I don't see the point in this. Fair enough if you only want to climb indoors, but I don't see it as the same sport. There seem to be a lot of folk in Sheffield who have lost sight of what they are training for.
I also find The School clique pretty funny - there seems to be this attitude that performing well in The School is some kind of international benchmark that is an end in itself. I don't subscribe to this view.
What I find suprising though is how precious folk can be - this is only my opinion, and only worth as much as you to choose to value it. I quite enjoy folk taking the piss out of my approach to the sport, I'm certainly not precious about it, though I suppose I do 'take it seriously' in as much as I devote big chunks of my life to it.
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and will get pissed off when you say that anyone who trains is automatically a shit climber.
When have I ever said this? I have never said this because it is nonsense.
Those who climb can and those who can't train seems to me to be along those lines.
What I do find laughable are people for whom training becomes more important than climbing. Again its the same loop - get strong indoors, perform shit outdoors, get stronger indoors, no improvement outside. I don't see the point in this. Fair enough if you only want to climb indoors, but I don't see it as the same sport. There seem to be a lot of folk in Sheffield who have lost sight of what they are training for.
Agree with this. And agree that UKB isn't just serious climbing chat but the fact is you bang on the same drum so hard you're gonna need a new skin for it for xmas. If i went round jibing people for being weak in every other post (exageration i know) i'd expect a backlash.
I also find The School clique pretty funny - there seems to be this attitude that performing well in The School is some kind of international benchmark that is an end in itself. I don't subscribe to this view.
Me neither, if that were the case then Paul B would be the worlds greatest climber ;)
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I also find The School clique pretty funny - there seems to be this attitude that performing well in The School is some kind of international benchmark that is an end in itself. I don't subscribe to this view.
It may be perceived like this but I think really its more of a measure of where you are in terms of strength and power, you can tell if you have improved in those two areas easily from day to day, month to month or even year to year and hence can easily tell the progress of others, maybe this is what leads people to believe that performing up there is some kind of benchmark?
Are there that many people who have lost sight of their goals through training? I know of one who is definitely in the minority and his case is extreme, but thats it. I find it hard to believe that there are lots of people in Sheffield who have lost sight of what they are training for because if you don't have a goal where the hell does the motivation to train come from?
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I also find The School clique pretty funny - there seems to be this attitude that performing well in The School is some kind of international benchmark that is an end in itself. I don't subscribe to this view.
Are there that many people who have lost sight of their goals through training?
I think this is a myth Paul. Most school members only use the place in the winter when its too wet and windy to do ought else. In fact most school members are committed outdoor rock climbers who do it all (sport, bouldering, trad). I might even name a few, Jon Fullwood, Andy Cave, Rob Smith, Nic Sellars etc...............
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Those who can, climb. Those who can't, train
I quickly realised in my career that i'm never going to be the most technical climber in the world, i just haven't got that natural ability. So from that point i concentrated on steeper climbing which involve more strength than technique
So what's your beef again?
Seriously, though, it was meant to be a flippant joke and most have taken it as such. There is clearly a kernel of truth, though, as it has spawned two pages of 'debate'. I didn't put that much thought into it and the original that I paraphrased - 'Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach' is, I think, more offensive. Later tonight I expect to be lynched by a School member with a PGCE.
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I quickly realised in my career that i'm never going to be the most technical climber in the world, i just haven't got that natural ability. So from that point i concentrated on steeper climbing which involve more strength than technique
So what's your beef again?
No beef, i'm a chicken man. Was just stating where i'm coming from.
Fair does, i shall take your attitude towards training, power, the school etc.. with a big pinch of salt from now on. I was gonna say we could continue this conversation in the Porter Cottage but i won't be back there for a while. Have a good xmas Adam.
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It seems from the last few post ive read you seem to have major issues with anything training/power/school related...say it isnt so?
pay no attention to his constant criticising of people who climb inside/ train
I'll be honest these remarks did suprise me a bit. So much so, I've just re-read my last 150 posts to see when I made such repeated and constant criticisms. I'll be honest - they're not there. :shrug: So I'll put it down to writing in a slightly abrasive style on a touchy subject. My apologies.
My point is simply this: I meet far more people who would benefit from putting more time into their technique than into strength. This has been true ever since I've climbed in the Peak District - however people seem to not take this seriously. Perhaps it actually takes more dedication to get outside (especially in this current weather) enough to really improve your technique, than it does to get stronger indoors. Plus the bonus is you're actually climbing.
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My point is simply this: I meet far more people who would benefit from putting more time into their technique than into strength. This has been true ever since I've climbed in the Peak District - however people seem to not take this seriously. Perhaps it actually takes more dedication to get outside (especially in this current weather) enough to really improve your technique, than it does to get stronger indoors. Plus the bonus is you're actually climbing.
The thing is if you work, how the hell do you get out more often? i took last week off. it rained a lot; i'll probably be berated for it but i went to stoney, cos it was dry, and was outdoors. If i didn't go to the wall i'd be struggling with 5c. yes i'd like to get out more often and get out climbing classic problems, but then i love my work and enjoy getting paid, so am limited to geting out when i can, which when you work one weekend in 3, and have a non-climbing girlfriend is again limited.
Training is fun. its as near to climbing as you can get if its dark or raining. i like campusing. i also like tradding, i also like going to yoga, and running. its probably cos i enjoy physical activity.
lets hope the weather is good at the weekend and boxing day, cos then i'll hit the crag. if its raining or damp, i'll be at the wall. you coming johnny, dense'll show you how to dead hang?
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I'm sure part of the problem is that the training wall is currently a blank canvas. Those who are used to training on a wooden board with fifteen years worth of pre-set Ben and Jerry problems aren't used to using their imaginations. They want to just turn up and test themselves against an established benchmark that involves maximum power and minimum skill. There is far more potential on this one board than at the school, but it will take a while to unlock. Some folk just want it all on a plate.
you guys seem to do a lot of training. Makes me feel a bit useless
Those who can, climb. Those who can't, train.
It was these two posts that initially got me posting if you were wondering (which i'm sure you weren't).
Maybe your right about lots of people maybe benefiting more from concentrating on technique but as saltbeef says you've got to have the time, you can train even if its dark or wet.
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My tuppence worth, I think anyone can learn to climb "technically" (whatever that may mean) if they decide to dedicate enough time and effort into it. This does not only mean having to climb outdoors all the time, it also means going to a suitable wall and seeking out problems that require something other than bearing down on small holds on a steep wall.
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I was just wondering if anyone else shared my philosophy on "Specific Climbing Related Strength Training" (as it shall now be known to avoid confusion):
I too realised, early in my climbing career, that technical climbing didn't suit me (partly due to lanky inflexibleness and partly due to being a white boy who couldn't jump). So I decided to concentrate on "SCRST" whilst I was still young with the growth hormones/enthusiasm/time for it. This was with the eventual plan of settling into a nice 9-5 three days a week and climbing outdoors as much as possible (This being the "Specific Climbing Related Technique Training Macrocycle"). Thus hopefully becoming a technically competant all round climbing machine.
Dan
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The thing with training (or climbing more outside to get better technique - lets call that training too if you do it for that purpose) is specificity. If your goal is to climb deliverance and brad pit the Johnny is right - time on the rock is better than campussing or pull ups. If you want to go on holiday to the Frankenjura and climb 8b+ or whatever, then you can be a master of slick movement on grit but if you can't hang the monos you're in the shit. If, like most on here, you want to go on the grit and tick the classics AND pull down on holiday in the Jura, or wherever, then obviously you're going to have to do some training and also put the time in on the rock. JB's advice and viewpoint is valid, but it's predicated on the assumption that the best things to climb are grit lines in the best style. Buoux's view is also right if you want to climb 9a on limestone and consider grit routes to be something that stop you getting bored whilst directing your efforts elsewhere.
Also I have noticed two things about climbing over the years. One is how far technique can get you. A long way. Weak but good people can often get up stuff that strong shit people can't. The other is how far brute stength can get you. Many things that I thought were going to be impossible unless you had flawless technique I have either seen crushed by the truly strong, or I have come back myself, no better as a climber, but stronger, and walked up it. Climbing is so infinitely variable, with so many shapes of rock and factors necessary for success that it becomes very hard to tell which factor you need to change to progress your climbing the fastest. All you can really do is look at what you want to achieve and try and figure where you lack.
As for whether to train technique or strength whilst young, well, (presuming that injury is not a factor) it's true that the technically best climbers were weak whilst they were developing and developed good technique. However it's also true that the strongest climbers got their base level of strength whilst they were young too.
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It's also true that whilst the technically best climbers have done some hard things in good style, it's the very very strong (Malcom, Ben, etc) who have pushed things forward in this country. Looking at my ambitions and deciding wether to follow the path of JB or the path of the School, it's fairly obvious which has the most promise. Obviously this has a lot to do with my ambitions, but it's fair to say that whilst an excess of power and a sprinkling of technique will get me up most things on grit, all the technique in the world isn't going to help me tick Black Lung or True North.....
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What I do find laughable are people for whom training becomes more important than climbing. Again its the same loop - get strong indoors, perform shit outdoors, get stronger indoors, no improvement outside. I don't see the point in this. Fair enough if you only want to climb indoors, but I don't see it as the same sport. There seem to be a lot of folk in Sheffield who have lost sight of what they are training for.
I don’t think this can be dismissed as a myth. To a greater or lesser extent I think it’s fairly common. Self styled training guru Matt 'Smyth' Smith was the archetype. Most examples aren't as extreme as him but there are plenty of way strong boulderers who have achieved much less than far weaker counterparts. Strong climbers who would only need to actually concentrate on actually climbing more rather than projecting all their achievements onto a distant future, to actually make those grades outside.
There is definitely a degree of self defeating pride at work too. Strong boy X cruises everything down the local wall but gets shut down on 7a at the crag, feels foolish in front of his peers so goes back inside. Strong boy X overtime learns to associate climbing indoors with having fun and feeling on top of his game and climbing outdoors with feeling crap and therefore not having fun. So despite strong boy X having started the indoor regime with a view to improving on rock he has ended up reducing the joy he gets from climbing outside and tends to do less of it and stick to working hard projects where he doesn't feel a fool for struggling. It might only take a few weeks or months of swallowing his pride and getting shut down learning to climb properly for strong boy X to become a more rounded climber and thus achieve his full potential. Over time he stops even trying the annoying easy probs, thus compounding his technical ineptitude, but bolstering his dented ego with the occasional hard tick. It becomes even more difficult for the barrier to be overcome because strong boy X ends up spending his time with climbers Y,Z,A,B and C who are all trapped in the same box. Of course they don’t think they are trapped, in the new circle of friends 1-5-9 has become the end in itself and the once held goal of outdoor prowess has become something to roll out if asked what all the training is for, but only half believed in. The means has effectively become the end.
The above is a cartoon parody of the real situation obviously, but can anyone really say there is not a tiny grain of truth in it for some boulderers? It's more common to see obstructive imbalance in peoples climbing towards too little technique rather than too little power.
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Agreed bonjoy. There is a grain of truth amongst all that parody. So which am I, X,Y,Z,A,B or C?
I think Adam's points are fair and represent a way of thinking that was probably more prominent when he started climbing. A lot of the other climbers on here are more new school (myself included), although I definitely don't think that I dislike climbing outdoors, or cry when I get shut down on a 7A (not that it ever happens). I have respect for both points of view and although see them as somewhat mutually exclusive there is a wonderful combination of the two which is the balance I'm sure most people enjoy. Extreme's in any discipline or viewpoint are always flawed, and the true path lies in something that is inbetween. So, I'll see you in the school for more failure on 1-5-9, then I'll see you at Black Rocks to solo some routes and climb some slabs, then I'll see you at cloggy for a whole day of adventure. Anyone who professes that any of these individual paths is right is clearly insane.
Stu made a valid point that those pushing standards have been the strong (very strong!). But before them there was Ron (the technically gifted) and I'm sure this is also a valid perspective in any climbing culture around the world. Climbing is changing. It's not longer the technically gifted pushing the standards, nor is it the very strong, it's the VERY STRONG AND TECHNICALLY GIFTED that are really taking it to the next level. 8A is achieveable by pure strength as it is by pure technique. 8C is not. 8C requires both.
Weekend at the crag, weekday in the den. My happy medium. :kiss1:
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I don’t think this can be dismissed as a myth. To a greater or lesser extent I think it’s fairly common. Self styled training guru Matt 'Smyth' Smith was the archetype. Most examples aren't as extreme as him but there are plenty of way strong boulderers who have achieved much less than far weaker counterparts.... etc
That's exactly what I'm talking about. Despite what has been said above about the UK celebrating talent over application, in sheffield the cult of power is very strong. I think this has been illustrated throughout the thread, even suggesting that strength is not the only way to get better has been a bit of a emperor's new clothes scenario. I would never seriously suggest that training isn't worthwhile, just that in Sheffield its importance is over emphasised.
JB's advice and viewpoint is valid, but it's predicated on the assumption that the best things to climb are grit lines in the best style. Buoux's view is also right if you want to climb 9a on limestone and consider grit routes to be something that stop you getting bored whilst directing your efforts elsewhere.
Funny thing is Ru, in my world there are many other rock types. When I go on holiday, I want to be able to climb huge granite routes quickly and in good style, or climb tottering sea cliffs or desert towers where strength can be a positive handicap. This is another sheffield mindset; that there is only steep lime or grit, or occasionally steep granite boulders. Most of the great rock climbs of the world are actually big crack systems. I've never seen a worthwhile crack indoors yet.
I've made this point before, but the great advancements in world climbing at the moment are taking place on the big granite faces. The UK's top climbers are conspicuous by their absence save for BB guns and Leo. I haven't noticed them down the school much.
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Which reminds me, what happened to FOAM?
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Uncle - I think you're B, but you might be Z. Seriously i'm pointing no fingers, there's a bit of X in most of us. Besides, since your Angels Share revelation I don't think anyone could accuse you of being all crimps, pockets and 1-5-9.
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In my experience, Uncle is Y all over.
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The UK's top climbers are conspicuous by their absence save for BB guns and Leo. I haven't noticed them down the school much.
Don't make me list Britains top climbers that do or have once used the school as a training facility.
I've made this point before, but the great advancements in world climbing at the moment are taking place on the big granite faces. The UK's top climbers are conspicuous by their absence save for BB guns and Leo. I haven't noticed them down the school much.
And I believe last time you made this point you came up on a bit of opposition?
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The things you don't know....
But there is another point I want to make, and it is about the percieved levels of strength and technique. People very wrongly assume that a strong climber has very little technique. I'm sure I am viewed as stronger than I am technical, but it would be unfair to say I have no technique. Infact, most strong climbers I have met do have very good technique, but because they are so damn strong people neglect to see how technical they are. This is something I've really noticed when climbing with strong people. I would also suggest that if you took 2 people, one viewed as strong, the other as technical, and compared their abilities (using some infallible testing machinery), you would find that the difference in strength between the "strong" guy and the "technical" guy would be large, but the difference in technical ability would be smaller. Clearly it would depend on the subjects in question, but I'm sure this is true in a lot of cases. Don't hate a man for being strong, love him for being more technical than you thought.
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I've made this point before, but the great advancements in world climbing at the moment are taking place on the big granite faces. The UK's top climbers are conspicuous by their absence save for BB guns and Leo. I haven't noticed them down the school much.
And I believe last time you made this point you came up on a bit of opposition?
I presume you mean Leo and Ben once competed indoors? Well they may have done but that's not where they learnt to climb hard outdoors.
Don't make me list Britains top climbers that do or have once used the school as a training facility.
And of those, how many have never climbed at, say, Burbage? So would it be useful? I'm not suggesting walking in thier infects you with some kind of anti-technical virus. The point remains that indoor walls are of little use for learning to climb cracks, big routes, technical slabs or loose rock, all of which are essential skills for climbing world-wide.
but because they are so damn strong people neglect to see how technical they are
Actually, when you see a really technically able climber it smacks you in the face just as raw power does. I have never seen a british climber move as well on grit as Marc le Menestrel did on his first visit. Do you think Marc flounders on the red problems back home?
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I could name one successfull UK boulderer who since he started training in earnest has (of course) become way stronger than before (significantly so), but has also technically speaking come on in leaps and bounds. Astonishingly so.
The notion that strong = poor or poorer technical ability is, frankly, a crock. Watch where you swipe that dirty brush.
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The fact that I have never suggested that more strength = less technical abilty doesn't seem to stop folk assuming thats what I'm think. I'm don't, and never have done.
I just think the 'cult of power' in sheffield is misguided and isn't producing climbers with all-round ability.
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Do you think it's important to have climbers with all round ability?
I think you're right about the advancements in big wall climbing recently, but I'm not sure how relevant that is to UK climbers whose nearest big walls (granite anyway) are thousands of miles away.
Do you think that everyone would still be power obsessed in Sheffield if El Cap stood where stoney does now?
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Funny thing is Ru, in my world there are many other rock types. When I go on holiday, I want to be able to climb huge granite routes quickly and in good style, or climb tottering sea cliffs or desert towers where strength can be a positive handicap. This is another sheffield mindset; that there is only steep lime or grit, or occasionally steep granite boulders. Most of the great rock climbs of the world are actually big crack systems. I've never seen a worthwhile crack indoors yet.
I've made this point before, but the great advancements in world climbing at the moment are taking place on the big granite faces. The UK's top climbers are conspicuous by their absence save for BB guns and Leo. I haven't noticed them down the school much.
I'm well aware that you do lots of other styles of climbing aswell as grit, it was a bit lazy of me not to point that out. What I'm saying is that for the popular styles, ie hard steep bouldering, steep sport routes, strength counts for an awful lot. As for it being a sheffield centric way of thinking that climbing = bouldering and limestone sport routes, well I think this is world-wide. I know there are lots of people doing other stuff, but check out 8a.nu to get an idea of the world many people seem to live in.
I think the opposition point that Paul B was making was with reference to the great advancements being in big granite faces and so on. I see where you're coming from, but without going back over that discussion there are lots of people that think that the great advancements recently are in steep bouldering and sport.
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Nail on the head RU.
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The point remains that indoor walls are of little use for learning to climb cracks, big routes, technical slabs or loose rock, all of which are essential skills for climbing world-wide.
Reinforcing the point I made above, and without pointing fingers as to who falls into what category, I imagine that many climbers could realise all of the things they ever dreamt about doing in the world of rock climbing without ever doing any of the above things you mention. I'm not saying this is bad or good, just that your view of what climbing is only one of several.
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The fact that I have never suggested that more strength = less technical abilty doesn't seem to stop folk assuming thats what I'm think. I'm don't, and never have done.
My comments are a general all-round bitch and I was not replying in reference to thee. I've heard stronger climbers dissed so often... Mostly deservedly so, the very strong often climb like mules! But not all, there are exceptions.
Unc' is correct: bouldering in the upper levels requires both strength and technical ability. The only exception (I've seen) to this rule is Floppy. But he's weird.
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good thread, is keeping me entertained while my split tip heals :great:
I liked bonjoys a.b.c.d.e.f...etc.
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I don’t think this can be dismissed as a myth. To a greater or lesser extent I think it’s fairly common. Self styled training guru Matt 'Smyth' Smith was the archetype. Most examples aren't as extreme as him but there are plenty of way strong boulderers who have achieved much less than far weaker counterparts.
Whilst I'm adding lots of Yang to the Ying, I'd also like to point out that there are some very technical, naturally talented climbers out there that have achieved far less than some stronger but technically denser climbers.
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I've made this point before, but the great advancements in world climbing at the moment are taking place on the big granite faces. The UK's top climbers are conspicuous by their absence save for BB guns and Leo. I haven't noticed them down the school much.
Not really surprising that not many people from a country with no real big faces don't choose to try and push the limits of it.
The point remains that indoor walls are of little use for learning to climb cracks, big routes, technical slabs or loose rock, all of which are essential skills for climbing world-wide.
There is no reason why a wall can't have cracks or technical slabs, there's a hanging slab at my local wall, and frequently finger jams, hand jams, body jams. They're not as long as you'd get outside by any means, but you have to be able to jam properly to get past it, so you can practice the technique. I find there's lots of problems I struggle on inside because of my technique just like there is outside. I think the idea that just because most walls don't set very technical problems means you can't set technical problems is a misconception.
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I know there are lots of people doing other stuff, but check out 8a.nu to get an idea of the world many people seem to live in.
or:
I know there are lots of people doing other stuff, but check out 8a.nu to get an idea of the world the kind of people who post on 8a.nu seem to live in.
ie hard steep bouldering, steep sport routes, strength counts for an awful lot.
Would anyone with a brain argue against this? What I don't agree is that these are 'the popular styles'. There is a world of climbing going on beyond this - you only have to look at the success of Vertical and Alpinist magazines. I don't see the bouldering or sport magazines that everyone was predicting a few years back.
there are lots of people that think that the great advancements recently are in steep bouldering and sport.
Advancements, yes, great leaps forward? No. Standards in these areas have progressed in a steady linear fashion. There have been some massive leaps recently on big walls, though I guess they didn't score any points on 8a.nu - I guess the real mistake I am making is trying to have this debate on the training section of a bouldering forum.
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Yep!
Rather like going to a gay club and complaining you got your ass felt...
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I guess the real mistake I am making is trying to have this debate on the training section of a bouldering forum.
Well there is a point there. I accept everything you say, which is why I've tried to cover my back with disclaimers and so on. I realise there is a big world out there, with lots of branches of climbing, but that's not really what most people were discussing. If it were otherwise I would have played devils advocate by saying forget technique and strength, what you really need is massive legs and the ability to climb continuously for 30 hours to do big Alpine syle enchainments. And so on. But most people on here were discussing hard, technical rock climbing, mostly bouldering and sport.
As for 8a.nu, I fear the 8a.nu world is quite large. Again this isn't a value jugement of how worthwhole 8a.nu is.
As for the advancements vs great leaps, yes I know, as I said I wan't trying to open up that can of worms, I was merely explaining Paul B's post.
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The notion that strong = poor or poorer technical ability is, frankly, a crock. Watch where you swipe that dirty brush.
Speaking as a keenly observant uber-punter I think the distinction is slightly spurious. What often gets termed "technique" seems to largely comprise being strong enough to have time to place your feet somewhere efficacious. The knowledge of where to put your feet and the instinct to do it quickly may perhaps be gained doing gritty slabs rather than pulling on plastic, but, it is of limited use without being able to hang the holds in the meantime.
That said, it does almost reduce me to tears when I see far stronger folk than me noisily trying and failing to campus their way up fairly easy stuff where a few heel-hooks makes all the difference (wistful mutterings of "...what I would do with their strength...."). Still, their lack of what is commonly called technique (but is really ignorance) would easily be remedied with a few words. My own lack of strength will take far longer and will probably always limit me. I know what the "cure" is, I just happen to prefer actually doing problems rather than specific training. The world of campusing, lock-offs, footless work on jugs will have to wait until I have more leisure time to spare.
I suspect the only area where a real technique versus strength disparity does exist is in hard on-sighting where the margins are so small that utmost sureness and efficiency is required. Even then, if a complete ignoramus if truly strong enough he will often have time to correct his mistakes.... or just power through.
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There have been some massive leaps recently on big walls, though I guess they didn't score any points on 8a.nu - I guess the real mistake I am making is trying to have this debate on the training section of a bouldering forum.
These big wall heroes can put there routes down on 8a.nu if they so wish. Check out Yosemite beast Nico Favresses scorecard, he's got leaning tower down as 8a. He doesn't put stuff easier than 8a on there so freerider and other stuff he's done aren't there.
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Nico (http://web.8a.nu/(qvml5lyvfqmyap55gqriunzz)/scorecard/AscentList.aspx?UserId=276&AscentType=0&AscentClass=0&AscentListTimeInterval=1&AscentListViewType=0)
Nico All time (http://web.8a.nu/(qvml5lyvfqmyap55gqriunzz)/scorecard/AscentList.aspx?UserId=276&AscentType=0&AscentClass=0&AscentListTimeInterval=0&AscentListViewType=0)
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Advancements, yes, great leaps forward? No. Standards in these areas have progressed in a steady linear fashion. There have been some massive leaps recently on big walls, though I guess they didn't score any points on 8a.nu - I guess the real mistake I am making is trying to have this debate on the training section of a bouldering forum.
One of which would have been Tommy Caldwell's linkup on El Cap, no? To listen to Tommy talk about it the success of this is based upon training, training and training. But did that running, weight lifting and laps at the wall get him up the changing corners pitch all by itself? Of course not - he needed a bit of footwork too. The impression you give is that you believe the great leaps forward in big wall climbing had nothing to do with training, and that it was in fact counter-productive as it led to a mindset that distracted climbers from the true path to success (technique). I'm not sure that that is what you really believe. It should be obvious to most that the primary requirement for any type of ultra-hard free climbing is strength and fitness (BB Guns isn't exactly weak you know), and that all that technical bollocks can be picked up later. An example: the Hubers aren't exactly technically poor but they didn't know much about crack climbing when they started freeing big walls. It didn't take them long to pick it up but do you think they would have acheived what they have without the sport climbing fitness they possess in spades?
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I doubt Caldwell would have got up Dihedral Wall either if it wasn't for his 9a+/V13 prowess.
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So.
Technique = fancy footwork (?).
What about those that possess strong fingers (strong enough to hold the holds longer) but the rest of their body lets them down somewhat, yet are forced to employ technique (fancy footwork) at the same time as holding those holds in order to make up for what they lack below the wrist?
The distinctions are blurrrrrrrrrring.
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f it were otherwise I would have played devils advocate by saying forget technique and strength, what you really need is massive legs and the ability to climb continuously for 30 hours to do big Alpine syle enchainments.
I didn't notice Tony Lamiche having big legs? Perhaps he is so nu-school he has gone for the 'light-and-lucky, fast-and-free' option on the legs front.
These big wall heroes can put there routes down on 8a.nu if they so wish.
Genius. 8a.nu continues to astonish.
It should be obvious to most that the primary requirement for any type of ultra-hard free climbing is strength and fitness (BB Guns isn't exactly weak you know), and that all that technical bollocks can be picked up later.
An example: the Hubers aren't exactly technically poor but they didn't know much about crack climbing when they started freeing big walls.
These points are plain wrong (so much so I don't believe you are doing anything other than playing devil's advocate)
The impression you give is that you believe the great leaps forward in big wall climbing had nothing to do with training,
Your impression is wrong. As I keep trying to reiterate, what I'm railing against here is the sheffield-centric 'cult of power' that keeps churning out strong-but-technically-dense folk who can climb 8a but not 5c.
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f it were otherwise I would have played devils advocate by saying forget technique and strength, what you really need is massive legs and the ability to climb continuously for 30 hours to do big Alpine syle enchainments.
I didn't notice Tony Lamiche having big legs? Perhaps he is so nu-school he has gone for the 'light-and-lucky, fast-and-free' option on the legs front.
An example only, to illustrate that we were talking about a small range of the total climbing experience. I'm not trying to win an example/counter example competition about what attributes you need to do various mountain activities.
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I doubt Caldwell would have got up Dihedral Wall either if it wasn't for his 9a+/V13 prowess.
Tommy got up Dihedral wall, Linea di Eleganza, 9a+, V13 etc because he is a great all-round climber. I don't see a chicken-and-egg here, just someone who has climbed all styles since he was a youth.
Is someone here suggesting being strong makes you bad at all-round climbing, or that all-round climbers are not strong? If there is its not me. You all seem to be arguing against points I'm not making.
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The reason people assume that you are making those points is that you say things like "Those who can't climb, train"....
Also, when Ru makes the point that strength is vital for bouldering/sport climbing and you make a counter-point that there is a world of climbing beyond that, the implication is that you don't view strength as important for these forms of climbing.
I think you're spot on about the need for good, nay excellent, technique if you want to achieve anything, even hard sport climbing and bouldering. I still think you are too dismissive of strength. The climbing arenas in which you can be World Class (tm) whilst actually being weak are few in number. Perhaps your stance is a back-lash against the cult of training, which I admit is strong in Sheffield, but it often seems like you've taken it too far.
I wouldn't want you to get offended by this example - but you are a technically gifted and natural climber and grit aretes are a medium that suit you well, but it's Buoux 8c who did Careless Torque ground up. I believe that your dislike of training has held you back almost as much as a blindspot for technique has held back others. Maybe that's fine by you, but might you exceed your own aspirations with some deadhangs and a few laps on Powerband?
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Uncle - I think you're B, but you might be Z. Seriously i'm pointing no fingers, there's a bit of X in most of us.
i think i might be a G.O.O.S.E but i can't be sure......
although i can see JB's point it seems to have got lost somewhere that climbing the things you need to train for (steep shit etc), particularly when rock bouldering, can be a shitload of fun. especially when you're squeeking like sharma blah di blah.
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[. You all seem to be arguing against points I'm not making.
Maybe you need to reword some of your posts so that the point is not misconstrued.
Its seems that for some its power OR technique, and that one is more worthy than the other. This is clearly bollocks!
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You all seem to be arguing against points I'm not making.
Well we can't all be imagining it :lol:
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Running it all through the B U L L S H I T U L A T O R (Patent Pending)
Every time I go indoor climbing a little piece of me dies. I'd sooner fuck-off the opportunity to progress in areas currently beyond my ken and do what I want to do/love than get sweaty with a bunch of body-nazi's, even though I accept that to do so I may not improve on my own turf as much as I might wish.
Well why didn't you say so? :shrug:
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i've found your log, mistah houdinah, sah
(http://www.soimmature.com/images/super_long_turd.gif)
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Oh my that looks delicious!
You wouldn't have any more would you?
Fired, then glazed: it'd be the shit on my woodie.
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yesterday i pulled and locked-off a total of 840 kg.
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On the subject of power and technique
The first time I saw Ben Moon (the ultimate techinque is no substitute for power hero) climb the thing that struck me was
how good his movement on rock was his foot palcement and body positioning.
Ok so we can all style problems that feel easy but my overriding impression was of someone in tune with the rock,
that comes from spending a lot of time climbing not just training.
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I believe that your dislike of training has held you back almost as much as a blindspot for technique has held back others. Maybe that's fine by you, but might you exceed your own aspirations with some deadhangs and a few laps on Powerband?
That is exactly the point I made regarding to Mr. Long’s naivety- although Stu is a bit more diplomatic.
It seams Adam that even you will accept an imbalance in abilities is not the way forward. Whilst you/ amongst others are happy to believe that people who are strong and have poor technique are the village idiots, surely the same goes for those who have a great technique but are as weak as kittens?
I have climbed with most of the world class climbers currently on the circuit, and not one has a poor technique. It may be right to say, with some of them at least, their power is maybe better than their technical ability, but the foundation of technique is pretty damn solid. Dai Koyamada for example, has solely campussed and deadhung for the last 5 years, but watch him climb and he uses his feet obscenely well, almost like hands; hooking and grabbing everything he can. But if you ask him his way to progression, he would always say power.
Myself, as another example, although I'd be the first to admit my level of power does exceed my technical ability by approximately two grades (i.e, my hardest stuff will be power orientated), that still leaves my able to climb routes/boulders of a technical nature up to French 8c/ font 8b. Can you honestly argue that this level of technique is not sufficient? Even though I have spent the last three years campusisng? You must remember Adam, that whilst I am a power orientated climber, things such as Careless Torque are so far beneath my top level, that even though they do not suit me, I'm afraid to say they are still pretty easy.
Obviously there are some that have no technique and vice versa, but it is important to understand that these guys will never be world class, just like the ones who have great technique but no power.
Regarding the school, every world class climber from Britain, bar one, has regularly used the school room. Can you honestly say that there are better ways to get to a world class level, in any way of climbing? Thus making all the climbers that used the school lucky, It is important to understand that anyone in Britain who tried other methods, have not succeeded in becoming one of the best. Now I’m not particularly good at Maths, but even I can say this is a sound assumption.
As much as you like to believe Leo and Ben learnt to climb purely on the rocks, have never stepped a foot indoors, do not even know, nor need to know what training is and are by far the best climbers Britain has ever produced. Unfortunately, this is not the case. Both of them spent there youth hood climbing comps, training indoors building up a solid foundation of climbing and physical ability, Ben still does now, and is also regularly seen climbing at Raven Tor- another of your ‘chosen’ places. Most importantly, I believe neither are world class climbers in any style (feel free to correct me). So how can you justify your beliefs, when, quite simply, things just don’t quite add up.
Ps, sorry for typo's/ errors, i am in a great rush.
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Quote from: Johnny Brown on Today at 01:04:41 PM
Every time I go indoor climbing a little piece of me dies. I'd sooner fuck-off the opportunity to progress in areas currently beyond my ken and do what I want to do/love than get sweaty with a bunch of body-nazi's, even though I accept that to do so I may not improve on my own turf as much as I might wish.
Genius.
As much as you like to believe Leo and Ben learnt to climb purely on the rocks, have never stepped a foot indoors, do not even know, nor need to know what training is and are by far the best climbers Britain has ever produced.
If you had actually read what I wrote rather than imagining it based on your barmy mental image of me, you might know that I don't think along any of those lines.
Regarding the school, every world class climber from Britain, bar one, has regularly used the school room.
This is a remarkable statement which only goes to show how limited, naive and frankly wrong your own world view is. What is your definition of 'world' and 'climber'? What happened before the school was built? Did time start then, did climbing not exist before then or did Britain not produce world class climbers?
Anyway this is beside the point as I have never said training is not essential if you want to be world class, nor that being strong is somehow bad. Apart from my initial statement, which I quickly admitted was a flippant wind-up (and a mighty successful one it would seem), all I have said is that I meet a lot of folk committed to training who would do well to make do with the strength they have for a bit and work on their technique. I don't see why that is such a heresy.
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Regarding the school, every world class climber from Britain, bar one, has regularly used the school room.
Yes. You are correct, if that is what I believed I would be barmy. I was referring to since the schoolroom opened. I'm sorry if I caused you unwanted stress- I must make more of an effort to re-read what I write in future.
Obviously, the likes of Joe Brown did not use the school, as it was not built at that point. But since the school has been built I can only think of one 'current' world class climber who does not, or has not trained there. Can you enlighten my naive, limited, barmy view of the world to include any more people?
If you had actually read what I wrote rather than imagining it based on your barmy mental image of me, you might know that I don't think along any of those lines.
I have yet to develop an image of you Johnny. I have encountered you several times out and about; had the mis-fortune to be on the receiving end of your apparent 'humour/ and occasionally read what you write on these forums, thus my responses are based on only a small part of your life. If I am incorrect in my presumptions then apologies all round. Only you know what you believe, and I respect that and am willing to withdraw any comments made about you if they are untrue. Likewise, your expressed opinions on me are not particularly informative, yet you still went about forming opinions and openly making suggestions/jokes in public houses in Sheffield, when, in fact you had little or no idea what you were talking about. Consequently, rightly or wrongly, people formed opinions which may or may not reflect the true person you are.
I think if you do not want to be mis-construed then you should pay particular attention to what you class as humour. This seems, in my opinion, to be where the problem lies - you make ‘jokes’ which are mis construed, people reply on the basis of your jokes and you feel ‘set upon’ as your comments were never your beliefs in the first place.
I obviously do-not claim to be perfect. Far from it, and I have also been mis-construed with comments made on these forums in the past and know just how annoying it can be.
Obviously this is my opinion, take it as you might.
Anyway this is beside the point as I have never said training is not essential if you want to be world class, nor that being strong is somehow bad. Apart from my initial statement, which I quickly admitted was a flippant wind-up (and a mighty successful one it would seem), all I have said is that I meet a lot of folk committed to training who would do well to make do with the strength they have for a bit and work on their technique. I don't see why that is such a heresy.
Thanks for clearing that up.
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But since the school has been built I can only think of one 'current' world class climber who does not, or has not trained there. Can you enlighten my naive, limited, barmy view of the world to include any more people?
I think you need to enlargen your view of the definition of the word 'climber' beyond bouldering and sport.
Anyway, as this seems to be about more than it appears, and clearly you have only second-hand information on what I may or may not have said to friends over a pint. As I've seen in this 'debate' folk are only too willing to jump to conclusions when they feel denigrated. Don't worry, I don't feel 'set upon'.
Clearly you think I have accused you of lying. I haven't. What I did say was this:
I think it is hypocritical to start your climbing media career by openly accusing Ben Heason of being a liar, on the basis of him having limited evidence for his ascents, and then to go on to report several ascents with limited evidence of your own.
Had I made such accusations I would have wanted my own career to be whiter than white.
Please note well here: this is not a suggestion that you have lied. Clearly your friends and informants have become confused here. And if I have overlooked your evidence please correct me publicly, as I know there are others who have overlooked it also.
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For what it's worth...
I agree with JB in so far as one of the reasons I got into climbing and why I still love it today is because it's outdoors. If I look back on my climbing 'career' the best and most lasting memories more often than not involve weather, crags and people. The whole range of factors go together to make what is so special about what we do. Don't get me wrong I do enjoy the feeling of satisfaction that comes from pushing myself and a hard(ish) ascent, but from personal experience I find this fleeting. It is not why I continue to climb.
The British climbing scene is too big now for everyone to like the same thing anyway. It would be shit if everybody turned up to do White Wand every weekend and I'm sure the members at the school would be dismayed if hundreds turned up to try Driller Killer of a Sunday afternoon. We should be thankful that tastes are so different because it spreads the load on our fragile playground.
I do believe however that this recent spate of dissatisfaction with the state of funding for climbing comes from those firmly entrenched in the training mentality. I don't know if the amount of work they put in makes it feel like a full time job. That this compulsion makes them feel they deserve something back. I would like to think that people climb for its own reward. This may be naive sentiment in this day and age but I'm sure the people I enjoy climbing with share this outlook.
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In fact, fuck it. Lets just wait till we next meet.
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I was going to leave it. But then the rumors would grow.
Firstly,
Quote
But since the school has been built I can only think of one 'current' world class climber who does not, or has not trained there. Can you enlighten my naive, limited, barmy view of the world to include any more people?
I think you need to enlargen your view of the definition of the word 'climber' beyond bouldering and sport.
Yes, the likes of Andy Cave are really known for their sport and bouldering. I think you will find that there are sport climbers, boulderers, trad climbers, alpinists, all of world class ability’s that use the school.
I think it is hypocritical to start your climbing media career by openly accusing Ben Heason of being a liar, on the basis of him having limited evidence for his ascents, and then to go on to report several ascents with limited evidence of your own.
Had I made such accusations I would have wanted my own career to be whiter than white.
Adam. On what basis do you make this assumption? As far as i am concerned we have never climbed together. We hardly know each other. You have never asked me details regarding any of my ascents. You don't know who I climb with and again have never asked. You don't know whether or not I have proof for my ascents, and have never asked.
In fact, you know very little about my climbing, or me, and have never taken the time to find out. So how can you honestly comment that one; I have gone on to report several ascents with limited evidence of my own and two; whether or not my career is whiter than white.
If you can recall Adam, we had this conversation about a year ago when you made similar remarks about my ascent of Careless Torque. I phoned both you and Dense (the other accuser) up and offered to go back the next day, with both of you to climb it again, in return for an apology on my success. You declined. Not me, YOU. I hoped that would have been the end of it. But obviously not.
Anyway, for the record, I have witnesses and proof for everything I have ever climbed (obviously not some insignificant stuff). If it really worries you that much Adam, then do what I told you to do when we last spoke about Careless Torque on the phone - come and ask me, express your concerns, and I will do my utmost to put your mind at rest. Likewise, the same goes for anyone else.
What else can one do in this situation? I just hope that either Adam puts up, or shuts up, as it is becoming entirely unfair and frustrating.
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How could you have possibly 'overlooked' my evidence? How do you even know I have 'limited' evidence for my ascents? You have never asked me who I climb with. You have never asked me what evidence I have. You have never asked me anything along these lines. Ever.
By the same method you 'know' that I have made accusations about you being a liar (which, as I explained above, I haven't) - that is by talking to our mutual friends Keith and Doyle. Clearly they are unreliable at passing information either way.
If I remember correctly Adam, you made similar remarks when I climbed Careless Torque. I phoned both you and Dense (the other accuser) up and offered to go back the next day, with both of you and climb it again, in return for an apology on my success. You declined. Not me, YOU.
As I remember, these are the only 'remarks' I have made on the subject. My memory of that phone call is that we concluded that Doyle had got the wrong end of the stick; i.e taking my assertion of it being hypocritical climbing and claiming it without witnesses as doubting your ascent. I won't repeat your reasons why this might have been the case. I have already written up your ascent in the new BMC guide script for which I am writing the Plantation bouldering.
Nevertheless you continued making unfounded accusations, Which, I believe was entirely unfair, but I put up with it and moved on. You on the other hand have continued your cowardly ways.
No I didn't. Who exactly is telling you this?
As I can recall on numerous occasions you, making defamatory remarks about Ben Heason. The only difference is you decided to keep stum when it all came out, although even then that did not stop you continuing your 'two faced' cowardless attacks on Ben.
Again, no I didn't. For the record, we corresponded before you made your public accusations. I agreed Ben had little evidence for his ascents, however I have never said that I don't believe him. I didn't, and still don't, feel there is sufficient evidence to make such an accusation; and I even warned you not to make them for that reason. Nevertheless you went ahead and events unfolded exactly as I had warned you they might. I see Ben around and I don't think he feels I have been or am attacking him.
My career is in fact 'whiter than white' as you so naively put it. I have witnesses and proof for everything i have ever done. Just because you do not know the extent of the proof I have, by way of never asking, does not make me a liar.
You keep calling me naive. If I don't know about all this evidence, despite seeing you in the pub and talking to your best friends about it, how are the general climbing public to know about it? Climbers are by nature inquisitive and will like to know details about ascents; if such details are not forthcoming they will ask questions. Unfortunately for the majority of these people they won't be able to ask Uncle like I do.
YOU are naive to think firstly; climbers will somehow know about all your evidence despite it not being available anywhere, and secondly that myself or Dense have any level of influence about your credibility. People think for themselves, if you feel you lack credibility look at how you have conducted your career. You can make Dense or I scapegoats if you like, it won't stop others asking questions.
Just because you do not know the extent of the proof I have, by way of never asking, does not make me a liar.
As I have said about five times now, I am not calling you a liar. I am calling you a hypocrite for not making all this evidence freely available. You should not have criticised Ben if you were not going to make your own career transparent from the start. It is not me that needs convincing here it is all the folk who are not on drinking terms with your mates.
Why don't you get some of your videos online? I'm sure Doyle and Uncle between them have the expertise even if you haven't. They would serve both to inspire your fans and dispel your critics, I can't see there being any better way really. (Top tip though - don't have too many edits as the real doubters will claim its 'spliced')
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I agreed Ben had little evidence for his ascents, however I have never said that I don't believe him.
You have confirmed everything I thought of you. Do you honestly believe that comment?
If I don't know about all this evidence, despite seeing you in the pub and talking to your best friends about it
Again, you are making assumptions about who my best friends are. Keith and Doyle, although associates are not my best friends, nor my climbing partners, I climb with these two about 5% of the time.
Just of note, you comment how I use you and Dense as a scapegoat, and that the real doubters out there need proof. Who exactly are these doubters, and why I have never heard of anyone else, bar you two, making accusations.
Why don't you get some of your videos online? I'm sure Doyle and Uncle between them have the expertise even if you haven't. They would serve both to inspire your fans and dispel your critics, I can't see there being any better way really
Categorically not. Until people present themselves as doubters, I have no intention whatsoever in allowing them to save face by me putting up climbing videos on the net. It is the reason there is nothing up on the net at the moment and the reason nothing will ever go up. Like I said, until people outright question me, I will be doing nothing to prove them wrong. It would be unfair for me to present proof and never know the full extent of who these doubters are and exactly what they doubted.
I shall not be replying again. Unless you have anything constructive to say, then I suggest you don’t bother either.
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I do believe however that this recent spate of dissatisfaction with the state of funding for climbing comes from those firmly entrenched in the training mentality. I don't know if the amount of work they put in makes it feel like a full time job. That this compulsion makes them feel they deserve something back.
I'd just like to emphasise that the issues I raised on the other thread had nothing to do with believing I myself deserved anything back, it was others that I fealt weren't being given the resources that should be available to them.[/size]
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That's fair enough. I assumed (wrongly) because you'd posted it up that you had a vested interest in what you'd written.
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I agreed Ben had little evidence for his ascents, however I have never said that I don't believe him.
You have confirmed everything I thought of you. Do you honestly believe that comment?
I though you were studying Law? Surely you understand expressing doubt does not neccessarily mean outright disbelief. I still maintain there is not enough evidence on this for anyone but Ben to know the truth
Categorically not. Until people present themselves as doubters, I have no intention whatsoever in allowing them to save face by me putting up climbing videos on the net. It is the reason there is nothing up on the net at the moment and the reason nothing will ever go up. Like I said, until people outright question me, I will be doing nothing to prove them wrong. It would be unfair for me to present proof and never know the full extent of who these doubters are and exactly what they doubted.
I really don't follow your logic here. Most people present their evidence up front and as a result never have any doubters. You seem to be on some kind of mission to actually create doubters? And then meet them? Why? It seems bizarre. :shrug:
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That's fair enough. I assumed (wrongly) because you'd posted it up that you had a vested interest in what you'd written.
Glad thats cleared up then, if I see you down the works I'll explain what kicked me off in more detail.
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I agreed Ben had little evidence for his ascents, however I have never said that I don't believe him.
:whistle:
My memory of that phone call is that we concluded that Doyle had got the wrong end of the stick;
:whistle: Stupid old doyle eh! I only wish i could tell when people are joking. I blame it on my parents.
I can see Simpsons logic why he doesn't want to publish evidence before people come forward (and by the way i'm speaking purely as an associate here). If there are people out there that doubt him why not just confront him. He's not gonna twat you, he will though do his uptmost to prove you wrong. Personally i believe that Adam has real doubts about both Ben and Rich but he doesn't want to risk his reputation in case he's wrong. I could be wrong though, in fact i've had enough of this shit( :yawn:), as they say in the real thing ITS TIME TO CLIMB!
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Why must the concepts of wanting to know the history of an ascent and desiring a degree of verification from top climbers as a matter of course, be endlessly conflated with calling someone a liar??? Climbers always want to know a bit of background but these days don’t want to ask because to do so seems to imediately to attract accusations of doubting, when all they are is curious.
to hide what is going on now is to deny future generations a historical context and creates a gap in the folklore
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I go to RGU once a week, and then do yoga afterwards.
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Top climber doesn't mean tallest climber ;)
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Quote
Quote
I agreed Ben had little evidence for his ascents, however I have never said that I don't believe him.
You have confirmed everything I thought of you. Do you honestly believe that comment?
I though you were studying Law? Surely you understand expressing doubt does not necessarily mean outright disbelief. I still maintain there is not enough evidence on this for anyone but Ben to know the truth
Yes. I am studying Law, but the fact remains even if I where to be studying Horticultural science, it still wouldn’t be difficult to remember the occasion/s when I heard you, amongst many others, make outright remarks that Ben is a liar. It also seems I am not alone in hearing these remarks, and Chris has heard you too. Yet you go onto to deny it publically, thus it’s getting silly and should end here. But we both know the truth.
I really don't follow your logic here. Most people present their evidence up front and as a result never have any doubters. You seem to be on some kind of mission to actually create doubters? And then meet them? Why? It seems bizarre.
Again, I believe you are wrong. Most people do not present their evidence up front. Look at any big climbing webpage or magazine; you will often see news reports of people's ascent, but will never see a list of their evidence beneath. Never. I agree this is a shame- I wish climbing was a bit more regulated and that is why I am more than happy to provide evidence if asked. But I would firstly want to know the reasons why the evidence was required, which I believe is far enough as climbing is a personal activity and my ascents mean a lot to me. I would not want to provide evidence for the sole reason of a sick bitter joke.
people present their evidence up front and as a result never have any doubters
For arguments sake, if I were to use your example, I could probably construe doubts about pretty much everyone in the climbing scene; I have never heard or seen any of your 'evidence', does that mean I should have doubts about you? No, it does not. I believe it means I have little interest in your climbing and give you the benefit of the doubt. I am sure that if I paid an interest into your life and wanted to gain evidence regarding your ascents I would not go round Sheffield pubs asking Tom, Dick and Harry. I would just ask you, which would be the only way to get information that was correct, and not formed by 'Chinese whispers'.
On a final note, you claim there are no videos of me climbing, and I should release some videos to clear up any rumors that may, or may not be forming, which in hindsight is a fare point. Yet it doesn’t take a genius to get hold of a substantial amount of footage of me climbing. For example;
Chris Doyle has openly distributed a film called 'Perky Pinky' featuring a me climbing in the school, doing pretty much every hard problem in there (in one session may I add) campussing 1-5-9 about ten times on the trot, and doing 9 one armed pull ups after about 4 hours of solid climbing. Obviously, this is indoor climbing, I am certain you will believe it has not relevance to a 5c arete on the grit. However, your opinion is particularly rare on this one, and I believe this film does my capabilities quite well.
If you look a little further, Doyle also has given out a film called Obsession. Yes, I would be the first to admit that Doyle did not capture my actual ascent of Action Directe. But he did, in the only session of good conditions, film me climb from the second move to the end pretty easily, and go on to climb the first two moves with ease. Obviously not a full ascent, but clearly showing my ability to climb the route with relative ease. This film also shows me walk up a hard 8B, in direct sun making the conditions less than ideal. This ascent led Markus Bock to express amazement, (as this route is renowned for needing perfect conditions for its slopey crux pinch). I also went on to do the single crux move ( a move rated about V13) in one session on an 1 move 8c+ called Vanquish. Again not full ascents, but still showing my capabilities of doing V13 in a session.
I understand you may feel that it is strange that Chris was not there to film Action Directe (just of note, there was five others there, so I am not short of witnesses). But if you talk to me personally, I have very good reasoning, but am not willing to disclose it publicly.
The even eager beaver could also find footage of my climbing a handful of V12/13 boulder problems in the Gunks on the Urban Climber webpage. These where not done in a short session, and again I believe show my ability to climb stuff of this grade with ease.
Not a lot, I agree, but it is a start. I cannot post anything more until I collect my footage from Birmingham (where it is all kept). But out of interest Adam, if I were to provide more footage, what exactly do you believe would help clear things up (i.e. what routes/boulders do I need to provide footage for?), What do I need to show that the above does not show already?
I look forward to your response.
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Why must the concepts of wanting to know the history of an ascent and desiring a degree of verification from top climbers as a matter of course, be endlessly conflated with calling someone a liar??? Climbers always want to know a bit of background but these days don’t want to ask because to do so seems to imediately to attract accusations of doubting, when all they are is curious. What ever happened to….
to hide what is going on now is to deny future generations a historical context and creates a gap in the folklore
Yes. I agree John. Which is why I have always been willing to provide information if asked outright. Surely one cannot base history on hearsay, and as no one has never asked me, it seems this is what people are doing. I am, and always have been more than happy to talk about my ascents if asked. I have always been reluctant to bring them up, as, believe it or not, id rather not talk about stuff if it can be helped. But if people ask, I will always try my best to answer.
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Top climber doesn't mean tallest climber ;)
Just trying to bring it back on topic. Unsuccessfully it seems. Plus my mate who I regularly climb with is taller than me..
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Boy, has this been an edifying spectacle.
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Just of note.
The even eager beaver could also find footage of my climbing a handful of V12/13 boulder problems in the Gunks on the Urban Climber webpage. These where not done in a short session, and again I believe show my ability to climb stuff of this grade with ease.
This should have read, these were both climbed in a short session.
And John, where exactly did you get that quote from me? Im pretty sure that is not my writitng, so it would be great for you to enlighten me as to the specific page. Thanks.
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I'd love to see the Careless video! An onsight of this route was the holy grail of peak grit bouldering for quite some time and to watch footage of the prize being claimed would be awesome!!
The quote is a direct lift from the deleted Heason topic.
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Boy, has this been an edifying spectacle.
I'll second that...
An insight into the top end of the sport you simply dont get on DVDs or as mutterings overheard in a pub. Certainly brought me back to my PC over a dozen times over the last 24 hrs... I've nearly forgotten about my trashed ankle; great distraction therapy.
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John. Are you sure if was my comment though? Im asking because I don’t believe it was me that wrote that. Can you check that it is not someone else’s quote? I'm not calling you a liar, but would like confirmation.
With regards to the Careless video. I would be happy to show you, when I get hold of a copy from home. However, just for the record, I was supposed to be supplying the careless video for use in Sam and Rhy's new video. But when I heard of the rumors/gestures from them, amongst others, I obviously felt reluctant to freely provide my video for their use. Which at the time I believed was fare enough. Maybe with the benefit of hindsight it was not the right thing to do, but at the time I was understandably pissed off.
ps, It was never an onsite. Nor was it claimed to be. It was bouldered as all boulder problems should be.
pps, As already commented both Adam and Dense had the opportunity to watch an ascent first hand, but both refused my offer.
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An insight into the top end of the sport you simply dont get on DVDs or as mutterings overheard in a pub. Certainly brought me back to my PC over a dozen times over the last 24 hrs... I've nearly forgotten about my trashed ankle; great distraction therapy.
It's a shame isn't it. Such an embarrassing sport in most aspects. Still, it's all a learning curve.
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it's not a shame per se....
better out in the open I suppose - i dont get most of what you're all going on about but it's perversely compelling reading... this forum is a bit like listening to the Archers: know the plot roughly, dont know all the characters but every once in a while there's a gem of an episode.
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Yes, i agree. To be honest i'm not to sure why i get involved. Boredom i suppose.
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this forum is a bit like listening to the Archers: know the plot roughly, dont know all the characters but every once in a while there's a gem of an episode.
Or not exactly a gem of an episode in normal terms, but an episode that winds everyone up and causes a great many people to just turn off (that was not meant as a diss to any of the protaganists by the way; I understand your passion and drive to respond).
Good analogy by the way. I really do hate the Archers though.
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:oops: I'm really sorry Rich your memory is correct, that was actually written by Nik at Work. Feel free to -ve karma me, if I could do it I'd punter myself for you
Will edit post
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No problem. I was fairly sure it was not my writing (as it didn't have any typos) ;)
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this forum is a bit like listening to the Archers: know the plot roughly, dont know all the characters but every once in a while there's a gem of an episode.
More like Twin Peaks. It's all a bit wierd and there are loads of odd people. You think you know roughly what's going on most of the time, although there are the occasional curveballs that don't make sense but you shrug your shoulders and enjoy it anyway.
Although it's shit from Season 2.
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where can i see the "pinky perky" video?
im fuc****** curious to see a beast in action.
respect.
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Although it's shit from Season 2.
Where as the Archers just goes on and on...
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this forum is a bit like listening to the Archers: know the plot roughly, dont know all the characters but every once in a while there's a gem of an episode.
whens the gay wedding and will we all get an invite. :kiss1:
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where can i see the "pinky perky" video?
im fuc****** curious to see a beast in action.
respect.
http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,4144.0.html (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,4144.0.html)
Worthwhile. Blokes in Nappies, Blokes in Fancy Dress, Cars stuck in mud, Arrests, Transmissions failing.
And some climbing. I suspect Doylo has still got a few hundred copies under his bed.
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AH HA...
knew i'd out an Archers listener........
So, any of you guys engaged (to eachother) :kiss1:
and for it's worth i saw west coast gimps only last week and It's the most interesting, well shot and purely inspirational video diary a climber can ever see.
Really.
and fuck me Rich - you are strong. (og God gay reference, now i'm in for it)
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ok, nothing better than a trip north to climb a get the vid.
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ok, nothing better than a trip north to climb a get the vid.
from what i've read on here thats not all you'll get if you go rumaging under dylo's bed. :shag:
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Worthwhile. Blokes in Nappies, Blokes in Fancy Dress, Cars stuck in mud, Arrests, Transmissions failing.
After a few minutes thought (quite long for me), I realised that you weren't on about the Archers.
Yeah, top film.
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I've seen glaciers that are quicker than you.
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I'll have a new DVD burner soon for anyone who wants a DVD , including Obsession, you can see for yourselves what a punter simpson is.
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i'll have one, please
:please:
:please:
:please:
(refraining from pretty please)
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obsession gets me psyched every time I watch it, especially when the daft punk and shadow tracks kick in, nice bit of work doylo, when you get your new drive can I grab a copy of Stonedlove for some inspiration?
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I'll have all 3 please :)
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:goodidea: Yeah one copy this way please :please:.....and some wonga in the post in return!
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Always up for some psyche material (especially as there's nowt to climb out here in WA). More than willing to cover expenses of media and posting.
Any chance of seeding a torrent though?
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I've seen glaciers that are quicker than you.
But rarely as sarcastic eh?
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Very Few. Although I always thought the fox in the adverts had a bit of a mean streak.
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Come on! Come on!
There has to be more!
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Let it go, it has ended.
Unless you want to start something with me?
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How about a duel? On Duel in Cuisiniere. Between JB & 8C? It'd need to be filmed like.
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Those who want DVDs pm or email me your addresses and what you want, santa claus will do the rest
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i will take a copy of stoned love and obsession - you can give em matt before you depart for hueco :'(
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How about a duel? On Duel in Cuisiniere. Between JB & 8C? It'd need to be filmed like.
In a Highlander / Cioch Style?
"Can you feel it? It's the Strengthening!"
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Final word.
Yes. I am studying Law, but the fact remains even if I where to be studying Horticultural science, it still wouldn’t be difficult to remember the occasion/s when I heard you, amongst many others, make outright remarks that Ben is a liar. It also seems I am not alone in hearing these remarks, and Chris has heard you too. Yet you go onto to deny it publically, thus it’s getting silly and should end here. But we both know the truth.
Well your frequent re-edits of posts in this thread suggest you, too, sometimes say things in the heat of the moment that you later realise are not your considered opinion. After several pints during pub banter I may have overstated what is my considered opinion, which is that there is not enough evidence available for anyone but Ben to know the truth. You opinion, I think, is based on having had more chances to see him climb than I have. Fair enough. I'm suprised you don't remember the pm's we had at the time? One line was 'if he is lying he is playing a very clever game'. Is that something I would say were I convinced he was lying? Likewise, I don't feel able to say I believe him - there simply isn't the evidence to say that either. As a result you may remember simply 'I don't believe him'. The difference may be subtle but, I think, important. As such I retain an open mind on this - my motivation is to get to the truth.
Why must the concepts of wanting to know the history of an ascent and desiring a degree of verification from top climbers as a matter of course, be endlessly conflated with calling someone a liar??? Climbers always want to know a bit of background but these days don’t want to ask because to do so seems to imediately to attract accusations of doubting, when all they are is curious
I think this is the very nub of the problem. I do a lot of asking questions about ascents because I am genuinely interested in the circumstances and details. I occasionally write articles about them, or record them in guidebooks. Its generally fair to say you often get more objective, accurate and interesting information from witnesses rather than the ascensionists. If I know the climber well I may speak to them, if I know the belayer/ spotter better I'm more likely to chat to them. Often it just depends who you bump into first. To me this seems completely normal - lots of folk have them and between them all they serve as the 'evidence' on which the hsitory of climbing is based. Magazine editors usually ensire they have some of this kind of corroboration before printing.
Occasionally these conversations throw up inconsistencies or simply a lack of information. This is what has happened in your case - a lack of information. This has been explained by you (in a pm) by the fact you instructed your friends 'to say nothing'. (And, I think, under pressure they actually made stuff up instead). By doing this you prevented the normal process of verification and created questions in people's minds where they needen't exist. I can't understand why you did this. Having been told there were no witnesses by a close friend of yours it seems pointless to ask you the same question. Then when others ask to see your videos you refuse on the grounds that 'they don't deserve to see them' it all starts to seem most irregular.
On a final note, you claim there are no videos of me climbing
When? I asked you to put some online, that was all.
It seems to me none of this would have happened if you hadn't asked your friends to 'say nothing'.
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A duel, in sporrans, on Duel? Filmed at night under floodlamps? Accompanied by a didge quartet? You've strange idea's Chris, but why not?
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Thanks for your response. May I also add this is my last post on the matter, and is purely one to clear up a few loose ends.
Well your frequent re-edits of posts in this thread suggest you, too, sometimes say things in the heat of the moment that you later realise are not your considered opinion.
No. I removed one piece of writing for re-structuring, any other editing was simply to correct typo's, as my dexterity when using a keyboard is bad at the best of times (you try hanging off a strip of wood on one finger for two years and see how the co-ordination in your digits is affected.).
After several pints during pub banter I may have overstated what is my considered opinion, which is that there is not enough evidence available for anyone but Ben to know the truth. You opinion, I think, is based on having had more chances to see him climb than I have. Fair enough. I'm suprised you don't remember the pm's we had at the time? One line was 'if he is lying he is playing a very clever game'. Is that something I would say were I convinced he was lying? Likewise, I don't feel able to say I believe him - there simply isn't the evidence to say that either. As a result you may remember simply 'I don't believe him'. The difference may be subtle but, I think, important. As such I retain an open mind on this - my motivation is to get to the truth.
Fair point.
I do a lot of asking questions about ascents because I am genuinely interested in the circumstances and details. I occasionally write articles about them, or record them in guidebooks. Its generally fair to say you often get more objective, accurate and interesting information from witnesses rather than the ascensionists. If I know the climber well I may speak to them, if I know the belayer/ spotter better I'm more likely to chat to them. Often it just depends who you bump into first. To me this seems completely normal - lots of folk have them and between them all they serve as the 'evidence' on which the hsitory of climbing is based. Magazine editors usually ensire they have some of this kind of corroboration before printing.
Again a valid point. But what I struggle to comprehend is why, if you wanted information regarding my ascent’s you never chose to ask me outright? Firstly, this would allow the retrieval of correct information, thus making any writing you are doing correct. Secondly, it is not as if you did not see me on a regular basis. Now I am aware of your perspective regarding if Keith didn’t know anything what would you gain by asking me? But for me it does not seem a logical conclusion. For future reference, please feel free to approach me directly for any reason, as opposed to asking people that do not know me particularly well. I will always try my best to resolve any arising matters.
Occasionally these conversations throw up inconsistencies or simply a lack of information. This is what has happened in your case - a lack of information. This has been explained by you (in a pm) by the fact you instructed your friends 'to say nothing'. (And, I think, under pressure they actually made stuff up instead). By doing this you prevented the normal process of verification and created questions in people's minds where they needen't exist
Just for the record. Firstly, my instructions to Keith and Chris, after I’d already heard the hurtful comments, were, simply to suggest that you approach me directly, as opposed to obtaining information third hand. Both Keith and Chris have confirmed that this is what they told you- yet you never approached me.
Again, if your idea of 'normal verification' as you quite eloquently put it, was the same as mine, then I believe that neither of us would be in this situation. I believe that in order to verify something, you must make an effort to speak to the ‘organ grinder’ as opposed to the ‘monkey’ (no offence Keith/Chris), or in this case, approach the climber in question in the first instance. I do believe approaching me outright would have helped matters substantially, saving both time, effort and more importantly, enabling you to obtain reliable and accurate facts, as opposed to hearsay. I hope that we can both learn from this.
Having been told there were no witnesses by a close friend of yours it seems pointless to ask you the same question
I do not believe that any of my close friends would have told you this…. Keith? Chris?... as they are both aware of the extent of my witnesses.
Then when others ask to see your videos you refuse on the grounds that 'they don't deserve to see them' it all starts to seem most irregular.
Again, this is not the case. I have admitted that I did not supply the Careless video to Sam and Rhys for reasons stated in the previous reply. The only other case which you can refer to, is the one you mentioned in your pm, regarding my apparent refusal to supply James Pearson with video evidence. This is not entirely the case and I am sure that James would be the first to admit it. I told James I would not be willing to give him a copy of evidence to use solely to pass onto anonymous doubters, who were not willing to ask for a copy themselves. Instead, I told James to refer the 'anonymous’ doubters to me, where I would be more than willing to provide them with evidence and put their minds at rest. Hardly an outright refusal in anyone’s book. James, can you please confirm this, as I believe this was the case?
When? I asked you to put some online, that was all.
Ok. And I made you aware of videos that were already online, or available.
Now I have spent a considerable amount of time clearing this situation up. I have provided responses in an honest and civil manner. All I ask is that if anyone does still have sincere doubts about my climbing, please approach me (preferably after x-mas) and I will try my best to put your mind at rest. If you are not willing to approach me, then can I urge you not to continue the mindless gossip and pub rumors, which are both upsetting for me, and a bad reflection on the climbing scene.
Can’t say fairer than that, can I?
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Just to confirm,
When talking over pm about the CT Vid, rich told me the reason he didnt want it to apear on Winter sessions. I then sugested that he show me the video and then I could tell others that I have seen it and hopefuly squash these rumors. This is part of his reply:
I do however find it unfair that this conversation is between you and I, rather than myself and any doubters.For that reason i will be unwilling to use you as a messenger to these anoymous people. i think this would be entirley unfair on myself (not knowing who exactly is making these comments) and also unfair in the fact that the people making these comments would be given an easy ride, and have saved alot of face when proved wrong.
Hope that clears it up
James
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I would be happy to show you, when I get hold of a copy from home
Cheers Rich. Am well psyched!
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I do not know any of you , and therefore have no reason to doubt anyone, but i would like to add, i like many others (i would have thought ) would just really like to see this type of footage.
Nothing to do with doubt, or personal attacks on peoples ability , just appreciating the quality of what is going on out there.
In my opinion it really is a loss to everybody who has purchased the winter sessions dvd. It would have obviously been a highlight of the film.
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Yep... :'(
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Wow. Its taken fully 20 minutes to read this thread.
I would love to see the CT footage too. Its an amazing line and I have never seen it climbed. I have no concept of what you have to do to climb it, and think it one of the best lines in the peak. Get a copy to Jon and I will pop round.
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ok, nothing better than a trip north to climb a get the vid.
from what i've read on here thats not all you'll get if you go rumaging under dylo's bed. :shag:
heh, i have a degree in criminology, i know what to expect!!! ;) ;) ;)
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Is it just me, or is the obvious solution to all this "did he/didn't" he nonsense for some "scapegoat" to take it upon themselves to formally (in writing, preferably proper calligraphy) accuse Rich of being a dirty snotty nosed liar. Whereupon Rich fulfills his offer to ease the mental anguish of said "genuine" doubter with all the videos and vital statistics of witnesses a boy could wish for; hence the "scapegoat" then disseminates the evidence thus obtained to his shady Sheffield mafia backers.
All thats needed is a suitable scapegoat (scapegoose?).
I nominate Andi e.
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;D
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Fook me, reading this makes me glad i dont climb anymore.
Shame to see sound characters (all equally psyched for the same amazing sport) arguing over what is essentially bullshit.
Rich is WAY too talented and beastly to doubt,
Johnny Brown spends far less time indoors than out,
What i do find unbelievable is this rediculous bout,
...for which you could both do with a bloody good clout ;)!
(merry christmas)
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All thats needed is a suitable scapegoat (scapegoose?).
You need a lawyer to ensure no wrong doings are conducted during this interaction. Someone who's integrity is beyond doubt.
Unfortunately all we have is Sloper.
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You need a lawyer to ensure no wrong doings are conducted during this interaction. Someone who's integrity is beyond doubt.
Unfortunately all we have is Sloper.
well...... there is Buoux 8c... but that might entail a slight conflict of interest..... :whistle:
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Is he a fully qualified "law talking guy" already?
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I don't think this thread has been all bad. Far from it. Apart from dredging up the debacle, which I ain't going near right now. One of the inspiring things I heard that really got me psyched is from johnnybrown:
the great advancements in world climbing at the moment are taking place on the big granite faces. The UK's top climbers are conspicuous by their absence save for
I have two questions: 1) How do I get involved?
This is a classic sickeningly naive internet question, which is both a) on the wrong thread (and probably the wrong site), and b) answerable by going to The Valley rather than sitting here, so I apologise for any annoyance. Specifics would be grand though.
2) How do you measure how hard these advances, or big granite routes are? I am interested in this in its own right, as part of my quest to find out what the hardest boiled egg in the world is, but the more important thing is 1). Again the answer is probably `go and do some big granite routes and find out for yourself', but please try to elaborate anyway, I need to get psyched for going and finding out, to happen in the first place. I like all that travel wanderlust, being in touch with the sense of place, on a given day, but if I'm going over there for this purpose I want something to get psyched about - ideally a route. Muchos repsect to my mates who did The Nose (aid, I don't even want to mention aid - I was hoping that freeing was the point),
but given the queues on it, and trade route status, if you were talking about world advances then I presume you had something else in mind.
I'm not the only one who's bewildered by the seemingly disparate nominations for the Piolet D'Or etc., and the answer to what is best -`whichever gives the judging panel of esteemed bearded mountaineers the biggest hard on' isn't useful.
With grit, or bolted lime, or even steep granite, I know how to get good at that, there're grades to help me. The top practitioners making world advances, in these areas, are doing the same as I'm doing, only harder. Doing big granite faces obviously uses the same basic skills and more fitness and speed (and jamming, but hopefully not too much loose rock), but I don't know where to start, where to work my way up from (the ground obviously, bub um tish), don't know what the progression is, or even what makes it hard? I don't really want to start off being completely crap at it either, unless I see that it's worth it. It sounds effing cool though, and I'm sure it is, so please tell me all about it.
Training is bit of a rubbish word, as it is currently used. I haven't climbed indoors for ages - all change for me, I should probably give Pantontino some credit for this. I've read all that about mesocycles, ectomorphs etc. and just know I'm never going to bother with any of it in any formal or structured way. Training referring to this is obviously a massive turn off to a great many people. The important thing when you've got limited time, as in the UK winter, in order to improve or to maintain your standard, is to climb hard. I'd love to be able to do these technical grit problems, but some of them I basically do no climbing on as I can hardly pull off the matt. I wouldn't underestimate technique, but often it's a case of being strong, physically strong, at a given technique, as well as being technically gifted. For me to do them I need time, as without this I've got to do something closer to a flash or onsight of them. You need time to learn how to do the problem. I can be very fast mentally, under stress, but I generally learn pretty slowly. It's similar to kung fu or whatever, the most important part of your body is your brain. Without going in to engrams, counterintuitively that's why you're sometimes not conscience of your climbing - your body's got a better idea of how to climb than you do (though technically even though you're not conscience of it, it's still down to your brain). Personally this is why I junked the anti ego rock warriors way thing in my own climbing. Apart from not remembering it, I'd be surprised if everything I've learned about how to solve problems (a lot, especially linear ones), including climbing ones (much less), was unrelated to my conscious thought and ego, so for me simply lopping the dragon's head off, as Aano Ilgner puts it, would make me a weaker climber. The door is left wide open for merciless piss taking there..
Sometimes it's just a better use of your time to try a problem that you actually get to do some climbing on, whether you do it or not, than one that you spend all your time sat on your mat throwing everything you can think of at it and getting nowhere. All you're doing is training failure. There's more than one reason the best place for the crux is at the top. Maybe I'm just trying problems that are technically too hard for me, but this in itself is solved by a piece of training SCIENCE - drop your load and increase your volume (maybe I should say lower the load - the difficulty, before someone starts - but feel free to use piece of advice in other areas of your life). If you try longer problems, like traverses, or longer up problems, or basic problems, dynos even, where you can try `the' move, you can feel like you're improving from go to go. I hesitate to say you feel like you're training, but the fact of the matter is you will improve - and as a bonus it keeps you warm in winter.
Being told that sitting out bad weather is part and parcel of climbing big granite faces will not make me particularly enthusiastic. For me, finding and exploiting the best conditions is part of climbing. Sitting out bad weather's what you do at work.
For me this is great for doing things that I imagine climbing `big granite faces' is like, but I'd imagine increased strength and its associated power and fitness would be even better. Maybe the point is that all the strength and power in the world is no use if you can't climb with it?
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Is he a fully qualified "law talking guy" already?
Think he's still a trainee "law talking guy" but nevermind.........
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fuck me paz
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no thanks mate ;)
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a man with taste. i like a challenge... ;D
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nice to see you two have got things back in perspective.
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Sometimes it's just a better use of your time to try a problem that you actually get to do some climbing on, whether you do it or not, than one that you spend all your time sat on your mat throwing everything you can think of at it and getting nowhere. All you're doing is training failure. There's more than one reason the best place for the crux is at the top. Maybe I'm just trying problems that are technically too hard for me, but this in itself is solved by a piece of training SCIENCE - drop your load and increase your volume (maybe I should say lower the load - the difficulty, before someone starts - but feel free to use piece of advice in other areas of your life). If you try longer problems, like traverses, or longer up problems, or basic problems, dynos even, where you can try `the' move, you can feel like you're improving from go to go. I hesitate to say you feel like you're training, but the fact of the matter is you will improve - and as a bonus it keeps you warm in winter.
Paz, I would have thought this was elemental (and obvious) to training? You need to set yourself achievable goals. Little point in going and spending weeks trying an 8a prob when you are climbing 6c. You will benefit more in the long run from doing a few 7as 7bs and 7cs along the way, and get a lot more enjoyment from it, than plugging away at an 8a until you get it when all that means is you have one 8a prob you can do and then spend forever trying another one. Or is that stating the obvious.
If you wanted to train for big walls, there's nothing stopping you heading down to Bosigran or Dewerstone and trying to tick as many of the classics as you can in a day to build up the stamina and the rock knowledge. There's some good big wall stuff in the Alps too; Chamonix, Handegg, the Pyrenees where you can escape the crowds if you choose your routes right. Then spend time in the Valley, or better yet the Eastern Sierras to escape the crowds.
I kind of feel like I'm stating the obvious though?
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Does big wall granite really have that much in common with that of Devon and Cornwall in how it climbs? The last time I tried that `trainers on and do lots of easy routes fast with a ruck sack' for the alps thing I fell off. Not that I personally think this is a bad thing, but isn't all that European stuff bolted, or more or less, equipped?
You're talking sense, but you might be answering `what's the best thing to do on a font trip' whereas I'm justifiying what the best thing to do with my current 2 or 3 annual good winter grit days is. I was wondering more about the types of problems to try, rather than the grades. Whether it's doing some climbing as part of working a problem instead of floundering on your arse, or doing lots of easier problems at first to get your skills before working your way up, (even though I've called it doing climbing too, as opposed to only failing) I think we're both saying mileage is the key.
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Having not been done any big walls I can't really say a definitive "yes", but if you choose your routes I don't think it's far off. I know for a fact though, that very little of the Alpine stuff is bolted and a lot of it is climbing long cracks on rock of similar quality. One of the peaks has a section called Little Yosemite for a reason.
For the second part, I'm not sure if we are both agreeing to the same thing.
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ok, today ill test the real thing soundtrack at the campusboard.
;D ;D
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before you ask the answer is yes, that campusboard with ridiculously close rungs.
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im absolutely smashed.
im glad im already at home.
i hope i can lift the pan for cooking.
holy f***!!!
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Mon - Bouldering
Tues - Bouldering plus one hour of skipping
Wed - Bouldering
Thu - Bouldering plus one hour of skipping
Fri - Bouldering plus 5 hours of drinking
Sat - Bouldering plus drug-taking and 6 hours of twitching like a spastic to grinding beats
Sun - Bouldering plus one hour of skipping
Hope this helps.
Bolox.
Surely you mean
monday-arsing about
tuesday-ranting
wednesday-moidering
thursday-squawking
friday-drinking
saturday-dancing
sunday-church!
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wednesday-moidering
Is that irish for mithering, or bronx for murdering?
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to be precise:
- long warmup
- 317, three times per arm alternated L/R, 4 sets, 6 minutes rest;
- long rest
- 147, two times normal and two times with 4 kg, 5 minutes rest.
today deadhangs.
tomorrow surfing. (you need to have fun sometimes!!!)