UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => chuffing => Topic started by: remus on January 03, 2021, 04:25:25 pm
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New year, new lists.
I've filled in a few off the top of my head but who have I missed out? Im sure there's loads I haven't thought of, especially for the women.
British men who have climbed >= E9: https://climbing-history.org/list/6
British women who have climbed >= E7: https://climbing-history.org/list/7
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Bonus grade controversy: is Meshuga actually E8 because it gets done (relatively) often? We're just trying to get through to our correspondent
on the ground who's never been to the crag Will Hunt for an imminent downgrade.
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Yeah ditch meshuga. Multiple ascents like that look too suspicious.
Ali Kennedy, walk of life, somethings burning, plus loads more.
Alexis Perry, exclamation Mark, plus possibly more esoteric stuff in Cornwall.
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Gresh did E10 this year.
Neil Mawson done one as well.
James Pearson has done rhapsody
Neil Bentley equilibrium
Nic sellers Parthian pre break ( must be loads more for that)
Who’s the lad who repeated all Dave’s things up at scarfell.
Loads more.
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Calum Muskett, Indian Face?
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Franco for various things. The NMC have Nothing Lasts pegged at E11.
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Gresh did E10 this year.
Neil Mawson done one as well.
James Pearson has done rhapsody
Neil Bentley equilibrium
Nic sellers Parthian pre break ( must be loads more for that)
Who’s the lad who repeated all Dave’s things up at scarfell.
Loads more.
Craig Matheson?
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Karin Magog for the women’s I would think. Sure she has climbed a few E7s. Charlottes dream direct at Bowden is one from memory but worth double checking I’m not wrong.
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Franco for various things. The NMC have Nothing Lasts pegged at E11.
How stupid of me. I forgot that Franco isn't from Sheffield. Ignore me.
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Franco for various things. The NMC have Nothing Lasts pegged at E11.
Why not include Si O'Connor's routes then? ;)
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Ged, gme, Muenchener: thanks for those, added them all in.
Lurcher: good shout, I've added Craig in for the Birkett stuff he's repeated.
Camo: I had a little search on UKC for stuff Karin has done and turns out she's done Bleed in Hell. Waddage!
Anyone who's more familiar with Franco's stuff than me care to take a guess at what his hardest line is likely to be?
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Nathan has done tonnes; unknown stones, knockin’ , the zone, AwD, rare lichen, sure there will be others.
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Didn't George Ullrich also do Indian Face? It's had a suspicious number of ascents so must only be E8, right? Or maybe, it's iconic and has had large numbers of folk psyched to do it? Hmm, just like Meshuga...
Nathan has done an E9 at Wimberry, Unknown Stones or something?
Nige and Bob have both done Meshuga, Nige has done the direct finish to MaDMAn, which could be E8 or E9 I think?
Sam, Appointment with Death E9.
Must be heaps more.
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Tom Randall gave MYXOMOP the all-important Lattice seal of approval.
Amazing effort from Franco Cookson. One of the best lines I've tried and some very beefy climbing on it.... I spent a few sessions on it and was absolutely sure of it being around E9 7a or you could bracket it in that "highball but really don't fall off at the top!" category. If I'd done this, I would rank it in the top 5 things I'd have ever done on grit/sandstone.
Which begs the question of what you intend to do about highballs.
Dan Varian has had a rope on Nothing Lasts. If I remember rightly the controversy was about resin on the holds, not the grade.
Mark Rankine repeated Divine Moments and suggested E9. Though I'm not sure if Mark has a Lattice training plan and not sure if he climbs at Raven Tor much. He is probably an unperson whose opinion should be erased from existence.
Shit! I keep forgetting that these routes aren't the targets of fragile-ego'd Peak botherers. Strike them from the record, please.
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Gresh did E10 this year.
Didn't he get the 2nd ascent of Equilibrium?
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One confirmed E9 doesn't confirm an E11
I know of at least 2 routes which have been downgraded by people who actually bothered to climb on other rock types and routes.
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Just to clarify, I'm trying to keep the list focused on people who have done E9/E7 or harder, not listing out every single ascent. A couple of ascents per person is enough for my liking (preferably on stuff that's established at the grade).
Didn't George Ullrich also do Indian Face? It's had a suspicious number of ascents so must only be E8, right? Or maybe, it's iconic and has had large numbers of folk psyched to do it? Hmm, just like Meshuga...
Good shout, he's in.
Nathan has done an E9 at Wimberry, Unknown Stones or something?
I've added a few more in for Nathan, won't bother with any more though as not interested in repeating his UKC logbook.
Nige and Bob have both done Meshuga, Nige has done the direct finish to MaDMAn, which could be E8 or E9 I think?
Sam, Appointment with Death E9.
Good shout, they're all on the list.
Gresh did E10 this year.
Didn't he get the 2nd ascent of Equilibrium?
Good shout, I've added him to the list for Equilibrium and Final Score (his E10 that he did this year.)
Men: https://climbing-history.org/list/6
Women: https://climbing-history.org/list/7
Any more knowledge for the women?
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I’ve done two. ‘Return of the King’ and ‘Blood eagle’
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Open to suggestions on what to do with highballs. Andy Earl is one who springs to mind here, stuff like The Prow and The Dark Side seems pretty full value without pads, but then these are typically done with pads nowadays.
The other tricky area is stuff abroad that doesn't have an E grade. Magic Line for example, or Prinzip Hoffnung. I've kinda just guessed at a grade so far. Suggestions welcome.
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Just to clarify, I'm trying to keep the list focused on people who have done E9/E7 or harder, not listing out every single ascent. A couple of ascents per person is enough for my liking (preferably on stuff that's established at the grade).
Fair enough, but Nick Dixon deserves more than one route next to his name.
Before opening the list I was wondering if E7 was too low a threshold for women and was very surprised to see only seven names. Surely there have to be more (though I've been away from things too long to have any suggestions)?
Possibly unpopular opinion; is Unfamiliar E7 with pads?
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Didn’t Birkett repeat To Hell and Back on Hells Lum (E10)? Got a feeling he was a bit dismissive of the grade though.
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Pope has done a couple.
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Katy Whittaker with Gaia and Knocking' on Heaven' Door (E8).
Katy Forrester with De Quincy (E7).
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Katy Whit - Gaia, Master's edge
Naomi Buys - something at Hawkcliffe (Birdsong?), maybe others
Lucy Creamer - loads surely? Slab and crack at curbar as maybe hardest at a guess
Katherine Schirrmacher - balance it is
All suggested by Marie, I can't take the credit
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Andy Earl?
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One confirmed E9 doesn't confirm an E11
I know of at least 2 routes which have been downgraded by people who actually bothered to climb on other rock types and routes.
I've never really understood your beef with him. People get FA grades wrong all the time. Even if Nothing Lasts isn't E11, it's probably still E10. And even if it isn't, confirmed E9 does get you onto Remus' list, which is the only thing that matters in this context.
I'm not out to be a cheerleader for Franco. He's made some hefty mistakes along the way (I don't consider getting an FA one grade out to be a hefty mistake), but he's also been instrumental in developing and pushing standards in a significant UK climbing area, including doing the documentation. That deserves a lot of credit.
It might bother you that he's different and hasn't followed the approved path through climbing, but that doesn't mean that his FA's are all piss.
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Karin has onsighted loads of E6's and some E7's. She was never that keen for serious head pointing but did do some. She wrote a short summery last year for someone and expanded it a little more for my website.
https://climbonline.co.uk/2020/05/02/climbing-is-my-passion-by-karin-magog/
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Many of Andy Earl's achievements are listed on my website here.
https://climbonline.co.uk/2020/05/05/andy-earl-on-top-of-the-world/
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One confirmed E9 doesn't confirm an E11
I know of at least 2 routes which have been downgraded by people who actually bothered to climb on other rock types and routes.
In the context of this list, being E9 and confirmed repeat, Cookson should be in.
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Leo Holding ?
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One confirmed E9 doesn't confirm an E11
I know of at least 2 routes which have been downgraded by people who actually bothered to climb on other rock types and routes.
I've never really understood your beef with him. People get FA grades wrong all the time. Even if Nothing Lasts isn't E11, it's probably still E10. And even if it isn't, confirmed E9 does get you onto Remus' list, which is the only thing that matters in this context.
I'm not out to be a cheerleader for Franco. He's made some hefty mistakes along the way (I don't consider getting an FA one grade out to be a hefty mistake), but he's also been instrumental in developing and pushing standards in a significant UK climbing area, including doing the documentation. That deserves a lot of credit.
It might bother you that he's different and hasn't followed the approved path through climbing, but that doesn't mean that his FA's are all piss.
He did make big grade mistakes and you do come across as his cheerleader Will (sorry, but it's true)
I'm not knocking his development of a previous backwater, I've always questioned his yardstick. Think Edwards, O'Connor and further away Fred Rouhling.
But this takes away from an otherwise excellent thread.
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Just to clarify, I'm trying to keep the list focused on people who have done E9/E7 or harder, not listing out every single ascent. A couple of ascents per person is enough for my liking (preferably on stuff that's established at the grade).
Fair enough, but Nick Dixon deserves more than one route next to his name.
Agreed, Nick's a total legend! Added his FAs of thousand setting suns and gribin wall climb.
Thanks for all the suggestions for the women, I've added them all in (other than Naomi B, anyone got anything specific?)
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Possibly unpopular opinion; is Unfamiliar E7 with pads?
Having tried it (but not done it!) I think this is better classified as a highball with some gear for the top, assuming you use pads.
Another one for debate: Robin Barker and Sean Myles for Captain Invincable at Burbage South. I know it was originally E8 but given the lack of repeats, TRandall thought it was E9 (I belayed him and he was huffing and puffing), and it's another one I haven't done but have tried (on TR, couldn't do some of the moves after s couple of visits), I think F8b was bandied about, surely it's E9?
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Thanks for all the suggestions for the women, I've added them all in (other than Naomi B, anyone got anything specific?)
Three in a week for Naomi a few years back
https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2014/05/three_e7s_in_a_week_for_naomi_buys-68911
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Possibly unpopular opinion; is Unfamiliar E7 with pads?
Having tried it (but not done it!) I think this is better classified as a highball with some gear for the top, assuming you use pads.
Another one for debate: Robin Barker and Sean Myles for Captain Invincable at Burbage South. I know it was originally E8 but given the lack of repeats, TRandall thought it was E9 (I belayed him and he was huffing and puffing), and it's another one I haven't done but have tried (on TR, couldn't do some of the moves after s couple of visits), I think F8b was bandied about, surely it's E9?
On a similar theme I wonder whether Marbellous at Stanage is due a bump to E9? I guess Bransby must have put a bit of time in (on the quest to tick stanage) and he's no punter.
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Is Heartbeat City at Rylstone still thought to be E8? It'd be nice if Dave Pegg made the list.
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On a similar theme I wonder whether Marbellous at Stanage is due a bump to E9? I guess Bransby must have put a bit of time in (on the quest to tick stanage) and he's no punter.
Ah, you've reminded me of John Welford doing Mother of Pearl; if we're considering Marbellous for E9, the MoP must be
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Is Heartbeat City at Rylstone still thought to be E8? It'd be nice if Dave Pegg made the list.
Still E8. Never heard any differing opinion aside from the obvious that it's a complete horrorshow.
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Is Heartbeat City at Rylstone still thought to be E8? It'd be nice if Dave Pegg made the list.
Still E8. Never heard any differing opinion aside from the obvious that it's a complete horrorshow.
I heard a pebble snapped or something! Which does add to the terror!
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It'd be nice if Dave Pegg made the list.
MaDMAn is any case an utter nightmare and well worth E8.
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Mary Jenner has also done Bleed in Hell.
Lucy Mitchell - Divided Years
Lucinda Whittaker - End of the Affair
Anna Taylor - numerous E7’s
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Neil Furniss did Meshuga, assuming you keeping it in (in Cheque's film).
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Glenda Huxter - The Bells The Bells
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Open to suggestions on what to do with highballs. Andy Earl is one who springs to mind here, stuff like The Prow and The Dark Side seems pretty full value without pads, but then these are typically done with pads nowadays.
:worms: :worms: :worms: we're gonna need a bigger can! Pad protection is universal but the vast majority of relevant E9s were either done before them or graded without them (there's photos of a few pads in shot for The Dark Side), so good luck sorting all that out.
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Andy, to clarify the cutoff for men is E9 so Dave Pegg isn't currently on the list (despite having some wild lines to his name).
Another one for debate: Robin Barker and Sean Myles for Captain Invincable at Burbage South. I know it was originally E8 but given the lack of repeats, TRandall thought it was E9 (I belayed him and he was huffing and puffing), and it's another one I haven't done but have tried (on TR, couldn't do some of the moves after s couple of visits), I think F8b was bandied about, surely it's E9?
I wonder whether the grade of this has been affected by the state of the pegs? I chatted to Tom about it a while ago and got the impression the pegs weren't up to much, but maybe they were in a better state for the FA? Even then 8b seems pretty chunky for E8.
Thanks for the link to Naomi B's E7 spate, added those in.
Mary Jenner has also done Bleed in Hell.
Lucy Mitchell - Divided Years
Lucinda Whittaker - End of the Affair
Anna Taylor - numerous E7’s
Good shout springchicken, added them in. Women's list is starting to look a bit healthier now.
Neil Furniss did Meshuga, assuming you keeping it in (in Cheque's film).
Added him. I was only joking about the Meshuga downgrade (silly in joke about keen roof being popular, and therefore due a downgrade). I don't have an opinion on how hard Meshuga is.
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Open to suggestions on what to do with highballs. Andy Earl is one who springs to mind here, stuff like The Prow and The Dark Side seems pretty full value without pads, but then these are typically done with pads nowadays.
:worms: :worms: :worms: we're gonna need a bigger can! Pad protection is universal but the vast majority of relevant E9s were either done before them or graded without them (there's photos of a few pads in shot for The Dark Side), so good luck sorting all that out.
True, but pads vary a lot in how much difference they make to a route. They might bring an E9 down to E8. Some routes they turn into boulder problems - so it's case by case really.
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Glenda Huxter - The Bells The Bells
Didn't Nick Bullock mention this in a Jam Crack? Am I right in thinking Glenda onsighted it?!
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Yes Glenda on-sighted The Bells The Bells - awesome effort.
Other women who’ve O/S E7 include:-
Lucy Creamer
Hazel
Emma
Karin
Maddie?
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Tim emmet, muy caliente (and possibly more in n Wales)
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Been Heason - muy caliente and Oz Bound
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Didn’t Birkett repeat To Hell and Back on Hells Lum (E10)? Got a feeling he was a bit dismissive of the grade though.
Here you go - confirmation from UKC.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/features/dave_birkett_the_weekend_warrior-8532
Also, didn’t Bransby repeat Baron Greenback at Wimberry? And some others for Jordan - Widdop Wall, French Duke at Earl, maybe some more? You could also add Widdop Wall for John Dunne. And Dynamics of Change for Nige. And Adrian Berry repeated Big Issue I think.
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Been Heason - muy caliente and Oz Bound
And Lonely Heart.
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Thanks for all the suggestions for the women, I've added them all in (other than Naomi B, anyone got anything specific?)
Three in a week for Naomi a few years back
https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2014/05/three_e7s_in_a_week_for_naomi_buys-68911
I have done a fair few E7's over the years, including Birdsong, Gathering Sun, Snap Decision and Deathwatch, also a first ascent (Overlooked at Newchurch). Can't remember what else off the top of my head! Also done My Piano, which is hovering somewhere between E7/8 these days I think, depending on the current state of the pegs. While we're at it, you never put me on the 7C list either....
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Neil Furniss did Meshuga, assuming you keeping it in (in Cheque's film).
Added him. I was only joking about the Meshuga downgrade (silly in joke about keen roof being popular, and therefore due a downgrade). I don't have an opinion on how hard Meshuga is.
Just in case you're being serious, Keen Roof isn't a candidate for a downgrade because lots of people have done it, it's because a very significant number of the people who have done it say it should be downgraded. I think the beta has changed from when it was first done?
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Good lists Remus, couple I can think of off the top of my head:
Jacob Cook did first ascent of The Lizard King at Ilkley a while back, and Michaela Tracey has done Point Blank.
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Open to suggestions on what to do with highballs. Andy Earl is one who springs to mind here, stuff like The Prow and The Dark Side seems pretty full value without pads, but then these are typically done with pads nowadays.
:worms: :worms: :worms: we're gonna need a bigger can! Pad protection is universal but the vast majority of relevant E9s were either done before them or graded without them (there's photos of a few pads in shot for The Dark Side), so good luck sorting all that out.
True, but pads vary a lot in how much difference they make to a route. They might bring an E9 down to E8. Some routes they turn into boulder problems - so it's case by case really.
Andy, yes. Case by case basis.
In reality, this is the case for the other debate re knee pads. This time the other unpopular question re bouldering pads.
The grade really does need to reflect the precise details of how a route has been climbed.
This needs to include all sorts of pre-ascent preparation.
It's so much harder to "go for it" when you know there are no "shit out" options. I think this is important regarding pads. People commonly try to argue that "it's still scary.." etc etc, but having them there - and sometimes in huge stacks - makes the important distinction between whether the decision to "go for it" is made or not. For me, something like Ulysses at Stanage is the obvious example.
Glenda Huxter - The Bells The Bells
Didn't Nick Bullock mention this in a Jam Crack? Am I right in thinking Glenda onsighted it?!
The only photos I've seen of Glenda on The Bells, she's had the high wires in The Cad clipped.
I had a brief look at The Bells, and put some poor tapes on spikes at roughly the same level that you make the traverse out right. I asked Andy Pollitt about this, and he said he'd found some small wires at the end of the traverse. I hadn't seen anything there when I got there, which meant the climbing to the peg would have been unprotected. I've heard of other people putting gear in the Cad, higher than the point where you leave it. Makes a massive difference.
The question of prior knowledge is also interesting. Grimer's comments in Hard Grit, about Seb taking the fall on Parthian, come to mind. I think it's a good case to make about the fall, to say "Maybe that's the E9..". The inference being, that on subsequent ascents, people can benefit a great deal from the experience of other climbers, who've maybe tested the "survivability" of a route.
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Found by googling 'female' 'E7' site:www.ukclimbing.com and 'female' 'E8' site:www.ukclimbing.com
Lucy Creamer did Slab and Crack at Curbar in 2007
https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/features/uk_trad_2007-797
Katherine Schirrmacher headpointed Balance it is at Burbage South in 2007
https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2007/04/balance_it_is_for_schirrmacher-36038
Katy Whittaker has done Masters Edge and Kaluza Klein in 2008
+ Braille Trail in 2009 + Knockin' on Heaven's door in 2013
https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2009/02/katy_whittaker_-_braille_trail_-_e7_6c-45873
Subsequent searching revealed Airlie Anderson did the first female ascent of Master’s Edge, making use of a mattress to pad the start for which she received some criticism.
Lucinda Whittaker (nea Hughes) did end of the affair in 2010.
Interview here https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2010/11/lucinda_whittaker_-_gritstone_e8-58675
Natalie Berry did Dalriada on The Cobbler (E7 or E8?) around 2015
She also was David McLeod's partner for the fisrt ascent of 'Old Boy Racer' E8 5b, 7a, 6b on Ruabhal, St Kilda; It doesn't appear that she led the crux pitch.
Emma Twyford has headpointed Rare Lychen in 2013, Impact day in 2015, then 'Do you know where your children are' and Chupacabrae in 2020
https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2020/09/chupacabra_e89_6c_by_emma_twyford-72478
https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2020/08/do_you_know_where_your_children_are_e8_6c_by_emma_twyford-72437
https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2013/10/emma_twyford_climbs_e9-68419
Karin Magog climbed Bleed in Hell in 2010
https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2010/04/e8_for_karin_magog-53060
Mary Jenner also climbed bleed in hell in 2010
She has also climbed in Inferno E7, in 2006, alos at Bowderstone crag
https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2010/04/e8_for_mary_jenner_-_bleed_in_hell-52774
Anna Taylor has climbed "My Halo (E7 6b) in the Llanberis slate quarries, without the mid-height bolt; Obsession Fatale (E8 6b) at the Roaches; Disorderly Conduct (E8 6c) at Reecastle Crag; and the first ascent of Priceless (E7 6b) at Thrang Cragshttps://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2012/05/good_day_at_nesscliffe_for_pearson_-_e8_e8_e9-67151 in Langdal"
https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/press/berghaus_aims_high_as_trad_climber_anna_taylor_joins_the_team-12242
Is Caroline Ciavalini included? she's elgible for a UK passport if she wants one.
She did Requiem at Dumbarton in 2014, and the Quarryman in 2018
She onsighted Hindenburg E7 in 2012, and redpointed my piano and the jackals (e8) on the same trip.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2012/05/good_day_at_nesscliffe_for_pearson_-_e8_e8_e9-67151
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Didn’t Birkett repeat To Hell and Back on Hells Lum (E10)? Got a feeling he was a bit dismissive of the grade though.
Here you go - confirmation from UKC.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/features/dave_birkett_the_weekend_warrior-8532
Thanks for the link :) Added Dave B's ascent to the list.
Also, didn’t Bransby repeat Baron Greenback at Wimberry? And some others for Jordan - Widdop Wall, French Duke at Earl, maybe some more? You could also add Widdop Wall for John Dunne. And Dynamics of Change for Nige. And Adrian Berry repeated Big Issue I think.
I've added a few of those in, but generally Im not going to bother adding lots of stuff where people have multiples at a grade. The list is much easier to maintain if it's just 'how hard has this person climbed' rather than a complete list of all E9s or harder.
I have done a fair few E7's over the years, including Birdsong, Gathering Sun, Snap Decision and Deathwatch, also a first ascent (Overlooked at Newchurch). Can't remember what else off the top of my head! Also done My Piano, which is hovering somewhere between E7/8 these days I think, depending on the current state of the pegs. While we're at it, you never put me on the 7C list either....
Thanks for the detail, really appreciate it! Interesting you mention My Piano, I think this is a tricky one as from my understanding the gear has changed quite a bit over time (pegs as you mentioned, pretty sure the big cam is a lot better than it used to be, and a friend of mine found a hand placed beak that makes the start a lot safer).
Sorry about missing you off the 7C list, my bad! Would you mind listing a few things out? Had a quick look through the thread and could only find a vague mention about tourniquet?
Jacob Cook did first ascent of The Lizard King at Ilkley a while back, and Michaela Tracey has done Point Blank.
Good knowledge. Anyone remember a date for when Michaela did point blank? The usual UKC news reports are failing to turn up any clues.
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And Adrian Berry repeated Big Issue I think.
This and Gaz Parry’s (and Steve Mac’s) ascents were with preplaced gear. Doesn’t affect Steve going on the list though.
Off topic maybe but John Dunne’s ascent comes with a question mark if you believe the locals who were there on the day :worms:
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Neil Carson & others Mission Impossible
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Monkey boy uncharacteristically did Meshuga.
Tom Briggs did Partheon.
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These mentions make good reference for future dates, why not make use of all these in the actual list and have it up to date and informative?
It also gave me a chance to remember what I'd actually done..
Widdop Wall, felt E10 in comparison to to the other things I did and played on at the time and most likely is.
French duke.
Loaded in the guide as e8 but Probably a safe E9 but really hard climbing.
Muy caliante.
Talbot horizons.
Hasty Sin Oot Ert Hoonds?
Final round.
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Jules Lines has done E10: hold fast, hold true.
E9 for Robbie Phillips with Achemine.
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Didn’t Birkett repeat To Hell and Back on Hells Lum (E10)? Got a feeling he was a bit dismissive of the grade though.
Here you go - confirmation from UKC.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/features/dave_birkett_the_weekend_warrior-8532
Thanks for the link :) Added Dave B's ascent to the list.
Also, didn’t Bransby repeat Baron Greenback at Wimberry? And some others for Jordan - Widdop Wall, French Duke at Earl, maybe some more? You could also add Widdop Wall for John Dunne. And Dynamics of Change for Nige. And Adrian Berry repeated Big Issue I think.
I've added a few of those in, but generally Im not going to bother adding lots of stuff where people have multiples at a grade. The list is much easier to maintain if it's just 'how hard has this person climbed' rather than a complete list of all E9s or harder.
I have done a fair few E7's over the years, including Birdsong, Gathering Sun, Snap Decision and Deathwatch, also a first ascent (Overlooked at Newchurch). Can't remember what else off the top of my head! Also done My Piano, which is hovering somewhere between E7/8 these days I think, depending on the current state of the pegs. While we're at it, you never put me on the 7C list either....
Thanks for the detail, really appreciate it! Interesting you mention My Piano, I think this is a tricky one as from my understanding the gear has changed quite a bit over time (pegs as you mentioned, pretty sure the big cam is a lot better than it used to be, and a friend of mine found a hand placed beak that makes the start a lot safer).
Sorry about missing you off the 7C list, my bad! Would you mind listing a few things out? Had a quick look through the thread and could only find a vague mention about tourniquet?
Jacob Cook did first ascent of The Lizard King at Ilkley a while back, and Michaela Tracey has done Point Blank.
Good knowledge. Anyone remember a date for when Michaela did point blank? The usual UKC news reports are failing to turn up any clues.
I've not done Tourniquet (it is on my wishlist!) but climbed multiple 7C's. Not Bad Dave the only one this year, did a few last year including Ben's Roof (with kneebars). Need to pull my finger out and get on something harder this year.
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Katy Forrester also did Dawes Rides A Shovelhead as the first female ascent and it apparently got downgraded to E7 straight after...
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And Adrian Berry repeated Big Issue I think.
This and Gaz Parry’s (and Steve Mac’s) ascents were with preplaced gear. Doesn’t affect Steve going on the list though.
Off topic maybe but John Dunne’s ascent comes with a question mark if you believe the locals who were there on the day :worms:
Emma Twyford did this August 2018 too
https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2018/08/the_big_issue_e9_6c_by_emma_twyford-71689
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Emma Twyford did this August 2018 too
https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2018/08/the_big_issue_e9_6c_by_emma_twyford-71689
Good shout. And Matt Helliker last year too - he needs adding.
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I thought Stevie Haston had done E9 at some point, but on rereading it seems his E9s are now thought to be E8.
Stevie Haston did the first ascent of Melody at Craig Dorys which he gave E9 to in 2005. In 2011 it was repeated by Nic Bullock and may be better described with the HXS grade, the UKC report mentions that Nic placed additional pegs, but removed them before the ascent :worms:
https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2011/09/nick_bullock_-_2nd_ascent_of_hxse9_on_craig_dorys-63923
https://dmmclimbing.com/Journal/September-2011/Dorys-E9-tour-de-force-repeated
Also at Craig Dorys, Stevie did the FA of Nightstalker in 2009 which was reported as E9; the route was repeated in 2014 by Oli Grounsel and Benno Wagner who thought it was E8
https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2014/03/night_stalker_hxse8_gets_2nd+3rd_ascents-68819
Mick Lovatt repeated Melody in 2019, and Nightstalker around the same time as well - the article containing an interview with him gives both E8 https://www.climber.co.uk/news/news/lovatt-safe-as-milk-at-craig-doris/
Stevie also flashed green spit, 8b crack ?E8
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And Adrian Berry repeated Big Issue I think.
This and Gaz Parry’s (and Steve Mac’s) ascents were with preplaced gear. Doesn’t affect Steve going on the list though.
Good knowledge, I've added a note to the relevant ascents.
Off topic maybe but John Dunne’s ascent comes with a question mark if you believe the locals who were there on the day :worms:
Sounds like some beans to spill, any more details?
Neil Carson & others Mission Impossible
Good shout, added them in.
Monkey boy uncharacteristically did Meshuga.
Tom Briggs did Partheon.
Excellent knowledge shark, thanks.
These mentions make good reference for future dates, why not make use of all these in the actual list and have it up to date and informative?
I do try and record quite a few ascents but it makes keeping the list up to date quite tricky. Generally I'm aiming to record stuff that's historically interesting, so an early E9 repeat is much more likely to get on there than Caff (i.e. prolific trad wad) doing Meshuga.
It also gave me a chance to remember what I'd actually done..
Widdop Wall, felt E10 in comparison to to the other things I did and played on at the time and most likely is.
French duke.
Loaded in the guide as e8 but Probably a safe E9 but really hard climbing.
Muy caliante.
Talbot horizons.
Hasty Sin Oot Ert Hoonds?
Final round.
Interesting on WIddop Wall, I've upgraded it based on your thoughts. Also added in a few more of the E9s.
I've not done Tourniquet (it is on my wishlist!) but climbed multiple 7C's. Not Bad Dave the only one this year, did a few last year including Ben's Roof (with kneebars). Need to pull my finger out and get on something harder this year.
Nice, good effort! I've added in Ben's Roof so you're on the list.
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Thanks for the searching submax, I've added in relevant stuff for people but haven't included everything (i.e. multiples at the same grade for people).
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Andy Pollitt - Knockin’ on Heaven’s Door
Ben Tetler - as above, solo
Mia Stacey - Janus, Pacific Ocean Wall Direct (both E7)
Nic Sellers is spelt Sellers, not Sellars.
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Only one L in Ulrich.
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Wojciech Szymanowicz for Rewind?
Mark Edwards gave it E10 but his grading is questionable.
Woj declined to comment on the trad grade but thought it around 8a/+ with a bold start (albeit a safe-ish crux). I know he has flashed or done other E8s very quickly, whereas Rewind took him a lot of work. Based on this, I would guess from the comfort of my armchair that Rewind is likely to be E9.
Woj is Polish but has been resident here well over a decade - I think long-term UK residents were included on the other lists?
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I think Ken Palmer should go on for repeating Question Mark - although did he suggest it might only be E8? Don’t know if he’s done others?
If Ken goes on the list for Question Mark, then Mark Edwards should go on too as the first ascentionist.
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Anyone remember a date for when Michaela did point blank? The usual UKC news reports are failing to turn up any clues.
On or about 05/08/2018, accurate to ± 2 days.
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First, a few for the list.
I think Lucinda Whittaker has also HP'd Countdown to Disaster E8, Ilkley.
Hazel F, other routes at Dyers? Walk of life, Once upon a time?
Airlie for Beginner's Mind E8.
Ghost Train, E7 Stennis Ford, for Lucy Creamer too.
Remus, I'm presuming the list doesn't include just the "hardest" routes climbed in category by each climber.
By men..
Face Mecca for both Dawes and Dixon. The Zone (FA) for Arran.
The Gresh, Indian Face. Same for the Cloud + lots others?
Couple of points.
Also worth considering, is the eternal debate of how on-sight grades tally with HP grades. For instance, Vickers climbed quite a bit on-sight @ E7/8 IIRC. Including information like that would make the list more representative, in my opinion.
Also, I think there's too wide a gap between E7 for women/E9 for men. It doesn't feel very representative of where the top end women are. Same for the other lists too, Eg 8a women/8c men.
I reckon you've got your work cut out with this one! ;D
Further edit, and :worms: Katy Whittaker bouldered out The Angels' Share above pads. As a ground up, but with "good pro", what's that worth? Probably as hard as HP'ing many E7s, but harder to decide to have a go, doing it that way. (Thoughts Adam?) And yes, I do think it's worth considering the grade of the ascent. Johnny for the first ascent of the same.. above twigs and rocks. Shane Ohly for the second ascent.
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Neil Dickson. Quetzalcóatl E9. Lundy.
Separately, would be interesting to hear how McHaffe feels his on-sight of Masters compares with his experience on the other routes?
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I'm reluctant to put my head above the parapet on this, as I only tried it once, but I'd be a bit surprised if Marbellous deserves E9 - basically because I found I could do the crux, which surprised me even at the time, being pretty anti-style for me. The crux is well protected and getting there across the hand traverse is not horrific ... but perhaps it is when you try and put it all together? I thought I read it's super reachy for Ben?
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I think same as sport you should have significant onsight and flash recorded too.
Not that uncharacteristic for me to do Meshuga Shark, I did a fair few routes over that winter as it was too warm and damp for bouldering. Also hard grit routes are mostly just boulders in the sky.
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DT - Remus has said couple of times its not an exhaustive list of every ascent, its a list of people.
Secondly if the grade cut offs for women are too low, why aren't the womens lists much longer than the mens?
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DT - Remus has said couple of times its not an exhaustive list of every ascent, its a list of people.
Secondly if the grade cut offs for women are too low, why aren't the womens lists much longer than the mens?
Maybe the men's grade cut off is too low?
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Maybe the men's grade cut off is too low?
An E10 and up list would save Remus a lot of time!
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This and Gaz Parry’s (and Steve Mac’s) ascents were with preplaced gear. Doesn’t affect Steve going on the list though.
Good knowledge, I've added a note to the relevant ascents.
Personally, i'd scratch them unless all other ascents on the list are justified with exactly how they were climbed. Not sure why it became ok to treat this route differently from any other well protected sport style trad route. Without placing gear it's just an 8a/+ clip up.
Off topic maybe but John Dunne’s ascent comes with a question mark if you believe the locals who were there on the day :worms:
Sounds like some beans to spill, any more details?
Apparently there was a photographer and various others hanging around at the top waiting for him to go for it. Got darker and darker (late afternoon/early evening ascents are best once the sun's been on it) until the point when they all deemed it was too dark to get photos or realistically climb it so they left. JD came into the pub an hour later and said he'd done it. Belayed by his girlfriend at the time.
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Tim Emmett has done 'The Path' 5.14R in Canada, unsure what the trad grade would ?E9
https://gripped.com/news/tim-emmett-and-read-macadam-send-the-path-5-14r-in-rockies/
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Not that uncharacteristic for me to do Meshuga Shark...
Thanks for putting me straight. I’ll add it to the list. Ben Moon is an alpinist at heart, Ned is crap on a fingerboard.. 😉
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Did any e9’s (men) or e7’s (women) get done during the ‘snowballing’ year? Just to add to the :worms:
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Did any e9’s (men) or e7’s (women) get done during the ‘snowballing’ year? Just to add to the :worms:
Superstition and Simba's pride got done, but they're only E8
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Okay remus so all you have to do is factor in:
Historical mis-grading
Grade creep
Ego-driven sandbagging / down-grading / inflated grades / "harder than X but not given a grade"
Accurate translation from YDS and French grades
Pre-placed gear
Pads
Snowballing
Fair comparisons between Lleyn HXSes and Northumberland highballs
Rumours, speculation and dubious claims
...and you'll have a good proper reliable list :2thumbsup:
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I'm not sure if I'd include any highballs at all. To me, it's a separate discipline and very difficult to compare with true trad climbing. Obviously things like Marrowbone Jelly should still make the (ladies) list if they were done in the old style.
The split grade is the way to go when trying to put numbers on things i.e. Font 6C (E6 6b). If people can try and have the bouldering grade be an accurate reflection of pure difficulty, without letting fear affect their judgement, then we might be able to see some sense emerging around which ones are hard and which ones aren't. Currently the suggested grades are absolutely all over the place (Font 7B for Great Flake ffs).
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Further edit, and :worms: Katy Whittaker bouldered out The Angels' Share above pads. As a ground up, but with "good pro", what's that worth? Probably as hard as HP'ing many E7s, but harder to decide to have a go, doing it that way. (Thoughts Adam?) And yes, I do think it's worth considering the grade of the ascent. Johnny for the first ascent of the same.. above twigs and rocks. Shane Ohly for the second ascent.
My opinion on hard trad isn't worth much because, well because I've never done or even attempted any. I don't think I've ever even tried an E5.
But Angel's Share is just a high boulder with pads.
With I think 4 pads, we took a few falls from the top left foot rockover and it's absolutely fine. It's a predictable fall straight down on to a good landing. You don't have to get in to a trad mindset.
It would be a different game above a single, thin pad but I expect most padded ascents will have more pads than us, not less.
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suggested grades are absolutely all over the place (Font 7B for Great Flake ffs).
Great flake is Font 6B at most.
Not that I am remotely bothered, but surely a trad list would be better on the 'onsight/flash' grade. Drop it to E8 for men and maybe keep it to E7 for women?
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suggested grades are absolutely all over the place (Font 7B for Great Flake ffs).
Great flake is Font 6B at most.
I agree that if you isolated the crux it would be max Font 6B but you've got quite a bit of steep jug hauling to get there. I figured that this might stray into PE territory for someone climbing that grade so udged the grade up a bit.
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suggested grades are absolutely all over the place (Font 7B for Great Flake ffs).
Great flake is Font 6B at most.
Not that I am remotely bothered, but surely a trad list would be better on the 'onsight/flash' grade. Drop it to E8 for men and maybe keep it to E7 for women?
There’d be fewer than 10 climbers on each list I would’ve thought.
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suggested grades are absolutely all over the place (Font 7B for Great Flake ffs).
Great flake is Font 6B at most.
Not that I am remotely bothered, but surely a trad list would be better on the 'onsight/flash' grade. Drop it to E8 for men and maybe keep it to E7 for women?
There’d be fewer than 10 climbers on each list I would’ve thought.
Which is telling in itself.
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What, that it’s harder to on sight an E8 than head point an E9? That’s pretty obvious. What’s more interesting might be how many men have on-sighted E7 and women E5? I consider them to be equivalent, more or less (to E9/E7 headpoints). It depends where one’s strength/focus lies. Caff is THE man for onsighting, I dare say MacLeod has done more hard headpoints than any other Brit male?
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What, that it’s harder to on sight an E8 than head point an E9? That’s pretty obvious.
You're right, of course, it's not exactly a revelation. I would imagine both the E7/E5 onsight lists would be pretty long.
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Maybe. There’s a lot more grey area around on-sight/flash/GU/highball/soft Welsh grades/upgrades/multi-pitch/first ascents/peg clipped out left/“Welsh on-sight”/80s on-sight than headpoints with ropes where you’ve put the gear in. IMO.
:worms: :worms: :worms:
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There’s a lot more grey area
That's why any attempt at a trad list, however defined, is probably futile. With hardest sport you've either redpointed a grade or you haven't.
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Ghost Train, E7 Stennis Ford, for Lucy Creamer too.
Come on....
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DT - Remus has said couple of times its not an exhaustive list of every ascent, its a list of people.
Secondly if the grade cut offs for women are too low, why aren't the womens lists much longer than the mens?
It was one question among many other points. Sorry if it was wrong to try to clarify that.
The other relevant points being - as raised by quite a few others - is the essential bollocks of compiling a "list of people" without being able to accurately define on what basis "people" are included.
And that's no disrespect to Remus. Most of us look at lists of one form or another, who's done this, who's done that. It happens frequently; it's entertaining; it's possibly a good source of inspiration. However, hopefully - with help from an online forum, we can look at questions to ask, which might make it more meaningful.
Otherwise you just end up with all sorts of contrivances, simply to be included on a list!
What, that it’s harder to on sight an E8 than head point an E9? That’s pretty obvious. What’s more interesting might be how many men have on-sighted E7 and women E5? I consider them to be equivalent, more or less (to E9/E7 headpoints). It depends where one’s strength/focus lies. Caff is THE man for onsighting, I dare say MacLeod has done more hard headpoints than any other Brit male?
Quite. And being able to consider things like that, if possible, makes the process far more meaningful and informative :thumbsup:
Regarding the difference between grades for men/women, yes, I do think they should be closer, especially for trad, because I don't think we need such a strong gender division. If you consider the grade of higher end "trad" routes, relative to the top sport grades that men/women have climbed, I think there's more opportunity for us all to operate on the same basis. The personal bias, is that I'd prefer to emphasise the opportunity for inclusion on an equal basis, rather than the division.
My opinion on hard trad isn't worth much because, well because I've never done or even attempted any. I don't think I've ever even tried an E5.
But Angel's Share is just a high boulder with pads.
With I think 4 pads, we took a few falls from the top left foot rockover and it's absolutely fine. It's a predictable fall straight down on to a good landing. You don't have to get in to a trad mindset.
It would be a different game above a single, thin pad but I expect most padded ascents will have more pads than us, not less.
Too easy to dismiss your own contribution!
You've made the point very well indeed - and it's relevance here.
Very often people want to negate or reduce the difference that pads make, and how you interpret it.
As an aside, I still think it's relevant to consider just how much your own approach to a route/boulder benefits from/is influenced by what others have done before.
The Promise at Burbage N is a great example of this!
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Ghost Train, E7 Stennis Ford, for Lucy Creamer too.
Come on....
:lol:
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Great flake is Font 6B at most.
Bollocks. I can flash 6Bs til the cows come home but failed to get up this ground-up.
After falling off from the crux 3 or 4 times I decided to save my ankles for the rest of my weekend visit to Yorkshire - it seemed a shame to risk smashing myself up on the first thing I tried after driving all the way from Cornwall.
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Ghost Train, E7 Stennis Ford, for Lucy Creamer too.
Come on....
:lol:
Is it my role to dispute the grade given?
As I recall, it was an on-sight effort. I'd doubted the grade, but accept your position that inclusion on the list is subject to the UKB assessment of the grade..
As a more general point, rather than looking at opportunities to put things down, I think it's really worth considering the difference in how the decision is made between trying something on-sight, and after any sort of prep or inspection to find out at what end of the grade a particular route is. This isn't just about how much harder it is.
If the route has been downgraded, and so doesn't warrant being included for that reason, then you could just say that.
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Fair point Dave.
Whether or not a route might subsequently be downgraded, the person who stood underneath it on any given day and decided to go for the onsight did so based what they believed to be the grade.
Onsight attempts at E7s are still comparatively rare and in any event I certainly wasn’t meaning to disparage anyone.
Despite this, inclusion on the list should presumably be based on the now accepted grade?
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Great flake is Font 6B at most.
Bollocks. I can flash 6Bs til the cows come home but failed to get up this ground-up.
After reading this back I think I sound like a bit of a twat. I still think Great Flake is harder than 6B though.
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Nice post from you, above.
Your other post about GF didn't seem particularly unreasonable.
Off topic-ish..
Longer boulder problems with several sections, will typically be given an overall grade. Maybe because of the length of GF, people have focused on the crux in isolation - as highlighted by Will above. Just thinking about why.
It's probably more relevant to consider how it's climbed, with pads or not.
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Julian Lines has done at least one. I'm trying to work out if Iain Small has, but he's maybe only up to E8.
Did Malc not do one at some point?
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Julian Lines has done at least one. I'm trying to work out if Iain Small has, but he's maybe only up to E8.
Did Malc not do one at some point?
Think Transcendence is his hardest and graded E8 although i think its thought of as stiff for E8 but more due to actual hard climbing than danger.
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I was thinking maybe a few other locals here too, but I think most have done E8.
Tim Rankin gave Perfect Vacuum E8/9, fresh can just open, split grades!
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Longer boulder problems with several sections, will typically be given an overall grade. Maybe because of the length of GF, people have focused on the crux in isolation - as highlighted by Will above. Just thinking about why.
It's probably more relevant to consider how it's climbed, with pads or not.
Yes I agree. Even leaving aside the added fear of the unknown when trying something ground-up, for a long problem with the crux near the top it must be harder to figure it out if you arrive there slightly tired each time, rather than trying the crux on a rope first.
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Dan discusses the difficulties of grading Transcendence at Back Bowden Doors over on UKC, it’s comprehensive and entertaining read.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2019/03/third_ascent_of_transcendence_e8_6c_by_dan_varian-71896
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How had I missed that? Great writing.
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I was thinking maybe a few other locals here too, but I think most have done E8.
Tim Rankin gave Perfect Vacuum E8/9, fresh can just open, split grades!
Gordon Lennox?
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I thought Gordy too, but can't find anything, that horse is too damn dark!
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Sure I've seen a picture of him on an E9 somewhere. I thought maybe in Red Wall Quarry but there appear not to be any E9s there...
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He's done all the hard routes up there up to 8c, but they are most definitely sport.
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I've consulted Lyons
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The fount of local knowledge says Gordon Lennox has done New Statesman, and probably more, but hasn't told anyone.
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Has Will Atkinson done E9 before he moved to Oz? Didnt he do that hard thing at Widdop?
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Good point, he's done a fair few E9s I think
EDIT: are they really E9 if you can reach the top of the crag with your feet on the ground still?!
EDIT EDIT: It appears he did Reservoir Dogs, which gets E8. Also I thought New Statesman was E9?! Oh well. Scratch those last two off the list.
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Has Will Atkinson done E9 before he moved to Oz? Didnt he do that hard thing at Widdop?
Reservoir Dogs? E8 I think. Jordan might be able to confirm.
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Also I thought New Statesman was E9
It’s E9 in the YMC guide.
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In which case reinstate both Gordon and Will! :2thumbsup:
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Also from that guidebook: Sean Myles- FA of Rodney Mullen.
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Thanks for the replies everyone, great to see! Bit busy with work at the mo but will be back on list-ifying in a day or two.
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Also from that guidebook: Sean Myles- FA of Rodney Mullen.
What grade do they give it?
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E9 7a. El Mocho repeat iirc??
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Yep, “Originally climbed with a peg pre-placed, then subsequently led placing gear on lead by both Miles (sic?) and Bransby”.
It describes it as having only had one repeat 20 years on which, given the book came out in 2014 and the FA date is March 1991 suggests that the Ilkley script was ready quite a long way in advance! Coming up to 30 years without a third ascensionist now?
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Also from that guidebook: Sean Myles- FA of Rodney Mullen.
What grade do they give it?
Seem to remember it was bog standard Myles E7. I can't really see E9 for it, maybe if you didn't bother with the hand placed peg but I don't think what it's graded for.
If I remember correctly (I might have even chatted to Sean about it really briefly) Sean first lead it with the peg pre placed (it's hand placed in a little pocket). He got some stick for this. He then led it again - climbed up, placed the peg, tried to carry on but fell off, lowered down, pulled the ropes then re led with the peg in. It got a weird write up in an earlier guide where they implied it hadn't had a proper ascent (this might have been before he led it the second time). When I did it I climbed up, placed the peg and then downclimbed to the ground, had a rest and then led it after (I don't think I had a go in between and fell off but I might have done).
I guess, ethically, my ascent counts as legit and you could argue both of Seans didn't quite match the best practice (although is a hand placed peg on grit ever going to be best practice). Personally I can't see much difference between them, and in fact it will have been physically harder the way Sean first did it as he actually clipped the pre placed peg on the lead go that he did the route.
Sorry this is a bit OT but can sometimes be good to get the facts (or a semblance of them) out there. Just to reiterate I had no problem with how Sean first climbed it - he was honest about what he had done, and I didn't set out to make the first 'proper' ascent of it or anything.
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Sam and Ed Hamer both done Meshuga
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Has Will Atkinson done E9 before he moved to Oz? Didnt he do that hard thing at Widdop?
Reservoir Dogs? E8 I think. Jordan might be able to confirm.
Slots well in at E8.
New statesman, funny one. Probably E8?
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Yep, “Originally climbed with a peg pre-placed, then subsequently led placing gear on lead by both Miles (sic?) and Bransby”.
It describes it as having only had one repeat 20 years on which, given the book came out in 2014 and the FA date is March 1991 suggests that the Ilkley script was ready quite a long way in advance! Coming up to 30 years without a third ascensionist now?
I tried it on a rope in September ‘99 with Nic Sellers and Richie Patterson. I can’t remember if Nic did it or went back and led it but IIRC we had the right sized peg (a lost arrow) and it slotted in remarkably well. Weird that it’s given E9 in the guidebook as it was E7 7a.
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I can get this changed in the select guide. Is it E7 7a for Rodney or 6c (though I'm sceptical as to whether it really matters about the English tech at this level)? And E8 for New Statesman? I think I've seen it talked about as E8 more than E9 nowadays.
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Will, it's not 7a. If that helps.
I should add, I was belaying Sean on Rodney Mullen.
Had to show him how to do it of course ;D :whistle: (R heel hook on aréte for RH slap again to good hold..)
The only debate was really over whether it was 8a sport.
I also don't understand how it could be considered that Sean's ascent wasn't in any way legit - other than for it being practiced etc first, and a re-climb. :shrug:
The peg (yes, Lost Arrow) was covered in tape to protect the rock, and placed on lead. It's effectively a camming device. The only problem was the bad rope burn Sean was getting on his leg when he fell off.
Should go back to do it!
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That'll do me. Thanks.
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Will, it's not 7a. If that helps.
Have you done it/been on it Dave? It’s probably 6c in the same way that Messiah is 6c.
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Will, it's not 7a. If that helps.
Have you done it/been on it Dave? It’s probably 6c in the same way that Messiah is 6c.
Sorry TB, edited my earlier post.
Yes, keen to go back! Great venue for not so cold conditions, so should still be in when the lockdown finishes .. hope.. fully..!
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Will, it's not 7a. If that helps.
Have you done it/been on it Dave? It’s probably 6c in the same way that Messiah is 6c.
Messiah is quite a good comparison. Both a tiny bit bold to get to gear and then a harder top. I would say Rodney is a bit more involved to get to the peg and the crux sequence is a little longer, maybe a grade harder (which fits with the original E6 grade for Messiah vs the original E7 for Rodney). It could be argued it's E8 for Rodney? It would be a hard ground up/flash - I couldn't of done it in that style at the time and I did do Messiah gu (2nd go?) a year later.
I also don't understand how it could be considered that Sean's ascent wasn't in any way legit - other than for it being practiced etc first, and a re-climb. :shrug:
It seemed pretty harsh at the time. I think the argument was it had pre-placed gear the first time and the second time was a yo-yo (although like I said I think the second time was after the guide had come out where the 'doubts'* were raised about the style of the original ascent, guess this was at least partly why Sean went back and re led it?)
I don't know why this route/ascent got called out so much, maybe because Sean was a peak raider ;D - if the same strict ethics were applied to other routes in Yorkshire (or elsewhere) we'd have to re write massive sections of history.
*I can't even remember what it said in the guide about it, I'm sure there was something, maybe in the history section at the back
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History section - "Originally graded 8a but with pre-placed protection, and a hanging rope, just in case! Still not led in "pure" style"
And the text in the main guide says "it still awaits a leader who can place the gear 'mid-dyno' and keep going. The true grade could be close to E10".
Well done El Mocho, E10 leader :)
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Post-lockdown Rodney Mullen send-train ahoy!!
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History section - "Originally graded 8a but with pre-placed protection, and a hanging rope, just in case! Still not led in "pure" style"
And the text in the main guide says "it still awaits a leader who can place the gear 'mid-dyno' and keep going. The true grade could be close to E10".
Well done El Mocho, E10 leader :)
Cool, E10 it is.
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Rodney Mullen IIRC was on an OTE front cover? Or maybe not.
Sean Myles led it with some ethical issue, obvs the pre-placed peg. He got some stick and, as i recall, went back and reled in a purer style.
Dave Mus (snr) was, I believe, one of the critics, and was then the YMC guidebook editor. I also think there was some Peak / Yorkshire rivalry involved.
SM wrote a letter to the mags (ah, nostalgia) and I remember the last line being something like "I can't believe tyou left my route out of the guide Dave." as DM had left RM out of the recently published Yorkshire Grit guide.
So ethical disputes, area rivalries, printed guides, letters to the mags... different times.
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Is it E7 7a for Rodney or 6c (though I'm sceptical as to whether it really matters about the English tech at this level)?
Good opportunity to lead a change from uk tech to sport grades for harder trad toutes?
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I'm surprised that was seen as so controversial. Sounds like small beer compared to all the frigs that were employed to get up Yorkshire limestone routes, none of which are questioned.
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Is it E7 7a for Rodney or 6c (though I'm sceptical as to whether it really matters about the English tech at this level)?
Good opportunity to lead a change from uk tech to sport grades for harder trad toutes?
IIRC Sean gave it straight 8a and got sufficient stick that he wrote an article to explain his reasoning. Basically, he said it's a redpoint.
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Is it E7 7a for Rodney or 6c (though I'm sceptical as to whether it really matters about the English tech at this level)?
Good opportunity to lead a change from uk tech to sport grades for harder trad toutes?
IIRC Sean gave it straight 8a and got sufficient stick that he wrote an article to explain his reasoning. Basically, he said it's a redpoint.
This is something I'd like to see happen but it will take time and a way to gather up the knowledge (the UKC database could make a start). The CC have done it with their Pembroke guide, giving all routes of E5 and above an accompanying sport grade. You could argue that for some gritstone routes (Slip n' Slide springs to mind) you'd be better off trying to give a bouldering grade, while others (Milky Way) would be better off with a sport grade. The CC have a huge advantage in doing it for Pembroke in that the hard routes there get more traffic than anywhere else. Bar a few notable exceptions, most routes in Yorkshire of, say, E5 and above see only a few disparate repeats. I imagine many are unrepeated.
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"it still awaits a leader who can place the gear 'mid-dyno' and keep going. The true grade could be close to E10".
Well done El Mocho, E10 leader :)
Cool, E10 it is.
Back around.
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I've been through the last few pages and added in anyone that was missing, plus a few bonus ascents that seemed interesting. Hopefully haven't done anything too controversial :lol:
Men https://climbing-history.org/list/6
Women https://climbing-history.org/list/7
Replies to a few points:
Men v women grade split: personally im mainly interested in recording significant stuff done by men and women. I think using the same criteria for men and women risks forgetting about lots of interesting ascents by women, and the current criteria seem to have produced a fairly manageable list, so I think I'll keep it as is for the moment.
[Pre placed gear on The Big Issue]
Personally, i'd scratch them unless all other ascents on the list are justified with exactly how they were climbed. Not sure why it became ok to treat this route differently from any other well protected sport style trad route. Without placing gear it's just an 8a/+ clip up.
Given their ascents are in a minority it's easier to just make a note about how they climbed it. Everyone knows it is poor style compared to placing the kit on lead and I want to avoid have to decide what counts as a valid ascent if it can be avoided.
Tim Emmett has done 'The Path' 5.14R in Canada, unsure what the trad grade would ?E9
https://gripped.com/news/tim-emmett-and-read-macadam-send-the-path-5-14r-in-rockies/
I've plucked E9 out of the air for this. Seems about right for safe-ish 8b+?
I've bumped transcendence up to E9. Malc is no soft touch and Dan V seems convinced it has some hard moves on it.
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Anyone fancy a punt on a grade for tribe?
https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2020/10/second_ascent_of_tribe_-_worlds_hardest_trad_route_-_by_james_pearson-72593
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Anyone fancy a punt on a grade for tribe?
https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2020/10/second_ascent_of_tribe_-_worlds_hardest_trad_route_-_by_james_pearson-72593
If you're suggesting safe-ish 8b+ is E9 then is it that hard to extrapolate?
safe-ish 8c-8c+ E10
safe-ish 9a-9a+ E11
safe-ish Culm steep slab E12, obvs
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Remus, I've just watched the fantastic video of Ryan on Sleepy Hollow - media linked to your thread.
I think that depth of information is really valuable. Could it be that your list becomes a go to place for media, as well as records of significant trad ascents?
For James Pearson, I think it would be better to include his other ascents too. Eg: Is Not Always Pasqua, The Groove, as well as The Walk of Life. And Harder Faster - especially as some of these are first ascents.
PS. agree with your comments about not wanting to be the judge of what constitutes a "valid ascent" etc. Also, in the context of your comments, I understand the grade split too.
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It would be really great if someone from Gen Z had a go at Dr Doolittle. Or maybe it needs an old skool crimper to come out of retirement? I mean it’s hiding in plain sight is it not? I’ve never heard of anyone trying it. The story of John Arran putting cut up credit cards into his shoes to make them stiffer makes you wonder whether it might be easier in shoes other than Boreals.
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Remus, I've just watched the fantastic video of Ryan on Sleepy Hollow - media linked to your thread.
I think that depth of information is really valuable. Could it be that your list becomes a go to place for media, as well as records of significant trad ascents?
Glad you enjoyed the vid Dave. Longer term Id definitely like to start filling it out with more content like that, and maybe even little essays about significant climbers/climbs/ascents. Think something like peak rock but more of an ongoing project than a one off.
Just need to find some more anoraks who are keen to get involved!
If I ever get round to it I was thinking it might be fun to put together some longer form pieces (long blog post style) based on some of the lists.
There's also the functionality to do a project like Ed G-S put together earlier this year (where you can search for problems and get beat vids), but it doesn't really fit under the 'climbing history' banner.
For James Pearson, I think it would be better to include his other ascents too. Eg: Is Not Always Pasqua, The Groove, as well as The Walk of Life. And Harder Faster - especially as some of these are first ascents.
Agreed, would be keen to add in some more of Jame's routes and problems as he's done a lot around the UK (pembroke onsights etc.)
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Didn't reliose there were vids attached. there goes a couple of hours. Wonder if you would be allowed to link to Reel Rock etc?
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Didn't reliose there were vids attached. there goes a couple of hours. Wonder if you would be allowed to link to Reel Rock etc?
If it's a public vid I can link in to a specific timestamp but if it's a payed vid it wont work (other than just taking you to somewhere you could pay for the full thing). If someone was feeling super keen they could go through and add all the stuff in stone love, committed etc.
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True enough, probably more effort than worth. Either way, a fantastic effort getting what you have together.
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Ed Booth got in touch on fb to help with the addition of a few ascents of Rare Lichen and Gribin Wall Climb
Men https://climbing-history.org/list/6
Women https://climbing-history.org/list/7
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Cool list. Niall McNair did the Dark Side a few years ago as a highball. Is that being discounted?
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I'm staying away from stuff done in a highball style for the moment. No doubt there's stuff done with pads that more than warrants a trad grade, but it's so hard to draw a sensible line somewhere about what's worth a trad grade and what's worth a bouldering grade.
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Anyone able to id the climber in this clip of Knockin on Heavens Door from consumed?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alHHobRndvY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG8jcH_uIms
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Dan Honeyman with me the very scared belayer.
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Dan Honeyman with me the very scared belayer.
Good knowledge, thanks! Not surprised you were scared, Knockin' is pretty close to the bottom of my 'routes Id want to belay someone on' list.
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And Dan near the bottom of ‘persons I’d want to belay ‘ list. Well back then anyway. He gave me an elbow to the temple falling off Unfamiliar and I could only eat soup for a week.
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:lol:
Belaying Dan stories are amazing.
First time I met Dan was bouldering at the Foundry. The next day he suggested we go climbing outside (I was a very green, led a couple is VS’s, climber). He had me belay him on Kaluza Klein...
“If I fall off just jump off this ledge”
Errrr ok....
He then proceeded to fall of the top, repeatedly...
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Can see why he and Tom hit it off! Sketch-fest!
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IIRC Sean gave it straight 8a and got sufficient stick that he wrote an article to explain his reasoning. Basically, he said it's a redpoint.
The CC have done it with their Pembroke guide, giving all routes of E56 and above an accompanying sport grade in their select guide only for only those route where it is known ... The CC Pembroke guidebook authors (Emma and Paul) have a huge advantage in worked really hard doing it for Pembroke by speaking with lots of locals and visitors alike and making a real effort ... Some of the popular hard routes [in Pembroke] get almost as much more traffic than anywhere else as the populous climbing areas of the Peak and Yorkshire. Bar a few notable exceptions, most routes in Yorkshire of, say, E5 and above see only a few disparate repeats. I imagine many are unrepeated. The popular hard routes in Peak/Yorkshire have loads of ascents much like the popular routes in Pembroke. There are unpopular routes in all areas...
Fixed some of your whinging for you Will
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His upper body was quite stacked so the elbow really had some force behind it. Seem to remember belaying him lobbing off some E6 at Stanage too with me belaying but can’t remember the route.
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Another blow to the head, or old age?
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Can't find it on his channel, but Irish Si's commentary after Dan sketches up Kaluza Klein (possibly with Nik belaying) is great....
"It's.....it's fucking raining...."
"You're a fucking tool."
"I'm not climbing with you again!"
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That was probably a couple of years later so not me belay h, but agree that the commentary is brilliant :lol:
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The drives to the crag were even more necky...
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IIRC Sean gave it straight 8a and got sufficient stick that he wrote an article to explain his reasoning. Basically, he said it's a redpoint.
The CC have done it with their Pembroke guide, giving all routes of E56 and above an accompanying sport grade in their select guide only for only those route where it is known ... The CC Pembroke guidebook authors (Emma and Paul) have a huge advantage in worked really hard doing it for Pembroke by speaking with lots of locals and visitors alike and making a real effort ... Some of the popular hard routes [in Pembroke] get almost as much more traffic than anywhere else as the populous climbing areas of the Peak and Yorkshire. Bar a few notable exceptions, most routes in Yorkshire of, say, E5 and above see only a few disparate repeats. I imagine many are unrepeated. The popular hard routes in Peak/Yorkshire have loads of ascents much like the popular routes in Pembroke. There are unpopular routes in all areas...
Fixed some of your whinging for you Will
:lol:
Will downgrading Pembroke now.
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IIRC Sean gave it straight 8a and got sufficient stick that he wrote an article to explain his reasoning. Basically, he said it's a redpoint.
The CC have done it with their Pembroke guide, giving all routes of E56 and above an accompanying sport grade in their select guide only for only those route where it is known ... The CC Pembroke guidebook authors (Emma and Paul) have a huge advantage in worked really hard doing it for Pembroke by speaking with lots of locals and visitors alike and making a real effort ... Some of the popular hard routes [in Pembroke] get almost as much more traffic than anywhere else as the populous climbing areas of the Peak and Yorkshire. Bar a few notable exceptions, most routes in Yorkshire of, say, E5 and above see only a few disparate repeats. I imagine many are unrepeated. The popular hard routes in Peak/Yorkshire have loads of ascents much like the popular routes in Pembroke. There are unpopular routes in all areas...
Fixed some of your whinging for you Will
:lol:
Will downgrading Pembroke now.
New years resolution 2022: downgrade France.
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Bit sad putting forward my girlfriend (again), but Ferdia has climbed E7s: Skye Wall, Free Stonehenge (with gear in), Power of the Darkside (as a highball), an 8+ in Sweden which I guess would be E7, maybe others.
Michelle McLoughlin does the FA of an E7 in that Owey film [edit - it's called Temple of Boom], and I think she's done others - Thing in the Forest maybe?
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Sad because you are a supportive bf? Or sad because she's a dark horse operator under the radarand hasn't been mentioned? Because both of those are pretty cool nowadays. You may need to recalibrate your coolometer Andy Moles.
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He's cool like dat, cool like dat
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Sad because you are a supportive bf? Or sad because she's a dark horse operator under the radarand hasn't been mentioned? Because both of those are pretty cool nowadays. You may need to recalibrate your coolometer Andy Moles.
Sad was the wrong word maybe, more that slight cringe of blowing someone else's trumpet when they wouldn't, y'know?
But while I'm at it, another woman who's climbed E7s is Harriet Ridley - Katie's Delight and Manhattan Highrise, possibly others.
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Holy shit, I'd lost touch with Harriet after I moved away from Durham and canned my FB/insta account. Bon effort!
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And Dan near the bottom of ‘persons I’d want to belay ‘ list. Well back then anyway. He gave me an elbow to the temple falling off Unfamiliar and I could only eat soup for a week.
I had similar (but very probably less visceral) feelings when belaying Jacob Cook. He could make belaying a safe sport climb feel like complicity with a "suicide by chop route". If he got tired, he'd skip bolts, just keep trucking, and routinely approach the belay with nothing clipped above half-way. In return for picking him up and ferrying him to the crag, I always just wanted a day of tedious belays in return for his support working my own project, instead I'd spend half the day stressed and mentally rehearsing scenarios of alerting the air ambulance and giving bad news to parents!
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Thanks Andy, good knowledge. I spotted on Harriet's insta feed that she did Mussel Beach this year so she's a new addition for the sport list too.
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I have fond memories of Jacob taking a big whipper on the bulge or whatever it is called at Kilnsey. Inspiring.
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Watching Jacob climb Urgent Action I'm pretty sure the last bolt he clipped was well below where it meets the Thumb :blink:
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Has Pete Robins done any E9s? Feel like he's got the chops but can't think of anything off the top of my head.
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He’s said in the past that he hasn’t, but I think that might be something to do with believing that rp’ing trad climbs with gear pre-placed isn’t properly climbing E9..
Obviously could. Flashed E8.
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I thought Neil Dyer must have done an E9, but I can't find any write up of him doing one.
He has climbed E8 in Squamish https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2017/08/tainted_love_-_new_squamish_e813d_corner_by_hazel_findlay-71227
He's soloed 8a on slate https://snowdoniamountainguides.com/untouchables-neil-dyer-solo/
He's on the sport list for doing Megalopia ... does anyone recall him doing an e9?
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Maybe one of the ones at Dyer's Lookout?
sorry.
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Has Pete Robins done any E9s? Feel like he's got the chops but can't think of anything off the top of my head.
He did Spinal Crack in Ogwen but downgraded it. Wouldn’t be surprised if it was E9.
Ding Dong Dyer hasn’t. The route above is called Spinal Crack cos Dyer broke his back trying for the FA.
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Various N Irish folk have done Divided Years.
Ricky Bell, Eddie Barbour, John McCune, Rory Cummings. Maybe others.
Ricky's also done that E9 slab at Fair Head, Long Runs the Fox, and I think Caff implied that Rathlin Effect should be E9 too.
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Ding Dong Dyer hasn’t. The route above is called Spinal Crack cos Dyer broke his back trying for the FA.
Which surely speaks of a ) the difficulty and b) the danger. Although you can break your back falling off a Diff.
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Ricky Bell's blog post on Long Run's the Fox here http://rickybel-fast.blogspot.com/2015/06/through-green-door-across-rubicon-and.html
Video here https://vimeo.com/187662062
Thoughts on Divided years here https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2008/06/divided_years_4th_ascent_-_ricky_bell-44788
Video of Jame's McHaffie's and Ryan Pasquill's GU attempts here https://vimeo.com/187316913
note the 5:10 knee pad.
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Pretty sure Eddie told me he thought E8 when he did it, but I might be misremembering... can find out if it's useful.
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Had to dry fingers about 4 times watching that slab.
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Pretty sure Eddie told me he thought E8 when he did it, but I might be misremembering... can find out if it's useful.
I think a few people have said maybe E8 or split grade, but I noticed it was on the list for others already.
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Si Moore has also done divided years https://vimeo.com/326685819
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Thanks for the knowledge everyone. I've left Divided years in at E9 for the moment. I've bumped Captain Invincible up to E9, Randall said 8b/+ when he did it, and with skanky pegs and RPs E8 would seem pretty tight. I've put Spinal Crack in at E9 for the mo (based on Doylo's opinion) which means we have 2 new entrants on the list (Geldard for the FA and Robins for the second ascent).
Pretty sure Eddie told me he thought E8 when he did it, but I might be misremembering... can find out if it's useful.
I'd be interested to hear his thoughts on the grade.
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Pretty sure Eddie told me he thought E8 when he did it, but I might be misremembering... can find out if it's useful.
I'd be interested to hear his thoughts on the grade.
[/quote]
https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2009/06/eddie_barbour_climbs_divided_years_e89_6c-47707
He said at the time split grade, whether that changed I don't know.
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Remus - Matt Helliker’s still missing off the list for Big Issue.
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Remus - Matt Helliker’s still missing off the list for Big Issue.
Good spot, I've added him in.
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Thanks for the knowledge everyone. I've left Divided years in at E9 for the moment. I've bumped Captain Invincible up to E9, Randall said 8b/+ when he did it, and with skanky pegs and RPs E8 would seem pretty tight. I've put Spinal Crack in at E9 for the mo (based on Doylo's opinion) which means we have 2 new entrants on the list (Geldard for the FA and Robins for the second ascent).
Pretty sure Eddie told me he thought E8 when he did it, but I might be misremembering... can find out if it's useful.
I'd be interested to hear his thoughts on the grade.
Not my opinion but there’s a rumour he downgraded it cos it was Jack Geldard’s route . :lol:
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Just been going through hard crack climbs that would get at least E9 to see if anyone's been missed.
Recovery Drink, 8c+ trad ?E10, Pete Whittaker in 2019 https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2019/08/third_ascent_of_recovery_drink_by_pete_whittaker-72032
Pura Pura, 8c+ trad ?E9/10, Tom Randall in 2014, https://tomrandallclimbing.wordpress.com/2014/06/30/the-pura-pura-project/
https://vimeo.com/99564444
Cobra Crack, 5.14b ?E9/10, Tom Randall and Pete Whittaker
I don't know whether you want to add Tom to the hard sport list for either of those ascents
Would you consider starting a hard trad ascents list - ascents of trad routes 8c+ or harder? I'd be happy to populate it.
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Good knowledge, thanks Submax.
For the sports list one of the criteria is that it has to be on bolts, makes the list easier to maintain.
Unfortunately a 'hard trad' (i.e. hard sport grades on trad) would be tricky to implement at the moment, as the way it's setup at the moment each route can only have one grade e.g. an E grade or a sport grade.
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Rachel Pearce has headpointed Meirionnydd at Moelwyn Bach (E7 6b). Jame MchHaffie may have done the first ascent recently.
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Rachel Pearce has headpointed Meirionnydd at Moelwyn Bach (E7 6b). Jame MchHaffie may have done the first ascent recently.
Good knowledge as per. I've updated the list.
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Stalking ukc logbooks it looks like someone may have ticked Muy Caliente at the weekend, anyone know who the mystery logger is?
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Angus Kille.
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Angus Kille.
Good knowledge, thanks.
Good skills on Point Blank by the way! Sounds like an amazing experience.
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Belaying Daphne on her first E7 (having skipped E3,E4, E5 and E6) whilst watching Angus going for it in slightly greasy conditions was up there with most stressful belay experiences I've had too! :o
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Remus - is the climbing history site just yours? I heard that Steve Lewis is also keeping an updated top climbers list and wondered whether that is something separate or you are collaborating?
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Remus - is the climbing history site just yours? I heard that Steve Lewis is also keeping an updated top climbers list and wondered whether that is something separate or you are collaborating?
Yes, it's just me at the mo though I've been tentatively trying to recruit other people who might be interested in contributing as there's lots of areas of climbing history I know very little about (shameless plug https://climbing-history.org/sign-up) and longer term it'll be much more interesting if there's multiple people contributing.
I hadn't heard about Steve's list, if you've got any contact details for him I'd be interested in chatting to him about it, Id be keen for a potential collaboration if he's up for it.
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Try messaging him via UKC. www.ukclimbing.com/user/profile.php?id=23072
If that doesn't work let me know and I'll get other contact details
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Megan Cosgrove has done Electrical Avenue, Crackoholic and Sista Bossen, all 8a, all in Bohuslän and all on gear. Should all be E7 at least.
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Ricky Bell's blog post on Long Run's the Fox here http://rickybel-fast.blogspot.com/2015/06/through-green-door-across-rubicon-and.html
Video here https://vimeo.com/187662062
https://vimeo.com/187316913
note the 5:10 knee pad.
That bit about the fox in the first vid is my highlight of the day.
Divided looks ace :2thumbsup:
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Ricky Bell's blog post on Long Run's the Fox here http://rickybel-fast.blogspot.com/2015/06/through-green-door-across-rubicon-and.html
Video here https://vimeo.com/187662062
The way Ricky holds it together on that slab is simply amazing
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Not sure this is the right place, but just watched this (decidedly average, but interesting to see historical footage) piece on Gullich as the greatest ever. Now, I revere Gullich as much as anyone, as a total legend. But....do the claims of this video stack up?
I'm sure I heard him say it was the first, 8b, first 8b+ (marc le menestrel) first 8c, 8c+ and 9a (Hubble?).
So, with the "revisionist" view of climbing grades, where does this stand?
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Is this the ascetionism vid? If so it's about right, or as close as you can get when talking about first of the grades.
https://climbing-history.org/climber/525/wolfgang-g%C3%BCllich
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At ye, that war the one. I guess I thought it could be just a shift of 1 year from all of his "firsts" to be not firsts. Not try to pull him down, just interested in the cold facts.