[account_inactive]

Some straight talking advice from Auzzy Dr Julian Saunders

http://www.athlon.com.au/articles/r&i_dodgyelbow.pdf

[Paul B]

Some straight talking advice from Auzzy Dr Julian Saunders

You weren't kidding were you? Good find.

[Nibile]

its very interesting, saved on my pc, and will go under test tonite.
thanks.

[dave]

that's hilarious & Co.

I'm tempted to develop an elbow injury just so I can try it all out.

[Dr T]

its very interesting, saved on my pc, and will go under test tonite.
thanks.

Nibs - did it help??

[The Sausage]

Someone else banging the tendititis/tendinosis/golfers'/tennis bullshit drum. I'm telling you, it most likely comes from the shoulder (Unless you have a definite point of tenderness on the epicondyle).

[Dr T]

(Unless you have a definite point of tenderness on the epicondyle).

Somewhat suprisingly (from all I've read) yes I do....
very specific very obvious....

am I the exception that proves the rule??

[highrepute]

this might have worked for me as I thought I had very specific pain, but while resting I also did loads of shoulder work - so some more useless anecdotal evidence for you there.

Can anyone explain how Mr Saunders is allowed the call himself Doctor?

[Dr T]

It's interesting reading through all the different stuff written on this on the net.
Actually I agree with Sausage about refered pain, having had a disc go in my lower back; bulging to start with then mis-manipulated by a chiro and eventually it herniated badly requiring a micro-discetomy.
I remember the pain in the outside of the knee, as discussed earlier it was a pian that was v. difficult to pinpoint.
What I have in my elbow is much more specific, located just on the bone, and quite different in feel leading me to the idea of it actually being tendonitous. Having dug back in my memories I can even remember tweeking it but, I did the usual - strap it up and tried to climb through.
Worth it in a way as it involved the Font trip but taking the time to do the rehab now (which is dull but....)

Doing the basic exercises, stretches and icing - guess it's wait and see - any ideas in length of rehab time??
When should "light" climbing be introduced etc?

[highrepute]

Doing the basic exercises, stretches and icing - guess it's wait and see - any ideas in length of rehab time??
When should "light" climbing be introduced etc?

I had what I would, and physio diagnosed as, very specific pain in my elbows and as such classic golfers. Was both elbows, very painful when aggravated and had it for a year before I seeked treatment. I climbed from the very start of my treatment, but only very lightly and only when I didn't experience pain, within two months I was climbing back at full intensity and within a further 2 months I had no symptons. my treatment was as described in althon article.

However, I have since come to the opinion, mainly from reading on here and talking to physio friends that there was likely some shoulder/neck/back (who knows) problem associated and at the time I started a whole load of exercises aimed at helping these and changed my desk set-up (at work and home) and basically questioned lots of activities that may be affecting me, so this may have helped my recovery. I also think that posture is a huge factor here and I've never address this properly but certain phsyios would target this for these types of problems.

Anyway I answered way more questions than you asked and all I've written comes with a i'm not an expert disclaimer but I hope it is in someway useful

[Dr T]

Well.......
 Had some physio on the forearm, decent sports massage dealt with the neutrological symptoms so no more pins and needles/numbness almost straight away 
Also had an ultra sound scan on the elbow -  scan showed up some level 4/5 damage (0-no damage, 10 completely torn) which is not good but is easily treatable with physio excercises (the ones shown in the original article) which should sort the collogen back into shape and close up the micro-tears and fluid pockets. A month maybe a little more but good news is I can still climb in the meantime so long as I'm sensible! Interestingly, and against my initial instinct, I was told to up the weight til I really felt it (in fact doubling the used weight) - so it's  for me.
Two days into doing the exercises properly and I can do sets of 5 pulls on the big beastmaker slots without any pain - not much I know but big progress over just one hurting (+ I stopped at five so as to not push it). This is encouraging, as is highrepute's tale so finger's crossed....

[highrepute]

- so it's  for me.

Nice one, all sounds super positive!

out of interest how much weight are you using? Think I used 7kg, for the eccentric curls, but I am a light weight.

[Dr T]

out of interest how much weight are you using? Think I used 7kg, for the eccentric curls, but I am a light weight.

3 sets of 15 reps at 6kg for both the eccentric curls and the eccentric wrist twists twice a day at the moment... that's enough for now....

[ghisino]

started to have some golfer's elbow problems a couple of months ago.

after trying to manage it  with icing/massage/nsaid for 3 weeks i had a complete week of rest, started to wear my gf's arm-warmer while working on the pc, and got  theraband flex bar to do basically the same exercise as above at home (every morning, every night).

seems on the way to total recovery : minor pain only when i do more thn 2 consecutive climbing days and i put lots of slopers/compression in it.

voila the reverse curl with the theraband thing


(red is light, i got the green guessing the red would be too soft for a climber, and i think i made a good call)


btw
somewhere else i've read that eccentric contractions re used to "clean" damaged fibers. Totally uncorrelated to elbow injuries.

[Dexter]

how effective are those theraband thingys? also does anyone know a good place to buy them?

[ghisino]

effectiveness : guess it doesn't change a lot from eccentric curls with a dumbell.  got it instead of weights because of similar cost and more practical in a small flat.

bought it online.

[Dr T]

One other thing from the scan that interested me (maybe it's common knowledge but I didn't know it)......

We all know that ligaments don't have they're own blood supply hence one of the reasons for the healing process being in an equal time frame to continental drift.

Well there's a blood vessel in my injured ligament. Apparently it's a common pathology - the body grows a blood vessel(s) to the damaged ligament and when said ligament is healed blood vessel waves bye bye. Hence the presence of such blood vessels is a diagnostic tool - cool eh?

(yes I am a science geek....)

[gremlin]

I've had encouraging results from doing the Jovarek Dumbell Complex 1 in conjunction with (but not at the same time!) three different types of pushup i.e. hands close together, shoulder width apart and finally as wide as possible.

[Iesu]

i was shown that brachioradialis stretch by some Bishop locals, seemed to help at the time.

[Dexter]

One other thing from the scan that interested me (maybe it's common knowledge but I didn't know it)......

We all know that ligaments don't have they're own blood supply hence one of the reasons for the healing process being in an equal time frame to continental drift.

Well there's a blood vessel in my injured ligament. Apparently it's a common pathology - the body grows a blood vessel(s) to the damaged ligament and when said ligament is healed blood vessel waves bye bye. Hence the presence of such blood vessels is a diagnostic tool - cool eh?

(yes I am a science geek....)

so does this mean that if the blood flow were increased then healing process would speed up?

[Dr T]

One other thing from the scan that interested me (maybe it's common knowledge but I didn't know it)......

We all know that ligaments don't have they're own blood supply hence one of the reasons for the healing process being in an equal time frame to continental drift.

Well there's a blood vessel in my injured ligament. Apparently it's a common pathology - the body grows a blood vessel(s) to the damaged ligament and when said ligament is healed blood vessel waves bye bye. Hence the presence of such blood vessels is a diagnostic tool - cool eh?

(yes I am a science geek....)

so does this mean that if the blood flow were increased then healing process would speed up?

 More oxygen and nutrients to fuel the repair process so yep....

[Steve R]

Someone else banging the tendititis/tendinosis/golfers'/tennis bullshit drum. I'm telling you, it most likely comes from the shoulder (Unless you have a definite point of tenderness on the epicondyle).

If it's possible to do so on a forum, any chance you could outline what to do to your shoulders to make the pain go away?

I've been battling with elbow beef for getting on two years now.  I'd love a silver bullet in the shoulder department (or any department) so I could finally rid myself of the spectre of elbow doom.   And it would also save me a fair bit of time spent (or possibly mis-spent?) doing the typically advised things like stretching, Dr. Julien stlye dumb bell wrist actuationz and press ups and stuff daily... FWIW, my pain/discomfort/bane isn't really centred on the epicondyle itself but more vaguely just below it on the forearm side of the joint - the usual spot as I understand it...
Any help much appreciated, cheers

[Steve R]

Ok, just searched with the 'site:ukbouldering' thing in google and ended up at your epic, informed and informative response from a couple of years ago; http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?topic=10847.0
Which answers my last question with a resounding no.
To the physiological punter it does feel rather counter-intuitive that stablising shoulder joints (which don't hurt and feel stable) will sort elbows out but there you go.  The quest continues.