[Zods Beard]

Gee, I wish I could visit this wonderful land where continental sorts levitate up problems without recourse to chalk, but I don't think I'll be able to. On our trip to Font earlier in the year, I was amazed by the amount of tick marks in almost every photo in our guide, and on the many problems in the forest. Were these all made by Brits? I think not. Yes, a minority of Brits may be guilty of this behaviour, but no doubt so are many others. Calling all British climbers scum is just antagonistic, and makes you guilty of a sweeping generalisation, yet you also claim to hate these (probably explains the smiley).

I think it's all to easy to blame the Brits for just about everything, but I expect many of the local climbers use chalk, and with the area being popular chalk build up is an obvious effect. But now access is threatened, some people shit the bed, and look for scapegoats. If chalk's so bad why did they ever use it in the first place? And I might ask you the same question.

[account_inactive]

I object to you making sweeping comments about UK climbers being scum as I respect the areas that I climb in UK and abroad.  I don't need you telling me to behave in a particular way when I already act responsibly

Have you been to this area or are you just talking off the top of your head? The climbers that have been CJD/Bonjoy/Cofe/Dave are amazed that the current amount of shit at the crag causes a greater problem.  I'm not sure about them but I find the use of excessive chalk to be less of a problem but then again I try to minimise my impact in ANY area (cleaning of ticks etc etc)

Do you think that risking losing access to someone's local crag  (possibly after months of negotiation) rather than just being a bit careful or buying something cheap is admirable behaviour?

I'm not risking access with my actions, see above

Or do you take exception to me exempting foreigners from that, simply because where I see this behaviour it's in the UK? I suspect, human nature being what it is, that I'd see the same if I lived elsewhere but I don't.

No I object to you calling UK climbers scum.  I see more shit and rubbish in France/Spain than I ever have in the UK as Bonjoy pointed out.

[i.munro]

Gee, I wish I could visit this wonderful land where continental sorts levitate up problems without recourse to chalk, but I don't think I'll be able to.

I'm going to repeat this cos clearly no-one's listening

I see this behaviour in the UK? I suspect, human nature being what it is, that I'd see the same if I lived elsewhere but I don't.  (so I don't see it)

& Dylan I'm not telling you how to behave. I was agreeing with your assessment of how climbers (as a group) behave.

[slackline]

Never been, but personally I feel that addressing the indiscriminant brown torpedos would be of greater concern than the visual impact of chalk.  Not only is it unslightly (as chalk is) its also a "health risk" (especially if its an area where families with inquisitive children who are wont to rummage and pick things up frequent). 

Thats not to say that the two can't be tackled in tandem, but others are pointing out that there is a far more important issue that should perhaps be address before that of the unslightly chalk, which is in no way harmful to visitors health.

Its great that your highlighting the access issues, but I think you may have lost perspective by ranting on and on about chalk when there are turds lying around.

I don't actively seek them out, but of the crags that I frequent here in the UK I very very very rarely see human excrement and toilet paper lying around.  Thus whilst it may be that some visiting brits use chalk and don't clean it off, they're unlikely to be the ones defecating under the rocks.

Pure conjecture but what the fuck do I know 

[i.munro]

Its great that your highlighting the access issues, but I think you may have lost perspective by ranting on and on about chalk when there are turds lying around.

If the UK magazine article had chosen to omit any mention of 'turds' from it's version of the access restrictions & shown pictures of climbers carrying toilet rolls then I might have 'ranted' on about that.
First I knew about this issue was from this thread.

[Houdini]

Time the local authorities started paying for facilities.  Visiting climbers generate enough in trade to justify a few composting dunnies, what?  Jobby solved. 

Less expensive local government "debate" more direct action.  Shitting in a placcy bag and taking it elsewhere wouldn't harm too.

[Paul B]

I think attitudes need to change. People shit at British crags as well and its just not on.

[GCW]

Crag= Climb
Bog/WC/Toilet/Crapper= Shit

It ain't so hard to comprehend.
C'mon you fuckers.  Get it the right way round   

And, i.munro I'm sorry but I had to punter you for the "dynos don't exist comment".

[Jim]

If you've got to go, you've got to go tho.
People just aren't educated on how to shit properly outdoors, bury the turd somewhere discreet and burn the paper.

I love chalk, its fucked my hands forever but I still love it.
I also think that rock with a load of chalked up holds on it actually looks better but thats just my opinion.

[Jaspersharpe]

 

We were discussing this in Font the other week and agreed that chalk on holds from people climbing on them actually looks good but tick marks (or anything drawn on the rock) look fucking awful. As you say, it's just down to opinion but my opinion is that I love chalk. 

[account_inactive]

I had this same converstion in Swiss with Dobbin and the hero of Trad.  The 1st time I went to cresciano it was wet and I wasn't that impressed by the lines.  On this trip they were chalked up and looked amazing.  I'm not talking tick marks BTW.  I do wonder though what the general public think, if they think anything at all.

This might help people in the woods

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=xTA72GxFjasC&dq=how+to+shit+in+the+woods&pg=PP1&ots=I1oGpBYqAV&sig=BBkuvNe_O8B77Ieuc_Ugf4ei7Qk&hl=en&prev=http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=how+to+shit+in+the+woods&btnG=Google+Search&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail

[i.munro]

We were discussing this in Font the other week and agreed that chalk on holds from people climbing on them actually looks good ..

Thing is my opinion or yours are of no importance in Albarracin. According to 'Grimper' (crap translation by me) what matters is

"climbing is now regulated by decree 1146 of the 26 Mar 2007, available in Official Journal 45 of the region of Aragon of the 18th April 2007"

" a strict set of rules which must be followed to the letter if you don't wish to ,in the first place incur an astronomical fine but also more importantly, condemn the site to a final & definitive closure"

[Slide]

Was climbing with Jackie Godoff last month at Font and he had a chalk bag 
Didn't have a shit though!

[Jaspersharpe]

Thing is my opinion or yours are of no importance in Albarracin. According to 'Grimper' (crap translation by me) what matters is

"climbing is now regulated by decree 1146 of the 26 Mar 2007, available in Official Journal 45 of the region of Aragon of the 18th April 2007"

" a strict set of rules which must be followed to the letter if you don't wish to ,in the first place incur an astronomical fine but also more importantly, condemn the site to a final & definitive closure"

And the thing is that this is simply hearsay from an article you've read rather than the first hand knowledge given by people on here who have actually been there. Even if you take the article as gospel then does "following the rules to the letter" mean stopping using white chalk altogether?

I know nothing of the situation at Albarracin other than what I have read on here and on other websites but it would appear that those regulations were put in force over a year ago. Has chalk use been completely eradicated then or has climbing been banned and the site closed? Or is this not actually what the regulations state?

Surely, as Dave pointed out in the first reply on this thread, these are strict guidelines  on minimizing climber impact at a crag where access is an issue. This is something which we all feel strongly about but which you are attempting to turn into the usual "British chalk using cunts are ruining it for everyone else!" nonsense. Don't try to say you were only pointing out journalistic differences when you have written the statement that British climbers are scum.

Was climbing with Jackie Godoff last month at Font and he had a chalk bag

All the locals I've met there use chalk. The guy who showed me and Lagers round Sabots last year (a proper Bleausard who had the whole crag dialled) borrowed my chalkbag to show us a traverse as he only had a big bucket one. The only people I ever hear complaining about the use of chalk (not the misuse or overuse but just using it full stop) are British.

This is just from my experience.

Ian, you say that you only spoke about UK climbers actions because you live here and therefore that is what you have seen and are qualified to comment on. However although you don't live there you have climbed extensively in Font. Perhaps this means that you have never seen French, Spanish, Dutch, American etc etc climbers using chalk in the forest? I would suggest that this is bullshit of the highest order and a poor attempt to backtrack from a very offensive and incorrect generalisation. But that's just my opinion. 

[i.munro]

Don't try to say you were only pointing out journalistic differences when you have written the statement that British climbers are scum.

Sorry to be rude  but I can't be bothered with this any further except to point out that I didn't' say that.

I said (in response to Dylan's comments that  climbers wouldn't change their behaviour to preserve access)
that climbers ( I should have written in general but assumed it was obvious) are Scum.

I then amended this to be slightly less sweeping by limiting it to UK climbers as the access agreement I see being regularly ignored is at Eridge Green & I'm confident nobody sane  is travelling from Spain or Provence to go there.

[slackline]

Don't try to say you were only pointing out journalistic differences when you have written the statement that British climbers are scum.

Sorry to be rude  but I can't be bothered with this any further except to point out that I didn't' say that.

Really, its a wonderful thing t'internet, what you write remains there (sometimes for years after a web-site has been taken down, archived away by some web-bot-crawler...

At the end of the day it is a situation that can only be sorted out by the locals with mediation

They appear to me to have done so (resumably after a great deal of work)& made a simple & easily complied with request but you think people would rather lose access than modify theur behaviour slightly.

Scary thing is from what I see on sandstone & at Bleau you're probably right.
God climbers (at least brit climbers) are scum!

You started off general, and specifically singled out British climbers as being scum.

[Jaspersharpe]

I'd best give my opticians a call. These contact lenses are obviously playing up.

[GCW]

I said (in response to Dylan's comments that  climbers wouldn't change their behaviour to preserve access)
that climbers ( I should have written in general but assumed it was obvious) are Scum.

Yeah, we get that.  You've said it twice now.  But you only said

God climbers (at least brit climbers) are scum!

once.

You said what you said, whether you said what you meant or not.  And it's obviously rubbed people op the wrong way.  So maybe you should admit you were wrong  Or stand by your comment.

[account_inactive]

I think you are misquoteing me here.  I didn't say that climbers wouldn't change their behavior.  I pointed out the rather more pressing issue of litter/shit at the crag.

[i.munro]

Scary thing is from what I see on sandstone & at Bleau you're probably right.
God climbers (at least brit climbers) are scum!

You started off general, and specifically singled out British climbers as being scum.
[/quote]

No (read it) I specifically exempted others from my description because of lack of evidence.

[Houdini]

I think it would be extraordinarily rude of me to do so, so I won't.  But I could  n a m e  numerous British climbers I know personally to be scum.  I could provide evidence as to why they are scum too (where they shit is the least of their crimes I assure you).  But I don't think it's something you should run w/ too far:  the turds are still there, smiling.

 

[account_inactive]

Are you smoking crack?

Which part of

God climbers (at least brit climbers) are scum!

do I not understand?

You made a sweeping generalisation of British climbers.  End of story.

Stop trying to make out that none of use would change our behavior to retain access to an area.

[i.munro]

I think you are misquoteing me here.  I didn't say that climbers wouldn't change their behavior.  I pointed out the rather more pressing issue of litter/shit at the crag.

Now who's suffering selective amnesia
"The authorities have to decide if they want climbing there or not as people are not going to start using coloured chalk."

[slackline]

Scary thing is from what I see on sandstone & at Bleau you're probably right.
God climbers (at least brit climbers) are scum!

You started off general, and specifically singled out British climbers as being scum.

No (read it) I specifically exempted others from my description because of lack of evidence.

I did read it, and since you seem to enjoy being pedantic I'm going to run with it.

Using "at least" is not an exclusion, in this sentence you are using it to mean that at the minimum you feel British climbers are scum, but that there are others nationalities who may well fall into the "scummy" category.  There is no implicit or explicit exemption of non-British climbers at all in this sentence.  

Now this may not have been the feeling you wished to convey, but without the possibility to interact in person and further explain yourself readers of this thread have only what you have written to understand what you are trying to convey.  I'm pretty sure that the above interpretation is correct (from a formal logic standpoint) and  its pretty clear that I'm not the only one who interpreted what you had written as singling out British climbers as scum (check the thread yourself to see how many people have taken offence at what you've written).

Anyone got a bike with a reverse gear on?

[account_inactive]

I said that they are not going to use colored chalk.  I didn't say that they would not climb there or not use chalk at all