[Doylo]

Being a long problem enthusiast i was quite interested to hear about the latest link up in North Wales:

http://www.northwalesbouldering.com/newsitem.asp?nsid=333

Having tried this line myself and after seeing some good, strong climbers on it i was a bit bewildered when the consensus from the crag that day emerged as French 7c for this monster. I thought a V7 into a V6 into a V8 (albeit with a few jugs inbetween) would clock in at about V9/V10, 7c/7c+, not French 7c! I haven't climbed the line so maybe i should listen to the 3 ascentionists and shut up! But then again, maybe they're underestimating there own strength/ ability. One thing i can say is i know the likes of Ding Dong and Jim Mccormack don't fail on French 7c very often. Anyway its a cracking traverse whatever so props to Rob Lamey.
 
What do you all think? Should these 30 move+ problems even be given bouldering grades or would French grades give a more accurate appraisal?

[Bonjoy]

I've climbed loads of French 7c routes. Most have one V6 crux section at most. Even the short bouldery ones rarely push V7. V6 into V7 into V8 does not make French 7c, even if you step off and go for a brew between each section.

[Doylo]

you can see most of the traverse in this pic:



and this vid shows sorle climbing it minus the first V7 section:

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[Doylo]

I've climbed loads of French 7c routes. Most have one V6 crux section at most. Even the short bouldery ones rarely push V7. V6 into V7 into V8 does not make French 7c, even if you step off and go for a brew between each section.

Yeah me too Jon, i don't get it!

[Bonjoy]

Example - Weedkiller Traverse 7a+/V7. Most sport climbers (who know a thing or two about sport grades) consider it solid French 7c+, it used to be referred to as 'the 8a traverse' when I started climbing at the tor infact.
Either the boulder prob sections are overgraded or that French grade is way off.

[Doylo]

Well the V7 start is solid, the bit in the middle is prob a soft V6, the end (Happy New Year Start) could potentially be V7 but its basically a harder version of Karaoke Massacre which everyone seems to think is a solid V7 (except sorle- too strong) so prob is V8?

[Doylo]

Example - Weedkiller Traverse 7a+/V7. Most sport climbers (who know a thing or two about sport grades) consider it solid French 7c+, it used to be referred to as 'the 8a traverse' when I started climbing at the tor infact.
Either the boulder prob sections are overgraded or that French grade is way off.

good example, this traverse is in another league of difficulty to weedkiller!

[Bonjoy]

 From an outsiders perspective it looks like the current Welsh scene is rife with faux-modest undergraders.

[Doylo]

From an outsiders perspective it looks like the current Welsh scene is rife with faux-modest undergraders.

[meatball]

I climbed a link of three problems at woodwell last year. Closer (V6) into crucifix kiss (V7 dubious in my opinion ) into the footless marathon ( V6/7 ). I thought about it for a while and thought about V8. After speakin with a friend he agreed but could be tough one. Not sure how others would perceive this? 

[Stu Littlefair]

From an outsiders perspective it looks like the current Welsh scene is rife with faux-modest undergraders.

Perhaps so, but this is taking it to ludicrous levels. Consider Power Ranger at Malham which could be considered a long V4 into a V8; it's probably 8b+.

Linkups in general are difficult to judge without knowing the details of the problems. For example, it's a lot easier to link a 3 move V8 into a long V7 than the other way around... Also, how good are the rests?
From the vids, and depending on the quality of the rests on this linkup I'd have thought between 8a and 8b+ for this.

There is a tendency to underestimate the equivalent french grade of long problems. I think this is because the difficulty of working things on a rope tends to make things feel harder, relatively speaking. We covered similar ground in the thread following my ascent of make it funky.

[Doylo]

There's basically two rests, a good one after the first v7 and a reasonable one (well good enough to chalk up) after the second section. These are by no means no hands rests though (unless your names mcclure).

[Pantontino]

I tracked Rob down and discussed the grade issue and he said that he thought it was slightly harder than Left Wall Traverse (now rated 7b or F7c+ish), but that the height and position of the moves did add a degree of extra spice.

I still think this is a conservative assessment - Ding Dong failed to do this twice on Saturday. That boy doesn't even notice this sort of grade, especially not on his home territory.

Some things have actually come down in grade since their first ascents. This is normal, especially on a venue like Breck Road where the rock was quite dirty in its untouched state, but I don't want to go into the next guidebook with a load of sandbags (like happened last time). This obsession with grade crushing has to stop somewhere.

Doylo has produced a 7 + 8 list for the limestone, which I'll put on line as soon as I've made it look pretty and added in the FA dates. Hopefully that will add a little comparative context for any new lines.

[Doylo]

its miles, miles harder than left wall, i'm pulling my hair out

[Jim]

When it comes to grading, Pete should be ignored

[Doylo]

I tracked Rob down and discussed the grade issue and he said that he thought it was slightly harder than Left Wall Traverse (now rated 7b or F7c+ish), but that the height and position of the moves did add a degree of extra spice.

I still think this is a conservative assessment - Ding Dong failed to do this twice on Saturday. That boy doesn't even notice this sort of grade, especially not on his home territory.

Some things have actually come down in grade since their first ascents. This is normal, especially on a venue like Breck Road where the rock was quite dirty in its untouched state, but I don't want to go into the next guidebook with a load of sandbags (like happened last time). This obsession with grade crushing has to stop somewhere.

Bear in mind that Ding Dong did Halfway house V12/8a+ that day for the first time since he broke his wrist so its not like he's climbing rubbish.
Simon i saw you piss Left wall the other day (i know you've been doing it for years etc..). Do you think you could even climb this thing in two halves cos i know i can't!

[Pantontino]

I'm convinced BRL is at least 7c. Sure, it is broken by two rests, but the second (and more important) one is more of a chalking up point; you're not going to be getting much back hanging off those holds. The comparisons to LWT don't make sense to me, but then again I have that so wired I'm probably not the best to ask.

In the end a consensus grade is built on many, many opinions. Pete, Sorle and Rob are fully entitled to think what they think, but my guess is that as others do/try the link the grade will get nudged back up to a sensible level.

[Doylo]

but my guess is that as others do/try the link the grade will get nudged back up to a sensible level.

yeah hopefully before the next guide comes out and we're all made a laughing stock 

[Paz]

Just doing the math and not having been (or at least not having done anything other than the really easy traverse on the left wall of some cave, if I even did that) I agree with Bonjoy and Stu, it's circa 8a+, plus or minus one (plus).  However if it's a 30 move link up, that's still an average of 10 moves each for the V6, 7 and 8 sections, so these in themselves are still pretty long problems - I've done routes with few than 10 hand moves (including most of my own), maybe the whole thing is only 8a or even 7c+, which would tie in with the LWT comparison.  I'd say (as I always do) just give the lot sport grades, or font traverse grades, you're pumped aren't you?

[Doylo]

just had a thought, doesn't plumbline traverse get 7b+ or so. Say no more.

[moose]

Doesn't the Lakesbloc guide for Woodwell give Tom's Traverse Reverse (font7a/V6) an equivalent sport grade of F7b+?  This has always seemed a fairly reasonable callibration to me (though perhaps slightly generous) - I can generally onsight sport F7aish so being able to do a short and close to the ground F7b+ on rock that suits me seems feasible.  The only other sport/boulder comparison I have seen is for the mid-level traverse on Ilkey's Calf which used to be described as a V8/9 (ft7b+) and approx. equivalent to sport F8a. 

So, from those two disparate and highly dubious "facts" I would estimate a sport grade of F7c/+ to be roughly equivalent to a long, "sport-like" V8?  Presumably either the graders of that Welsh link-up find bouldering much harder than routes (do they use ultradense quickdraws when redpointing...perhaps fashioned from osmium?) OR the link somehow manages to miss out the hardest moves of its component problems (is pulling-on the crux)?!

[Kingy]

Left Wall Traverse (now rated 7b or F7c+ish

What does Left Wall High get in route grades? 8a+? Its certainly more like a route than a bloc.

I guess Staminaband is an obvious comparitor in this debate - supposedly 8b+ route grade but as its a traverse and no upward movement is required, its difficult to assess. The individual boulder probs would be around V8 + V7 into start of Powerband and a reasonable shake and then a V9 (Powerband) to finish....or if you prefer, two V9's with a shake inbetween.

[Doylo]

Left Wall Traverse (now rated 7b or F7c+ish

What does Left Wall High get in route grades? 8a+? Its certainly more like a route than a bloc.

I guess Staminaband is an obvious comparitor in this debate - supposedly 8b+ route grade but as its a traverse and no upward movement is required, its difficult to assess. The individual boulder probs would be around V8 + V7 into start of Powerband and a reasonable shake and then a V9 (Powerband) to finish....or if you prefer, two V9's with a shake inbetween.

Left wall high is a soft V9, about 8a/+  routes grade. Still easier than this latest linkup in my opinion. I've always viewed staminaband as v8+ to get to powerband and then a V9 (Powerband).

[superfurrymonkey]

Sorles link is at least V8+ and harder again if you are short, I found a mathematical equation for link ups that goes like this V7+V8=15 add 4 then divide by 2 which gives a V9/10 grade, Iv`e tried this equation with loads of other link ups and It`s pretty accurate to within half a grade. So there you go maths say`s V9/10 and maths don`t lie

[superfurrymonkey]

Some examples for you.
Lou Ferrino into Halfway House = best part of V10 into 12 so 10+12+4=26 divided by 2 = V13 Directors Cut.
Leftwall into start of Rockatrocity is V11+RAV9+4=24/2=V12   Pilgrim.

[webbo]

Sorles link is at least V8+ and harder again if you are short, I found a mathematical equation for link ups that goes like this V7+V8=15 add 4 then divide by 2 which gives a V9/10 grade, Iv`e tried this equation with loads of other link ups and It`s pretty accurate to within half a grade. So there you go maths say`s V9/10 and maths don`t lie

i'm with this all the way.

when i workout some of my links v6 into v1 into v1 into v6=14+4 divided by 2 =9.i never realised i was that good.

[Jaspersharpe]

But that's four sections so divide by 4 and you get 4.5........er.......

[superfurrymonkey]

Weird thing is if you do a V6 into a V1 you lose half a grade

[superfurrymonkey]

Although I did so it was accurate to within half a grade so that`s ok then

[GCW]

Although I did so it was accurate to within half a grade so that`s ok then

So how about a V10 into a V1? 

[superfurrymonkey]

Although I did so it was accurate to within half a grade so that`s ok then

So how about a V10 into a V1? 

bugger!

[superfurrymonkey]

Ok it wont work with grades under V6 I think.

[GCW]

Ok it wont work with grades under V6 I think.

V13 into V6= V11.5 

I see your point, and it's not often you get a hard problem going into an easy problem.
I'd wonder how your system would work for something like the Craig Y Longridge Traverse.   

[Houdini]

The lowest V-grade of the two must be minimum 2 under the higher V-grade for the total to be increased.  eg:

V12 + V11 = V13/14
V12 + V10 = V13
V12 + V9  = V12

Well, that's my understanding of the algebra.

[Paz]

It's not going to be linear, come on.  We need to define the grade as the integral of some function f along the sequence (or motion/ trajectory). Now f has to be positive or zero becuase you can't add on more moves to a problem and make it easier.  f basically has the dimensions of V grade per metre, but it has some sort of history dependence as you know how hard what you've done so far is.  I propose that two V4s one after other other with a cup of tea in the middle are, wait for it :V4.  But this will obviously cause less climbing arguments using the english technical system, which is just like some sort of infinity norm - the maximum of what you've done.  

[GCW]

The lowest V-grade of the two must be a maximum of 2 under the higher V-grade for the total to be increased.  eg:

V12 + V11 = V13/14
V12 + V10 = V13
V12 + V9  = V12

You are quite right, which is why it won't work for
1.  Grades below V6
2.  Grades where V_a - V_b > +/-2
3.  Links of more than 2 problems- although I suppose you could add 2x number of linked problems divided by number of linked problems:

eg  V6 + V7 + V8->  [6+7+8+(2x3)]/3= 27/3 = V9

or are we going a bit silly here?

[Johnny Brown]

No, keep at it. Could be on the verge of a major break through to put an end to all arguments. And at last an advantage to V grades has been found!

[Paz]

Yeah.  Two may not be the right number to subtract but you're just trying to say something like if you're a V12 climber then V10 is a rest to you.

[Houdini]

eg  V6 + V7 + V8->  [6+7+8+(2x3)]/3= 27/3 = V9 or are we going a bit silly here?

Certainly are, everyone knows V6 + 7 + 8 = V8+ 

[superfurrymonkey]

3.  Links of more than 2 problems- although I suppose you could add 2x number of linked problems divided by number of linked problems:

eg  V6 + V7 + V8->  [6+7+8+(2x3)]/3= 27/3 = V9

or are we going a bit silly here?

Where there`s more than two problems work out the value for the first two then do the same for the third.
 V11+V9+4=24/2=V12 say Pilgrim then that into Clyde is V12+V11+4=27/2=V13.5 or perhaps V14 

[superfurrymonkey]

eg  V6 + V7 + V8->  [6+7+8+(2x3)]/3= 27/3 = V9 or are we going a bit silly here?

Certainly are, everyone knows V6 + 7 + 8 = V8+ 

I get V10 my way

[Kingy]

Left wall high is a soft V9, about 8a/+  routes grade. Still easier than this latest linkup in my opinion. I've always viewed staminaband as v8+ to get to powerband and then a V9 (Powerband).

Interesting stuff. Yes i guess SB is much easier than Powerband if you think about it, compared to that orrible last move. Once you've got SB wired, the very start must be V8 as its well tricky (right heel seems to work) but the undercuts section is only V6 IMO if you hit on a good sequence. I don't believe people like John Welford who said SB is the living end and that he's only ever managed to do the start 4 times!!

Tried Left wall recently and there is nothing as hard as Powerband on there and the footholds are quite big in places but its a bit of a pumper...

[Doylo]

I don't believe people like John Welford who said SB is the living end and that he's only ever managed to do the start 4 times!!

yeah i don't buy that either, its not that hard. The hard thing about Staminaband is that friggin pocket drop down right at the end!

[Kingy]

yeah i don't buy that either, its not that hard. The hard thing about Staminaband is that friggin pocket drop down right at the end!

Agreed, I just copy Spoony with the outside left edge on a little spike before reaching down into the pocket but its a bit of a grunt!

[Jaspersharpe]

I always found the hard bit on the link on Staminaband was the move in the middle of Powerband holding the resin edge and reaching down to the pocket. Never fell off if I got past that. Think that's because it was the endurance crux for me and there's a rest before the last move. I've never been fit.

No, keep at it. Could be on the verge of a major break through to put an end to all arguments. And at last an advantage to V grades has been found!

Just what I was thinking reading this thread.

Perhaps V grades should only be used for long problems and link ups. That way you'd have a system solely for these type of things for which neither route grades nor font grades work. Plus you'd have an end to the argument as to which system to use for "normal" problems. 

[Bonjoy]

I always found the hard bit on the link on Staminaband was the move in the middle of Powerband holding the resin edge and reaching down to the pocket. Never fell off if I got past that. Think that's because it was the endurance crux for me and there's a rest before the last move. I've never been fit.

If this was quite a few years back the middle of Powerband WAS the crux of Stamband. The footholds are a lot bigger now and this bit is pretty easy. Anyone who doubts this should go check the crappy little polished holds next to the big positive ones.

[Jaspersharpe]

Yeah I'm talking 15 years ago. Have only been back once since and I wasn't strong enough to even notice the footholds had changed. When did that happen then and how?

[Houdini]

Well I've been using H-grades for some time now and they fit everything perfectly . . .   For me.   

[Ru]

Yeah I'm talking 15 years ago. Have only been back once since and I wasn't strong enough to even notice the footholds had changed. When did that happen then and how?

Nothing sinister, bits have just fallen off.

[Kingy]

When did that happen then and how?

Best talk to Andy Harris about this. A big left foothold mysteriously appeared on the drop down to the pocket taking a lot of body tension out of the move. Also the low foothold used for reaching the resin pinch from the undercut slot has somehow crumbled away and got bigger.

[superfurrymonkey]

Anyway back to the grades at breck rd! Ioan Doyle came close to sending Sorle`s link today reckoning it felt V9 and compared it in difficulty to Jerrie`s roof and Full roadside.

[Doylo]

Anyway back to the grades at breck rd! Ioan Doyle came close to sending Sorle`s link today reckoning it felt V9 and compared it in difficulty to Jerrie`s roof and Full roadside.

You see, the Doyle's speak sense! So that would make the full link up hard V9 or V10.

[superfurrymonkey]

I don`t understand how Pete Robins graded Happy New Year start V8 and then claimed that the full traverse was easier than LWT.     Happy New Year start on it`s own feels harder than LWT.  These grades are winding me up. 

[Doylo]

I don`t understand how Pete Robins graded Happy New Year start V8 and then claimed that the full traverse was easier than LWT.     Happy New Year start on it`s own feels harder than LWT.  These grades are winding me up. 

To be fair to Pete he did HNYS with the old texas beta originally, then he used the right heal for the full link up. Still undergraded though!

[superfurrymonkey]

Ahh but the guys on Saturday reckoned TKM was still V8 even with the heel hook! and to be honest thinking about it I`d have to agree, It`s certainly harder than organ grinder for instance. Anyway brilliant problems they are whatever the grade!

[Doylo]

Ahh but the guys on Saturday reckoned TKM was still V8 even with the heel hook! and to be honest thinking about it I`d have to agree, It`s certainly harder than organ grinder for instance. Anyway brilliant problems they are whatever the grade!

Yeah i find TKM harder than Swing of Fire by a long shot.

[dave]

I don't believe people like John Welford who said SB is the living end and that he's only ever managed to do the start 4 times!!

yeah i don't buy that either, its not that hard. The hard thing about Staminaband is that friggin pocket drop down right at the end!

I always think of powerband as being a 7b traverse (to the jug) into a 1-move 7b at the end, if you think about it. I find the start section of staminaband harder than either of the above 2 sections on their own by a long shot, but granted its very condition dependant, compared to powerband which only has to be 90% dry to be fine. Conditioney 7b+ into a 7b into a 7b? how does this add up with the MATH? over to you Paz, integrate this.

[superfurrymonkey]

I don't believe people like John Welford who said SB is the living end and that he's only ever managed to do the start 4 times!!

yeah i don't buy that either, its not that hard. The hard thing about Staminaband is that friggin pocket drop down right at the end!

I always think of powerband as being a 7b traverse (to the jug) into a 1-move 7b at the end, if you think about it. I find the start section of staminaband harder than either of the above 2 sections on their own by a long shot, but granted its very condition dependant, compared to powerband which only has to be 90% dry to be fine. Conditioney 7b+ into a 7b into a 7b? how does this add up with the MATH? over to you Paz, integrate this.

V11/12.

[Paz]

MATH? over to you Paz, integrate this.

7c+, or 7c if you've done it ;-).