[jfw]

fairfield race was awesome, cooler weather than coniston, and awesome views, with just a bit of clag on the top to add an atmospheric touch - runners disappearing into the mist!



really pleased with how i ran, paced myself loads better (and its a generally more runnable course) - only downside was twisting my ankle about 2 miles from the end! tried to run on it but could only walk 

did manage to finish, considering this, my time wasn't too bad! think i might have been 10-15 minutes faster without accident.

so i am icing right now, fortunately been able to work from home - went for hypochondriac xray (just for peace of mind that it wasn't broken).

just frustrating to be going well, have to find a wobble board! maybe try keep fit on bike.

you all set for duddon graeme? how is your injury?

[Graeme78]

really pleased with how i ran, paced myself loads better (and its a generally more runnable course) - only downside was twisting my ankle about 2 miles from the end! tried to run on it but could only walk 

did manage to finish, considering this, my time wasn't too bad! think i might have been 10-15 minutes faster without accident.

so i am icing right now, fortunately been able to work from home - went for hypochondriac xray (just for peace of mind that it wasn't broken).

just frustrating to be going well, have to find a wobble board! maybe try keep fit on bike.

you all set for duddon graeme? how is your injury?

That's a shame, I really enjoy the run off from Dove Pike. I wouldn't have thought it would be too long before your out running again. Have you any idea what your next race is likely to be now?
As for duddon, I think that's disappeared in a puff of smoke, the furthest I've ran lately has been about 8 miles and very limited climbing. I'm now hoping for three shires, it's a long way off but I think that's the next most do-able race in the lakes.
My legs been feeling better and I've been doing more stretching. It's an absolute nightmare trying to stretch before running, the dog starts whinging about the fact he's having to wait to get out
Hoping to get down the peak on Saturday and do the first half of the Edale skyline. Should either kill or cure me.

[Plattsy]

Love the photo. Hard luck with the ankle JFW. Any particular reason for twist? Thought I was going to twist mine on the way down the hill at the Chatsworth 10km on Sunday. A combination of tired legs, running too fast and uneven ground isn't great.

Kudos for finishing with the injury too. What was the distance and your time (if you don't mind me asking)?

[jfw]

 Have you any idea what your next race is likely to be now?

Had entertained thoughts of duddon short (now off menu) but had social committments, also that new great lakes run (though crazy amounts of climb) 13miles / 21km 7000feet / 2000m

Venue: Stool End Farm, Great Langdale 276057
http://secure.lakesrunner.com/welcome-lakes-runner-online-great-lakes-c-126_378.html

21 june so maybe  bit soon -

As for duddon, I think that's disappeared in a puff of smoke, the furthest I've ran lately has been about 8 miles and very limited climbing.

what about short for you? or just not rushing in?

 

Any particular reason for twist? Thought I was going to twist mine on the way down the hill at the Chatsworth 10km on Sunday. A combination of tired legs, running too fast and uneven ground isn't great.

Kudos for finishing with the injury too. What was the distance and your time (if you don't mind me asking)?

i'm sure it was partly being a bit tired - but mainly unlucky - coming down coniston the other week, i was much more tired, but much slower as a consequence

fairfield is 10 miles, 3000ft climb - did it in 2:21:54 - think i would have been 10-12 minute faster without the walking for last 2 miles - though no idea really

[Graeme78]

I did think about the short, I'll see how I go at the weekend first.
I also thought about the great lakes run and decided against it, I'd rather do something easier like Borrowdale or the full Duddon first 

2:21 is a reasonable time for Fairfield, my mates fiancee was only a couple of minutes faster than you and I don't think she was injured.

[jfw]

went for a test run (ahem) monday night - couple of road miles - not too bad a bit sore - could tell not ready for off road yet (and not too much on road running).

anyway good that its getting progressively better  (if it does seem slow process)

went doing easy traversing at wall last night - pumped out of my mind on the kids boulder    trying to do arcing as described by serpico - tres boring (but low ankle risk)

more bike for me probably (wish appetite had reduced a bit quicker in line with loss of exercise!)

did you do duddon short graeme?

[exPat]

Never thought I'd start running, but I did & really enjoyed it. One week later I had a stress fracture to my tibia 
Could this have been as a result of my shoes? I have Salomon XA Pro's & run on forest tracks.
http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.outdoorsinc.com/Activity/images/salomon-xa-pro-3d-trail-running-7084-f_1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.outdoorsinc.com/Activity/Trail-Running.cfm&h=284&w=420&sz=20&hl=en&start=2&um=1&tbnid=NObBVdtyMMkfCM:&tbnh=85&tbnw=125&prev=/images%3Fq%3DXA%2BPro%2B3D%2Bsalomon%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

I hope it's not the shoes, they cost me an arm & a leg   

[Cookie]

Never thought I'd start running, but I did & really enjoyed it. One week later I had a stress fracture to my tibia 
Could this have been as a result of my shoes? I have Salomon XA Pro's & run on forest tracks.

I hope it's not the shoes, they cost me an arm & a leg   

Hi exPat,
Sorry to hear about your stress fracture, hope it's not too painful!  I doubt it's the fault of the shoes, I've been running X-country in Salomons for years with no problems.  You should really speak with your orthopod or physio about it.  If you hadn't run much in the past but then you started running a lot, that's a well known cause of stress fractures.

[exPat]

Thanks Cookie, good to hear I've not bought shite shoes. I hadn't run for years & was doing 5Km 'jogs' most days, but at a gentle pace.
I'm looking forward to re-starting my running & want to avoid any repeat injury ... so a dumb question: I noticed BenF said he runs on his toes whereas I run on my heel first. Is there a correct way or is it a personal thing?

[jfw]

Never thought I'd start running, but I did & really enjoyed it. One week later I had a stress fracture to my tibia 

sorry about your leg

What might cause a stress fracture?
-Overloading the bone by continuous muscle contractions for example in running.
-Stress distribution in the bone altered because of continuing to run when the muscles are particularly fatigued. (Muscles are unable to take some of the stress so rely more on the bone).
-A sudden change in running surface for example going from grass training to lots of track or road running.
-Lots of small impacts on the bone even though they may be very small, a cumulative effect can build up.

http://www.sportsinjuryclinic.net/cybertherapist/front/lowerleg/stressfracture.htm

also exarcebated if you are a girly with low bone density

prob need to lay off running 8 weeks

[Houdini]

If you hadn't run much in the past but then you started running a lot, that's a well known cause of stress fractures.

Oh . . .

Erm . . .   Still running, couple of hours this morning.  I like chasing people on bikes, preferably chicks.  There's this road here: long & punctuated by traffic lights, great for shaming riders and feeling damaged as one waits for the lights.  Overtook a few today and nearly had a dude who was being pulled along by a dog, but the pooch was just too good.

Nearly killed myself w/ running last week.  The weather was top notch, I just ran along the river in a techno haze until I realised I was in new territory and couldn't cheat w/ the trains for the return.  Fool, I was running for nearly four hours; knees and hips felt savage for a few days after . . .

[jfw]

bone density increases as you adapt to more loading - stress fractuers happen when the bones don't beef up fast enough in line with increase in loading.

i would think that how fast your bones adapt (and starting bone density) will be factors

[Cookie]

I agree with jfw about bone density, makes perfect sense.

On the subject of heel striking vs running on the toes, my coach used to tell me that running on the toes is for sprinting and for building up speed quickly, whereas a (bit of a) heel strike is essential for steady distance running.  The tricky part being that a heavy heel strike is bad, and anyone doing a lot of running needs to learn to load their weight properly (ie making sure their body is upright, landing mainly on the forefoot but using the entire foot to propel them as they run, using their arms properly etc)

People are different though.  My old training buddy (who went on to become a much more successful and prolofic triathlete than me) always struggled with sprints/strides, as her natural style was to land heavily on the entire foot.  I could woop her ass over 400m, but any further and her strange style (coupled with her incredible stamina and willpower) came into its own.

If you plan to run a lot, it might be worth paying for a few sessions with a professional coach to get your technique right.  I used to do a bit of coaching (before I got a proper job), and it's amazing how many people have terrible technique in both their running and their stretches. A bit of instruction can make a huge difference, and prevent self-inflicted injuries.

[Plattsy]

Changing technique sounds easier than it probably is. Changing something which you learnt as a child and which has moulded you from a bio-mechanical point of view has got to be extremely difficult. Would a few coach sessions really make a difference?

[slackline]

Changing technique sounds easier than it probably is. Changing something which you learnt as a child and which has moulded you from a bio-mechanical point of view has got to be extremely difficult. Would a few coach sessions really make a difference?

Probably not, but the coaching sessions would identify potential problems and advise on how to correct them, its then down to the individual to put that into practice in their own time/training.

[fatkid2000]

Don't forget Stress fractures can occur in well trained individuals - one of The British hopefuls of the olympics who was due to compete in the heptathlon is injured with a stress fracture, although there could be other factors at work here. It is well reported that a high percentage of female athletes have eating disorders and thus overtrain and don't eat properly, this combo means that they lose the protective effect that oestrogen normally provides to bone due to not menstruating. Poor nutritional imput also loeads to osteopaenia in these athletes.

Stress fractures historically also occur in soldiers - although poor boots are probably a contributing factor here. Stress fracture used to be known as marching fractures.

[Adam Lincoln]

I always keep trying to get into running, for a good base layer of aerobic fitness, and in my old age my metabolism is slowing, so to keep the weight off.

I usually end up going out once, usually a 3 mile run'ish, it hurts too much or feels really hard and i give up. How quickly does it become easier. Also my lower back tends to hurt and my legs are sore for a few days after... Obviously this then affects my climbing, so not good. Any tips?

[Plattsy]

I always keep trying to get into running, for a good base layer of aerobic fitness, and in my old age my metabolism is slowing, so to keep the weight off.

I usually end up going out once, usually a 3 mile run'ish, it hurts too much or feels really hard and i give up. How quickly does it become easier. Also my lower back tends to hurt and my legs are sore for a few days after... Obviously this then affects my climbing, so not good. Any tips?

3 miles sounds like it is a little too far at the moment. Try cutting your distance and pace a little. Also if you're running one 3 mile run per week maybe increase the frequency a little too.

How about trying 1.5/2 miles twice a week at a pace slightly slower than you're current pace. Try this for 3/4 weeks and then try the 3 mile again at the same pace as the 1.5/2 miles and see how it goes. Also try to run different routes to lessen boredom, running a new route can sometimes feel easier because you have more to occupy the mind.

My lower back used to hurt when I first starting running. A colleague who runs alot thought it might be because I lean forward when I run. This over time has stopped hurting when I run now. So I figure my back is now strong enough to cope with my style.

I reckon it started feeling easier after about 6 months. At first adding an extra mile to the current distance of say 2 miles is hard because the percentage increase is huge (50%) but as your distance improves adding extra distance becomes easier.

[Houdini]

*  Are you vegetarian (getting enough recovery protein)?


*  Footwear:  maybe a change to a more cushioning-style or cushioning/supportive shoe could help.


*  Stretching apres-run:  are you doing enough?  I do 6 different leg stretches (plus upper body stretches) and aim for no less than 20 minutes worth.

*  A move to skipping might suit you (or substitute one run for a skip session).  

[jfw]

my guess, if you are a reasonably fit climber (used to walking at least a little bit to get to crags), is that 3 miles isn't too far - but that you are running too fast. sometimes if you are fit but your body isn't used to running - you can push too hard to fast - and whilst your lungs/heart can cope - your legs/knees/feet back take longer to get used to the idea.

loads of running web sites post good beginners programmes - but if they are too easy they may be boring to you. loads include a walking running phase to build up to just running. probably by reading/trying them you might be able to  judge if they are right for you (and adapt them as appropriate)

i would suggest trying to go out for 20 minutes building up to half an hour, (don't worry too much about distance ...yet) run at a comfortable pace where you could maintain a conversation. most sources seem to suggest increasing milage by only a small percentage each week.

try to get out 3 times a week at least - and try to build one run up to be a slightly longer run (i.e. at least 40 minutes preferably more)

try to run off road - so much less punishing than tarmac (get the right shoes for whichever surface you're on)

you want to run as cross training - so you don't want to push too hard - as with most things when you first start you will probably make good (and motivating) progress. even though your main focus is climbing - you might want to dedicate a period of time, like 3 - 4 weeks to get into running (maybe when you are giving your tendons/fingers a rest anyway).

the main danger of running for cross training is that it is dangerously addictive - and you can find yourself in phases of it being your preferred sport. 

sometimes getting carried away on an "easy" run, can blow the next days planned climbing session (but it was great!).

[Adam Lincoln]

Thanks a lot guys, ill have a ponder on those, and let them marinate!

[Plattsy]

the main danger of running for cross training is that it is dangerously addictive - and you can find yourself in phases of it being your preferred sport. 

So very true.

[jfw]

well 6 weeks after doing ankle - managed to complete first off road run yesterday!

did actually nearly walk down all the hills (i forgot how tiring it is going so slowly down hill).

last week did a road relay (3 x 3.5 miles) - and managed my lap in 26:46 (7:33 min/mile) not bad for first race back (but slower than 5 mile times from a few months ago (7:20min/mile). getting there i suppose...

upcoming challenge set by crazy mate - thinking about doing "hanging stone leap" challenge in August - 24 miles off road (but not as much climbas fell, fell races) - further than i've run - so something to think about. 

[Houdini]

Right now, I'm the fucking king of the Edgebaston Reservoir racetrack.

 

[Plattsy]

Could anyone recommend a few up and coming fell races for a complete novice?

I've been running for some time now and would like to test myself on some tougher terrain.

I've spotted a short race called the Trunce 7 in August as a possibility. Any others I could consider?