[dave]

i think the key here is he didn't just get to the lip holds and decided he couldn't be arsed topping out, he didn't top out because of the 3" of snow. I say this is fair enough. In my mind having several inches of snow on the top temporarily turns the problem into no-topout problem, as if it was crag-based (would it be any less of a problem if it was crag based? no). lets excersise some common sense for christ's sake.

[Jaspersharpe]

Not wanting to put words in his mouth but Dob is saying that it's all about the move on this problem, not in general. The Joker is universally known as a "one move" problem. There's no comparison between someone dogging their way up a route and taking the tick and not being able to do a 4A top out due to it being covered in snow.

By the way, those kind of tactics and claiming of routes are certainly not "the modern standard" (as slackers has pointed out) and I saw similar on SS on numerous occasions 20 years ago.

[Averageman]

Not wanting to put words in his mouth but Dob is saying that it's all about the move on this problem, not in general. The Joker is universally known as a "one move" problem. There's no comparison between someone dogging their way up a route and taking the tick and not being able to do a 4A top out due to it being covered in snow.

By the way, those kind of tactics and claiming of routes are certainly not "the modern standard" (as slackers has pointed out) and I saw similar on SS on numerous occasions 20 years ago.

I do understand what your saying, i am just attempting to clarify in my own mind the thoughts of others, sadly yes SS can leave a man feeling jaded.
Oh and Dave i did take the snow into consideration, and i accept your point about crag based problems.

[Sloper]

I'm firmly of the 'no top, no tick' school; however. let's be clear he did hit the top, he held the top, he went to stand up on the top.  To my mind the problem is well and truly ticked.

[soapy]

in that case i got the tick on everest several years ago, not topping out due to a smattering of snow on top






















..about 15,000 foots worth of smattering

[dobbin]

Not wanting to put words in his mouth

Thats not like you. Usually you are only too keen to put things in my mouth...

Anyway, I wholeheartedly agree with Jasper and dave - with specific reference to the Joker its all about getting to the lip. As long as you arrive at the lip and can be shown to be in control, and as you can see, i do stick my head over to confirm no snow mice have carved a handy ice runnel (they hadnt), so its not as if I lucked out, hit the top and fell off.

Ultimately, as Percy has alluded to above, its up to my moral compass whether I'm happy with what I did, and I am. I know I did it, and I'm happy. I think its important to be honest though, and this has been an interesting debate. Finally, I'm hoping to have another look at it tomorrow, so who knows - I may get to do the all important 5b mantle then!

[T_B]

and this has been an interesting debate.

Hmm, not sure about that!!! In the case of the joker i think anyone who says you haven't done the problem is either a) a mountaineer or b) taking the p*ss.

As for west side story or other such blocs where people traverse off and claim the tick.... i don't know how they can sleep at night 

Well done BTW - looks like a sweet move.

[hairich]

i cant believe this is even being discussed. i was there doing the filming. dobbin did it easy first time and totally static second time. what is the point of trying to swim up a slab covered in 6 inches of snow only to fall off break an ankle and have 3 months off. get a grip he pissed it.

[Averageman]

i cant believe this is even being discussed. i was there doing the filming. dobbin did it easy first time and totally static second time. what is the point of trying to swim up a slab covered in 6 inches of snow only to fall off break an ankle and have 3 months off. get a grip he pissed it.

Jeeeeses, what! you get a grip, i can see he pissed it, and i take my hat of to you Dobbin, its more than i can do at the moment, GOOD EFFORT. 
I was merely asking the question of what is more important, the move or the problem complete.

[Fiend]

To be fair, a mountaineer would have given topping out a proper go. I'd have like to have seen dob do that, would have made an ace video 

However, I'm definitely liking the way you catch that hold dob, very controlled. Next time do a one armer on it before matching??

[chillax]

I think the more important question here is a consensus grade for the topout! We've had everything from 4a to 5b. Its a travesty that such an important piece of climbing history remains ungraded....

p.s. effort Dobbin, you made it look like piss!

[Averageman]

Snow, no problem.

[slackline]

I'd have like to have seen dob do that, would have made an ace video 

The Ace video is expected in a couple of months 

[hairich]

whoa there averageman.you seem to think my comment was aimed at you.it was in general to anyone who didnt think ben had done the joker.

[Averageman]

whoa there averageman.you seem to think my comment was aimed at you.it was in general to anyone who didnt think ben had done the joker.

Ok fair do's, but i was the only only one who asked the question, does that constitute a send.

[Jim]

a tick for me is standing on the top having done all the moves.

you'd hate the Tor then.

with good reason

[dobbin]

I'd have like to have seen dob do that, would have made an ace video 

The Ace video is expected in a couple of months 

You cock cheese slackers! I was gonna say that. Dammit.

Anyway, I'm a really nice guy and I cant believe you're all saying these awfil things. You're gonna make me hang up my boots (where is the boot rack?).

[shark]

(quote) Finally, I'm hoping to have another look at it tomorrow, so who knows - I may get to do the all important 5b mantle then!
[/quote]

Hopefully there will still be enough snow so you can plant a flag in the summit.

[slackline]

I'd have like to have seen dob do that, would have made an ace video 

The Ace video is expected in a couple of months 

You cock cheese slackers! I was gonna say that. Dammit.

 

[Averageman]

I'd have like to have seen dob do that, would have made an ace video 

The Ace video is expected in a couple of months 

You cock cheese slackers! I was gonna say that. Dammit.

Anyway, I'm a really nice guy and I cant believe you're all saying these awfil things. You're gonna make me hang up my boots (where is the boot rack?).

^^^NO don't do that, saw some of your other vids on Vimeo, your doing good lad.

[Jaspersharpe]

Anyway, I'm a really nice guy and I cant believe you're all saying these awfil things. You're gonna make me hang up my boots (where is the boot rack?).

This is the best thread ever. I would give you +ve karma for that but you've had more than enough for one week.

[dobbin]

pedofil

[Jaspersharpe]

I think the more important question here is a consensus grade for the topout! We've had everything from 4a to 5b. Its a travesty that such an important piece of climbing history remains ungraded....

You could always ask Scott?

[GCW]

Jas, it's often difficult to grade moves like that on the flash.  After all, a bouldering grade is for a worked (ie easiest method) ascent, so unless Scott happened upon the perfect sequence he may not be the best person to comment.

[Sloper]

I can remember some fat punter from Nidderdale trying to sandbag me on a V2 at Brimham, I flashed it to the ice covered top before faffing about trying to clear enough snow before giving up and dropping off.

Said fat punter tried to deny me the flash before failing to even try the first move.

He then tried to give me crap for not topping out.

I called it an 'ice flash' and the fat punter something dreadfully rude.

I think Percy, in general terms has a point.