[Bonjoy]

No I did not cut down the tree at the start of Indecent Exposure! (Have had two queries already asking if I was responsible)

To me it seems a bad thing to do. One reason being that the tree was a mature Ash Tree i.e. attractive and of wildlife value. Secondly because the tree was the start of several routes. And three because these routes seep at the start and climbing the tree allowed the wet section to be bypassed.

[Serpico]

That's gonna be a real pain, anybody care to own up and justify it?

[north_country_boy]

argh....that sounds bizarre?! Why would anyone prefer climbing up that slimey groove instead of the tree?

[Kingy]

Thats a shocker! Thats Body Machine taken out for 10 months of the year until somebody diverts the drainage in the field above the crag. Bummer. I heard it was no change in grade for the moves from the ground but it may well bump BM up to 7c+ and Indecent to 7c, who knows??

[Paz]

I find it hilarious that you have to post online to clear your name!

Maybe someone needed the firewood - there's not been any sooty stains under Ben's roof have there?

[Drew]

there's not been any sooty stains under Ben's roof have there?

What are you trying to say about the poor fella?

[El Mocho]

That tree was my favorite climbing at Raven Tor. For me any route which starts in a tree should get an extra star (that is why all these routes get 1 star?). I vote for installing a rope ladder.

[Johnny Brown]

Whoever did this is a retard.

[Percy B]

Its a damn shame. That tree has had more ascents than any other route at the tor, and was nicely polished to prove it! Although I like rock climbing, and was always a bit distressed at the thought of starting a climb by shinning up a tree, as a means of access to a number of very good routes that tree was essential and now it gone will make BM and Indecent far more unpleasant to start.

[dave]

.....The problem with this is the fact that anyone who visits the crag can see they've been chopped down is publicity enough for other people to then take it upon themselves to cut other trees down that they consider fair game.....

of course it could have just been local skutters (as has happened before there).

[belperpete]

Anybody that could cut down the Indecent tree would shoot a fox... Raven Tor, literally, won't be the same - bummer!
On a lighter note, have you seen the google ads, at the bottom of the page? As I type this, there is a preponderance of tree mulching, landscaping and tree surgeon services on offer!
Am I the only one that senses a conspiracy theory?

[Bubba]

You're right, google did it.

[bigphil]

I was waiting until I felt strong and then that tree was gonna be my first Tor ascent.  Bummer.

On a serious note though, whoever did it your a Tool.

[Bonjoy]

 Apparently someone has been suggesting that I must have cut the tree down based on the logic that I cut down the immature sycamore tree under Kudos wall and that I then subsequently removed a UKB thread about it to cover my tracks.
 As some of you might remember the reason that thread got removed was on Grimer's suggestion. He thought the thread and any subsequent brouhaha it may have triggered on UKC might be seen by someone connected to the landowner and that there was potential for this causing access problems. This was several days after the thread first appeared and the whole issue had had a good airing amongst many UKB users. I was more than happy to leave the thread up and argue the point as I think chopping down a small Sycamore tree that gets in the way of a good route, is a good thing to do, before it becomes a large Sycamore tree that gets in the way of a good route. However preserving access seemed more important than justifying my position. I'm pretty sure it was actually one of the other moderators who deleted the topic anyway.
 Just in case anyone is in any doubt. Yes I cut down a tree at Rubicon and it is not something i wish to hide from the world. Well considered active management of crags is a subject i'm always happy to argue the point on. This does NOT mean I am from that point onward the person responsible for every tree/branch felled in the Peak District, especially not this particularly brainless action!

[Bonjoy]

 People, especially the person/s suggesting I tried to brush the Rubicon thread under the carpet might care to recollect that as soon as I saw the thread which Dave started I posted up straight away taking responsibility for the action and stating my reasons why. Nobody knew I'd done anything and I could have totally ignored the thread if I wanted to keep my doings a secret. Hardly the actions of someone wanting to bury the subject.

[Serpico]

Just seen your UKC post, I think you should delete it. It's obvious you're unhappy that you're being fingered for this felling, but (I think) everyone on here accepts your word that you weren't involved. Over on UKC I think you're just going to attract a lot of unwanted attention from the great ill-informed.

[account_inactive]

I had a conversation with Simon Lee at the Tor on Saturday about the felling at Rubicon.  I didn't even know that one had been removed from the Tor!  Hope he didn't think that I meant the Tor one...........

I think it was a good idea to blitz the last thread too btw

[Bonjoy]

Just seen your UKC post, I think you should delete it. It's obvious you're unhappy that you're being fingered for this felling, but (I think) everyone on here accepts your word that you weren't involved. Over on UKC I think you're just going to attract a lot of unwanted attention from the great ill-informed.

I have deleted now.
If I come across as rather defensive about this it's because I've just come back from Chee Dale where all and sundry kept asking me if/why I chopped the tree down under Body Machine.

 Dylan - Simon Lee emailled me asking me about the tor tree. I guess he did get the wrong end of the stick.

[Jim]

can I have my stihl back now please Jon.....




sorry

[Obi-Wan is lost...]

can I have my stihl back now please Jon.....

Jim, Jon doesn't have your Stihl....

[GCW]

Jon,
Unfortunately this may well be one of those incidents where noone owns up and you may be left as a scapegoat on toss sites like UKC.
For what it's worth, I have no doubt in my mind that you're innocent.

[shark]

Jon- Sorry you got so wound up but at least the rumour got 'nipped in the bud' !. It seems I got crossed wires with Dylan - he hadnt noticed the absence of the Indecent tree!! and I knew nothing of this Rubicon tree so its not surprising there was a misunderstanding - and I am very old and get easily confused.

All- The reason I emailed Jon was because I know how chinese whispers work and because I thought it was highly unlikely that a climber did this, let alone Jonboy - I was asking not accusing him just asking.   

Best, Simon

ps Liked your 'wrong end of the stick' pun - only just picked up on it. 

[Jaspersharpe]

Surely the likelehood is that this was not the action of climbers. Why the fuck would a climber do this? It doesn't make any sense.

[Bonjoy]

 I know you were only asking Simon. I appreciated the straight forward question. Had you not asked me I wouldn't have been aware of a potential misunderstanding which might have led to a less easily nipped bud. I was wound up yesterday, I'm sanguin today.

[account_inactive]

Specsavers gave me a ring today to up my prescription

[El Mocho]

Spoke to some puns at the tor yesterday, apparently the tree was there at 9.00pm on friday. On sat morning (around 6.00) some guys from london turned up at the crag (they were camping, it was raining so they went as they would be dry) as soon as they arrived another team who were at the crag packed up and left (in a turquoise car) and the tree was gone. Got the impression they looked like climbers...

... apparently one had a gotee, talked about mushrooms all the time. What color is your car jon? (just kidding)

[Duncan Disorderly]

I read this at 9:30 today an am still shocked......

I just can fathom the motivation of anyone doing this.....

[Fiend]

No antennae, nothing to incriminate Bonjoy with...

I kinda support the ladder idea. What about a Bachar Laddar from a twin bolt by the normal transfer-to-rock point?? Would give a little warm-up too 

[dave]

I assume the cut-down tree is still there? if so, I think it would be the the true spirit of peak limestone that the tree be glued back in place with sika, or failing that we just recreate a rough approximation of the tree with car body filler. maybe use scaffolding poles as a skeleton.

[Paz]

On their behalf Bonjovi, I apologise for the people of UKC, who really seem to have excelled themselves. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Sycamores are invasive non natives (from canada?) but Ash trees are indigenous. 

I still want to throw you in a pond - if you sink you were innocent all along.  If you float, then you're guilty, of something ;-)/

[Alan James, Rockfax]

On their behalf Bonjovi, I apologise for the people of UKC, who really seem to have excelled themselves. 

Which comment on UKC are you basing this on? The thread seems fine to me, no outrageous speculation, just a lot of people lamenting the loss of the tree. The only post to have been removed from that thread was Jon's own which he removed himself.

Alan, UKC hat on

[MattH]

Looks like we'll be discussing this at the Peak Area Meeting on Wed this week. Traveller's Rest by the Roaches. 8.30pm. Climbing at Ramshaw first.

MattH

[slackline]

On their behalf Bonjovi, I apologise for the people of UKC, who really seem to have excelled themselves. 

Which comment on UKC are you basing this on? The thread seems fine to me, no outrageous speculation, just a lot of people lamenting the loss of the tree. The only post to have been removed from that thread was Jon's own which he removed himself.

Alan, UKC hat on

Perhaps Paz has excelled himself?

[Paz]

Alan and slack-line - the Brouhaha following the sycamore felling.  Not that I've seen it.

[Bonjoy]

On their behalf Bonjovi, I apologise for the people of UKC, who really seem to have excelled themselves. 

Which comment on UKC are you basing this on? The thread seems fine to me, no outrageous speculation, just a lot of people lamenting the loss of the tree. The only post to have been removed from that thread was Jon's own which he removed himself.

Alan, UKC hat on

Yes, I don't see anything untoward on UKC either.

 Alan, I replaced my post on UKC with a one liner, as suggested by Serpico and to avoid starting a fuss about the (IMO)rather insignificant Rubicon tree business. It was pretty much a straight copy of a couple of posts on here if anyone is really interested. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, given I already said I'd deleted a UKC post on this thread.

[Bonjoy]

Paz I said:

.... any subsequent brouhaha it may have triggered on UKC ....

Looking at it again I suppose you could read that as meaning some brouhaha had occured, but I mean't potential, as-yet-unrealised brouhaha

[slackline]

Alan and slack-line - the Brouhaha following the sycamore felling.  Not that I've seen it.

Ahh, a pre-emptive strike.

[Alan James, Rockfax]

Alan, I replaced my post on UKC with a one liner, as suggested by Serpico and to avoid starting a fuss about the (IMO)rather insignificant Rubicon tree business. It was pretty much a straight copy of a couple of posts on here if anyone is really interested. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, given I already said I'd deleted a UKC post on this thread.

Not trying to make any point against you, just defending UKC from Paz's rather curious sideswipe. I wanted to make the point that I hadn't tampered with the thread before coming on here.

Maybe we are both being a little defensive! I have no objection to you removing your post.

[ChrisC]

The only post to have been removed from that thread was Jon's own which he removed himself.

Alan, UKC hat on

That one - and the one Mick posted and then quickly removed.  It was in a typical Mick-'This will stir things up a bit'-Ryan style. 

EDIT - It's hardly important in the grand scheme of things though 

[Bonjoy]

Yes I'm being rather over defensive. I have something of a sense of humour faillure as far as being connected with this appalling incident.

[Paz]

Oh right, sorry.  I apologise for apologising.  And for in general for apologising too much.  Once again, I'm sorry.

[Obi-Wan is lost...]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Sycamores are invasive non natives (from canada?) but Ash trees are indigenous. 

Because it is invasive and exotic, sycamore is a controversial tree which some conservation bodies try to eradicate where it threatens to take over remnant ancient woodlands.

..or as my Gran (font of all gardening knowledge) said when looking at the numerous self seeded saplings in our garden..."You have a sycamore problem"

So Paz you are correct and Bonjoy you have Royal approval and (even better) the approval of my Gran.

[Sloper]

Now I'm not defending the deforestation but, in the grand scheme of things if the tree didn't have a TPO on it, if the tor isn't a SSSI and the land owner doesn't kick up a fuss is it (bar the change to the routes) that big a deal?

After all if there was anything that was likely to cause access issues then surely it would be the parking under the crag (an urban clearway, no really, well at least a clearway) and general climbers behaviour.

As for the people responsible I'd say the smart money is on a young plastic pulling wannabe who thought they could, after cutting the tree down claim a 'proper' ascent of one of the routes that commonly used the tree as a start.

I just don't buy any other explanation.

And just for the record, I don't approve of their actions.

[Fiend]

This time it's not an enviromental issue so much as a climbing tradition / route history issue.

[slackline]

This time it's not an enviromental issue so much as a climbing tradition / route history issue.

Which takes precedence and at what point do the scales tip from one to the other? ???

Probably worth attending the BMC meet to find out 

[Paz]

In reply to Sloper & fiend % slack line. 

I think UKB needs to nominate someone to keep a watchful eye on 8a.nu, give em about 2-3 weeks to redpoint then check in monthly.  Also if there any dissident factions within the tree surgery community, they should be placed under what survailance powers we have.  Meanwhile, I'll go and make sure Extreme Ironing hasn't been updatd in two and a half months. 

Bubba.  Cavers.  You know what to do.

[Ena]

if the tor isn't a SSSI

Actually it is, unit 26 of the Wye Valley SSSI, at least at the base. As is the whole of the valley down to Bakewell. Haven't read the designation yet, but there's some interesting reading for this and the related NNRs. PM for more info.