[cider nut]

Wonder how many finger injury threads get instantly ignored?  Still, hopefully this will get some views 

I've got pain on the top of the ring finger on my left hand (and also the middle finger on my right hand, but it's not as bad).  It's the opposite side to all the A pulleys, i.e. on the bony knuckle side, not the soft inside.  The pain is kind of on the side of the knuckle (the left side as you look at the back of the hand), rather than right on top.  I have no idea what (tendons?) are in that area though.

It's fairly painful if I massage it as you would a tendon (got plenty of experience with tendon injuries, long suffering from golfer's elbow).  Also, if I bend my finger, or try to tap the palm of my hand with my finger tip (which I can manage with all other fingers but can't reach with this one) it hurts.

Unfortunately I can't remember how I did it, but think it was a one off event not over-use, and it's been sore for a good few weeks.  I didn't think climbing affected it, but lately have noticed it gets a bit stiffer after a session.  Also, on Tuesday I really aggravated it by trying to climb the indoor crack line at Warrington wall using ring locks.

Anyone know what I've done or what kind of injury I've got?  I can work out the treatment (rest, taping, massage, ice, ibuprofen, doctors, the usual), just want to know some more details about the actual problem.  Cheers!

[cider nut]

p.s.  Found a diagram of the anatomy of a finger, first diagram on this page:
www.aafp.org/afp/20060301/810.html
The pain is where the collateral ligament is shown.

[Fultonius]

Case closed......collateral ligament strain. (not that I'm remotely qualified to assess this, especially over the internet)

Cross taping might help.

Google for collateral ligament strain. Do what it says.

[Paul B]

i'd add: look onwww.climbinginjuries.com and there is another thread started recently by me that has some info/advice on it. good luck

[Percy B]

Sounds like co-lateral ligament strain. I've had this a lot (a quick look at the state of my hands will confirm 25 years of climbing/injury ignorance!) in several fingers - normally caused by bizarre circumstances. Most recently was 3 weeks ago when I slipped on some mud in the Peak whilst walking the dog and put my hand down to break the fall - result was wrecked co-lateral ligaments on the ring finger of my right hand!

Anyway, I cross tape the affected finger when climbing and eventually it gets better. This is NOT the best solution! I have always climbed through finger injury because if I can't climb it makes working as a route setter impossible, so I have plenty of experience in how to treat injuries very badly. Co-lateral ligaments get better reasonably quickly, but obviously rest if possible speeds things up considerably. Cross taping will support the injury when climbing, but you should avoid loading the finger sideways as much as you can (it hurts when you do this, so thats a good reminder you're not helping the healing process). For example, climbing finger cracks which put massive strain on the co-lateral ligaments is a very bad idea! This is how most people strain their ligaments in the first place.

If you can,rest up and don't climb until it feels better. If you need further motivation to help your fingers heal properly, ask to see my hands next time you're in the Works - knarled and massive are two words that spring to mind...!!!

[blur]

This thread has been very useful for me, couple of days back my finger just clicked funny and has been swollen ever since...(index finger RH) its hurts on the sides and underneath but particularly the top of the knuckle. I've been icing and resting it for the last few days and hoping it will heal itself.

Ideally how often should one ice each day? And at this stage is ice/hot water treatments beneficial or Dave Mac's cold water bucket treatment any use?

Thankyou for your help!

[monkey boy]

I think this is what i have been suffering from as well although not as badly. I have had it for about a month now but just keep climbing. If it hurts badly stop! Warm up well and ice after use. This seems to be helping me but as i say am not sure if its as bad as yours.

[cider nut]

percy - top experiental knowledge, thanks.   *Most* climbing doesn't aggravate it, and now I know to stay away from cracks (and small crimps it seems), I should be able to carry on with care and lots of tape.  (May well be down the Works this weekend!)

blur - I'd read that you're not supposed to do the ice/heat thing for tendon injuries until the pain's gone away, as the pain represents inflamation and you shouldn't heat an inflamed tendon, but I may be wrong.

[Paul B]

your not wrong....heating an inflamed tendon is not good!

[blur]

Thanks for reiterating that! I'll steer clear of heat for the moment!

[cider nut]

Percy -

Asked after you at the Works today to check out these monster hands of thumbs you've apparently got   Alas you weren't there though.  My finger seemed to hold up well, cross taped it up and didn't jam it in any cracks.  Shame I took an awkward fall off the comp wall early on in my session and pranged my elbow causing a lot of pain, so am now out of action until it stop hurting!!  Managed to do some of the green spotty slab problems one handed, but couldn't keep it up as too much strain on the tricep on my other arm.

[a dense loner]

cider nut are you fatdocs other half?

[Fiend]

 

[cider nut]

cider nut are you fatdocs other half?

I'm not sure why you asked that so I'm sure I'm missing a joke, but I'll just answer normally - nope, I'm attached to Fiend instead.

[a dense loner]

you poor, poor woman. i'll wager he makes you dress up in all that viking stuff and carry round flagons of ale while serving him at home?
i asked since every post you make alludes to some sort of injury, which is fatdocs middle name.

[Fiend]

No no, some of cider nut's posts allude to existential climbing angst about progression, philosophy and psychology. Which is MY middle name.

P.S. I like the viking costume serving wench idea. Maybe you do have some taste after all dense.

[cider nut]

Dense -

Because I'm a geek, and like information and have a few minutes to kill before heading out, and haven't made that many posts since I joined, I had a search through what I'd contributed to the forum to see if you're correct. 

And the only posts I've made about injuries are the 5 (now 6) I've made on this thread.  Which is on the injuries forum, so it's okay 

However, since you brought it up, maybe now's a good time to list my various joint problems and injuries - ankles, knees, back, shoulder, rotator cuff, both elbows, wrists, finger.  Have I forgotten anything?   

[Monolith]

If you hear something that sounds like carpet ripping and feel a crippling pain in the pad of your index finger should you be really depressed? Don't know much about finger physiology at all but should I be venturing to the hozza or icing it and dealing with it like a man of substance? There was some initial swelling in the pad which now seems to have subsided.

[BenF]

No Tom, what you need to do is keep training on it and get Donnelly to have a look at it some time this week, if you see him at the board that is.  Sounds fine to me though.

[cider nut]

Just an update on this.  Had four weeks off then a few easy weeks after I bumped my elbow, so figured that would give my finger a good chance to get better.  When I started climbing again (elbow still not better, but physio said to climb anyway) the finger was still giving me problems, but I was so eager to climb again (had got really weak in the rest patch) that I just taped it up and ignored it.  Crimping seemed to really aggravate it and although it would improve each day spent not climbing, it would seize up again after a wall session, and last week I flared it up again - which I realised was no good as I'm off to Font at Easter, so time to pay more attention to the problem and do something about it. 

So I'm doing two things - climb on steep jugs (get strength back up and avoid crimping), and try Dave MacLeod's cold treatment idea, see video clip here: http://www.davemacleod.com/articles.htm .  Seems to have worked a treat so far!  Had two wall sessions this week and neither of them has aggravated it.  The elbow doesn't seem to be holding up so well unfortunately, but I could do with trying out the treatment on that injury, but while I can get away with submerging my hand in a tub of cold water at my desk at work (only time I have to do it), I don't think the same could be said for sticking my elbow in a big bowl of it!

Would be interested in hearing from anyone else who's tried MacLeod's suggestion and to hear what you think of it - sorry if there's already been a thread on it, feel free to abuse me and point me towards it if so.

[Three Nine]

dont think Mcleod's cold treatment would work so well on an elbow as its bigger than a finger so harder for the cold to get to the affected part? not sure about this though?

elbow problems for me have always been a result of being stressed and pissed and so climbing shit, pulling all the time and not using my feet properly. Last time it happend I took a week off and then did a week or so just climbing outdoors, being relaxed and using feet properly and it seems to be totally fine now.

[cider nut]

Well it was Dave that recommended it, but haven't had a chance to try it yet.  I might try hot and cold first, as it only takes 10 mins, not half an hour.  I bumped my elbow falling backwards onto a mat (see above somewhere), but I've got a 3.5 year history of elbow issues now, so might be less effective on the elbows than on the finger.  Every time I flare it up noticeably I take a week or two off until it's stopped being tender, but there's always an underlying issue.  Hot/cold and cold treatment are about the only things I've never tried, and I've been through about 10 physios!

[The Sausage]

hello. as always, i've only had a brief skim of previous posts, so apologies if i repeat previous advice...
have a look at jaspersharpe's "what have i done?" thread, his was a similar injury i think. I wrote on that thread that finger injury rehab pretty much follows the same guidelines whatever the 'diagnosis'. Basically, load progressively and systematically and use pain/symptoms as your guide. If taping allows this to be easier, then all to the good. You have to be able to differentiate between your symptoms (i.e. pain which is telling you that you're exacerbating it - usually sharp and occurs when you load it), and pain associated with breakdown of scar tissue (more of a diffuse ache, usually after training). Take it slowly, be regimented in progressing and don't progress the load until you are sure the current load isn't making it worse. and be honest with yourself. denial is the enemy of recovery.
as far as 'elbows' goes, it is a very complex issue. my feeling is that sore elbows are linked to posture and long-term shortening of soft tissue. Climbers are often C-shaped through their thoracic spines (exaggerated kyphosis), which has an impact on scapular position and ultimately results in inwardly rotated humerus (humeruses? humerii?), which causes the elbow to be slightly flexed when hanging at your side. Try exaggerating the inward rotation of your arm in standing (turn your palm outwards), and now straighten your arm - it won't feel like a natural movement. So, you spend most of your life with your elbow slightly flexed, which means that both your finger flexors and extensors are in a shortened position. not to mention your radial nerve. This means that just straightening your arm, without any loading, will increase the tension in these tissues. add a load, such as catching a hold with a straight arm, and you have a recipe for tendon strain or radial nerve aggravation. phew. after years of this type of injury the tendons become scarred, and therefore less elastic.
rehab consists of postural re-education, stretching, re-training of postural musculature to correct pelvic and scapula position and stability. there ain't no quick fix. my advice would be pilates or yoga. develop an awareness of pelvic position and correct spinal alignment. try standing with your chest open, shoulders tensioned slightly down and back (don't wrench them back) and palms facing forwards. tuck your chin in a bit to straighten your neck.
sorry about the lecture. i'm supposed to be writing a job application...