[Paul B]

- if it gets a bit harder / easier then fair go... [very common in the Peak we all agree] however if hold loss / new shapes renders the route many grades harder or easier a case by case discussion would be the best way to decide the route's fate. As is probably not happening here, or is it?? has the grade truly changed a lot?

Regardless of the grade, something like this could alter the route entirely. My view of Mecca is that it's one of the most sustained routes i've even been on if one move gets slightly easier then it takes away from that and alters the charachter of the route.

Was the demise of the hold natural?

[fatdoc]

I think you've misunderstood me Bonjoy. I'm not against gluing holds back on again, infact I'm all for it. All I'm saying is that once the gluing has taken place you just have to live with it and gluing should only take place where required. A bit of loose rock falling out of a hold does not warrant gluing unless the resultant hold is weakened. In terms of people saying I dont know why ...... it's piss, they would say these things anyway. Half the climbing fraternity want to appear better than the next man and how better to achieve this by belittling his achievements! So unless it's fallen off or is definitely weak - don't glue it!!!!!

well put, that's what I was trying to say

[Kingy]

Regardless of the grade, something like this could alter the route entirely. My view of Mecca is that it's one of the most sustained routes i've even been on if one move gets slightly easier then it takes away from that and alters the charachter of the route.


I couldn't agree more. If a move is made even slightly easier lower down it will have a massive effect when fighting up the groove later on as the nature of the climbing is cumulative. To gain the base of the groove and make the clip used to be 8b in its own right up until last week. If it is only 8a+ now then this will make a big difference. This is why it is so critical that any repair is done in the right way. The fact that it might still be 8b+ but a soft one is a lame reason for not doing the repair. The route should be preserved as the testpiece it has been since 1988 and not some gradebag 8b+.

Was the demise of the hold natural?

I don't know for sure but presume so. I guess the most likely scenario is that a climber was cranking on the crimp and the piece exploded out.

[Bonjoy]

To clarify, I’m not for re-gluing every little bit of rock that falls off routes. Given how much comes off this is totally impractical anyway. But I am for the case by case basis thing, with a general principal of trying to preserve quality routes as quality routes.
Going on the case by case thing Mecca is very much a special case as it is the upper limit (or just above the upper limit in my case) of a lot of hard working sport climbers in the UK. A tiny change, even if it make no overall grade shift is a big deal. Mecca is THE benchmark testpiece. For some it’s their life’s work.
By fixing the hold you would be preserving the route in the state that climbers want it. At the cost of making a pretty artificial hold (the whole hold has been off an on again at least once) on a fairly artificial route a little bit more artificial. Mecca is not about climbing an aesthetic natural feature (although it has incidental value as such), it’s about climbing a hard, historically significant testpiece.
 
Fatdoc/travs – I see what you're saying, but what do you think you're preserving by leaving it unfixed?

[travs]

Again you have me all wrong Bonjoy. It's got absolutely nothing to do with preservation - it's about living with the evolution of the route. If you think Mecca is a test piece what about 'Comes the Dervish'. The gear on this used to be pretty sparse but is now totally bomber, following the logic of the people on this thread we shoud go and sicker up the crack to return to RP and wire placements!! Returning to Mecca, if you're talking about retaining it's nature from 1998 does this mean we are going to stick on all the little foot holds that have fallen off moving to the groove and are we going to roughen up the rock in the groove with some sort of acid? The loss of the piece of rock is only one small step in the routes evolution, just accept it and climb it in it's present state.

[fatdoc]

Again you have me all wrong Bonjoy. It's got absolutely nothing to do with preservation - it's about living with the evolution of the route. If you think Mecca is a test piece what about 'Comes the Dervish'. The gear on this used to be pretty sparse but is now totally bomber, following the logic of the people on this thread we shoud go and sicker up the crack to return to RP and wire placements!! Returning to Mecca, if you're talking about retaining it's nature from 1998 does this mean we are going to stick on all the little foot holds that have fallen off moving to the groove and are we going to roughen up the rock in the groove with some sort of acid? The loss of the piece of rock is only one small step in the routes evolution, just accept it and climb it in it's present state.

I doubt I'll ever agree with anyone 3 times in row on a forum again but this kinda sums it up for me

[Bonjoy]

Ok so it is not to preserve anything, we just ought to live with routes falling apart. Why? Who or what benefits from this self sacrifice?


Firstly Comes the Dervish would take more than half a teaspoon of resin to restore the crack to its original width. Therefore it’s not viable to fix, so not relevant to the discussion IMO. If you could restore it to its original state with one squirt of a glue-gun I might say go for it.

Secondly CtD is not a hard sport route. I would probably be in favour of fixing a small breakage on the not to distant Very Big and the Very Small if it occurred.

Had I been around at the time that previous holds fell off Mecca I would have argued for them being glued back on. But as they’re now long gone the window of opportunity is closed for doing that. As I said before, up till this incident the route has been in its current state for a long time. The current state is to my knowledge how it was when the extensions were done. It seems to me that most people who have done it recently or aspire to do it soon want it to remain in this, as I see it, definitive condition. Just because people were tardy about looking after the route in the past doesn’t mean we should be now.

And polish is a red herring. One route is as polished as the next on the tor. As there is no viable solution, it's not something worth trying to change. Besides limestone polishes extremely quickly. One of the footholds on Beluga was polished before I’d even done the FA!

[Fiend]

The last thing you want if Mecca is your hardest route (and for many ascentionists it is) is for someone who did it before the breakage to say “Ah but it was much harder when I did it” or if you did it before, for someone going on it today, unaware of the history to say “I don’t know why that start took you so long, it’s piss”.

Regardless of the grade, something like this could alter the route entirely. My view of Mecca is that it's one of the most sustained routes i've even been on if one move gets slightly easier then it takes away from that and alters the charachter of the route.

I couldn't agree more. If a move is made even slightly easier lower down it will have a massive effect when fighting up the groove later on as the nature of the climbing is cumulative. To gain the base of the groove and make the clip used to be 8b in its own right up until last week. If it is only 8a+ now then this will make a big difference. This is why it is so critical that any repair is done in the right way. The fact that it might still be 8b+ but a soft one is a lame reason for not doing the repair. The route should be preserved as the testpiece it has been since 1988 and not some gradebag 8b+.

Going on the case by case thing Mecca is very much a special case as it is the upper limit (or just above the upper limit in my case) of a lot of hard working sport climbers in the UK. A tiny change, even if it make no overall grade shift is a big deal. Mecca is THE benchmark testpiece. For some it’s their life’s work.

Yes yes that's all very well BUT...

Does it make any difference to the quality of the route?? Does it actually make it a worse route as a climbing experience??

There's a lot of talk about history, significance, benchmarks, grades, hardest this, life's work that, and not much about the quality (I mean climbing quality irrespective of whether it's one's big tick or not). Maybe Sloper was right in the first place......

[Jaspersharpe]

Totally in agreement with Bonjoy on this.

[Paul B]

Regardless of the grade, something like this could alter the route entirely. My view of Mecca is that it's one of the most sustained routes i've even been on if one move gets slightly easier then it takes away from that and alters the character of the route.

Does it make any difference to the quality of the route?? Does it actually make it a worse route as a climbing experience??

I'd argue Yes, potentially.

[Fiend]

Is that yes to making it worse, or yes to changing the quality (which could go either way  )??

[Bonjoy]

Yes yes that's all very well BUT...

Does it make any difference to the quality of the route?? Does it actually make it a worse route as a climbing experience??

There's a lot of talk about history, significance, benchmarks, grades, hardest this, life's work that, and not much about the quality (I mean climbing quality irrespective of whether it's one's big tick or not). Maybe Sloper was right in the first place......

Don't you see? All of those things together equal quality. I doubt the change in the hold makes a vast difference to the 'feel' of the move. But the quality of the experience both for past and future ascentionists is arguably devalued by the change. Why else would everyone who it directly effects, who has posted on here, be in favour of fixing the hold?
Quality is a fuzzy concept which in the case of sport climbing is built up of multiple factor, the feel of the moves, the level of difficulty, the history, the aesthetic appeal of the line etc. Each aspect has to be weighed seperately when considering what actions to take.

[nik at work]

Ultimately I guess the outcome of this will be decided by the people who go to this crag and try this route currently. They'll be the only ones bothered enough to do anything (or indeed nothing). I'd guess that the concensus of opinion they will come to is whack a bit of glue on the hold. History will judge them, or more likely history will completely ignore them and instead judge something significant that happened at around the same time.

However should my future biographer(s?) wish to use this debate as an example of my shining ethical standards then I would count myself amongst the Travs and Fatdoc supporters.

[saltbeef]

glue it on

[JC]

Ultimately I guess the outcome of this will be decided by the people who go to this crag and try this route currently. They'll be the only ones bothered enough to do anything (or indeed nothing).

I've been working on Mecca for a few days now, spread over a couple of weeks. My first two sessions on the route had the little pebble thing in place; then i came back on it the following week and it had gone.  Maybe its just me but i DON'T think that this has made any significant difference for me.  We're talking about a stone about as big as your little fingernail here!
Also i think that the move before this is the hardest for me cos when you've actually caught the crimp then its basically a static move from there to get the pocket.   

To say it will alter the grade IMHO is bollox. 

Saying that i'm not really bothered either way!   

[Sloper]

Well the sophistic answer would be to make a replica bolt on hold and place this next to the new natural hold then people would have the chance to claim an irrelevant 8b+ or an Irrelevant 8a+ (change the grade according to your ego).

For me, and I guess Travs, Fatdoc and Nik climbing is about taking the challenge that faces you and dealing with that, if for some reason this one route stands outside this ethic then I'd like to see the jusitification used by the people that propose the action mooted.

Punter me all you like but to me this thread stinks of double standards, ignorance and ego; but if you do, do have the courage to  approach me directly and discuss the issue.

[account_inactive]

Punter me all you like but to me this thread stinks of double standards, ignorance and ego; but if you do, do have the courage to  approach me directly and discuss the issue.

Why would anyone discuss this issue with you?  Does your opinion count?

[Sloper]

Are you a f-kwit or just trying hard to do a good impression?

[Adam Lincoln]

Are you a f-kwit or just trying hard to do a good impression?

No need, have some smite

[GCW]

Dear oh dear, calm down ladies it's only a hold breakage.

For what it's worth, if the hold is available I'd say glue it back.
Although, if the hold is lost I'm not sure whether reconstructing the broken hold with sika from memory would be so cut and dried.

[account_inactive]

Are you a f-kwit or just trying hard to do a good impression?

?

[The Sausage]

if for some reason this one route stands outside this ethic then I'd like to see the jusitification used by the people that propose the action mooted.

Punter me all you like but to me this thread stinks of double standards, ignorance and ego; but if you do, do have the courage to  approach me directly and discuss the issue.

Bonjoy stated earlier, and, as anyone knows who clims on Peak Limestone, a lot of it is held together by glue. This mecca issue doesn't "stand out". There is no debate: if the hold is available, and somebody can be bothered, it goes back on. There is no arguement for that not being the case. Whether it's worth putting it back on is another matter altogether (a practical, not an ethical one), and only those who have been on the route can reasonably answer that.

Don't worry Mr Sloper, I won't punter you, but there are definitely no double standards or ignorance being shown by the main protagonists of this debate. You appear to be ignorant of the widespread practice of glueing holds on peak limestone however.

[fatdoc]

there certainly IS a debate.

the hold has not fallen off mate!!

it's not like it's now 8a or 8c+


look at the post of the redpointer, he's not finding it different in grade and that is a vital part of this debate, coz the route is new to him - it's the top end of his ability ... his is the experience you all speak of being tarnished by a slightly better hold. Now it's obvious it aint making much difference.. so just coz the locals have the moves dialed and the hold shapes engramed to the max I would now suggest there is now much less justification for slappping another blob of sika onto mecca.


the evolution bit Travs mentioned is all too true.... to give more local examples to aid the debate

- tribes got harder by evolution.. no one reconstructed the sequance... just re did it at 8a

- zeke, the ice cream cone hold has come, gone and come again (i believe)



BTW, has anyone asked Basher?

In times gone by the 1st ascensionist would be the one to take the decision on this...

[Sloper]

I'm well aware of the wide spread use of sika to re-inforce holds, I'm well aware of the chipping, the drilling, the use of pof, the lying, the cheating that I'm aware of this doesn't detract from the question of whether these practices are to be encouraged or not.

The question is here, when a hold breaks and cannot be replaced whether it should be recreated?  To me the simple answer to this is no, routes change; end of subject.

As for the point that only a small clique can comment on an issue that's simply ignorant, arrogant bollocks.

[Johnny Brown]

I'm with travs and fatdoc on this, they appear to be holding a wiser view more sustainable in the long term, no doubt due them having been around a bit longer.

Its easy for the current tor crew to think that the present state of the cragr is THE definitive one, and therefore something worth preserving. It isn't either; the only thing constant is that it will change. This goes for trees, holds, bolts, everything. Trying to keep it in this one state is not realistic.

As for the point that only a small clique can comment on an issue that's simply ignorant, arrogant bollocks.

Agree completely.