[dpb]

Warmed up on Beat it.  Not the greatest but gets the blood flowing.  After that we got on Step on it.  Fantastic route!  No probs with the bolting on these on two routes.  I'm keen to get back and try the other routes.

Living in Derby, I'm enjoying all the hard work that you and people like Bonjoy/JC have been putting in in the South.  Should be good summer with High Tor, LTQ, Thor's n Turkey all available for some after work fun. 

If you do any more re-equipping/retro work I would be happy to contribute financially, almost feeling guilty about the route to investment ratio im getting.

[Bonjoy]

Can anybody tell me about 2 routes on there that I can't locate - El Capitan (Simon Lee) and Spanner in the Works (that's gotta have been done by Andy Spendlove - of the nickname 'Spanner', surely)? Cheers

I think (but I'm not sure) they are under ivy to the right of Scum Manifesto. You could always email Simon Lee via UKC to find out for sure.

[Bonjoy]

Useful topo. Everything is in the right place except for Matt The Hoople, which should be right of the far corner line. The line on the topo in the old peak limestone rockfax is also in the wrong place.

[belperpete]

Warmed up on Beat it.  Not the greatest but gets the blood flowing.  After that we got on Step on it.  Fantastic route!  No probs with the bolting on these on two routes.  I'm keen to get back and try the other routes.

Living in Derby, I'm enjoying all the hard work that you and people like Bonjoy/JC have been putting in in the South.  Should be good summer with High Tor, LTQ, Thor's n Turkey all available for some after work fun. 

If you do any more re-equipping/retro work I would be happy to contribute financially, almost feeling guilty about the route to investment ratio im getting.

:beer2:Cheers for that - I just want to see people climbing them, so it's great to hear what you say. BTW, at Turkey Dip, after 2 or 3 ups and downs on Beat it, once you've got the start of The Land.... sorted Jon's Pedal to the Metal 7b variation would get 'the blood flowing' a lot more - it's really juggy, but 'out there' (obviously). It's a brilliant route - just gives you a big buzz! Dequipping it is a sod though (leave the last one to get from ground level).
Turkey Dip was done completely out of our own pocket, as were the High Tor routes, so I suppose we're 'owed' a a couple of dozen bolts or so from the Peak Bolt Fund, but I'm not worried about that.
Any donations should go via the Bolt Fund at www.peakboltfund.co.uk managed by Bonjoy and would be most welcome.
Incidentally, if anyone knows of a potential business sponsor (tools, fixings type stuff) via work or friends let us know.

[belperpete]

Useful topo. Everything is in the right place except for Matt The Hoople, which should be right of the far corner line. The line on the topo in the old peak limestone rockfax is also in the wrong place.

I never knew that and it would explain one problem. There's more room to the right of Future Primitive than I thought then.
Jon, I emailed you about picking up those drill bits - any chance later on today? If so, what's the earliest I could get you at home?

[Bonjoy]

I replied. But in case it doesn't get through, yes, early eve after 5 is good for me. See you later

[belperpete]

I replied. But in case it doesn't get through, yes, early eve after 5 is good for me. See you later

Cheers for that.

[grimer]

Would people be into retrobolting much stuff in the Peak? It's one of those things that kicks round a lot as an idea. I really love trad limestone in the Peak, and think the routes are fantastic. And the one thing I would say about them is that they are very hard. They are often strenuous, technical, pumpy and a bit bold. No wonder people don't do them much. I don't do tons of it, but i do do it, and i think some of the routes i have done at Stoney, High Tor and WCJ are every bit as good as anything I have done on grit. I really enjoy the fact that they are traditional, and that really adds an extra challenge and for me, an extra buzz to doing them. I tried Wilt at Ravensdale last year, which felt desperate, almost 7a+ or 7b, locking off, placing little rock 2s and 3s, clipping old tat. My friend i was with did it, on his third day of trying it. It's a two star route, as the top is crumbly, but i would still be glad to spend three days trying it myself, it seems worth it.

I do think i am in the minority, however. People aren't doing these things much, are they? Would it be better to retro loads of things? I know myself that there are lots of routes i would try if they were retroed, and at the same time lots of routes i wouldn't like to see retroed. I thought, for example, On The Road was one of the best trad E3s I did in the Peak. But then everybody has their own personal opinions of what is acceptable and what isn't, which is where one of the problems come in.

My opionion is I can't think of anything I have done on High Tor or Stoney i woul like to see retroed. I wouldn't like to see OTR retroed. However, if those cracks were, I might go and try them. I know I would get tons more out of doing them as a trad route, but in reality, I am probably tons more likely to actually getting round to trying them if they were bolted.

Finally, I would say one thing. The cool thing about climbing is that bolts won't get put in those cracks as a result of any vote. Some day, if it's going to happen, someone who is sufficiently arsed will go and do it. They will get flak, the routes will get climbed or not, the bolts will get taken out, or more likely, not. Rocktalk will be up in arms, people will foam at the mouth and cite incidents from 1982, and everyone will be happy.

[Johnny Brown]

Yeah, I'd agree with that, except I'm unlikely to go and climb those cracks at all, bolting them certainly wouldn't add to the appeal.

I did Mad Dogs and Englishman down Cheedale once. This gets a great write up in the guide as one of the best trad routes in the dale. Well unfortunately you can reach the bolts on the crap sport routes either side all the way up so it no longer is. More respect should have been shown when these bolts went in, the route has been turned into an anachronism.

I think its wise policy that the fund doesn't cover retrobolting.

[grimer]

Yeah, i saw that. It just looked like a totally shit sport route - well, not a route at all. I'm pretty sure there was something on Rocktalk about this, maybe in the database regarding MDAE. The person who seemed to have put the bolts in seemed to have a totally shit attitude. It was no wonder he put up shit routes.

Although, to be fair, Johnny, I don't imagine that you should be taken as a barometer for what happens to Peak Limestone 

[Johnny Brown]

Au contraire, I think folk who climb too much on peak lime lose perspective on what 'quality' and 'worth' are. I am here to provide that.

[andy popp]

I'd agree with Grimer that a lot of Peak limestone, the tradding especially, is actually under-rated and undervalued and worth defending. I can't believe Grimer didn't mention Chee Tor, its one of my favourite Peak crags irrespective of rock type or climbing style. I suspect its under-utilised now but that shouldn't be a lazy exuse for retroing. Dovedale and the Manifold also offer huges doses of real charm and great quality.

[grimer]

And for that, Johnny, on behalf of the deluded masses who sometimes climb on grit, sometimes on trad limestone, sometimes on sport, sometimes at Font, at Ceuse, Verdon, Yosemite, Utah, Kyrgyzstan, Greenland, Gogarth, Fair Head, Helsby, Wilton and The Burren, I thank you.

[Jaspersharpe]

You missed off The School grimer.

I agree with andy about Chee Tor. It's belting and should certainly not be retroed.

[grimer]

... The School...

Actually, i think my point was that perhaps it is becoming time to think about a certain amount of retroing? I never lost much sleep when Max Wall, for example, was bolted up. I'm going into imagination mode here, but i imagine those E6 6b etc of Gary's were inspected on abseil etc and rehearsed to produce bold leads that were probably repeated, if at all, by Dougie and never again. I once belayed Stuart Cameron on one, who got a ways up and then reversed and bagged it. Stuart, at the time strong and fairly bold, wasn't going up there. Since I have done the route at 7a+ i think as a clip up. What's been lost and what's been gained?

I bet, Andy, when you did the bulk of your climbing on Chee Tor and Dovedale, it was quite 'in fashion', and therefore, clean and in good nick. I bet now there are 3 star trad lime routes that will never get an ascent in a year. I bet the pendulum of fashion will never swing back towards hard peak trad limestone. I bet the number of trad routes that never see an ascent grows year on year. I bet that won't change.

The best route I did last year was Behemoth on WCJ. Mind blowing. Safe, and totaly clean. Contradictions.

[Jaspersharpe]

I did some of those routes on Max Wall a very long time ago. I abbed them first though. The gear was fucking shit but the climbing piss easy once you knew what you were doing. I agree that they are better bolted (and actually climbed), they weren't great routes anyway.

Chee Tor is different though. The place is top quality and though it's a shame if it's not being used I would never advocate bolting it. Most of the routes were pretty well protected anyway. Decent fall potential on some but you weren't going to hurt yourself.

[grimer]

Yeah, well I would agree with all that Jasper. I went for a walk down Chee Dale last year, and Chee Torr looked to be in a poor state. Shame. On the same day there were probably ten car-loads of punters munching their way up Horseshoe. Maybe that's the point, thet there are some routes that would make better sport routes than trad, and if that's the case maybe they should be bolted, instead of becoming overgrown and never climbed?

Which brings us back to Lorry Porry Quarry.

[Johnny Brown]

And for that, Johnny, on behalf of the deluded masses who sometimes climb on grit, sometimes on trad limestone, sometimes on sport, sometimes at Font, at Ceuse, Verdon, Yosemite, Utah, Kyrgyzstan, Greenland, Gogarth, Fair Head, Helsby, Wilton and The Burren, I thank you

Are you suggesting I don't regularly climb in these or similar places? I like to think I have a pretty good handle on the breadth of climbing worldwide, which plays a big part in forming my opinion on the worth of some uk liestone venues.

I bet, Andy, when you did the bulk of your climbing on Chee Tor and Dovedale, it was quite 'in fashion', and therefore, clean and in good nick. I bet now there are 3 star trad lime routes that will never get an ascent in a year.

Indeed. El Mocho and I did a 'classic' E5 at Chee Tor last year and pondered this very question. It was filthy, and hard, and we only got up after some up-and-down tag team antics. I've no doubt it would be more popular if bolted, but does that automatically mean it has more worth? If its a difficult question - you start bolting the less 'worthwhile' lines and gradually the good trad routes become left as unpopular anachronisms or even ruined like Mad dogs.

[Jaspersharpe]

Perhaps Chee Tor (and other such places) just need a bit of a facelift? Replace the old fixed gear with bolts and clean it up. This, if publicised, would maybe increase popularity without ruining some classic trad routes by bolting them?

[grimer]

I know it's all a complicated problem with compromises in whatever path you take. I don't think you can argue the point, however, that a significant amount of Peak trad limestone is going into a state of disrepair and becoming unclimbable.

Donate to the PRBF 

[cofe]

chee tor is a fine crag. it needs cleaning and trafffic, not aerating. trad lime maybe isn't cool at the minute. maybe it will be in the future? maybe.

[Jaspersharpe]

Donate to the PRBF 

Good point.

[Bonjoy]

 It's a thorny subject and one where pragmatic discussion too often descends into moral absolutism.

 I do think these routes at Lorry Park are good looking routes which will never get repeated unless they are bolted. 20+ years of neglect is surely proof enough of this. Are they more valuable to us as symbolic lines in the sand or as high quality sport climbs? I don't know the answer to that. It does sometimes seem that the people totally against retro bolting are people who would never visit these places either way. If these obscure routes really are a valuable part of our trad heritage, why are they so comprehensively ignored by the climbing populace? Take Shazam at the Cheedale Cornice, one trad route in the middle of a sport crag. It is one of the few strong lines on the crag, but it isn't and hasn't been climbed in decades. Seriously, who is going to make the effort of abseilling (it's an epic job getting to the top of the crag) and spending the best part of a day cleaning the route (hence blowing the onsight), to do an E4 when there are a host of already clean ones on the other side of the river? It would be nice if there was a gang of enthusiastic trad climbers who made it their business to lovingly restore these routes, but in the absense of this the only way this route will ever get cleaned and stay cleaned is if it gets retroed.
 Some routes on peak limestone just don't lend themselves to being trad routes. This tends to be due to loose rock, a tendancy to get filthy quickly, no safe top-out, no other good trad in the vicinity and/or not much gear. Some routes were put up using pegs which have long sinces rotted away and blocked the placement. Some routes were put up as headpoints. Nobody headpoints on limestone anymore and I hope it stays that way. Due to filth and loosness these routes are sometimes unjustifiable as onsights and may have changed significantly since the FA anyway. In some cases routes which would make more sense as sport routes were done as trad/headpoint back in the day, for no other reason than sport climbing wasn't the done thing at the time.
 As far as Chee Tor goes I think there is some case for properly bolting the semi sport routes, but I don't believe that anything more radical than this is a good idea.
 I don't think retroing obscure trad routes will reduce the popularity of good trad routes. the reality is that retroing oddball trad routes at sport crags will have no effect on trad routes at trad crags whatsoever.

[Jaspersharpe]

  with all that 100%.

[Johnny Brown]

Perhaps Chee Tor (and other such places) just need a bit of a facelift? Replace the old fixed gear with bolts and clean it up.

Mmm. Work for the new guide could maybe spur this kind of thing on a bit? Not sure whether replacing the odd peg with a bolt won't inevitably end in full-scale retrobolting though.

I don't think you can argue the point, however, that a significant amount of Peak trad limestone is going into a state of disrepair and becoming unclimbable

I look at this from another perspective, and I'm referring as much to sport routes as I am trad. I can't see it from a the point of view of 'disrepair'. If the rock's natural state is to be 'unclimbable' then the short period of its life it has been maintained in a climbable state should be viewed as an experiment and at odds with normality. If the route doesn't prove to be popular enough to be self-maintaining or to motivate regular cleaning then the experiment has failed and it should be left to return to its natural state. If fashions change the records will remain and they can be unearthed.

We had this debate a couple of years back at the international meet on welsh trad - there seemed to be a sense of panic that routes were being 'lost'. Obviously the argument here was for planned cleaning rather than retroing. My feelings were identical  - so what? Let them go. As Grimer said, ultimately either individuals will be arsed to climb or clean stuff, or they won't.

I think a lot of these things get done in the first place (again, I mean sport as much as trad here) cos the main motivation is that of development and new routes. Sadly it seems for many that's the only time motivation will be high enough to do them.

I don't think retroing obscure trad routes will reduce the popularity of good trad routes. the reality is that retroing oddball trad routes at sport crags will have no effect on trad routes at trad crags whatsoever.

I agree with your second statement but not your first. Retro say fifteen of the 'obscure' routes at Chee tor and they will become more popular. The neighbouring trad routes may get the same number of ascents (likely less as folk don't bother taking a rack) but their relative popularity will certainly be diminished, and over time they'll become ignored.

Bottom line - treat unpopularity as an argument for retrobolting and in twenty/ thirty years time all peak limestone will be bolted. This is/was Bill Birch's vision and it looks more likely to me now than when he espoused it to me in '95.