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the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: DAVETHOMAS90 on October 13, 2015, 08:30:57 pm
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Isn't the load on the fingers the same throughout the range of motion?
No not at all. It's much easier to hang in on the hold when you start with a kick. (I suspect that's because it takes about 0.6 seconds before the fingers reach 90% of maximal peak force (and about 2s to reach maximum peak force).)
Couldn't you achieve the same effect (e.g. 90% maximal peak force applied) by slowly lowering down onto the edge? The difference in difficulty between going from completely straight arm and bent then being about the shoulders, not fingers?
The force on the fingers will depend on the acceleration/deceleration of your body - i.e. upwards or lowering down.
If you pull with greater force, you will accelerate from rest - go up - more quickly. Conversely, yes, if you're trying to hold a small edge, you can reduce the load on your fingers by letting your body drop - say from a half-lock. Your body falls because you're trying to keep your body "up" with a force which is less than that of gravity acting on it.
In my earlier post, I wasn't highlighting the difference between starting bent/straight, though in practice there are certain mechanical difficulties which are harder to overcome from straight - hence the common "flick" when people start a one-arm from a straight hang. This flick requires additional acceleration to get the body past the weak spot, and hence a higher force. This is why "breaking the lock" is often a difficult sticking point on a hard problem.
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The higher acceleration that I have witnessed is generally because people's arms/shoulder etc. Are not strong enough to do a one armer, so are writhing around to gain momentum, but this obviously requires greater maximal finger strength than just doing a smooth slow one armer.
I filmed an attempt on each arm this evening, as square on as I could on the small campus rung. I managed to move marginally upwards from a bent arm and that was it. Will post up the exciting footage tomorrow
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screw one armers.
let's see some static one arm hangs.
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Some physicists or engineers will be able to give the correct answer but it seems like there'd be some complicated lever-arm differences between straight arm and slightly bent arm; so differences in force felt on fingers, elbow and shoulder?
Upon further reflection I realised that myself.
In biomechanics it seems the arm is a third-class lever (slides 25-26 on pg5) (http://www.kean.edu/~jeadams/docs/Kinesiology/Kines_Power_Points/Kines_PPT_PDF_Chap3.pdf) when the shoulder moves towards the hand (all the diagrams show a bicep curl but thats the same range of motion the arm is going through in a one-armer).
This presentation has some information on Biomechanics for Strength Training (http://www.slideshare.net/JayCholewa/biomechanics-for-strength-training).
This one mentions that the mechanical advantage is greatest at 90 degrees (figure 13 pg 14) (http://wweb.uta.edu/faculty/cray/Courses/Biomechanics%20222.pdf).
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http://vimeo.com/142346917
Me flailing trying to just stay remotely face on
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Isn't the load on the fingers the same throughout the range of motion?
No not at all. It's much easier to hang in on the hold when you start with a kick. (I suspect that's because it takes about 0.6 seconds before the fingers reach 90% of maximal peak force (and about 2s to reach maximum peak force).)
Couldn't you achieve the same effect (e.g. 90% maximal peak force applied) by slowly lowering down onto the edge? The difference in difficulty between going from completely straight arm and bent then being about the shoulders, not fingers?
Maybe. I just know from experience that the only way I can achieve a "one arm hang" on a campus rung is by doing a one arm with kick start. There's no way I can do it hanging straight under the rung as for a normal two arm. And as we all know it is way easier to hang a rung (with two hands) on bent arms and leaning back a bit (I usually count that as the point of failure when finger boarding for time)
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http://vimeo.com/142346917
Me flailing trying to just stay remotely face on
Joble's done 8B+ and there's no fuckin way he can do that
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To go back to the original question. One arming huge* edges is not a very reliable measure of finger strength.
* Huge in the context of an average Fb 8B
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Thought I'd add to the conversation. So about 2 1/2 years ago when i lived down south (lots of training and indoor climbing) i managed to one arm a small rung full crimp from slightly bent. I then managed my first 7C bens roof.
However earlier this spring i came close to climbing fat lip (8B) falling off the last moves i can assure you that there is exactly 0% chance of me hanging even the large rungs one arm these days.
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http://vimeo.com/142346917
Me flailing trying to just stay remotely face on
effort
Can you do it with a half twist i.e. in your strongest position?
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effort
Can you do it with a half twist i.e. in your strongest position?
sort of (say 2/3 to 3/4 of the full range of motion), but i clash with the bottom of the campus board, so the finish is physically impossible. in saying that, i didn't try last night, so I'll probably be proven wrong when i come to film it :lol:
i thought I'd better just try and do the 1-armer i would like to be able to do (i.e. a proper one) and film that
same on the slot at the bottom of the beastmaker, which is much easier to hang.
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effort
Can you do it with a half twist i.e. in your strongest position?
sort of (say 2/3 to 3/4 of the full range of motion), but i clash with the bottom of the campus board, so the finish is physically impossible. in saying that, i didn't try last night, so I'll probably be proven wrong when i come to film it :lol:
i thought I'd better just try and do the 1-armer i would like to be able to do (i.e. a proper one) and film that
same on the slot at the bottom of the beastmaker, which is much easier to hang.
fair enough! Yeah the low slot is easier than a campus rung especially if you nestle into the corner. I tend to do it with the half turn in the small edge since I find it easier to get under it and actually hang that way, it certainly adds a bit of spice if you stay front on and probably translates to actual climbing better.
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Here we are, for those who care. First time I have ever seen myself do this on video so I can pick holes in my form, its far from perfect but it gives me something to work on. Constructive criticism welcome, belligerent criticism is not.
https://vimeo.com/142516067
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Good effort.
That's as hard if not harder to hang than the small rung on the campus board. I was referring to the jug central crimp in the previous video posted when I said the small rung was harder. I hope you see what I mean about most climbers idea of a one armer being about half of a one armer and not in a very useful position. :)
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Good effort.
That's as hard if not harder to hang than the small rung on the campus board. I was referring to the jug central crimp in the previous video posted when I said the small rung was harder. I hope you see what I mean about most climbers idea of a one armer being about half of a one armer and not in a very useful position. :)
Yeah I think I am on about 3/4 here, I dont intend on starting from deadhang because of the potential damage but I can see a bit more lock at the top of the pull up available to me. I still think that this is pretty much useless except for the finger strength cos like you said, its a position you don't often get into whilst climbing, front on would be more useful. I will have to see how I fair on the low slot front on!
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Have rewatched a few times and you need to look again at your footage to see what I'm getting at.
Starting from bent arm is fine. The first problem is that if I was to claim that I could do a two am pull-up, you would expect to see my feet off the ground prior to any upward movement starting. The second is that you are starting with your body at a half twist but don't seem to be able to maintain this (you rotate even further under ) and the third is that your shoulder finishes way below your hand.
This is why I filmed myself the way that I did, because I can look pretty convincing doing a "1 armer" if you were to ignore thes details, as in I can walk up the the campus board grab the 1st rung in one hand and pull to the 4th, but that's not a one armer.
Work in progress for both of us
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This is like watching two prospective Rolls Royce owners whittling about whether their current top-of-the-line BMW and Lexus steeds aren't quite prestige enough.
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A one armer is of debatable benefit to climbing (some positives, some party trick elements) but translating the exercise to climbing - how often would you be expected to replicate that movement from a straight arm when climbing? Not often I suspect.. Doing 2 or 3 from a bent arm might be of more use than 1 perfect straight armed one...
Sorry if that's obvious and I'm missing the point.
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A one armer is of debatable benefit to climbing (some positives, some party trick elements) but translating the exercise to climbing - how often would you be expected to replicate that movement from a straight arm when climbing? Not often I suspect.. Doing 2 or 3 from a bent arm might be of more use than 1 perfect straight armed one...
Sorry if that's obvious and I'm missing the point.
No that is perfectly the point. Overcoming any downwards movement to move upwards is way harder than kicking off the ground, no matter how gently.
As to how beneficial it is to be able to pull upwards one handed, the answer is it depends on the type of problems you are attempting
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A one armer is of debatable benefit to climbing (some positives, some party trick elements) but translating the exercise to climbing - how often would you be expected to replicate that movement from a straight arm when climbing? Not often I suspect..
It's not about the usefulness of an actual one armer that's relevant to climbing, it's the usefulness of having the potential. More power means more chances for success, ceteris paribus. But we all know this.
I remember the time when I was pure. I was young and my one arm training was face on.
Then at some point during this jouney into the unknown that we like to call "life", I got lost. Seduced and flattered by the sirens of the multiple one armers, I twisted my body and I twisted my dignity and honour. My mind was no more pure, it had bended and I had become the kind of human that Kant foresaw "for from such crooked wood as man is made of, nothing perfectly straight can be built."
I think that we could translate this into "for from such crooked pull as men do now, no chance on Hubble can be built."
Let's all be pure now.
Frangar non flectar.
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i still think "one arming" these holds is a poor way to measure "strong fingers".
Try just hanging them one handed. How long can you manage?
I can one arm them but not hang them for very long at all.
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i still think "one arming" these holds is a poor way to measure "strong fingers".
Try just hanging them one handed. How long can you manage?
I can one arm them but not hang them for very long at all.
Video evidence :)
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This is like watching two prospective Rolls Royce owners whittling about whether their current top-of-the-line BMW and Lexus steeds aren't quite prestige enough.
Quite an apt analogy, as the best way to get from A to B might be a Passat (efficiency), or a caterham super-7 (power-to-weight).
A rolls royce (one-armer) is an inefficient vanity project, but I wouldn't mind one. :)
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This is like watching two prospective Rolls Royce owners whittling about whether their current top-of-the-line BMW and Lexus steeds aren't quite prestige enough.
Quite an apt analogy, as the best way to get from A to B might be a Passat (efficiency), or a caterham super-7 (power-to-weight).
A rolls royce (one-armer) is an inefficient vanity project, but I wouldn't mind one. :)
:D
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Quite an apt analogy, as the best way to get from A to B might be a Passat (efficiency), or a caterham super-7 (power-to-weight).
Does that mean that my 1991 Nissan Micra suits my kneebaring predilection - no one will like you, you'll feel cheap dirty, but it'll get you where you need to go.
Overcoming any downwards movement to move upwards is way harder than kicking off the ground, no matter how gently.
This is true. I've often been able to do a '1-armer' comparable to that video posted above by AMorris (but using a bar/jug), but never in my life have I been able to go down at all and then re-engage and start moving upwards again.
AMorris - my only critiquing is that you should not touch any fingerboards or campus boards for 1 year and climb on rock as much as humanly possible, climbing on set problems when that's not possible.
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Quite an apt analogy, as the best way to get from A to B might be a Passat (efficiency), or a caterham super-7 (power-to-weight).
Does that mean that my 1991 Nissan Micra suits my kneebaring predilection - no one will like you, you'll feel cheap dirty, but it'll get you where you need to go.
Yes and you'll look a bit stuipid but ultimately it's sensible.
Mine's a van, provided by employer (no tax, fuel, insurance or maintenance costs), that I can sleep in the back of. All-rounder practicality.
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Quite an apt analogy, as the best way to get from A to B might be a Passat (efficiency), or a caterham super-7 (power-to-weight).
Does that mean that my 1991 Nissan Micra suits my kneebaring predilection - no one will like you, you'll feel cheap dirty, but it'll get you where you need to go.
Yes and you'll look a bit stuipid but ultimately it's sensible.
Mine's a van, provided by employer (no tax, fuel, insurance or maintenance costs), that I can sleep in the back of. All-rounder practicality.
Barrows - you're more like someone on a pushbike weaving through traffic whilst we're all stuck in it. :)
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Quite an apt analogy, as the best way to get from A to B might be a Passat (efficiency), or a caterham super-7 (power-to-weight).
Does that mean that my 1991 Nissan Micra suits my kneebaring predilection - no one will like you, you'll feel cheap dirty, but it'll get you where you need to go.
And will need replacing sooner rather than later.
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What sort of exercises are you doing to have such strong shoulders Rodma? Turning in like AMorris is doing is fine and quite a naturally strong position I feel but being able to resist the rotation is really difficult. I don't have strong enough fingers to hold my bodyweight on an edge yet but I wouldn't mind preparing my shoulders so that they are ready for when the fingers catch up. Is it just a case of trying to resist the rotation with less and less assistance until you don't need it any more or are there specific exercises to help strengthen the shoulders for that purpose? Thanks.
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What sort of exercises are you doing to have such strong shoulders Rodma? Turning in like AMorris is doing is fine and quite a naturally strong position I feel but being able to resist the rotation is really difficult. I don't have strong enough fingers to hold my bodyweight on an edge yet but I wouldn't mind preparing my shoulders so that they are ready for when the fingers catch up. Is it just a case of trying to resist the rotation with less and less assistance until you don't need it any more or are there specific exercises to help strengthen the shoulders for that purpose? Thanks.
in all honesty, I've done so many exercises for so many years that it's hard to pinpoint. it probably started with clean and jerk though.
most recently I've found just doing a couple of good (see all my earlier comments on what constitutes a one-armer) regular two-handed pull-ups with hands close together on the bar pulling as deep as is achievable (no need to add weight for this), shoulder blades back and down, no kipping, no swinging, no chin-bobbing, no heavy petting etc.
this is far more beneficial than doing wide gripped pull ups, which give the illusion of hitting the correct parts, whilst hitting all the internal rotators instead
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Have rewatched a few times and you need to look again at your footage to see what I'm getting at.
Starting from bent arm is fine. The first problem is that if I was to claim that I could do a two am pull-up, you would expect to see my feet off the ground prior to any upward movement starting. The second is that you are starting with your body at a half twist but don't seem to be able to maintain this (you rotate even further under ) and the third is that your shoulder finishes way below your hand.
This is why I filmed myself the way that I did, because I can look pretty convincing doing a "1 armer" if you were to ignore thes details, as in I can walk up the the campus board grab the 1st rung in one hand and pull to the 4th, but that's not a one armer.
Work in progress for both of us
Ah I see what you are getting at now. I have reviewed the footage and I make no upwards motion before my feet leave the ground, just a little tensing in preperation to take the weight. The angle of my arm does not change. I was pretty concerned with not kicking off or gather any momentum before leaving the ground, but I don't hang around for a few moments since it takes quite a bit of effort on an edge that small! I am also not sure that it is actually possible to finish with the shoulder above the hand on a one armer since you are, by definition, off balance and to address that balance you would have to over lock and push up a little with the finger to move beyond the hand line. Also the length of the hand adds extra distance which you would not get on a bar or larger hold. I was looking more at moving the bend of the arm as many degrees as possible. Also I don't think a half twist etc makes it any less of a pull up since it is still upwards motion generated by one arm. We may have differing opinions it seems! I appreciate the comments though, my form is significantly better on larger edges where I can do a few but that is to be taken for granted really.
AMorris - my only critiquing is that you should not touch any fingerboards or campus boards for 1 year and climb on rock as much as humanly possible, climbing on set problems when that's not possible.
If only! Trust me, it's not by choice that I have to maintain strength on a block of wood with holes in it, I get on rock as often as possible already but its no where near often enough. I am lucky that there is some decent rock around here but unlucky that I cannot drive to get to it, not yet anyway.
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Ok I get your point about hand below shoulder, but wrist below/level with shoulder at least.
For me the half twist is much less of a pullup (especially when even that isn't sustained through the movement ) than at least close to face on, otherwise it really is very difficult to compare the movement to the vast majority of climbing moves, other than being able to cut loose on a hold at the lip of a roof.
Climbers seem to have the unique viewpoint of what a successful one armer is, probably due to the prevalence of cheaty ones that have been uploaded by various heroes. Look at some of the videos of those bodyweight freaks racking out multiple one armers to see what a one armer actually looks like.
Anyway, my point is just that neither you or I can do a 1arm pullup on a bad hold (at this moment in time ). I am barely locking off and you are corkscrewing inwards whilst admittedly moving partially upwards :D
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Ok I get your point about hand below shoulder, but wrist below/level with shoulder at least.
For me the half twist is much less of a pullup (especially when even that isn't sustained through the movement ) than at least close to face on, otherwise it really is very difficult to compare the movement to the vast majority of climbing moves, other than being able to cut loose on a hold at the lip of a roof.
Climbers seem to have the unique viewpoint of what a successful one armer is, probably due to the prevalence of cheaty ones that have been uploaded by various heroes. Look at some of the videos of those bodyweight freaks racking out multiple one armers to see what a one armer actually looks like.
Anyway, my point is just that neither you or I can do a 1arm pullup on a bad hold (at this moment in time ). I am barely locking off and you are corkscrewing inwards whilst admittedly moving partially upwards :D
Yeah it really isn't of any use on rock, apart from being some test of finger strength I suppose, I think hanging them is more beneficial for climbing. This is interesting because I didn't really think about my body position at the time, I just respond to what my body is telling me would be beneficial. I went out with the objective of pulling myself up on one arm on the small edge and thats it. That drags something interesting up for me to consider in my training now, so this was a useful exercise after all! I appreciate it :)
This is quite an interesting video with Jan's one armers (though you might not like them), he kicks off quite a bit however his lock is very deep at the top which I have not seen before on the holds he is using. I dont know how many people have seen it so I thought I would post it.
http://www.myspass.de/shows/tvshows/tv-total/Profikletterer-Juliane-und-Jan--/21346/
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This is quite an interesting video with Jan's one armers (though you might not like them), he kicks off quite a bit however his lock is very deep at the top which I have not seen before on the holds he is using. I dont know how many people have seen it so I thought I would post it.
http://www.myspass.de/shows/tvshows/tv-total/Profikletterer-Juliane-und-Jan--/21346/
Haha
yes, he kicks off a little, but he is only at 45degrees to the board, isn't rotating further under it and is strong enough to both hold the hold and finish a one-armer properly, which as you say you don't see very often, because most videos are of failures claiming to be successes.
Jan is a beast.
these are the types of video I was on about, where although on a bar, the form is next to perfect and definitely constitute 1arm pullups
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTOVJhXU5Q0
i've taken this thread well :offtopic:
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This is quite an interesting video with Jan's one armers (though you might not like them), he kicks off quite a bit however his lock is very deep at the top which I have not seen before on the holds he is using. I dont know how many people have seen it so I thought I would post it.
http://www.myspass.de/shows/tvshows/tv-total/Profikletterer-Juliane-und-Jan--/21346/
Haha
yes, he kicks off a little, but he is only at 45degrees to the board, isn't rotating further under it and is strong enough to both hold the hold and finish a one-armer properly, which as you say you don't see very often, because most videos are of failures claiming to be successes.
Jan is a beast.
these are the types of video I was on about, where although on a bar, the form is next to perfect and definitely constitute 1arm pullups
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTOVJhXU5Q0
i've taken this thread well :offtopic:
Very nice form in that video, I think we can make the distinction between front on one armers and twisted one armers just like we do with pull ups and chin ups. Both are essentially the same but using different muscles. It seems in both cases front on is harder (though for two hands, I don't find that).
There are worse topic hijacs I suppose!
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http://vimeo.com/117187293
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http://vimeo.com/117187293
I reckon that's the Ferrari 458 there, that's what that is. No room for two in the back though, and he'll need someone else to carry his pads.. torso of zero mass etc.
Rupert, you sick puppy.
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Here's a video of Dreamtime on the "hangboard" - possibly 8C - oh, and Dave Graham almost manages half a one-armer!
Sorry, but there's also some crimpy rock climbing.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9oDdr_Mt6l8
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Thank you guys, Rodma especially, for setting me straight again. Front on, that is.
First session this morning, now my lats are giving shade to The neighbours' garden and are trying to rip my ribs away.
Cheers.
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Here's a video of Dreamtime on the "hangboard" - possibly 8C - oh, and Dave Graham almost manages half a one-armer!
Sorry, but there's also some crimpy rock climbing.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9oDdr_Mt6l8
this is a great video, one of my favourites.
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Ah that is a great video! It's been ages since when it came out!
Young Graham, V10s, razor crimps, yay!
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The guy he's climbing with is the bloke who just won American Ninja Warrior
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From homemade videos with the original crimper, to Ninja Warrior... Sic transit gloria mundi.
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indeed
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Sic transit
Init. A decent van's what you want, don't understand this Rolls Royce nonsense.
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:lol:
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I was expecting something along those lines. Unfortunately I sold my transit van three years ago...
Anyway today I made and installed these babies! Ready for frontal one armers training! (https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5675/22291190492_40d97f02e8_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/zXNbjy)image (https://flic.kr/p/zXNbjy) by Nibile (https://www.flickr.com/photos/70381658@N00/), on Flickr
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This surprised me.
I thought I was ok on one armers, on a bar (fingers won't take the little rung on the BM for that); but it turns out I can only do them square on by taking 8kg off (ie dropping my 87 to 79kg)!
And that's a big difference.
Though I have no problem transitioning from straight arm to bent, I can't pull in the top lock (so I guess that first part is not so different and that rotation in the forearm at the top is pretty stressful).
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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I was expecting something along those lines. Unfortunately I sold my transit van three years ago...
Anyway today I made and installed these babies! Ready for frontal one armers training! (https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5675/22291190492_40d97f02e8_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/zXNbjy)image (https://flic.kr/p/zXNbjy) by Nibile (https://www.flickr.com/photos/70381658@N00/), on Flickr
Looks good! Judging by the size in relation to other objects, they look about a pad (ish) deep? I am going to be focussing on frontals from now, since it seems they are the gold standard!
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That's a big cup Morris! ;D
The bigger one is around 20 mm maybe a bit more.
The smaller one - on top - is 14 mm.
Being incut is crucial for taking out the skin/friction factor.
One armers are a lot less stable than normal pull ups and front on even less so. You don't want to suddenky slip off!
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That's a big cup Morris! ;D
The bigger one is around 20 mm maybe a bit more.
The smaller one - on top - is 14 mm.
Being incut is crucial for taking out the skin/friction factor.
One armers are a lot less stable than normal pull ups and front on even less so. You don't want to suddenky slip off!
Fair enough, nice and small then! Yeah I agree that it helps for stability and friction if they are incut.
I have realised after my fingerboard session this evening that I have super unflexible wrists to the point where I find it very difficult to actually finish front on without twisting slightly to attain full lock, I don't seem to be able to twist my hand full around. Does anyone else have this problem or am I just cursed? :-\
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Sorry man, I didn't want to sound cocky! I am a bit touchy when it comes to size though! ;)
Anyway, yes, the wrist position in frontal one armers (that hereby I christen FOA) is pretty stressful at the top.
The problem is that we normally tend to center our body under the wrist and pull the chin close and over it, which causes a strong twist. Being strong enough as to keep our body to the side of the arm would solve the issue...
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Try doing a deep two arm pullup with your hands close together and see if you have the same problem. If not, it's just that you're not strong enough to do a full one armer yet
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Try doing a deep two arm pullup with your hands close together and see if you have the same problem. If not, it's just that you're not strong enough to do a full one armer yet
Oh no, I fully realise you're right.
I'd never tried on a campus board before and our BMs have clear space below so any amount of swinging around was possible.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Hmmmm... I think it's a bit more complicated than that.
While a close grip standard pull up could give an idea, it doesn't translate exactly to FOAs.
The symmetry of the prehension can easily compensate the stress of the wrist rotation, and it's likely that while doing a normal pull up you'll be a bit further apart from the bar so that the rotation is different than when you're closer to the bar as in a FOA.
To replicate the position try to mimic a FOA and see how it feels to have your wrist to your chin: you'll see that you tend to twist it as when doing a twisting one armer.
If you mimic a FOA but you keep the wrist at ching height but to the side, directly in front of the shoulder, you'll see that there's a lot less rotation, but obviously a lot more tension on the shoulder.
So, what happens in normal pull ups, due to the double prehension and the symmetry, is very different from FOAs.
The twisting that happens in normal one armers is due to the natural behaving of our body, it's the most effective way to bring the chin over the bar on one arm.
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Try doing a deep two arm pullup with your hands close together and see if you have the same problem. If not, it's just that you're not strong enough to do a full one armer yet
Rodders, the obvious question of course.
I find the "prone" hand position on a bar quite stressful, so always work one-arms on a bar with the "baseball" grip.
That's a big cup Morris! ;D
The bigger one is around 20 mm maybe a bit more.
The smaller one - on top - is 14 mm.
Being incut is crucial for taking out the skin/friction factor.
One armers are a lot less stable than normal pull ups and front on even less so. You don't want to suddenly skip off!
That's a situation where having "stronger than average finger strength" would really help, IMHO. Someone should start a thread about that. ;) ..though I'm enjoying this one.
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Very succinctly put Lore. ;D
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OK - but you wouldnt need to do a FOA if you were (for example) pulling on a jug on a lip...
Alternatively, if you were somewhere where the rock got in the way of the swinging - wouldn't this just automatically correct a regular twisty OA into a FOA?
But I suspect I'm missing the point that this is a training issue right? ;)
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OK - but you wouldnt need to do a FOA if you were (for example) pulling on a jug on a lip...
Alternatively, if you were somewhere where the rock got in the way of the swinging - wouldn't this just automatically correct a regular twisty OA into a FOA?
Do you mean in a situation where you might have to use your feet - if you weren't (for example) pulling on a jug on a lip..?
In a difficult situation like that, you could add a weight belt in an attempt to retain the training effect. ?
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Cheeky badgers
I already mentioned the lip hold as being about the only time that being rotated was useful.
The ability to pull deep, face on, using a terrible, or non existent foothold is needless to say, quite useful, especially if the handhold is too poor to pull yourself inwards on to generate additional foot friction.
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As I see it, the point of training to do a perfect FOA is not that you will perform the full FOA range of motion while climbing, but that by having that strength any pulling movements will be significantly easier, and you will be able to lock off deeper hopefully. I too have realized of late that my 'front on one armers' are in actuality far from front on, and have been trying occasionally to work my deep front on lock. Only occasionally because of fear of disturbing my elbow from its tentative reverie of late.
I started off doing one armers using the neutral or baseball grip, but those are much easier than proper FOAs, and are much less useful for climbing I find. I also tend to feel more pain in my elbows doing one armers in neutral grip as opposed to doing them front on, probably because neutral grip uses the bicep more while the front on is mainly a back exercise.
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.. while climbing .. useful for climbing ..
I don't understand :shrug:
neutral grip uses the bicep more while the front on is mainly a back exercise.
I'm not sure I'd try to separate them quite as clearly. I think I'd prefer to work the deeper front on lock by doing negative muscle-ups - perfect for isolating the upper range of movement. In a "climbing" (is that the word you use?) situation, I think you'd need enough weight through your feet, and a "good enough" hold, to counteract the natural moment that occurs, so that in training ( :punk:) better gains might be achieved by working different parts of the movement separately.
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I don't want to be nitpicking but I think that it's not specifically due to the prehension, but to the execution.
You can transform the pull up in a bicep-dominant excercise by trying to lock the shoulders and "curl the bar to you". This is harder on a pronated grip, easier on a neutral grip.
To neutralize biceps engagement you have to start the pull with a strong depression of the scapula and follow with pulling the elbow down to the ribs. Ideally with straight arms, to then flex the elbows and engage biceps only for the second half of the pull, for which the lats are kind of useless, given that they are inserted on the humerus.
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(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/570/22346314892_aeab666120_b.jpg)
In case there are any doubters, with reference to the above image which appeared on the Megos @ NRG thread, I appreciate this could be disturbing/disappointing. However, here, Alex was in fact working the plannched position. Order restored.
Lore, thanks for your input, a always. :yes:
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Sorry man, I didn't want to sound cocky! I am a bit touchy when it comes to size though! ;)
Anyway, yes, the wrist position in frontal one armers (that hereby I christen FOA) is pretty stressful at the top.
The problem is that we normally tend to center our body under the wrist and pull the chin close and over it, which causes a strong twist. Being strong enough as to keep our body to the side of the arm would solve the issue...
Haha, no worries, aren't we all!
Try doing a deep two arm pullup with your hands close together and see if you have the same problem. If not, it's just that you're not strong enough to do a full one armer yet
Yeah I have tried this, I have real problems with narrow grip pull ups (anything which is about shoulder width apart, I cannot do comfortably to full lock). From palm out I can only rotate my hand about 110 degrees on the right and 140 on the left. I have compared my wrist flexation to my colleagues and they agree that there is something wrong with mine! Not good, I might have to start doing wrist exercises it seems. Christ knows what form they would take though.
Going a little more square, more akin to a wider grip two armer, is much easier for me though stronger across the shoulder.
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Sounds more likely to be forearm /bicep issues rather than wrist per se
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Two handed, close grip, I can easily hold the lock at nipple height. The tension I feel (both in the FOAs and these) is in the Brachioradialis.
And repeating the exercise in the "baseball"/side on position, I don't feel that muscle engaging at all.
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Two handed, close grip, I can easily hold the lock at nipple height. The tension I feel (both in the FOAs and these) is in the Brachioradialis.
And repeating the exercise in the "baseball"/side on position, I don't feel that muscle engaging at all.
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OMM,
I switched to doing one arm work with a neutral grip primarily because of problems I was getting with the brachioradialis tendon. Of course, it can be difficult to get the reassuring feeling that a particular muscle group is engaged, but unfortunately, by engaged, we may also mean unhealthily stressed.
In my case, it may have been the volume (number) of pull ups that caused the problem, which may not be relevant in your case (I no longer do large sets of pull-ups).
I do hammer curls to work the brachioradialis separately. I'm not going to recommend negative muscle-ups, as they're too effective at isolating the deep front on lock (a position I lower into, before pressing out again) and I don't want other people finding out how good they are.
In order to avoid injury, would it not be better to work each muscle group in a mechanically advantageous way, working with greater resistance, even if there's a position in climbing where a particular muscle feels more engaged? Just wondering.
Is there a separate one-armer thread? Should we split this, as it's way off topic? The original "strong fingers" discussion was a good one. Thoughts OP?
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Is there a separate one-armer thread? Should we split this, as it's way off topic?
Done. (phew)
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my two penneth!
I have noticed a significant issue in one arm strength that depends on what the other arm is doing. For instance if trying 1-4-7 on mega jugs it is interesting to note the different muscles that are employed if you try and lock off rung 4 with your free arm hovering over rung 7. The shoulder rotation required to make the reach seems to load up the deltoids quite differently to if you weren't reaching high. This shoulder strength seem to me much more specific for climbing than plain one-armers where the free arm is not reaching up.(It also seems much nicer on the elbows as the shoulder rotation seems to relieve the stress on the 'golfers elbow' impingement point.
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I have noticed a significant issue in one arm strength
Hi Marc, me too :P
my two penneth!
I have noticed a significant issue in one arm strength that depends on what the other arm is doing. For instance if trying 1-4-7 on mega jugs it is interesting to note the different muscles that are employed if you try and lock off rung 4 with your free arm hovering over rung 7. The shoulder rotation required to make the reach seems to load up the deltoids quite differently to if you weren't reaching high. This shoulder strength seem to me much more specific for climbing than plain one-armers where the free arm is not reaching up.(It also seems much nicer on the elbows as the shoulder rotation seems to relieve the stress on the 'golfers elbow' impingement point.
Good point. I think I know what you mean. It feels more restful and in equilibrium doesn't it?
How do you find that on the smallest rungs - just so as I'll know what to expect? 8)
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Nice one Dave!
I have been trying 1-4-7 on the large metolius rungs at the works and getting pretty close moving dynamically but have identified my 'lock and reach' strength as letting me down. Have started doing the 1-4-7 static on the mega logs at the works, basically doing 1-4, mantelling up into position for the reach and then trying to reach up and float the lead hand over rung 7. It seems to really hit the right part of the shoulder. I reckon this front on shoulder rotation is a neglected area of training as the entire width of the shoulder can be used to improve reach enormously. I think 'deep lock' training should be rebranded as 'deep lock and reach' training. Would be interested to know if any of the campus beasts out there can easily hold 4-7 static!
small rungs, still lacking the basic fingers to do much more than 1-4-5!!
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Nice one Dave!
I have been trying 1-4-7 on the large metolius rungs at the works and getting pretty close moving dynamically but have identified my 'lock and reach' strength as letting me down. Have started doing the 1-4-7 static on the mega logs at the works, basically doing 1-4, mantelling up into position for the reach and then trying to reach up and float the lead hand over rung 7. It seems to really hit the right part of the shoulder. I reckon this front on shoulder rotation is a neglected area of training as the entire width of the shoulder can be used to improve reach enormously. I think 'deep lock' training should be rebranded as 'deep lock and reach' training. Would be interested to know if any of the campus beasts out there can easily hold 4-7 static!
small rungs, still lacking the basic fingers to do much more than 1-4-5!!
on a board like the works, i can lock 4-7, but by cheating (rotating my arm inwards against my body to generate friction to prevent movement), but this is not beneficial. in my formative years i could do the 4-7 part of a 1-4-7 on the works board by just letting go with the lower hand and pulling with the upper hand, i could only ever tickle 7 on a proper campus board though
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Proper depth, no kicks, high lock off. No fluff. Some twisting, but that's ok with a finger in a sling right?
https://www.facebook.com/135005263234183/videos/936662803068421/?permPage=1
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I'm afraid it's not.
First of all, as Jerry wrote and as we all know, using a sling for monos "Is a little bit like cheating".
Then, the use of a sling allows for less twisting of the body because it's the sling that twists. If you watch carefully the final position of the palm at the end of the pull up, you'll see that it's basically supinated. This freedom of twist for the wrist makes useless the twisting of the body that a bar requires.
The shoulder and forearm stability required by a proper FOA on a fixed hold are different, not to mention that in a proper FOA the bicep works with a pronated prehension, so it can contract less, there's more brachialis involvement, etc.
To cut a long story short: back around Magnus, go back to climbing 9b, FOAs are serious stuff.
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Proper depth, no kicks, high lock off. No fluff. Some twisting, but that's ok with a finger in a sling right?
https://www.facebook.com/135005263234183/videos/936662803068421/?permPage=1
Agree with Nibs, this is equivalent to a half twist so cannot constitute an FOA. I think it would be pretty difficult to do a proper form FOA on a sling to be honest. HOWEVER, fucking hell, streng... :strongbench:
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Bummer.
Magnus beats my one arm press-up best by 3.
http://www.allthingsgym.com/one-arm-pulling-strength-magnus-midtbo/
He eats babies for breakfast.
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I hope you use better form than he does...
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Haston on pull ups - he has quite a lot to say on the subject
http://steviehaston.blogspot.fr/2012/07/pull-ups-and-their-variations-by-stevie.html?m=1
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Good progress.
http://youtu.be/sdrervAT1fI
http://youtu.be/JAvlQ9HZCrw
Particularly happy about speed and starting from hanging.
Tried on the edge but it was boiling and I was afraid to be spit off. Strong in the first half though, painful from mid lock up so sacked it.
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Good progress.
http://youtu.be/sdrervAT1fI
http://youtu.be/JAvlQ9HZCrw
Particularly happy about speed and starting from hanging.
Tried on the edge but it was boiling and I was afraid to be spit off. Strong in the first half though, painful from mid lock up so sacked it.
looking good! nice work going from dead hang too. I have been making progress as well and I have found that I can much more easily initiate movement from straight arm when I am front on than when I am side on, has anyone else found this? I will post a video at some point I imagine.