[i.munro]

Can I draw peeps attention to this

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=296681&new=4392722#x4392722

I thought it might be important

[dave]

as far as I understand the "try to not to use much chalk" thing is no different in albarracin than anywhere else - the more serious chalk issue is not climbing/chalking problems which face the main forest tracks - this is part of the official guidelines.

[i.munro]

as far as I understand the "try to not to use much chalk" thing is no different in albarracin than anywhere else - the more serious chalk issue is not climbing/chalking problems which face the main forest tracks - this is part of the official guidelines.

The 'Grimper' article seemed clear that it was visual pollution that was a threat to access.
Tick marks were mentioned in particular as well. This seems also to be the case on the Albarracin website
as it is in a list of rules  which finishes with the statement

"Those Rules are an important compromise between climber’s community and Park authority,...."

This sounds to me (& I haven't been) to be a bit more critiical than in other places where  chalk & tick marks just bugger up the climbing for other climbers & the lndowner or whatever doesn't even think of it as an issue.

[Bonjoy]

I'd have thought the vast amounts of used toilet roll might represent a greater threat to access 
Like dave says brushing off excess chalk should be standard routine. That said a chalky hold is going to stay white on red sandstone no matter how much brushing you do (unless water is used).

[i.munro]

Like dave says brushing off excess chalk should be standard routine. That said a chalky hold is going to stay white on red sandstone no matter how much brushing you do (unless water is used).

I find it amazing  that when I , or apparently the editorial staff of Grimper or the Spanish guys doing the negotiations know two things

1) Access is subject to no visual pollution
 &
2) a chalky hold is going to stay white on red sandstone no matter how much brushing you do

we seem to conclude "we must either avoid chalk or possibly use this coloured stuff."

Whereas those in the Uk seem to conclude "I'll just carry on as usual then. It's only foreign after all"

[account_inactive]

I'd have thought the vast amounts of used toilet roll might represent a greater threat to access 
Like dave says brushing off excess chalk should be standard routine. That said a chalky hold is going to stay white on red sandstone no matter how much brushing you do (unless water is used).

I agree.  The mess of toilet paper is so much worse than chalk marks. 

The authorities have to decide if they want climbing there or not as people are not going to start using coloured chalk.

At the end of the day it is a situation that can only be sorted out by the locals with mediation

[i.munro]

At the end of the day it is a situation that can only be sorted out by the locals with mediation

They appear to me to have done so (resumably after a great deal of work)& made a simple & easily complied with request but you think people would rather lose access than modify theur behaviour slightly.

Scary thing is from what I see on sandstone & at Bleau you're probably right.
God climbers (at least brit climbers) are scum!

[Bonjoy]

 When I was in Albaracin, I saw nobody of any nationality either abstaining from chalk or using coloured chalk. Did you see otherwise when you went? I think this is more a case of words in negotiations not equating to action on the ground rather than british visitors behaving badly whilst our european counterparts do the right thing. When I was there I saw a fair few people showing little respect for the crag by camping in the carpark with attendant litter/bog-roll problems and being excessively load at the crag, they were all Spanish.
 Could you please give me a link to an internet supplier of coloured chalk, or let me know which shop you bought your's at? You did use it I presume?

[account_inactive]

When I climbed there I:

a: Didn't camp in the car park
b: Didn't shit at the crag and leave bog paper
c: Didn't use excessive chalk

I did however:

a: Clean off my tick marks
b: Pick up other peoples rubbish
c: Respect the area


Fuck off i.munro

[slackline]

God climbers (at least brit climbers) are scum!

Theres only one god climber and I don't think many people would refer to him as scum...



(Perhaps you missed a comma )

I think you've taken Bonjoy and dave's comments out of context.

[dave]

basically the only way you're going to avoid visual pollution of chalk at albarracin is by banning climbing there, but even that won't work since all the roof or steep sections will stay chalked forever without pressure washing them. like lovejoy says, everyone there uses chalk, french spanish whoever, we even saw spaniards with wirebrushes. go on the web and see videos made by the locals - you'll see they're not shy of using tickmarks. this ain't brits abroad ruining it for everyone. and like dylan and jon have said, the shit everywhere is a greater concern. some people obvisouly find the look of chalk more offensive than having human shit all over their and their young kid's shoes.

[Bonjoy]

God climbers (at least brit climbers) are scum!

Frankly this is utter shit. I spent six months climbing around Europe last year and one thing that I was struck by time and again is how respectful UK climbers are of the crag environment compared to some europeans. It is par for the course to find crap and bog roll all over the place at Spanish sport crag in particular, screaming when you fall off is the done thing, dogs at the crag is the rule not the exception, people will camp all over the place regardless of local rules and litter is often not disposed of properly.
In contract take a look at an extremely popular crag like Stanage. Very little litter, very little shouting, very little shit and bog-roll.

[cofe]

i second all of lovejoy's comments re: albarracin. last year we did our research and respected the access issues when we were there. this thread is just an opportunity to make sweeping generalisations about british climbers.

[Andy B]

The turds at Albarracin are everywhere! I think the dry environment there makes this problem more noticable as the poo and paper doesn't get washed in the ground and broken down as fast, as other places. I remember the ends of crags in the Frankenjura being minefields of shit too, but the worst place ever was the woods bordering the free camp site near cuvier. Castle Hill has long drop toilets and was pristine when we visited. No toffee logs, paper, litter, excessive chalk or many tick marks. The answer is clearly to only climb on limestone.

[i.munro]

this thread is just an opportunity to make sweeping generalisations about british climbers.

That's sweeping generalisations about British climbing magazines thank you very much.
Or at least that's where it started.

To clarify, my view is that if the local activists at any area I visit ask me to do something
(dress in wizard's robes, wear women's clothes, even something as bizzarre as not bolting perfectly good gritstone) whatever, I will go along because they know the local situation & it's them who have to live with the consequences.

Whether other visitors do or don't is an issue for them. I'm not going to use it as an excuse.

[galpinos]

I'm assuming this thread hasn't got anything to do with your general "anti-chalk" stance?

[account_inactive]

I think i.munro was trying to juxtapose English and French opinions on chalk

[i.munro]

I think i.munro was trying to juxtapose English and French opinions on chalk

I was suprised by the difference between the respective standards of journalism.

As to my views on chalk they came from doing what I sad above & not using it in Bleau because that's what the local guidelines said. After a while (& a bit of pointless faffing around with pof) I realised that
" bugger me they're right" it does make the rock slimy."

[cofe]

this thread is just an opportunity to make sweeping generalisations about british climbers.

That's sweeping generalisations about British climbing magazines thank you very much.
Or at least that's where it started.

God climbers (at least brit climbers) are scum!

make your mind up.

is the grimper article recent? i read one a few years ago which was good, likewise one in Escalar. i'll read the article in climber at some point and probably agree to a certain extent on one point with you. until you've actually been to albarraccin and experienced the situation we'll disagree on the other shit, as it were.

[i.munro]

make your mind up.

I did say that I started wittering on about journalism.
Then got a bit narked that everyone seemed to think that somehow being told not to use white chalk somehow doesn't count.

It was the current issue about a month ago. FWIW when & if I get round to going  (assuming theplace hasn't been closed by then) I shall be doing my very best not to add to the bog roll mountain.

[Jim]

So you recon you can climb fine without chalk? so why use it at all then?

Like Dave sez:

basically the only way you're going to avoid visual pollution of chalk at albarracin is by banning climbing there, but even that won't work since all the roof or steep sections will stay chalked forever without pressure washing them.

Also smoking in public places is banned in spain but that hasn't stopped them one bit

[Jaspersharpe]

Same in Italy. Everone, including the coppers, still seems to smoke where the fuck they like.

I fucking love chalk. As a sweaty fingered greaser it makes a MASSIVE difference to me.

Clean holds properly, don't put tick marks everywhere, no problem.

[Houdini]

I advocate a Hueco-style approach.  Alberracin should be patrolled by people w/ power to force you off the land.  Their salaries will be paid for by an entrance fee to the hillside, your time there will be limited and booked in advance.   Additional funds generated will be spent on establishing toilet facilities.  Camping will be disallowed.  Fires will be disallowed.  White chalk or pof will be disallowed; sand-coloured chalk will be sold on site.

How does that song go?  You only know what you've got when it's gone . . .

[c.j.d.]

I think the main problem that may decide the access of Albarracin, and probably most other highly visited areas that we go to,  is 'shit'.  Albarracin in particular has a massive problem with this - have you checked out Parking Area 1 - pretty disgusting.  I think pretty much every boulder here has a dump or two underneath (or not hidden at all), with bog roll every where. Its not so bad further into the forest, as I guess people willing to walk further to boulder, will no doubt, walk further to crap, and bother to hide/bury it.

I think it's pretty ironic these days.  I think we all frown upon dog owners who casualy walk on after letting there dogs foul the pavements on the streets where we live i.e 'For fucks sake, clean up after your dog', but then find it okay to shit under the odd 8a here and there.  We all get caught short, but only some of us deal with it in a correct and polite manner.

End of rant.

[i.munro]

Fuck off i.munro

I don't know what you're getting so bent out of shape about.

You said
"The authorities have to decide if they want climbing there or not as people are not going to start using coloured chalk."

& I agreed that you were probably right (from what has happened in other areas).

Do you think that risking losing access to someone's local crag  (possibly after months of negotiation) rather than just being a bit careful or buying something cheap is admirable behaviour?

Or do you take exception to me exempting foreigners from that, simply because where I see this behaviour it's in the UK? I suspect, human nature being what it is, that I'd see the same if I lived elsewhere but I don't.