[Andy Harris]

Myself and  a few others were having a  session on Mecca yesterday and to my horror the wobbly bit in the left hand crimp 2 moves up from the initial jugs is no longer. This now makes for a significantly easier move. Whether this fell out or was pushed in my slightly synical view of the modern climber wanting everything as easy as it can possibly be by means fair or foul I am not sure.

Basically the piece is no longer there and I wonder whether it should be replaced by a blob of sika? Does it alter the grade? Not sure but it certainly makes the 1st section to the jug a lot easier (by say half a grade).

[Kingy]

Thanks for reporting this Andy.

It has been on the cards for some time now, that bit of the hold has been wobbling ever since I have been trying it (which is quite a long time! lol). I reckon we should let Zippy know, if anyone would know what to do it would be him. Paul Reeve recently said he would fix it soon. i would vote for a bit of sika to be put in the back of the crimp to make it uniformly small again. It would be a tragedy if the route were to be made easier than the benchmark 8b+ it was until recently.

[Ru]

That hold is already about 1/3 bigger than it used to be after it got stuck back on.

[Kingy]

yes I heard that apparently sometime in the 90's John Hart glued it back on in such a way that it became a bigger hold than before

[Kingy]

yes I heard that apparently sometime in the 90's John Hart glued it back on in such a way that it became a bigger hold than before

...obviously after it fell off naturally

[Ru]

It got glued back on by John about 3 years ago.

[John Cooke]

I was climbing with Andy when this was noticed and it is indeed of serious concern. I agree with Ted when he says the bit of rock at the back of the hold has been wobbling for some time now although when i last looked it i was certainly under the impression it would require some force to remove it.

The difference is that the holds turns from being a 3 finger open/half crimp to a full four finger closed crimp so it has improved dramatically.

If anyone does have the piece, the ideal option would be to try and sika it back in. Failing that a blob of sika to restore the hold back to size would be the next appropriate option.

[corniceman]

I agree with John and Ted that the hold should somehow be restored. John Hart put it back on using Sikka in 2004 and it was always a bit more posative as a result after that. I dont think it reduced the overall grade of the route though and we all thought john had done as good a job as possible in restoring it. I would vote for some very carefully placed sikka so as to not make the hold completely plastic as unfortunately I did when I bolted up a right hand finish to Mecca at about the same time and created a horrible plastiic hold out to the right of the Mecca sloper. Unfortunately did something rather similar on Monsterocity also!!

I wonder if Bonjoy is the man with the skills and craftmanship for the task. We want to ensure The UKs best route stays that way!!

[Bonjoy]

I'm no master craftsman but do have have a pretty good recollection of the hold and some glue. Not sure when I'll next get a chance though. If it is an urgent issue for someone, they can always arrange to borrow my resin gun.

[Turboman]

For what it's worth I also agree that the hold should be restored to it's previous state.
Before launching into a full resin job it would be worth checking with the usual suspects whether they have the loose piece (I'm thinking Smitton, Sharples, Reeve etc).  Relacing this would help restore it to it's previous state.

[Sloper]

It's well known that I don't like limestone and that i'm far too weak to even contemplate pulling onto the starting holds but having said that I find the suggestion that this natural (I see no suggestion of chipping) erosion be 'repaired' rather worrying. 

Holds fall off routes all the time making the routes harder and easier in seemingly equal measures and I don't see this as a problem.  What's wrong with Mecca losing half a grade, shirley it can't all be about the number?

What would people's reaction be to suggestions that a blob of sika was stuck onto Beau Geste, or some pebbles were glued back on name slab to make them easier than they had become?

[Fiend]

What's wrong with Mecca losing half a grade, shirley it can't all be about the number?

What blooming planet are you on Sloper?? Or has someone spiked your cigar??

Not about the grade, what bolleaux...

[The Sausage]

What would people's reaction be to suggestions that a blob of sika was stuck onto Beau Geste, or some pebbles were glued back on name slab to make them easier than they had become?

The point is that the route doesn't become easier. It's not about the grade, it's about the difficulty of the route, and yes, there is a subtle, although crucial, difference. If beau geste suddenly grew a couple of bomber wire placements, it would probably still be a great E5 called Beau Geste, but it wouldn't be Beau Geste as we know it, and as we aspire to climb it.

From a peronal point of view, I'm planning a (doubtlessly protracted) seige on Mecca next year, and don't want to climb some cheapened version of a such a classic.

[Jaspersharpe]

Half The Tor is held together with sika anyway Sloper. It's not comparable, as you well know.

[Bonjoy]

Sika/resin is an integral part of the climbing on hard limestone in the Peak and to a lesser extent Yorkshire. Without it a large proportion of the routes would be totally different, usually much less pleasant, in many cases impossible and prone to crucial hold loss, basically it would have half as many worthwhile >8a routes. This is not gritstone it is bolted semi-choss!

[Jaspersharpe]

Classic bolted semi choss no less!

[Johnny Brown]

Steady on! No need to get carried away...

[fatdoc]

It's one to decide my those operating at that level.

I dont redpoint anymore, if i did and Mecca was my project I'd be damn pissed if it dropped a grade.

However......

those holds on that section have gone through various incarnations over the years, if it's more positive now (and over a decade of recollection speaking now) I though it was fairly OK - at least at some point... you could just wait for it to snap / shear etc...

why ??


well, (again I'm aware of being an armchair pundit here... sorry) are we going to make a concensus statement that all good peak lime will be fixed up (which as we can see is an ongoing affair) to it's original state?

if so, that's fine... but what would perhaps not be ideal is to see the benchmark 8b+ stamina / endurance route of the peak being a special case and kept artifically hard just to keep the great route that it is at a certain grade to give us all a roadside 8b+ 30 mins from sheffield



just a thought...

[Jaspersharpe]

It's not just one route though is it? Routes / problems are routinely repaired as Bonjoy says. It has to be done otherwise lots of stuff would become unclimbable or shit or both (stand down JB!).

[travs]

So what you're saying is it's OK if routes become harder but not OK if they become easier? Ie pocket on Revelations, the crimpy thing on Make it Funky, side pull on Superman? After all it's not an indoor wall where if a hold breaks it can be replaced with an identical one! Guess we all just to have to live with it and accept that these routes go through cycles of getting easier and harder - it's no big deal - just enjoy the route and get it climbed!

[Bonjoy]

To be fair Mecca is a long way from the state it was on the FA. I'm told the horn used to be a jug you could shake out on for starters. That said, it has been in roughly its present state for long enough for this to be considered the definative route, certainly this is how most people have climbed it, including all the ascents of the three extensions.
Yes sport climbing is an arcane business full of strange traditions and practices which may be unfathomable to those not involved. Thankfully to those involved it all makes perfect sense.

[account_inactive]

If the hold is not repaired will it break again?  I'm all for backing up holds and sticking them on again when they come off, but if this doesn't change the grade of the route does it matter?

Saying that if I was trying to work it then I'd be well pissed off if this happened.  Like Jon said it's up to the people who have already redpointed to make a decision

[Bonjoy]

The ideal situation is that first ascentionist back up potentially loose holds before the FA, even if this sometimes means taking them off and gluing them back on, if done properly this gives a near invisible repair and ensures the route won’t start evolving after a few ascents.
Other than that I think it’s better to repair routes regardless of whether the change makes the route easier or harder. For example the lost hold on Eugenics has made the route harder and ten times more unpleasant. So unpleasant that even though folks have done the moves nobody can be arsed to reclimb the route. Had the hold been glued back straight away we’d have another decent 8a+ to play on at Rubicon. Instead we have a dusty unused line of bolts.



 The last thing you want if Mecca is your hardest route (and for many ascentionists it is) is for someone who did it before the breakage to say “Ah but it was much harder when I did it” or if you did it before, for someone going on it today, unaware of the history to say “I don’t know why that start took you so long, it’s piss”.

[fatdoc]

I'm with Travs


Again with the prefix that it's not my sport anymore...  a bit of common sense  / what happens on most other rock types in the UK  / having climbed for a fair bit would say IMO

- if it gets a bit harder / easier then fair go... [very common in the Peak we all agree] however if hold loss / new shapes renders the route many grades harder or easier a case by case discussion would be the best way to decide the route's fate. As is probably not happening here, or is it?? has the grade truly changed a lot?

Also, unlike many peak sport routes it's the burn that gets you on the link.... one slightly easier move near the start wont alter the hell of the upper groove!

You dont need to have redpointed the route to have something to say on the matter. (For what it's worth i fell off the top of the groove for a couple of weeks and got pissed off with the shiny slippy nightmare I was having and I cut my losses)
But I dont see how that helps, if you know about peak rock, the history and such like then one can raise a  voice on the matter. After all, one of my kids is more likely to do Mecca than me these days!

[travs]

I think you've misunderstood me Bonjoy. I'm not against gluing holds back on again, infact I'm all for it. All I'm saying is that once the gluing has taken place you just have to live with it and gluing should only take place where required. A bit of loose rock falling out of a hold does not warrant gluing unless the resultant hold is weakened. In terms of people saying I dont know why ...... it's piss, they would say these things anyway. Half the climbing fraternity want to appear better than the next man and how better to achieve this by belittling his achievements! So unless it's fallen off or is definitely weak - don't glue it!!!!!