[i.munro]

Further to my 'old & infirm' thread I have now become convinced that my problem is, to paraphrase Jas, that I have 7b fingers & 7a arms connected by 6b shoulders.

(incidentally Serpico managed to diagnose this over the net impressively enough)

Question is what do I do about it?
 I've been doing physio-recommended rotator cuff stuff external rotation & lateral raises.
But I need to be able to lock my shoulder in (the correct?) position while I lock or dyno.
Anyone know how to train that in isolation? It seems to have got left behind.

The physio said I had to seperate my shoulder blades then rotate them 'out & down'.
She may as well have said the same about my ears! I have no idea where they are or should be unless I have 2 mirrors so I can see my back.

Thanks as always

[Jenn]

Not too sure what you mean - do you want exercises to stabilise your rotator cuff or do you want to know the correct form for doing pull-ups?

If the latter - check out the bottom of this page:

http://www.planetfear.com/article_detail.asp?a_id=888

[SA Chris]

I really don't know much, but therabands are pretty good for doing this kind of exercise.

Reckon GCW is the man.

[i.munro]

Not too sure what you mean - do you want exercises to stabilise your rotator cuff or do you want to know the correct form for doing pull-ups?

Not the latter I think. I think I'm doing 2-arm pullups with my shoulders locked.
The problem may be that I can lock-off (just about) one armed & that requires much more from my shoulders than my best 2-armed pull-up (which is about body weight + 30%) so roughly 60% of body weight per arm.

[Serpico]

Not too sure what you mean - do you want exercises to stabilise your rotator cuff or do you want to know the correct form for doing pull-ups?

If the latter - check out the bottom of this page:

http://www.planetfear.com/article_detail.asp?a_id=888

Pull ups done with correct form, as you posted, will strengthen the rotator cuff muscles which will stabilise the shoulder complex.
I think shoulder rehab should follow a progression; rehab the muscle using isolation exercises like thera bands, then move onto compound exercises like pull ups, press ups, etc, then take the form you've learned from pull ups and use it in system board exercises like gecko lobs and wide lock offs (see udini's site and the Moon school room for vids), finally apply it whilst climbing.
One good exercise for setting the shoulder blades is Scapular retraction: http://www.theshortspan.com/features/injury/shoulder.htm under "improving your posture".

[moose]

I think I'm a fellow afflictee.  I can do "fingery cruxes" but often fail on the "juggy romp to victory" - and am left to look enviously on at the campustastic yoof!

I've also had rotator cuff trouble a gammut of theraband exercises was most beneficial (when I remembered to do them).  The best routines generally used a loop of theraband that had to be slowly stretched out and then relaxed in a controlled fashion (hence closing and opening the shoulder blades under continuous tension).  For example, holding the loop at arms' length straight in front and then stretching it out to the sides until the band was running across the chest.  Do a search - there are plenty of sources such as the theraband-academy.  

Also, if you can find it, the last issue of Climber had some shoulder exercises.  Some theraband ones and a type of "press-up with shrug" that supposedly helped prevent / rehabilitate both shoulder and elbow injury.

[i.munro]

Thanks for all the references. I've seen & tried most of them & they do seem to have been effective in preventing any recurrence of shoulder problems.
However I was carefully comparing notes last night with one of the 'campustastic yoof' (like it BTW) & what was clear was that while I could easily match or outdo him on 2 armed stuff (like 2 finger on each hand deadhangs).
As soon as we went to one hand my shoulder went up around my ears & that was me finished (even on big jugs).

I don't see that i'm going to get that sort of training effect (ie 1/2 bodyweight) from therabands. It seems to me that I need to isolate the muscle/muscles involved in pulling the shoulder down & into place.

[Jenn]

I don't see that I'm going to get that sort of training effect (ie 1/2 bodyweight) from therabands.

Still a bit confused, sorry, but I've progressed from theraband exercises to very light free weights (lucky me), which isolate the most minuscule muscle / tendon groups along with some bigger ones.

Hmm - they're next to impossible to describe though - but let me try with one...

Lie on the floor with your left side facing down. Hold your right arm out at 90 degrees to your body and parallel to the floor. Now bend it at the elbow and hold a free weight (I can only manage 1.5kg!). Keeping a 'neutral wrist' and your elbow bent but not locked off, raise your arm until it is horizontal or in the same plane as your body.

Make sense - I didn't think so 

To train one arm lock-offs use a knotted rope to assist and gradually move your supporting hand up the rope to increase the intensity on the locked off arm.

[Jenn]

...take the form you've learned from pull ups and use it in system board exercises like gecko lobs and wide lock offs (see udini's site and the Moon school room for vids), finally apply it whilst climbing.

Cheers - more stuff to look into 

[i.munro]

...take the form you've learned from pull ups and use it in system board exercises like gecko lobs and wide lock offs (see udini's site and the Moon school room for vids), finally apply it whilst climbing.

Cheers indeed. Missed that first time round. (I blame work distractions) Looks like Serpico to the rescue as always.

Jenn I think I'm a lot further down the rehab road than you (basically injury free) so take it easy.

[Jenn]

Also possibly of some interest -Isolation Training

http://www.planetfear.com/article_detail.asp?a_id=201

[Dr T]

can't link directly put the video here could be useful

[i.munro]

can't link directly put the video here could be useful

Thanks that was useful. I have seen that before but had forgotten about the scapular depressions.
That looks like the sort of thing I'm after because it targets the area I think I want, ca be done with vaguely relevant amounts of weight & it can be done in a gym without having to trek to a wall.

Anyone had any experience with these?

[GCW]

More questions than answers I'm afraid.

Have you had cuff problems before?  Why did a physio tell you to do cuff exercises?
Did you start straight on theraband or do muscle programming first?

What feels weak when you do one arm locks?  Does your shoulder feel like it's going to pop out or something?

[i.munro]

More questions than answers I'm afraid.

Have you had cuff problems before?  Why did a physio tell you to do cuff exercises?
Did you start straight on theraband or do muscle programming first?

What feels weak when you do one arm locks?  Does your shoulder feel like it's going to pop out or something?

Yes I have had shoulder probs before (popping noise & slight discomfort).
Physio said as I understood it that I was carrying the shoulder blades wrong. Too high & close together rather than on the side of the rib cage & rotated 'down'??
If that sounds like gibberish it's my recall rather than her description.
IIRC straight into theraband but she gave me other stuff (scapular retraction??) that I really struggled with. As I said it feels like trying to make my ears rotate. I just don't know what to do to make either thing happen.

I can do one arm locks at 90% (albeit briefly) if I turn side on & the limiting factor here feels like bicep strength not hand.
If, however I try a deadhang with arm straight or near straight I just can't. Hard to diagnose why because it's so brief but I think I start to rotate around the shoulder.

Feels similar when I try to campus as soon as I take one hand off I start to twist & shoulder comes up meaning my body is going down as I'm reaching for the next rung.

[GCW]

So you let your shoulders drift up to your ears on pull ups and hangs?
Cuff power is important, but it is vital that you train your shoulder muscles to fire in the right order.  It is easy to allow the large muscles around the shoulder do the work of the cuff, which is detrimental overall.  In these cases you need to practice localising your cuff and using it for what it's for.  it takes practice.
Try sitting straight.  Pull your upper arm backwards using your cuff- all the muscles you can feel should remain relaxed.  Hard to explain.

[i.munro]

  Pull your upper arm backwards using your cuff- all the muscles you can feel should remain relaxed.  Hard to explain.

You're not  kidding it's hard to explain.
The physio was trying toget  me to do sort of mini-kneeling pressups with just the shoulder (without moving my arm). From what I've read possibly serratus punches, but I just couldn't feel any motion at all.
I have learnt to do the bottom of the range of two arm pullups without moving my arms (if that makes any sense)