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One for the runners (Read 125525 times)

andy_e

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#425 Re: One for the runners
October 03, 2017, 02:58:21 pm
I got chased by a load of bullocks once at twilight whilst out for a run. That was spooky.

SA Chris

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#426 Re: One for the runners
October 03, 2017, 04:36:09 pm
Did a night run with a mad mate of mine on Saturday - super fun!!!

https://www.relive.cc/view/1209294333

Also, cows sound super weird and scary at night...

It is fun. Doing this next month, should be good http://www.illuminatorrun.co.uk/

T_B

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#427 Re: One for the runners
October 03, 2017, 05:20:34 pm
On the same theme, there's an 8k Hathersage Night Race on 23 November

http://www.fellrunner.org.uk/races.php?id=5355


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#428 Re: One for the runners
October 28, 2017, 11:16:20 am
Heart rate training

I've been using a heart rate monitor all year. The thing is, I find it nigh on impossible to train in 'recommended' zones as they just don't seem to reflect the level of effort I am putting in.

My resting heart rate is 57bpm. My max heart rate is 188bpm. I'm aged 41.

I can barely shuffle at anything less than 155bpm and even 160-165 feels pretty aerobic and 'conversational'. Tempo pace 'feels' around 170 - 172bpm i.e. 90% ish of my max heart rate.

I note there are coaches who don't like perceiving effort by heart rate percentage.

Any thoughts?

DAVETHOMAS90

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#429 Re: One for the runners
October 28, 2017, 02:31:43 pm
Hi Tom.

First thoughts.

I always found using the HR monitor very useful for encouraging slower running. The term "conversational" can be used to the same effect of course. I think a lot of runners think this means squeezing in sentences between "huffs", which is better thought of as "huffing" (70-79% HRM).

I think that "conversational" running is better thought of as recovery work - slow and easy - the purpose being, to recover properly for your next hard training day. As they say, you can't run too slowly on your easy days, only too quickly!

When I'm running, there are days when I could definitely walk as quickly as I run, but that's so that I'm fully recharged - both physically and psychologically - for my next hard workout.

What you refer to as barely a "shuffle" is probably what you need to do more of, do that you have more energy for your hard days. In running, it doesn't work very well, to try to go out to "perform" as often as we like to think we can when we're climbing.

The overhanging emphasis on performance/self-monitoring will probably result in a degree of under-resting. When we are not resting adequately, our HR "bandwidth" is massively reduced, meaning that it takes very little exertion to cause a spike in heart rate, but also, our maximum heart rate is also reduced. I like to think of the top and bottom of these ranges as our "powerband". Athletic performance depends significantly on having a wider HR range to work with, and this is what's compromised when we don't rest sufficiently.

I love this stuff btw, so would be really happy to talk about it. The other think I made a particular note of was that the number of times we're able to "peak" in a season goes down significantly as we get older. (I was going to say "in our 40s", but Paul doesn't like it if I forget how old he is  :P )

Hope that's of some relevance.
Dave.

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#430 Re: One for the runners
October 28, 2017, 06:44:50 pm
That's a really useful reply Dave, thank you.

I think one of my 'issues' is whilst I try and measure 'time on my feet' over mileage, I inevitably track the latter and slower running does not equate to more miles. Especially when mid-week training slots are often restricted to 1 hour i.e. lunch break.

Also, when you're as slow as me, it takes a lot to set the ego aside and run at true conversational pace.

I am trying to run more frequently, which necessitates slower, aerobic, running most of the time. My goals are along these lines anyway i.e. longer fell runs, plus I have a proximal hamstring tendinopathy injury, which is speed limiting.

Overall, I think my base fitness is still relatively poor as I just haven't been running for that long and therefore my HR band is not that wide.

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#431 Re: One for the runners
October 28, 2017, 07:18:46 pm
Heart rate training

I've been using a heart rate monitor all year. The thing is, I find it nigh on impossible to train in 'recommended' zones as they just don't seem to reflect the level of effort I am putting in.

My resting heart rate is 57bpm. My max heart rate is 188bpm. I'm aged 41.

I can barely shuffle at anything less than 155bpm and even 160-165 feels pretty aerobic and 'conversational'. Tempo pace 'feels' around 170 - 172bpm i.e. 90% ish of my max heart rate.

I note there are coaches who don't like perceiving effort by heart rate percentage.

Any thoughts?
Have you done a max heart rate test or are you just guessing at what it is or worse 220 minus your age.

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#432 Re: One for the runners
October 28, 2017, 07:28:56 pm
Yes I did a max heart rate test using my HRM.

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#433 Re: One for the runners
October 29, 2017, 03:10:53 am
I think it would be a good discipline to try not to worry about the mileage, Tom!

Borrow someone's dog, or trot along the edges, doing a route here and there. A couple of years ago, I went out regularly, picking up aluminium cans, jogging along with a bag for between 1.5 - 2.5 hours at a time. Anything like that is a good way of helping to keep the pace down.

The problem, is that if your heart rate starts to increase, you'll be filling in with your anaerobic system, and therefore harming the base level work.

Another thing that I used to find really effective, was going out for 2 or 3 short and easy runs in the day. I used to have about 2 quick days per week. Elite athletes will typically have a far greater difference between their slow and quick paces, than less experienced runners. That's worth bearing in mind.

Finally, 15 minutes shuffling might be the best way of starting a longer session. You'll gradually increase your pace anyway, as you become stronger/fitter.

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#434 Re: One for the runners
October 30, 2017, 10:59:54 am
Thanks Dave - much appreciated. Some excellent suggestions there. It's a challenge when you have limited time to train and of course enjoy 'pushing it'.

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#435 Re: One for the runners
October 30, 2017, 11:36:02 am
When training for ultras a couple of years ago I started using a HRM and followed some guidance in a book a friend lent me. To train for endurance and hoping to train my body to use fat as fuel I planned to run from Totley to Millhouses and back (6 miles as flat as possible) 5 days a week (with longer runs the other 2 days). After a max heart test my 70% was 147 bpm. The book advised as soon as you go over this walk and if that doesn't work stop until it drops below. The first 6 miler took 1hr 11mins and it was very frustrating and I must have stood still several times looking at my watch waiting for it to drop. Going up uphill I was allowed an extra 5 bpm on top.

After doing this for about 4 months over the same route I could run at 147 easily without walking/stopping and the time was down to 52 mins. Doing the same down Chesterfield canal the time was quicker over the same effort and distance.

I think it definitely increased my endurance and ability to plod for a long time. Lost a lot of top speed in the process though.  :devangel:

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#436 Re: One for the runners
October 30, 2017, 12:37:48 pm
Interesting Andy. So was the idea of running on the flat due to it being easier to keep the HR down? How were the legs once you hit uphills in racing?

At the moment half of my lunch time sub 1-hr runs include two or three laps of the ski village i.e. 200-300m ascent putting me well into the anaerobic zone. Sounds like I may be better shuffling on the flat more, despite my aspirations being in the hills.

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#437 Re: One for the runners
October 30, 2017, 01:11:24 pm
My longer runs were in the hills where I walked the hills or jogged up them slowly which is what I expected to do in the ultras.

I'm no expert but I guess for shorter races up to 10 miles a mixture of aerobic (<70%), threshold training (~85%) and hill reps (~85%) would see benefits. Maybe one threshold, one hill reps and the rest aerobic per week to create a base and take it from there.

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#438 Re: One for the runners
October 30, 2017, 03:17:13 pm
So was the idea of running on the flat due to it being easier to keep the HR down?
Forgot to reply to this. Yep pretty much that.

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#439 Re: One for the runners
October 30, 2017, 05:13:33 pm
Thanks Andy

SA Chris

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#440 Re: One for the runners
October 30, 2017, 05:50:32 pm

It is fun. Doing this next month, should be good http://www.illuminatorrun.co.uk/

Great fun. Appreciate it's out of the way for a lot of you, but a great event. I took it really (too?) easy, as I've not trained much recently and getting over cold, managed under intended 3 hours walking most of the uphills. Had to stop to refuel, was feeling really empty and stopped to see if someone was OK, who stacked pretty badly..

And well done to richieb for cruising his way round it in 2:22.

Winning time of 1:36 is just nuts though.

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#441 Re: One for the runners
October 30, 2017, 07:18:50 pm
Cheers Chris, it was ace. A real experience seeing the long line of torches snaking over the moors.
Where else does the pre-race briefing include guidance on what to do if you get attacked by a Capercaillie?  :o
The venison broth at the finish was good as well.




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#442 Re: One for the runners
October 31, 2017, 09:45:40 am
I was disappointed not to see any TBH, not seen one yet.

XC winter 10 k series starts this weekend, Knockburn Loch.

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#443 Re: One for the runners
October 31, 2017, 11:03:21 am
I was disappointed not to see any TBH, not seen one yet.


If you slip me a few bob I can let you in on the secret knowledge Chris ;)

In case any of the funding partners of the Capercaillie Project are reading this, that's a joke, honest.

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#444 Re: One for the runners
November 01, 2017, 07:53:20 am
So shuffled my way around the White Edge-Curbar-Froggatt loop last night at 70% (134bpm), which entailed quite a bit of walking. Despite it being fairly flat I had to pretty much walk any incline. It was actually quite fun in a way being so easy and not feeling tired afterwards. Amusing moment was passing some walkers very slowly!

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#445 Re: One for the runners
December 04, 2017, 11:47:53 am
Update.

I've completed 5 weeks of running incorporating more aerobic work, running at a very easy pace. Quite a bit of shuffling to and from work.

Some thoughts:
  • Running very slowly feels great. The body isn't stressed, it's 'invigorating' and your legs often feel great the following day (rather than battered).
  • It allows you to work on cadence and form. The former almost comes naturally i.e. working on speeding this up, whilst still keeping HR down. This in itself has been hugely beneficial.
  • Psychologically 'going for a run' is never daunting. It's easy.
  • Despite a knackered ankle, I can now run multiples days on.
  • When I have run harder (at e.g. threshold level) I can almost feel a different sort of 'aerobic foundation'. I can feel my cardiovascular system isn't stressed as quickly. I'm recovering more quickly during the run. I've tended to finish not feeling as knackered and with as poor form.
  • Recovery time is reduced. I finally understand how proper athletes run every day.
  • My hamstring (which I injured in the summer) is working as it should be.

For a relative beginner it's taken me a long time to use a HR monitor properly, to leave the ego behind and to learn to run at a very gentle pace. I wish I'd been doing this 12 months ago, as I probably wouldn't have been injured. That said, overall you of course need to increase the volume to mix in some harder training with the aerobic stuff. So climbing has been squeezed. In the New Year I plan to start doing some more specific workouts to try and increase speed, but for now I'm gonna keep plodding (off on a work trip over Xmas, which will involve walking very slowly uphill).


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#446 Re: One for the runners
May 04, 2020, 05:16:15 pm
I wonder if anyone can point me in the right direction for sorting out a problem I've been struggling with for a few years whenever I try to start running again.

Every year or so I try and get into running again and the result is always the same - the first few weeks of short flattish runs are great, and then my left knee starts to hurt. Specifically, the pain seems to originate from the superior tibio-fibular joint. Through a lot of trial and error and some internet reading I now strongly suspect that this is related to my poor ankle dorsiflexion - as I understand it, poor dorsiflexion causes excessive torsion of the fibula which causes irritation in the superior tib-fib joint. The obvious answer to this would be to improve the ankle dorsiflexion, however my ankles are knackered from jumping off high problems on to crap pads for years (I had an MRI at some point and it showed "chondral defect on the tibial plafond") and no amount of calf stretching seems to yield any improvements. I have also found that taping around the top of the calf to support the superior tib-fib joint to be useful, however this seemed to move the problem further up my leg, as I then developed hip pain (feels like greater trochanter bursitits).

Does anyone have any good resources or knowledge about these kinds of problems? It was previously suggested (after the ankle MRI) that surgery could improve the dorsiflexion, but I would rather avoid this if possible. I have found that running uphill is worst for the knee - I think because keeping feet flat when running uphill requires the greatest degree of dorsiflexion. Perhaps changing my gait could help?

I flipping love running up and down hills and I am feeling quite motivated to sort this out so any pointers would be much appreciated!

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#447 Re: One for the runners
May 04, 2020, 06:12:27 pm
A couple of ideas though feel free to ignore.

Maybe try doing 2 or 3 sessions pw of specific strength training?

Myofacial release? You probably have a lot of tightness somewhere if youíve got a knackered ankle.

What drop are your shoes? I run in 4,6 and 8mm drop fell/trail shoes. Itís definitely harder going uphill in the 4mm (also have crap dorsiflexion due to broken ankle).

Shorten stride??

Definitely worth persevering, especially at the moment. Canít imagine keeping sane without being able to run.

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#448 Re: One for the runners
May 04, 2020, 06:15:08 pm
Sally Fawcett has been recommended previously if youíre after a physio.

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#449 Re: One for the runners
May 04, 2020, 06:59:20 pm
Cheers for the reply. I have been doing a bit more stretching and foam rolling recently so hopefully that will help a bit. I am wearing asics trail shoes with 10mm drop.

 

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