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fingerboard and campusboard cycles (Read 16203 times)

athletikspesifik

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#25 Re: fingerboard and campusboard cycles
March 24, 2008, 01:33:21 am
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Campusing can also describe different exercises on the campus board, so yes climbers are.  I was talking about proper campusing technique, not campusing in general.  You gave 3 examples, I said that the 3rd was the perfect technique but probably the least cross over into performance.

My reference was laddering.  I disagree about the transfer to performance.  Too many climbers release the low hand contact and generate movement with remaining points of contact, instead of milking  everything out of the low hand.

Quote
I'm not sure why you have told us about this.  Is this to do with my research in 'base levels'?


Because it's a problem with a campus move using some of the technical aspects I describe, which is one reason why I think it's valuable to campus and evaluate one's campus technique - sorry for the confusion.  Don't know about your 'base level' research, please share.

Quote
You mean his ability to generate movement from the shoulder.  Who are you writing this for? 

No, I meant the other.  The discourse, at the time, was between you and I - so it was directed toward you.  I can be very insensitive at times, please list topics/vocabulary that are off limits.



[/quote]

Houdini

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#26 Re: fingerboard and campusboard cycles
March 24, 2008, 10:41:25 am
"steer clear of menstruating women before and after training."

Fucking ever


Whoah!  Red rag to a bull!


I can be very insensitive at times, please list topics/vocabulary that are off limits.

J*ws, N*ggaz, Kr*uts, D*gos, C*nts, M*ck R*an . . .   Don't sweat it dude, D*lan's just a guy on the internet!  ;D

robertostallioni

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#27 Re: fingerboard and campusboard cycles
March 24, 2008, 11:34:25 am
Yeah, stick that in with hitching, top o' the list.

account_inactive

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#28 Re: fingerboard and campusboard cycles
March 24, 2008, 11:48:12 am
Yeah man don't have a cow

Quote
My reference was laddering.  I disagree about the transfer to performance.  Too many climbers release the low hand contact and generate movement with remaining points of contact, instead of milking  everything out of the low hand.

I agree with this statement but you seemed to be describing a second generation movement (see Dawes) where by you follow up the initial move to 5 (from 1) with a pull/push movement.  This is the movement that I said was probably not used that much in climbing but would be interesting to test it's relation to high end performers

Quote
No, I meant the other.  The discourse, at the time, was between you and I - so it was directed toward you.  I can be very insensitive at times, please list topics/vocabulary that are off limits.

Well you did mean my translation. Don't worry about being insensitive this is the web we are all cunts at times :oops:


saltbeef

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#29 Re: fingerboard and campusboard cycles
March 24, 2008, 04:49:57 pm
watching climbers who i consider beasts, (huff etc) its noticeable that they milk everything out of the lower hold they're moving off before moving that hand. I have absolutely no way of quantifying this, but its appears obvious that its used for a bit of push rather than relying solely on the pulling hand, I guess this becomes important when you can't do a one armer on that particular size of hold. anyway i'll butt out now.

athletikspesifik

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#30 Re: fingerboard and campusboard cycles
March 24, 2008, 07:07:05 pm

No feathers ruffled, just another poor attempt at clarifying myself.  I'm American, and therefore have very elementary use of grammar, syntax and vocab.

I did a search for Dawes second generation movement/campusing, with no luck - would you please link or reference?

Translation... :kiss1:

I've never been a cunt, in fact, my wife can confirm that I've always been perfect :shag: 

Houdini

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#31 Re: fingerboard and campusboard cycles
March 24, 2008, 10:15:55 pm

I did a search for Dawes second generation movement

Refine search w/ unhitching bra/waistcoat and trousers simultaneously, you might get closer . . .

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#32 Re: fingerboard and campusboard cycles
March 25, 2008, 04:04:12 pm


I've not experimented with the campus board yet but have been impressed with the results i've had from weighted deadhangs on a finger board.  SOme thoughts on recruitment/hypertrophy:

Why should recruitment training only occur in short phases?  I agree that the greatest gains are seen in the first couple of weeks, but presumably this is because you are starting from a level of relatively low recruitment.  After two or three weeks if you increase the load rather than the length of the hang wouldn't you continue to push recruitment rather than hypertropy?

Nibile, you mentioned that the Guru recommended only finger boarding several times a week for two weeks before returning to bouldering.  if you;re training recruitment three days a week you'll have to dramatically cut down the amount of bouldering you do (i guess, i would anyway!).  Perhaps this is why the Guru recommends recruitment training in such a short phase, to prevent loss of fluid movement, time on a diverse range of holds etc?

Would it not be better to train recruitment in a lower volume per week but more steadily over several weeks/months.  That way you should keep your recruitment nudging upwards without losing time on the wall?  From reading Dave MacLeod's articles i think this is the approach he takes.

Speculating now, if you make gains in recruitment over the course of a few weeks then i would have thought that they can be lost just as quickly.  By maintaining a level for a longer period it would seem more likely to become a permenant gain.


Finally, are static contractions effective at promoting hypertrophy?  I remember reading (Bompa's Periodization i think) that there was little evidence to support this.  Concentric contractions do clearly bring hypertrophy in other sports, and I know some people have used heavy finger curls for this purpose, but of course this type of movement has little specifically for climbing.  It's never occurred to me that strong boulderers have noticeably large fore arms, certainly not out of proportion with the rest of their build.  If anything trad climbers and alpinists more so, though I guess this is related to capilliarisation rather than muscle fibre gain.

please set me straight if any of the above is B.S.



 

athletikspesifik

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#33 Re: fingerboard and campusboard cycles
March 25, 2008, 04:12:13 pm
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Refine search w/ unhitching bra/waistcoat and trousers simultaneously, you might get closer . . .

On principle, I don't undress for men.  I'm not clear on this 'waistcoat' business...isn't that restrictive on the genitals?  Over here, we just wear a belt.

If anyone is interested in SSC (stretch shortening cycle) and how it applies to campusing and its transfer to the rock, I would be willing to elaborate.

Dylan, please reveal research on 'base levels' and where I can find Dawes' work.

Thx

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#34 Re: fingerboard and campusboard cycles
March 25, 2008, 04:21:00 pm
where I can find Dawes' work.


Spattered around the gritstone crags of the Peak District and other crags throughout the UK  :P ::).

athletikspesifik

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#35 Re: fingerboard and campusboard cycles
March 25, 2008, 04:29:08 pm
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Why should recruitment training only occur in short phases?  I agree that the greatest gains are seen in the first couple of weeks, but presumably this is because you are starting from a level of relatively low recruitment.  After two or three weeks if you increase the load rather than the length of the hang wouldn't you continue to push recruitment rather than hypertropy?

Nibile, you mentioned that the Guru recommended only finger boarding several times a week for two weeks before returning to bouldering.  if you;re training recruitment three days a week you'll have to dramatically cut down the amount of bouldering you do (i guess, i would anyway!).  Perhaps this is why the Guru recommends recruitment training in such a short phase, to prevent loss of fluid movement, time on a diverse range of holds etc?

Would it not be better to train recruitment in a lower volume per week but more steadily over several weeks/months.  That way you should keep your recruitment nudging upwards without losing time on the wall?  From reading Dave MacLeod's articles i think this is the approach he takes.

Speculating now, if you make gains in recruitment over the course of a few weeks then i would have thought that they can be lost just as quickly.  By maintaining a level for a longer period it would seem more likely to become a permenant gain.


Finally, are static contractions effective at promoting hypertrophy?  I remember reading (Bompa's Periodization i think) that there was little evidence to support this.  Concentric contractions do clearly bring hypertrophy in other sports, and I know some people have used heavy finger curls for this purpose, but of course this type of movement has little specifically for climbing.  It's never occurred to me that strong boulderers have noticeably large fore arms, certainly not out of proportion with the rest of their build.  If anything trad climbers and alpinists more so, though I guess this is related to capilliarisation rather than muscle fibre gain.

please set me straight if any of the above is B.S.

I personally agree with what you've said.  Tensile strength is a physiological adaptation not mentioned, research indicates that this improves over time/volume.  Of course, genetics plays a big part, but, theoretically one should be able to increase the strength values of our 'climbing-specific kinetic chain' soft tissue with training.  In my opinion and experience consistent, low volume fingerboarding is a good approach.

On an anecdotal note, I have probably pushed too hard/fast on 1 finger hangs as I am currently having a difficult time recovering from an index finger pulley aggravation.  I should have backed off the intensity for a longer period and taped closer to the distal part of PIP.

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#36 Re: fingerboard and campusboard cycles
March 25, 2008, 04:47:47 pm
Don't search too far for Dawes articles on training, you won't find any.   There's a bit of fascitiousness going on here w/ you.  He's a climber particularly good at jumping through his pituitary issues and eating Chinese food.

Interesting, for your all your sport science knowledge, you iz fukt . . .     ;)

athletikspesifik

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#37 Re: fingerboard and campusboard cycles
March 25, 2008, 04:51:38 pm
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Interesting, for your all your sport science knowledge, you iz fukt . . .     ;)

More detail plz

Houdini

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#38 Re: fingerboard and campusboard cycles
March 25, 2008, 04:58:45 pm
I have probably pushed too hard/fast on 1 finger hangs as I am currently having a difficult time recovering from an index finger pulley aggravation.

He he!

athletikspesifik

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#39 Re: fingerboard and campusboard cycles
March 25, 2008, 05:37:50 pm
I perceive it as a behavioral problem more than a knowledge issue.  The mind wants to achieve what the body can't conceive.

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#40 Re: fingerboard and campusboard cycles
March 25, 2008, 07:43:38 pm

Finally, are static contractions effective at promoting hypertrophy?  I remember reading (Bompa's Periodization i think) that there was little evidence to support this.  Concentric contractions do clearly bring hypertrophy in other sports, and I know some people have used heavy finger curls for this purpose, but of course this type of movement has little specifically for climbing.  It's never occurred to me that strong boulderers have noticeably large fore arms, certainly not out of proportion with the rest of their build.  If anything trad climbers and alpinists more so, though I guess this is related to capilliarisation rather than muscle fibre gain.

 

There is now plenty of evidence that isometric contractions, when done at the correct intensity and duration, can be very effective at promoting hypertrophy.
I would say that most serious boulderers have very noticeably hypertrophied  forearms (Katz, Nicole, etc).
The hypertrophy you observe in route climbers is unlikely to be down to increased capillarisation, but if you read the links I posted that link fatigue to hypertrophy then it would follow that they would have hypertrophied forearms through the endurance work they do.
Some interesting (for me anyway) speculation on the link between hypertrophy and endurance in upper body sports here:
http://home.hia.no/~stephens/str&end.htm

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#41 Re: fingerboard and campusboard cycles
March 25, 2008, 08:16:25 pm
Powerball = hypertrophy.  I know.

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#42 Re: fingerboard and campusboard cycles
March 27, 2008, 12:49:27 pm


I've not experimented with the campus board yet but have been impressed with the results i've had from weighted deadhangs on a finger board.  SOme thoughts on recruitment/hypertrophy:

Why should recruitment training only occur in short phases?  I agree that the greatest gains are seen in the first couple of weeks, but presumably this is because you are starting from a level of relatively low recruitment.  After two or three weeks if you increase the load rather than the length of the hang wouldn't you continue to push recruitment rather than hypertropy?

Nibile, you mentioned that the Guru recommended only finger boarding several times a week for two weeks before returning to bouldering.  if you;re training recruitment three days a week you'll have to dramatically cut down the amount of bouldering you do (i guess, i would anyway!).  Perhaps this is why the Guru recommends recruitment training in such a short phase, to prevent loss of fluid movement, time on a diverse range of holds etc?

Would it not be better to train recruitment in a lower volume per week but more steadily over several weeks/months.  That way you should keep your recruitment nudging upwards without losing time on the wall?  From reading Dave MacLeod's articles i think this is the approach he takes.

Speculating now, if you make gains in recruitment over the course of a few weeks then i would have thought that they can be lost just as quickly.  By maintaining a level for a longer period it would seem more likely to become a permenant gain.


Finally, are static contractions effective at promoting hypertrophy?  I remember reading (Bompa's Periodization i think) that there was little evidence to support this.  Concentric contractions do clearly bring hypertrophy in other sports, and I know some people have used heavy finger curls for this purpose, but of course this type of movement has little specifically for climbing.  It's never occurred to me that strong boulderers have noticeably large fore arms, certainly not out of proportion with the rest of their build.  If anything trad climbers and alpinists more so, though I guess this is related to capilliarisation rather than muscle fibre gain.

please set me straight if any of the above is B.S.
 

Firstly, thankyou all for your great contribute to this discussion. very impressive competence.
static contractions are not the best way to promoting hypertrophy, but they do, much less than concentric of course. I think that every climber's forearms are "bigger" than in untrained people. but this is not our problem.

my idea was very specific to that guy (see first nibile's post), in fact, it is very difficult to elaborate general "rules". so, in this specif case, the problem to solve is to plan a period of some weeks to increase finger strenght. fingerboard is a very useless tool and we have to take it in consideration. but also indoor boulder wall can help in order to work on finger strength with little holds (reproducing climbing movement etc..). so the idea is very simple. for example he could do 2 weeks working mainly on fingerboard (still he have great gains), then for other weeks work prevalently (or totally) on the wall. a short sequence of moves can be a big stimulus too.. in the same direction. so we have no loss of strength (and don't forget that our goal is not the fingerboard performance, but the wall, I mean the climbing performance)

" Would it not be better to train recruitment in a lower volume per week but more steadily over several weeks/months.  That way you should keep your recruitment nudging upwards without losing time on the wall? "
I answer, in this specific case probably it's better do some close "shocking sessions".. probably..

I agree that finger strength training should be done in very intense and short session. and it should be for strength training in general.

loss of fluid movement? it depends on the level of climbing.. anyway climbing is the base.

PERIODIZATION is a very very interesting "chapter".. my first and best inspiration was Gilles Cometti (10 years ago), and when I worked hard on fingerboard I remember huge improvements.. now i think, obviously, that the Authors are useful to read, but you have to elaborate your personal phylosophy, and the right strategy for everyone you train... and it's a matter of years. I think you can reach the same goal in many many ways.

thank you.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2008, 12:56:16 pm by guru »

a dense loner

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#43 Re: fingerboard and campusboard cycles
March 28, 2008, 06:28:56 pm
wise words from the guru. there are many cats and many ways to skin them

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#44 Re: fingerboard and campusboard cycles
March 28, 2008, 06:48:35 pm
wise words from the guru. there are many cats and many ways to skin them

but ultimately they're all black in the night.

a dense loner

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#45 Re: fingerboard and campusboard cycles
March 28, 2008, 06:56:07 pm
if a cat gets skinned in an empty forest does it scream?

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#46 Re: fingerboard and campusboard cycles
March 28, 2008, 07:05:02 pm
how can a cat get skinned in an empty forest?

 

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