[DavidT]

Hey guys,

Ok so it's been a while (1yr plus) since i've trained properly and I'm struggling to even lift my arms up above my head let alone crank out a decent route around 7a!

Any advice for training routines to get back my strength back in and up the grades again

Currently on a diet and HIT Cardio plan to drop Body Fat back down to 8-10% I've got a fingerboard and pull up bar although not really on any strict training plans for them.

Ta.

[Paul B]

post up your diet/macro's and ill comment on that, check its actually right for fat loss, ps its HIIT.

I'd advise taking things slower than you might want, in my experience getting back into it is almost always rushed and leads to some kind of injury.

[Jaspersharpe]

Go bouldering lots and make sure you warm up properly. And take note of what Paul just posted about injury.

[DavidT]

Apologies, typo on the HIIT

I've cut calories down to 1750 (not planning on this low for more then 2-3 weeks) spread over 6 meals evenly with around 300 calories per meal. Worked out that I'm looking to drop roughly 15lbs fat.
Average daily breakdown is:
Kcal: 1750
Fats: 40-50g
Protein: 150g
Carbs: 150g
(High protein intake from protein rich foods and whey supps to minimize muscle loss from calorie restrictions)

Training:
Weights: mon, wed, fri
Interval Cardio: tues, thurs, sat
Fingerboard: tues, thurs, sat

I'm 5'11, 158lbs, bfat 18%
(I have previously used thermogenics to speed up the fat loss... with mixed results... any thoughts on this?)

Finding it really hard to climb the grades i used to, i guess due to increased weight and loss of muscle strength and general time out.

Any advice welcomed for a fat, out of shape weekling 

[Nibile]

aside of the routine, i think that being fat (altohugh 18% is not being really fat) and weak is THE perfect moment to get loads of climbing done. go there, do some mileage while you struggle on easy things and can't hold onto holds. that will blast your technique, you will try and find the best sequences, you will maximise every rest, you will kick down even the smallest or slopiest foothold. then, when you'll have some power back, just team it with your perfected technique and crush some big number.
oh, and welcome back.

[Jaspersharpe]

Wise words.

[moose]

Impressive schedule... but where is the actual climbing?  Personally, if at all possible, I'd go with jaspersharpe and nibile's suggestion to get on the rock.  A few good bouldering sessions to get the moves flowing and the fingers strong, perhaps the odd session at the wall to provide all-round base of burliness.   

Okay, I know bugger-all about "training", so maybe actual climbing isn't the most efficient means of getting strong again.  But, it's got to be better for the soul than a gym or a fingerboard and being amongst the stuff you're striving for should provide all the motivation you need. 

[Paul B]

Apologies, typo on the HIIT

I've cut calories down to 1750 (not planning on this low for more then 2-3 weeks) spread over 6 meals evenly with around 300 calories per meal. Worked out that I'm looking to drop roughly 15lbs fat.
Average daily breakdown is:
Kcal: 1750
Fats: 40-50g
Protein: 150g
Carbs: 150g
(High protein intake from protein rich foods and whey supps to minimize muscle loss from calorie restrictions)

Training:
Weights: mon, wed, fri
Interval Cardio: tues, thurs, sat
Fingerboard: tues, thurs, sat

I'm 5'11, 158lbs, bfat 18%
(I have previously used thermogenics to speed up the fat loss... with mixed results... any thoughts on this?)

Finding it really hard to climb the grades i used to, i guess due to increased weight and loss of muscle strength and general time out.

Any advice welcomed for a fat, out of shape weekling 

Firstly please take this post as a comment on what might be improved rather than what I think is the best course of action to improve your climbing.

My first thoughts are that you've lowered you're calorie intake too much, the deficit should be around 200-300 from your maintenance which is probably somewhere around 2500 given your weight. If you go too low you risk stalling your metabolism. 15lbs is hopefully spread over more than 2-3 weeks, if it's not then again the process is being rushed and you risk losing lean body mass instead of your targeted fat (Consider the use of HMB to prevent this and a hit of protein, cottage cheese for instance before bed).
Your calorie breakdown also looks a little high on the Carbs side, 50% P, 30% C, 20% F seems to be a good cutting ratio. I don't want to sound patronising here as I'm sure you know but make sure all of the calories especially the carbs are 'clean', so for carbs make sure they're complex.
Thermogenics are a short term solution, speeding up the metabolism and helping fat oxidation, instead i'd look in to stacking sesamine (sesame seed oil extract) with fish oils. Green tea has also been proven to aid fat loss however you need to drink about 7 cups a day to get beneficial doses, thus it's usually easier to buy supplements. WARNING all of the above can have side effects, Loss of sexual desire from the sesamine, thermogenics make you sweat like a b*tch and green tea extract contains a lot of caffeine.

This all seems very intense if you've had a year off and I know of very few people who'd take their climbing to this level of commitment.

[Jaspersharpe]

Impressive schedule... but where is the actual climbing?  Personally, if at all possible, I'd go with jaspersharpe and nibile's suggestion to get on the rock.  A few good bouldering sessions to get the moves flowing and the fingers strong, perhaps the odd session at the wall to provide all-round base of burliness.   

Okay, I know bugger-all about "training", so maybe actual climbing isn't the most efficient means of getting strong again.  But, it's got to be better for the soul than a gym or a fingerboard and being amongst the stuff you're striving for should provide all the motivation you need. 

Plus if it's too depressing being weak on real problems then just go to the wall for a few weeks and boulder. Remember that it's just plastic and it doesn't matter if you're shit to start with. Shortish, intensive sessions, stop strong (relatively speaking!). You'll see quick gains and it will help the motivation.

My advice is based only on what I did after taking about 12 years off from climbing (and exercise in general). I knew that I couldn't have coped with the frustration of being utterly rubbish outside to start with so did four months of basically just going to The Works twice or three times a week in the run up to a trip to Font. A year later and I've still not done any proper training (every time I start to I seem to injure myself - see above- and I'm battling laziness) but two/three times a week, outside as much as possible has got me from 6B to 7C.

If you combine this with a sensible plan to get some weight off - I know nothing of such things so can't help there -  I'm sure you will improve pretty rapidly. It's when you start to plateau that you need to actually train (note to self) but from a starting point of "completely shite" then just climbing should get you a long way.

[richdraws]

I would recommend a once per week weights session and keep it simple. I think 40-60 mins in the gym is enough for you if you are going to be doing a lot of climbing and road work. Any time in the gym can better be used climbing.
When you are in the gym; work the full body as efficiently as possible with fewer exercises and less variety than everybody else. Never read anything by Arnold or anyone involved in the fitness industry it is all geared towards selling product.

So deadlift and bench press.
If you want to reap muscle mass do 1 or 2 sets of 20 reps in the deadlift (after a warm up) using heavy weights in a strict form - this should waste you.
For pure strength consider doing 5x5's in the deadlift.

You could swap shoulder presses for bench presses if you like. 2 or 3 work sets is more than enough.
This should be about 40 mins work. Then get out of the gym and stay away from it for a week.

Muscular fitness can be trained by volume (3-6 days a week), though strength is always the foundation.

[Paul B]

I would recommend a once per week weights session and keep it simple. I think 40-60 mins in the gym is enough for you if you are going to be doing a lot of climbing and road work. Any time in the gym can better be used climbing.

I hope you're referring just to this case ?

When you are in the gym; work the full body as efficiently as possible with fewer exercises and less variety than everybody else. Never read anything by Arnold or anyone involved in the fitness industry it is all geared towards selling product.

I agree with your first point: Compound for the world. The latter is a load of crap, Arnolds bible is NOT geared towards selling any kind of product, his theories have just been proven to be incorrect. As long as you don't get a program from maximuscle.com or from Hello Magazine or Men's Health I think you'll be fine.

So deadlift and bench press.
If you want to reap muscle mass do 1 or 2 sets of 20 reps in the deadlift (after a warm up) using heavy weights in a

Why so high in the sets all your doing here is improving vascularity?

You could swap shoulder presses for bench presses if you like. 2 or 3 work sets is more than enough.
This should be about 40 mins work. Then get out of the gym and stay away from it for a week.

WTF? Why swap shoulder press for Bench?

Barbell Military Presss:
Target

    * Deltoid, Anterior

Synergists

    * Pectoralis Major, Clavicular
    * Triceps Brachii
    * Deltoid, Lateral
    * Trapezius, Middle
    * Trapezius, Lower
    * Serratus Anterior, Inferior Digitations

Dynamic Stabilizers

    * Triceps, Long Head
    * Biceps Brachii, Short Head

Stabilizers

    * Trapezius, Upper
    * Levator Scapulae

Barbell Bench Press:

Target

    * Pectoralis Major, Sternal

Synergists

    * Pectoralis Major, Clavicular
    * Deltoid, Anterior
    * Triceps Brachii

Dynamic Stabilizers

    * Biceps Brachii, Short Head

Both are extremely valid and both are generally a relative weakness for climbers. I remember reading that a study conducted found something like if your 1rm pull-up was 10% more or less than your 1rm Bench then you were in the highest risk bracket for developing a shoulder injury.

[richdraws]

Getting stronger or bigger is much easier than you believe.

Deadlifts and squats can be used to stress your body in a way that results in massive changes to your overall structure. The higher reps are not going to produce anything other than a systemically wiped body in a very short space of time (20 reps). If you are doing them correctly. Use a weight that you would do 10 reps with reasonably comfortably, but do 20 reps. You ought to feel pretty muck sick, dizzy etc.

Obviously deadlifts are going to be better than squats for climbers.

The reason I would say feel free to swap shoulders presses for bench or the other way around is because they are big movements and will strengthen your pressing muscles. Standing shoulder presses with dumbbells would be my choice. They are different muscle groups this is true but it is better to focus your efforts on getting strong rather than worry about which specific area of the deltoid your are working or which head of the tricep is getting most pumped.

Arnold is the exemplar of do as I say not as I do. Steroids and a very robust hormonal system got him that large. Non steroid using gods require more rest and hormone stimulating exercise that strengthens the body. It is well known that Arnolds training partners would last a few weeks before getting tonsilitus. Hormones are a large part of training.

Wear and tear from doing thousands of extra, useless exercises is far more likely to lead to injury than having developed a body that can do double bodyweight deadlifts and bench or overhead press a large amount of weight.

It depends what your goals are as to how you put together your strength conditioning, but for a bit of extra muscular size this is going to work.

2 exercises then leave, crawling.

[Johnny Brown]

Ok so it's been a while (1yr plus) since i've trained properly and I'm struggling to even lift my arms up above my head let alone crank out a decent route around 7a!

Any advice for training routines to get back my strength back in and up the grades again

Currently on a diet and HIT Cardio plan to drop Body Fat back down to 8-10% I've got a fingerboard and pull up bar although not really on any strict training plans for them.

The guy never mentioned gyms or weights?

I think folk are getting a bit carried away here, to get back to climbing around 7a you should be looking at doing as much climbing as you can fit in (where do you live?) plus some running/ cross-training to improve overall fitness. Add a few sets of pull-ups on that bar and fingerboard regularly and you'll be back in no time.

[richdraws]

He does, 3 times a week are his plans.

But I agree. I got carried away trying to straighten out the weights side, which is no doubt the least important part. 

[saltbeef]

Weights: mon, wed, fri

[Johnny Brown]

Sorry, my mistake. I'd agree this is the least important form of exercise to climb at this grade. Or in fact any grade.

[Paul B]

Yeah JB that was my first line as well.
Rich, I still don't agree that two exercises and leave crawling is the way forward. Even Ripptoe's starting strength (THE beginner program in many people's eyes) suggests more than that, 3 I think. If you drop the squats then you're left with Bench and Deads but you're dropping the squat because its non climbing specific so with that theory you'd sub in pendalay row (one of the additional exercises he suggests) instead as it IS climbing specific? You are the only person I've heard (I haven't read anything to that effect either) recommending 2 x 20 for this goal and I don't believe it to be correct, yes you're going to be wiped (as for being symmetrically wiped, you're doing something really wrong if you leave asymmetrically wiped) but its not necessarily an efficient way of doing things. 5 x 5 is commonly regarded as one of the best way to go for strength. Higher rep sets are used to increase vascularity (or endurance), usually before commencing a program or after a rest following a plateau, increasing the amount of blood that can be supplied to a given muscle before re-stressing it for strength or size gains.
I've no doubt that what you're suggesting will add size/strength but again I think it lacks in efficiency.
I don't agree with your injury statement either, if you use sloppy form you're going to hurt yourself but as that is basically the definition of failure; Unable to complete the next repetition whilst maintaining good form it's not an issue. Maybe you're getting at repetitive motions causing an injury but seriously how long have most people been climbing before they suffer from elbow issues etc. ? How many of these people have ever done reverse wrist curls before the problem started?  I bet you're going to have to do a hell of a lot of strict bicep curls before this kind of thing becomes an issue.
Anyway I've probably dragged this topic off course so I'll shut up from now on...