[Jaspersharpe]

Dave you're like a fucking encyclopedia, I'd forgotten most of those great quotes. I agree. Jerry wins for being the best self publicist in the business and not giving a fuck who he offended. And for not realising he was repeatedly using a hold called "Moffat - shit stained shorts boy" when training on my board.

Oh and for being the best.

[dobbin]

They're both (or were) great climbers in very different ways. Jerry was much stronger than Johnny, but JOhnny was on the next level in terms of movement. Which of these you value most will determine who you think is best.

Back to the old training vs climbing debate 

Jerry also had a porsche, and a lancia and isnt a barking fruitcake. Please dismiss the comments in this paragraph as insignificant.

[Fiend]

Thread of the year 

[dave]

and a lancia

.....HF.... 4Wd....turbo......delta.


How many climbing walls does dawes own?

[Nibile]

"30 seconds from my house to stanage. cool."

[GCW]

My lats are pumped.

[Pantontino]

On the Jerry tip: don't forget stuff like Psyche'n' Burn E6 6c at Pant Ifan in 81, Oyster and Masterclass 7c+/8a at Pen Trwyn in 83. He also jumped from the lip of Pigeon's Cave into the sea!

And Jerry's Roof and the Barrel Traverse were Johnny's projects, that is until he showed them to Jerry in 89 - small beer for someone who was at the time (as Ru pointed out) a globetrotting sport climbing superstar; not to mention how, along with Moon, he had pushed British bouldering standards to the next level - Crag X anybody?

All that being said, Johnny was still a total visionary wad of the highest order - just not so hot on the steep stuff. Although the Indian Face draws a lot of the attention, we should not forget things like Hardback Thesaurus in Wen Zawn, possible E8 ground up in 88. Impressive stuff!

[Teaboy]

JD was obviously the best in the world at whatever it is he does but what he does is a parochial aspect of the sport unique to to the UK (grit head points and single pitch scary routes on the sea cliffs and mountains) whereas Jerry travelled the globe repeating the worlds hardest routes, often on-sight. He dominated that aspect of the spot for years and was churning out the hardest boulder problems in the UK long after the pack should have caught up. On the other hand people started repeating JDs routes and now every Tom, Dick and Harry has a repeat of JD E8 to their name (although admittedly usually in poorer style). How many have repeated the Ace, Superman, Evolution etc. (ok, ok probably the same number who have repeated the Indian Face, Quarryman, Hardback, Professor etc!!)

All the above is slightly tongue in cheek as they are both exceptional and not deserving of pointless comparisons.

[Pantontino]

On Master's Wall in 83:

Moffatt: "I knew I was climbing better than Redhead so I thought I might stand a chance."

Paul Williams to Moffatt before he set off: "Do this and your name will be in the history books forever."

Moffatt after the ascent: "I got to a certain point where I had this imaginary line, where I knew that the runner below me was going to rip out for sure, and the one below that was too low to stop me anyway, so I paused, shook out for a bit, assessed the situation in what I thought was a logical manner, psyched myself up and said, "Right, I'm not going to die." You've just got to have this insane confidence in your own ability."

[Bubba]

He also jumped from the lip of Pigeon's Cave into the sea!

I watched some scouse kids doing that - they must have been about 15

[Jaspersharpe]

Don't forget Jerry did this.......



And wore these shorts.......



Johnny's amazing climbing achievements pale into insignificance when compared to the shorts.

[Johnny Brown]

JD was obviously the best in the world at whatever it is he does but what he does is a parochial aspect of the sport unique to to the UK (grit head points and single pitch scary routes on the sea cliffs and mountains

The Scoop was hardly a single pitch. Worldwide trad is the heart of the sport, folk seem to forget that with the dominance of sport in europe.
The facts are Jerry was a bit ahead of the pack for a few years, but there was a pack close behind. He may have burnt off the french one year, but didn't Antoine LeM return the favour the next?
Many of Johnny's routes still haven't had a repeat in equal style to his first ascent. Plus he also travelled and burnt folk off, he just didn't crow about it. I didn't notice Jerry being honoured with the front cover of the Yosemite guide? And if you want to talk cars, again Jerry may have looked flash, but I think we all know who was the faster driver...

On Master's Wall in 83:

Moffatt: "I knew I was climbing better than Redhead so I thought I might stand a chance."

Paul Williams to Moffatt before he set off: "Do this and your name will be in the history books forever."

Though Redhead went back and pissed up Master's wall, saying his bolt 'shook with fear on a totally different concept'
which became the Indian Face only three years later and two full grades harder.

[Fiend]

Johnny's amazing climbing achievements pale into insignificance when compared to the shorts.

Wasn't MC Dave just discussing Johnny's tartan tights recently?? Come on, the fashion card, just like the rest, is too close to call!

[Pantontino]

Okay, so MW shied off from the main challenge, but it was still a very ballsy and stylish ascent from Moffatt, and 3 years is a long time, especially at that point in the 80s when standards where rocketing. 2 grades harder, but style wise IF was a headpoint - you almost seemed to have forgotten that JB. Even Redhead didn't agree that it should have been toproped.

And, for the record, sport didn't just dominate in Europe - the yanks fell for it completely.

You don't really believe that Johnny has a comparable record for international ascents do you? If so what exactly are you alluding to? What are these world class repeats that Johnny kept quiet about?

[Bubba]

again Jerry may have looked flash, but I think we all know who was the faster driver...

Driver yes, but rider no

This is the only way to settle it - we need to put them head to head on a track day, both cars and bikes. The victor will be the true man.

[Stubbs]

JD was obviously the best in the world at whatever it is he does but what he does is a parochial aspect of the sport unique to to the UK (grit head points and single pitch scary routes on the sea cliffs and mountains) whereas Jerry travelled the globe repeating the worlds hardest routes, often on-sight.

I agree, Moffat's name often comes up in interviews in US magazines when people talk about their heros (along with Malcolm Smith), but I haven't seen Johnny's name come up yet.  Jerry had renown on a world stage - did Johnny?

[Jaspersharpe]

Johnny's amazing climbing achievements pale into insignificance when compared to the shorts.

Wasn't MC Dave just discussing Johnny's tartan tights recently?? Come on, the fashion card, just like the rest, is too close to call!

If you had seen them in the flesh Fiend (see above)...........I'm still mentally scarred.

[Johnny Brown]

but it was still a very ballsy and stylish ascent from Moffatt, and 3 years is a long time, especially at that point in the 80s when standards where rocketing. 2 grades harder, but style wise IF was a headpoint -

My point was in the early eighties Jerry was trying desperately to be 'The Master' with two climbs named Master's wall and Master's edge. Master's edge was climbed ground up by the man Jerry was trying to leave behind before he'd even had a chance to complete his headpoint. Master's wall was quickly repeated and revealed to not be all he'd claimed it was. Both rather backfired on his big mouth and its no coincidence no one has produced such arrogant route names since.

2 grades harder, but style wise IF was a headpoint

I didn't realise Jerry had onsighted Master's, I thought there had been abseil inspection. Which is how Johnny practised Indian Face, not by toproping. I'm not in favour of either but when repeats utilise repeated toprope ascents its worth making the distinction.

I wouldn't agree three years is a long time ever, as every year goes by it amazes me more how much Johnny did just in 1986.
I'm not alluding to any unknown international ascents by Johnny, just suggesting you don't get on the cover of the guide to the most famous climbing area in the world without some degree of local respect.

Jerry was the best for a few years as Ron faded out and before Ben took over. Yes, he did it on a worldwide stage and made sure everyone knew. But he didn't change people's perceptions of the possible in the way Johnny did, nor was he ever as far ahead of his peers as Dawes was on grit, slate and mountain in 1986.

[GCW]

JB, that is a very well written argument.  Well done.
   What he said

[SA Chris]

How many years generally constitute a "generation" anyway?

[al]

Al, why did you have to start the Johnny vs Jerry debate

as was said bubbs, its down to you stirring it, mine was just an innocent post 
no doubt jerry was stronger and excelled in more styles, and changed climbing standards generally - JD for me though, was ahead of his time and a visionary no question, like 'the human spider' and not many others.......

[Teaboy]

The Scoop was hardly a single pitch.

That E6 that Tom nearly on-sighted as a young lad?

I'm not denegrating either the route or climbers here, just playing devil's advocate.

Worldwide trad is the heart of the sport, folk seem to forget that with the dominance of sport in europe.

Not by me it ain't but I do agree with you, I think that is how JD came to be cononised here in the UK because no one has any idea what was going on abroad at the time. I've seen pictures of people soloing 7cs at the top of the Verdon Gorge in the late 80s. With JM it was much more transparent where he was in world terms because of the universality of the grade systems and the fact that he went to everyone else's back yard.

The facts are Jerry was a bit ahead of the pack for a few years, but there was a pack close behind. He may have burnt off the french one year, but didn't Antoine LeM return the favour the next?

Same could be said for JD, Dunne put up New Staesman in 1987 and did Partheon before Dawes.

Many of Johnny's routes still haven't had a repeat in equal style to his first ascent.

Agree

he also travelled and burnt folk off, he just didn't crow about it.

Examples?

I didn't notice Jerry being honoured with the front cover of the Yosemite guide?

You're not really suggesting that Dawes was more influential in the states than Jerry are you?

But he didn't change people's perceptions of the possible in the way Johnny did

I'd say Seb Grieve did more of that by showing that with application and a real desire you could climb a grit E8 if you wanted it bad enough. Simple desire and a moment of madness will not get you up the Ace.

Obvioulsy I'm not denying the influence or ability of JD, he was imense. I'm just joining in the debate because its better than work

[Somebody's Fool]

Would you believe it.  After declaring Moffatt arrogant, JB comes out with this gem:

you don't get on the cover of the guide to the most famous climbing area in the world without some degree of local respect.

[dave]

you blatantly do. With the greatest respect to Mike Lea, he was hardly "Mr Froggatt" was he? Can anyone even remember the name of the guy on the cover of the 1989 roaches guide?

[grimer]

yeah i noticed that one