[philo]

Samsung VP-HMX10 High Definition Camcorder


just placed an order for one of these as the price for what it is seems really good,
any feedback/anyone got one?

http://www.dixons.co.uk/product.php?sku=009391&camp_id=ppc_Camcorders&gclid=CNrpj-6CopUCFQ-mQwodDSS9kA

[GCW]

You want an opinion after you bought one?

I for one believe you get what you pay for in the HD camcorder field.

Your Samsung records to memory card.  Personally, I would always go for something that records to mini-DV tape.  Better transfer rates and quality, less errors.
The touch screen is funky, but adds to things that can go wrong.
It records at 50p.  Other formats are more useful.
It's NOT full HD, it's only 720p.
It's a 1 CMOS sensor, but for 300 quid that's not a surprise.

I don't mean to be mean, just an honest opinion.  This is not a full HD camcorder, and has few features.  I would prefer mini-DV.

But at the price it's OK.  But for another 2-300 quid layout, you could have the dog's.

[philo]

meh like you say you get what you pay for. for what its worth its only going to be used really for small bouldering trips etc, the quality etc should still be up to scratch
cheers for the healthy criticizm, i posted it as i was about to buy but i decided to do so anyways
ill post feedback when i get it, but i expected it to be OK, it doesnt mention battery life really tho so thats my main issue with it, we will see!

[GCW]

Cool, let us know how it performs.
Some reviews are favourable, others are not.

I got my Canon HV20 for well under 600 quid (outdated now).  I'm very glad I spent a little more, if you haven't seen the vids check out the reduced qaulity 720p films.

i hope it works for you.  Post some vids in the NQBV thread too!!

[DubDom]

You want an opinion after you bought one?

I for one believe you get what you pay for in the HD camcorder field.

Your Samsung records to memory card.  Personally, I would always go for something that records to mini-DV tape.  Better transfer rates and quality, less errors.

It's NOT full HD, it's only 720p.

Tape is good for archive but dropout is an issue. You'd be amazed b=how many pro format cameras are now solid state. 720p is an HD format. Whatever people tell you there really is no such thing as 1080p.
Small cameras tend to crap out in low light. Also the formats tend to be heavily compressed. Just make sure that your editing system likes the format specced. There are a lot of weird corporate alliances regarding formats (E.g: apple/panasonic: good, sony/anyone else awkward)

[GCW]

I still consider tape to be gold standard.
Unc and I have discussed this and between us I suspect we've had 3 dropouts in well over 50 hours of video (sound right Unc?) and mine were because I was naughty and re-used a tape.  And there's a lot of top end video kit that uses tape in preference to solid state.  It will take over in the end, but not yet.


Yes, 720p is HD just not full quality.  And I didn't want to start getting into 1080i etc etc discussing a camcorder that doesn't have it

Small cameras tend to crap out in low light. Also the formats tend to be heavily compressed. Just make sure that your editing system likes the format specced.

Again, you get what you pay for.  But if it's got fully manual settings you can get around lighting issues to a degree (using a tripod).

Anyway, how is the camcorder, philo?

[unclesomebody]

I have to say that I agree with GCW. In the world of HD camera's there is a very clear winner (in the consumer category) and this is the HV20/30. If anthing, this is still the winner up until you get to the £2k pricepoint. However, as you wrote Philo, you bought this for "small bouldering trips" and if you're not that arsed about the quality then I'm sure it will look fine. There is a huge drawback to this camera though which is the fact it records in h.264 at 12mpbs. No serious HD camera records in h.264 for a start, and that is a low bitrate. h.264 is not lossless (at that bitrate anyway!) and so simply recording on the camera has introduced the first generation of quality loss. Then when you come to edit it you're going to introduce your second generation of loss. Whilst this may sound like technical jargon, and in reality you might not even notice, there will come a point when you look at someone elses HD video and ask yourself "why doesn't mine look that good?". The other strange thing is that your camera records in 50p which means you're going to have to do something to get it to 25p in order to make it deliverable. As far as I know, none of the online video sites (vimeo etc) will display 50p. They all re-encode to 24p (or 25p). Going from 50p to 25p in the best possible way won't be easy, but once again, you probably won't notice the difference without a really keen eye. Even though I've pretty much slated this camera, it is going to show you video that you will like and unless you really get into it, you have no need to worry. I'm just neurotic and am forever chasing the highest quality.

It comes down to expectation. Don't expect too much and you won't be disappointed. If you've never had a camcorder before or if you've previously had an SD camera then you will definitely like what you see. No doubt about it.

Dubdom. 1080p does exist. Really. In fact, the HV20 can produce 1080p footage via a live HDMI output to something like a blackmagic card. The top HD camera are moving over to solid state drives, but they are using very high bitrates and storage is on specialist cards (like p2) which are very expensive. The best low light camera in this class is the HV20/30 as it has by far the largest sensor.

Also, I have just bought another HV20 because I gave mine to my brother. I paid less than £300 delivered.

[DubDom]

I still consider tape to be gold standard. And there's a lot of top end video kit that uses tape in preference to solid state.  It will take over in the end, but not yet.


Yes, 720p is HD just not full quality.  And I didn't want to start getting into 1080i etc etc discussing a camcorder that doesn't have it

Small cameras tend to crap out in low light. Also the formats tend to be heavily compressed. Just make sure that your editing system likes the format specced.

Again, you get what you pay for.  But if it's got fully manual settings you can get around lighting issues to a degree (using a tripod).

I've recently shot on a "Red" camera, regularly use a panasonic HD (which goes to P2 cards or firestore) - which is 720p format. I can't remember when I last used my HDV camera - I don't like it. The workflow is so much better on tapeless format. Solid state is already here.

Noise becomes really bad very quickly on some of these small cameras and when that is combined with heavy compression, my experience is that it sucks and the issue of whether you shoot handheld or not is immaterial. HDV as a tape format for example with it's heavy mpeg2 compression is most definately not gold standard, its a rubbish format. The beeb don't even class it as High Def! The whole camcorder market (both pro and amateur) is a bit of a minefield at the moment. Sorry to hijack the topic. I guess the upshot is try shooting in low light as a test and get the best lens for the cash. I regularly use a SD pro camcorder with a really nice canon zoom and the shots from that beat my sony HDV in difficult conditions hands down. All these small cameras look quite good when there's loads of light - it's when the light's tricky that they are shown up.

[DubDom]

Honestly

Do some research and you'll find that all the current 1080 deliverables are some form of interlaced format, it's a complex argument, but I think that only digital cinema formats run at progressive rates high enough to return this quality. They all claim 1080p but it's actually not true progressive. I actually think that the codec issue can be a bit of a nightmare. Look for the best chip, the best lens and the lowest compression.

[unclesomebody]

Honestly

Do some research and you'll find that all the current 1080 deliverables are some form of interlaced format, it's a complex argument, but I think that only digital cinema formats run at progressive rates high enough to return this quality. They all claim 1080p but it's actually not true progressive. I actually think that the codec issue can be a bit of a nightmare. Look for the best chip, the best lens and the lowest compression.

Well, this is what I know. Capturing a live feed via the HV20's firewire out will give you true 1920*1080. The HV20 will also record in 24p (although it will be in a 60i envelope) so performing the correct inverse telecine you can get true 24 fps progressive. Bypassing the tape you aren't limited in the same ways you are as when you record to tape, and so you remove many of the issues with HDV. In fact, when shooting via live firewire you also get a 4:2:2 colourspace. The HV20 has a lot of power up it's sleeves, but I guess not many people know and even less really care!

If all that means that it's not really 1080p then I am actually wrong and I'm willing to admit it. But, as far as I know, I am right. Clearly you know far more than me about video but I'm not sure how much you know about the pocket rocket that is the HV20! Please feel free to prove me wrong as the more knowledge the better!

[unclesomebody]

I just thought I'd add that I'm not trying to say the HV20, tapes, and HDV are the be all and end all. Simply that, for the price point, they are currently the best options. Given the choice and the cash I would be joining you Dubdom in the land of high end prosumer cameras like the Sony EX1 and kiss goodbye to tapes! I'd much rather than a 20TB raid array than a box full of tapes! Unfortunately I'm not loaded enough!

[GCW]

DubDom, I can see where you're coming from, but you seem to be referring to absolute quality rather than budget.
I assume you'll asccept that 1080i is still superior to 720p?  Assuming the data rates are comparable.
Also, last time I looked into into it the data error rate (ie saving of video to HDD) on the Sony HDR-SR12E was higher than the drop out rate for the HV20.  Comparable kit (although the Sony is 3-500 quid more).

What Unc and I are saying is that at the price Philo is talking about, you could get a much better HDV camcorder with better lens and sensor, and more types of file choice.   

[DubDom]

No all I was address were side issues maybe, just that 720p shouldn't be discounted. 1080i is fine, but if you want progressive "film look" images and a really nice image, then panasonic's format is actually really good. The other thing I was commenting on was just that I am now convinced that capturing on tape with sony's current format isn't great. I like the new tapeless formats. The Sony HDR-SR12E I know, but I don't know the Canon. That's a personal choice but I haven't had any dropout yet on solid state - tape yes. I totally agree with the last thing you said, go with the lens and sensor. All the issues on format are secondary.

Unclesombody -  you may be right about the live firewire feed being that good, but you would have to be going around with it hooked up to a firestore, so that's a bit academic (as all of this may be!). HDV is natively 4:2:0 colourspace, so if it can give you a 4:2:2 feed that's still impressive, but you'll never get it on tape. Going from "24p" into 60i and back would surely just result in field doubling (or possibly segmented progressive) - the equivalent half of the true 1080 resolution - which is still nice but not as nice as 720p! 1080i is long gop compression (15frames) as opposed to 720p which is shorter (6 frames), Which means that dropout causes more problems - so I was just thinking that 720p is a valid option -that's all. A long answer to a comment I noticed about 720p not being HD. Interestingly the top of the range Panasonic HD (the varicam) was only 720p until recently.

Cameras are a bit of a minefield at the moment, (as are flatscreen tv's) and a lot of what is touted as being "standards" turn out to be marketing nonsense. The true test is probably going and testing the camera and checking how it works with whatever editing software you have.

[philo]

i can confirm that this camera is crisp clear and really worth it tbh
its really small but not that it matters when its on a tripod
only problem is, it crashes programs that i open the files (mpeg format) as i know i prob dont have the right codec, getting a HD software editing package is a bit of a pain but when i have time ill sort some vids out for you punks so you can judge for yourselves. 

[GCW]

As long as you're happy with it, Philo, that's the bottom line.
DubDom- 720p hasn't been discounted, it's just you can get more for your buck.

Love from the HV20 posse

[DubDom]

Canon makes nice glass and good chips. Just getting exercised on the codecs topic!

[Krank]

Also, I have just bought another HV20 because I gave mine to my brother. I paid less than £300 delivered.

Thats a bargain, where did you find this, im after converting to HD and the cheapest i have found the HV20 is £550

[nik at work]

I'd also be interested in hearing where you sourced your new HV20 at that price Uncle.

[unclesomebody]

I bought it via the hv20 forums from a guy in the states. It's been used for an hour or so, which makes it used rather than new thus bringing the price down even more. It's worth pointing out that it's an NTSC version, which isn't for everybody. However, the ridiculous price differential and the fact that I'm very happy to shoot 24fps left me with a very easy decision! For a less involved user, I'd suggest sticking with a PAL version as your workflow will be somewhat easier!

You can buy brand new HV30's from a guy on ebay for £440. If you email him and ask him to send it from their US warehouse then you will get a better price. His name is electronic king. Once again, this is an NTSC version. Just make sure you confirm with them that they will be responsible for any import tax!

[Krank]

Cheers ,much appreciated

[GCW]

I got my PAL HV20 for under 500 quid, from cameras2u.com.  They only seem to do refurbished stuff now, but mine was brand new.  You just need to shop about, but you can catch good deals every so often.

[Adam Lincoln]

Just bought a HV20 off some dizzy bint on ebay. She turned it on, realised it was too complicated and put it on ebay. I got it for £390, used for no more than 5 mins. Ahh the rich are easy prey!

[Adam Lincoln]

Just bought a PAL HV20 off some dizzy bint on ebay. She turned it on, realised it was too complicated and put it on ebay. I got it for £390, used for no more than 5 mins. Ahh the rich are easy prey!

[GCW]

Such a good deal it was worth telling us twice!!

You won't regret it though Adam.

[Fatboy]

I thought I'd rekindle this thread as looking in to getting a HD camcorder myself!
Will mostly be used outdoors for bouldering trips, touristy type antics and general messing about...
I guess there have probably been a lot of technology steps since the last post here so... whats new??