[Jaspersharpe]

Went training at The Works on Wednesday and have managed to fuck up my finger somewhat. Felt heavy and weak when warming up but pressed on anyway and tried my usual three problems on the board which I use to see how strong I feel. The answer was not very and it took me two goes to do the second of them which basically never happens. This was when my finger started hurting here..........



.....I often get the odd tweak when I'm warming up so I shrugged it off at first and thought that despite the fact that I was going to have a shit session I may as well carry on as it's all good training. However, the niggle didn't go away and after three goes at the third problem I decided I was only making it worse and jacked it in.

It was only when I got home and the pain was still there that I realised I'd actually done something to it that wasn't going to go away in a few hours and sure enough it's still there.

Basically it feels fine when I'm not moving it and pulling on it open handed is also no problem. If I press the side it hurts but only in a really localised area (where marked above) and only if I press that exact area. If I bend it it's ok until I reach the point where I'm sort of crimping or making a claw and then the pain starts but again in a very localised place and it's the same if I start crimping against something.

So what the fuck have I done? I know the answer is see a physio and I will but I'm just wondering what I should / shouldn't do before then as I don't want to make it any worse or miss out on making it better. I'd also like to know the likely time frame of getting it better (I usually heal really quickly) so I can not get too depressed (hopefully).

Thanks in advance for any ideas. 

[Gus]

I'm not sure what you've done but whenever I have finger tweaks/ injuries I've always done the hot/ cold treatment which seems to have a really good effect, something about increasing blood flow to the injured area etc.

Basically I do ten minutes in hot water (literally as hot as you can stand, topping it up with water from a boiled kettle as soon as you get used to the heat), and then ten minutes in ice water, again as cold as you can stand, topping up with ice cubes as you get used to the cold.

Hopefully this might help out as a start to get the recovery process off to a good start before you can get it properly seen to.

Maybe have a chat with the physio cats down the works on Thurs nights??

All the best for a quick recovery!
Gus

[Bonjoy]

Sounds like ligument damage to me

[Plattsy]

Sounds similar to this.

http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,8271.0.html

[fatdoc]

Sounds like ligument damage to me

yep.

twisting type injury.

cold / hot / gentle massage..... off about 10 days hopefully

[Houdini]

Si si, ligament damage,

Got around mine by cross-taping very carefully w/ extremely thin strips (why people waste tape by using fat wide strips that stretch and don't get right down on it is beyond me) plus taping to the middle finger.  

Yep as Doc says - twisting - possibly pinching hard on fat pinches on steep terrain especially if the holds are orientated too vertically.

[Jaspersharpe]

Nice one people. Many many many thanks. 

10ish days off is cool as I've had nearly two already and am on a non climbing trip to Edinburgh for the next three. Not long enough to get too weak if it sorts itself out in a week or so.

Pretty sure I know how I did it now too which is nice for the logical accountant part of my brain. Pulling too hard (in a twisty motion) to try to compensate for the fact that I was climbing badly and felt weak.

I hate tape so will try to let it get totally better with rest etc before climbing again. Am I right in thinking ligaments = hot/cold is good, tendons = hot/cold is bad then? 

[a dense loner]

did this same thing twice last year. it was one of the main reasons i started open-handing stuff and training on pockets, i crimped everything before. i could open hand etc fine but not crimp. only started back on nice dirty crimps around xmas, my crimping took a long while to sort itself out, ie 4-6 months. hope it's not as bad as mine was, or you'll just have to get palm rashes off volumes

[Jaspersharpe]

Oh God. I fucking hope it's not that bad. If I can't crimp I'm screwed. 

[Houdini]

Don't worry Jasper, you'll be fine.

I hurt the ligaments of my left swearing finger badly last year.  I was successful in my desire to bulk up a little for the steeper stuff but forgot to be careful w/ the extra 6KG I was lumping around (I was also trying to open hand everything).  Something had to go and the ligaments became hugely swollen at that joint w/ fierce torsion pain.  Kills doesn't it?

I know you hate it but very careful cross-taping w/ thin strips should help and at least keep you moving.

(Take 15 minutes to get it 100% perfect, practice better cross-taping: it's difficult to get it just right, and don't use cheap thin tape - use expensive real hospital strappal)

[moose]

I know you hate it but very careful cross-taping w/ thin strips should help and at least keep you moving.

(Take 15 minutes to get it 100% perfect, practice better cross-taping: it's difficult to get it just right, and don't use cheap thin tape - use expensive real hospital strappal)

My most recent copy of Climbing magazine (US) mentions "H taping" as bossest bandaging method around - supposedly there's even some science to back it up.  I vaguelly recall that it involved taking a 10 cm long double-width piece of tape and slitting it longitudinally from either end - leaving a short bridge (~1cm) in the middle.  The bridge is put against the underside of the knuckle and the joint wrapped either side using the "arms" of the H.  I'll try to did up an electronic version. 

[slackline]

My most recent copy of Climbing magazine (US) mentions "H taping" as bossest bandaging method around - supposedly there's even some science to back it up.  I vaguelly recall that it involved taking a 10 cm long double-width piece of tape and slitting it longitudinally from either end - leaving a short bridge (~1cm) in the middle.  The bridge is put against the underside of the knuckle and the joint wrapped either side using the "arms" of the H.  I'll try to did up an electronic version. 

H-taping appears to be based on SCIENCE...

" J Appl Biomech. 2007 Feb;23(1):52-62.Links
    Impact of taping after finger flexor tendon pulley ruptures in rock climbers.
    Schoffl I, Einwag F, Strecker W, Hennig F, Schoffl V.

    Institute of Medical Physics, University of Erlangen, Nuremberg, Germany.

    Flexor tendon pulley ruptures are the most common injury in rock climbers. Therapeutic standards usually include a prolonged use of taping applied as a replacement for the lost pulley in a circular fashion at the base of the proximal phalanx. Our biomechanical considerations, however, suggest a new taping method, the H-tape. The purpose of the study is to evaluate whether this new taping method can effectively change the course of the flexor tendon and therefore reduce the tendon-bone distance. In order to compare the effects of different taping methods described in the literature with the newly developed taping method, we performed standardized ultrasound examinations of 8 subjects with singular A2 pulley rupture and multiple pulley ruptures of A2 and A3 pulleys and determined the respective tendon-bone distance for the different taping methods, versus without tape at a preset position on the proximal phalanx. In a second approach, we evaluated the effect of the new taping method on the strength of the injured finger using a force platform on 12 subjects with different pulley ruptures with injuries older than 1 year. The new taping method decreased the tendon-bone distance in the injured finger significantly by 16%, whereas the other taping methods did not. The strength development was significantly better with the new tape for the crimp grip position (+13%), but there was no significant improvement for the hanging position. We recommend taping with the newly presented taping technique after pulley rupture."

Unfortunately a load of the sports specific journals aren't accessible from either Sheffield or Manchester University (damn cheap-skates!).

[Jaspersharpe]

Interesting although that's all about tendon ruptures which (fortunately) isn't what I've done. Is H taping going to be more effective than Houdini's thin cross taping with ligament damage? 

If it comes to it that I need to tape it that is. It's actually feeling a lot better already and I'm hoping that the rest, massage, ice etc will do the job and I wont end up having to fuck about with the demon Strappal. Thanks again for all the info.

[moose]

Couldn't dig up a link to H-taping with pictures but a fuller description of the method is:

- Cut a 10 cm long length of double-width tape (i.e. ~1.5cm).
- Slit the tape longitudinally from either end, towards the centre, leaving a 1cm bridge  in the middle.
- Place the bridge against the underside of the joint and tightly wrap the lower strip around the finger below the joint (i.e. wrapping each end of the lower "arm" of the H around the joint in turn).
- Bend the finger and wrap the top strip around the finger above the joint.

I've been the method myself to nurse a tweaked joint and it seems to work well enough - stopped my abused digits from getting any worse despite my stupidity.  Very neat too - uses relatively little tape and doesn't feel as obstructive as my normal figure-8 method.  The only problem is that you need scissors to do it.

An extra supposedly cited by the original journal is that the method is also thought likely to reduce flexor tendonitis - though "the study bases this solely on logical deduction".

[Jaspersharpe]

Right I had 13 days rest. Treated it properly etc. Trained on Wednesday, took it easy and it felt ok until I did one slightly harder, more crimpy thing and it hurt a little. Only did an hour and a half and apart from that one problem I stuck to larger holds, open handed stuff etc. But now it feels quite sore again. Not as bad as before but not right. 

So I've come to the conclusion that I need tape. I'm inclined to go with Houdini on the thin strips cross taping thing as it's proven to work for this type of injury whereas the H taping appears to be recommended for more serious tendon damage.

Is this sensible? Apologies for being a dunce with this but I've always been incredibly lucky with (a lack of) finger injuries so have no experience of anything but very minor problems.

I'm going to Font end of next month so I really could do without A - too much any more time off and B - making this any worse than it already is.

Advice much appreciated as per. 

[Houdini]

When I hurt my ligament I taped every time and didn't stop taping it till it stopped hurting; and that includes twisting it by hand when I wasn't climbing.

[Jaspersharpe]

Yeah I've tried to avoid it but fuck it. If it means I can train and it'll get better then it's gotta be done.

[Houdini]

You must learn to get it right.  It's real easy to cut the blood of completely.  I found a combo of cross taping as for lig damage - plus -  thin strips across the pulley below the joint and above it too.  The finger was locked in a curving manner - not a full crimp - but far from straight either.  Sometimes I just had to cut it all off and start again.

Looking at the ligament side elevation  it looked kinda like this:

---
 X
---

But the top and bottom lines touching the legs of the X - if that makes sense.  I just locked the whole joint down completely so it couldn't twist or elongate.  Good luck.

[Jaspersharpe]

Thanks Houd. 

[Jaspersharpe]

YES YES FUCKING YES! Had a swift two hour session at Curbar yesterday. Taped as advised. Tried quite hard. No pain and no pain since. Thank you Houdini. I shall continue taping until it feels 100%. 

Taping still irritates the fuck out of me but it works. Small price to pay.

[Houdini]

Yeah . . .   



I'm good at fucking myself up, occassionally even learn how to do something about it 

[The Sausage]

Hi Jasper, sorry haven't bothered to read the whole thread, so apologies if i'm just repeating myself. with finger injuries an actual diagnosis is largely unnecessary, management is pretty much the same whatever you've done. you need to rest it until the swelling has gone down and it isn't too painful when you press into it. during this time regular icing or contrast bathing (+ anti-inflammatories) are a good idea to spped the process up. After 10 days or so you need to start loading the finger gradually and systematically, being guided by pain. i think a finger board is good as you can be very specific about the type of hold/grip and how much weight you put through it. for example, last year i had a bit of a long tendon tweak. i could do full loading half crimp hangs, but could barely put more than a few kilos through it in an open hand position. i could climb outside, but had to avoid certain holds. basically, use the finger board until you feel confident that the finger can cope with more dynamic and/or unpredictable climbing. always be ready to cut a session short if you feel you've overdone it. i wouldn't bother going to a physio, they'll only give you a progression of exercises and tell you to avoid going into pain. hope that helps and doesn't just repeat what everyone else has said. good luck. see you soon.

[Jaspersharpe]

Cheers Joe. It seems that by taping it correctly I'm avoiding loading it in the wrong way and basically doing what you are suggesting. It certainly feels a lot better both when climbing and after and I've virtually no reaction at all when pressing it now. I'm optimistic that it'll be 100% soon anyway.