[unclesomebody]

highball 7a? what nonsense. will we still think that when it claims it's first victim

Has Tomahawk been upgraded to E8 since foley broke his ankle? I didn't realise that's how it worked. Someone, perhaps you, should alert the rest of the world that after someone gets injured on a boulder problem it should be upgraded to something on the E scale.

Normally your posts are both humorous and truthful, in this case it is humorous and completely retarded.

[mini]

My view of a highball, is a probelm where (when using a spotter or two and a couple of pads) you are likely to fall off at any point and walk away with (probability not withstanding) only a dented pride. For me, Thumbalia does not fall within that catagory. Okay, the holds on the headwall are all postive and can be reversed to relative safety, but man, that top move is a pop and a heart-flutterer for anyone < 6ft!

Maybe problems in Font and The States are higher than Thumb', and given bouldering grades, but that is the local style and the grades reflect that. Thumb' and Cornelious are routes on a typically trad crag, the only difference is the lack of gear resulting in both routes being solo's. Does this automatically make them highballs instead of routes? I think not.

As for The Pride being more fluttery than Thumb' 

[unclesomebody]

My view of a highball, is a probelm where (when using a spotter or two and a couple of pads) you are likely to fall off at any point and walk away with (probability not withstanding) only a dented pride. For me, Thumbalia does not fall within that catagory. Okay, the holds on the headwall are all postive and can be reversed to relative safety, but man, that top move is a pop and a heart-flutterer for anyone < 6ft!

Maybe problems in Font and The States are higher than Thumb', and given bouldering grades, but that is the local style and the grades reflect that. Thumb' and Cornelious are routes on a typically trad crag, the only difference is the lack of gear resulting in both routes being solo's. Does this automatically make them highballs instead of routes? I think not.

As for The Pride being more fluttery than Thumb' 

No Offense mini, but I don't think you have a clue what highball means in that case. The description you have written above is probably a good one for general non highball bouldering. Highballing is exactly that. It's high! Just look at the things Kevin Jorgeson has climbed in Bishop, or the things Zangerl has climbed in Austria/Switzerland, or the things at Sablibum in Font. They are HIGH. That's the difference between bouldering and highballing, and that is why there is a distinction in name.

This could easily be a case of tomaydo tomato, but I'm more inclined to say it's a case of people not willing to call a highball a highball.

One more thing. Things like Samson have become highballs with the advent of bigger and better pads. This is inevitable. People who are holding on to their lofty E grades are only doing so because they are closer to the top end of the scale and thus it's easier to have a good old ego wank. Going out and doing a 7B+ boulder problem isn't very impressive, but telling someone you've done an E8 is still revered as more worthy. Just the sad remains of an old institution of thought that luckily only remains in place in a small part of a small country!

Also, No offence to anyone in particular. This is not a personal attack, if it was, your name would be here.

[nik at work]

Whilst I do see your point Uncle surely you would concede that to walk up to <insert name of suitable potential highball> without a collection of modern mats and spotters can make these things a very different proposition.
I imagine you wouldn't claim to have ground-upped E7 on this occasion (I don't know whether you have at other times). However I maintain that someone could still ground-up/on-sight this route at E7 (or whatever the final grade settles at). The two gradings (and I suppose the two 'routes') can co-exist on the same piece of rock, it is the approach that is different.
Or maybe I'm just a sad old-timer clinging to my ego wanks....

[GCW]

I hear someone used 10 mats on Doug.  Highball font 7a?  {runs and hides}

Imagine you have a 10m font 7c, with a flat landing.  With pads it's a safe-ish, highball font 7c.  So without mats is it a less-safe, highball 7c, or an E7?  Transfer the same route to a bad landing.  Is it now E7 or highball 7c?

There's a gray area between bouldering and routes.  Always has been, but with improving technology of mats, better preparation, less safe stuff has been done as a "highball".

At the end of the day, my definition of highball is something I shat me pants on.  Although, nowadays they tend to be problems above 3 metres 

[dave]

An E7 with pads underneath it is still an E7. E7 means that if you walked up to it onsight with no mats then this is how hard it would feel, regardless of how you actually did it. Same as if you toprope an E7, the route it still an E7. What I'm saying is its the route that is graded, not each individual ascent, which I think is a point that some people miss, and try to overcomplicate in this (and many other cases) case.

This perceived need to grade ascents rather than routes seems a bit of an ego crutch, like we need a number to validate ourselves. An E7 with mats underneath does not become an E4. In the same way that soloing a geared E1 does not make it an E4. Or doing an E4 in terrible condition or with the wrong sequence does not make it E7.

[unclesomebody]

Dave, your point illustrates ever so well the failing of the trad grading system. It's rather funny actually. If I substituted font 7A with E7 in your post it would all make perfect sense. An E grade is one that takes into account the relevant danger of a route, and this is part of the British Trad grading system. I'm not proposing a vast overhaul of this system as it works alright most of the time. However, E7 does not describe the actual difficulty of the route, and this is where the problem becomes more complex.

If we take the case of Thumbelina, the british trad grading system is suggesting that it be graded for an Onsight ascent with no pads. This is because of how the system began, and where it came from. The problem lies in the fact that it makes no sense to grade a short solo for an onsight ascent with no pads in this day and age. I really think it's time to "get with the times".  Is Thumbelina more similar to Master's Wall or to Renegade Master? Today, it makes no sense to approach these short solo's without pads in order to make them more dangerous. This is effectively what is happening. If I went to Bishop to attempt one of the highball lines there and went with no pads people would think I was stupid. They wouldn't think I had big cahonies, or give me extra credit for it. It would simply be a case of making the route more dangerous than necessary which doesn't seem very sensible to me. Why grade Thumbelina for a style of ascent that it will likely never get, when a highball boulder grade would prove far more information, seem more inviting and allow more people to enjoy it.

At the end of the day, everyone is climbing the same bit of rock regardless of how you choose to grade it. My thoughts are that grades should convey as much information as possible about the actual difficulty of climbing a piece of rock, ESPECIALLY in the case when there is no rope and no gear. I realise that other people may think differently. All this really isn't a problem for me personally, because I have never done a first ascent or had to grade something for everyone else.

GCW and Nik - Valid points. I'm just of the school of thought that you should make things as safe as you possibly can when you need to. Perhaps this is what happens when you spend too much time bouldering.

I'm genuinely sorry for turning this into a grading debate, and I really wish I hadn't said anything now. The route's at Ina's Rock are good and everyone should go and enjoy them!

[GCW]

GCW and Nik - Valid points. I'm just of the school of thought that you should make things as safe as you possibly can when you need to. Perhaps this is what happens when you spend too much time bouldering.

Unc, I don't argue with that at all.  Like I say, if I get scared it's a solo. If not it's bouldering.
If I put a ton of spikey rocks under West Side Story before I do it without pads, can I claim E7?  No, that's just silly.
And I'd have the same opinion about routes/problems that are eminently made safer by using pads.
Which is what you are saying. 

At the end of the day it's just grades, but I'd still vote for risk reduction whenever possible, mainly 'cos I'm a big wuss 

[dave]

Firstly, theres no reason you can't have an adjecteval grade AND a font grade. The current BMC guide in effect do this already with E-grades and V-grades coexisting on some problem/routes.

Secondly, you need to grade things from a certain baseline, hence grading for an ascent onsight with no pads - even if a route never gets done like this. And I'll tell you for why; because its as near as we're going to get to an absolute baseline. If you start to say grade stuff for doing with pads (which would in many ways be a good idea) then you've got to define a standard mat. A single Pod mat inside 6 months old, used no more than 3 times a week, with 2 spotters? but what if you turn up with 6 giant moons, 6 spotters and an inflatable mat? you'll have to use your imagination and common sense to subtract some relative danger....which is incidentally exactly what you have to do when turning up to a non-mat graded trad highball and stick your choice of mat underneath. There isn't and can never be a meaningful standard of mat for grading (not that it won't stop people from trying I'm sure) so you might as well grade from a level playing field, and have both bouldering and route grades.

(This is a bit similar in a way to the way routes are graded. although its probably unspoken and unwritten, most routes are graded these days assuming the general rack of nuts 1-10, cams 0-4 and whatever hexes you need. Route that generally require specific kit like RPs, robert ne neros, massive cams or skyhoos, pegs etc will generally specify in the description or in the guide intro somewhere. I see this as analagous to the no mat thing. you could try and define a standardised mat but I think the range of matting options and the effect this has on a fall is greater than with trad gear. for example some falls you'd be fine with a brand new Pod mat but probably break your ankles through the same mat 3 years later. in contrast, if you fall off a route onto a #5 nut on a single rope it ain't going to matter if its the latest anodised nut and ultralight rope, or a furry 11mm rope you found in a skip and that old moac nut you got out of 20foot crack, you're still going to survive. (obviously this is a gross simplification with obvious glaring exceptions, but you get the drift.))

[GCW]

Dave, I can also see where you're coming from. 
If a problem is font 7b we know how hard it will be.  Danger isn't a major factor.
Brit Trad grades are for an onsight, matless ascent.  Fair enough.
But for a problem/route that is never done matless, is there any point in giving it a trad grade?  Why not just say highball font xx?
Everyone has a brain to judge a route/problem with.  If it's clearly a death-on-a-stick-solo, an E-grade is probably more appropriate.  if it can be well padded and spotted, do so and take the font grade.

If you like going out and soloing hard routes on your own, on sight, with no pads, I'll be happy for you take to take the E-grade, you fucking nutter you

[sammo]

My thoughts are that grades should convey as much information as possible about the actual difficulty of climbing a piece of rock

When you say "highball 7A" I understand that to mean a reasonably bold 7A climber would stand a good chance of ground-upping this climb, above a few pads and with a spotter or two. Do you think that's the case? I'm genuinely interested as I think Thumbelina looks awesome, but 7A is hard for me.

I think I'm right in saying that everyone that's done it so far has a solid background of either hard bouldering, hard trad or both. Is it perhaps only "highball 7A" once you have the 8A strength to make everything controlled? 

Surely the most appropriate grade is the one that gives people the best indication of whether they can climb it or not. It would be a bit perverse to have a highball 7A that 7A climbers can't touch, or an E4 that only gets done by E7 leaders.

Anyway, Ina’s Rock looks sweet. Good effort to all those that have done Thumbelina, and thanks for the inspiring photos.

[Fiend]

I don't think there's as much of a problem with grading as people want to think there is.

English grades work well to describe the difficulty and danger for a standard style of ascent.

The bouldering grade (with or without highball suffix) works well to describe difficult and some danger for another, now-standard style of ascent.

There's no qualitive distinction between the two as grades and no need for ego-wanking unless people really want to force those unneccessary issues into the arena.

Both combined work well to give the best information about a route / problem / highball / micro-route (especially given it's a grey area and especially since two....species of climber will be approaching such climbs from different directions).

Simple yes??

Incidentally, Font 7a = V6 = solid 6b = E6-ish as a solo?? So it all makes sense...

[Jim]

Uncle, just cos you soloed a route doesn't make you an authority on declaring it a highball.
Does this now mean every route that you solo will be downgraded to a boulder problem and given a font grade?
Ask Johnny what font grade he thinks goliaths groove is - 5+?

[Somebody's Fool]

I assume this is the sort of thing Keith's big-bollocked European chums dole out bouldering grades to:



It makes you wonder if anything south of the Shelterstone deserves an E grade at all. On this evidence, I'd suggest not.

[webbo]

daves right with you need to describe things as highball 7a with one pad.not everybody goes out in a big team armed with upteen mats.at queens crag in the county there various stuff called highballs which are clearly routes,however they be highballs if you find the large gym mat thats hidden in a crevice under the crag.
will we all need to start hiring helichopters to fly in sufficent padding.

[dave]

I assume this is the sort of thing Keith's big-bollocked European chums dole out bouldering grades to:



It makes you wonder if anything south of the Shelterstone deserves an E grade at all. On this evidence, I'd suggest not.

basically if someone falls off a route once and doesn't die then its a highball. Anyone for widdop wall?

(i've been up to that block in the above photo, its pretty fucking massive chunk of stone. makes bishop look like burbage south boulders.)

[BenF]

Obviously a controversial current subject.  Here's another big grade debate but this time focusing upon a much more serious proposition...  http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=321574&v=1  You really couldn't justify giving a highball grade to the monster of a route that's involved in that thread surely?  I can't believe there's even suggestions that it could be bouldered out.    Total recklessness...

[Jaspersharpe]

Amazing.

[andy popp]

I'm no longer amazed by anything on UKC after a thread the other week arguing Sharma's Clark Mountain route was artificially making things harder by not belaying halfway and was thus an eliminate. This was taken very seriously.

[BenF]

I'm no longer amazed by anything on UKC after a thread the other week arguing Sharma's Clark Mountain route was artificially making things harder by not belaying halfway and was thus an eliminate. This was taken very seriously.

After there had been an argument as to whether the word "send" should be used in a news article...

[grimer]

Uncle, maybe it is tomaydo tomato. I just guess from reading what people write that for a lot of them, using a trad grade tells them a lot about certain routes. It is how they understand grades. I have never done / tried Thumbelina so i have no idea, but I have seen it, and for a route that size, whatever the technical difficulty, my mind would probably work in terms of 'E'. That's just how I would compare it to other similar climbs. Maybe it's being older, but if I am at that height, I feel like I am soloing, not bouldering. Perhaps being told that the climbing is 7a would be a very useful extra piece of info.

The E grade is useful to me, as it has been how similar routes that I have done have been graded - The Alliance, Chip Shop Brawl, Art Nouveau, Nick Nack Paddywack - they have all been about Highball 7a, but they stacked up differently in terms of how hard they were for me overall. And that order, interestingly, corresponds quick tightly with their E grades.

I really don't think that people are giveing E grades for wank purposes. I don't think Andi was strutting around Leek with an E7 badge on for a week. I think he and Johnny might have felt that the number represented their experience. I'm sure they would both be willing to accept that for you, it was a 7a boulder problem.

I'm sorry this was turned into a grading debate too. Having seen Thumbelina, and knowing what it meant to Andi to climb it, this thread makes it seem like the route has now been pissed all over.

[nik at work]

Well said Grimer.
If I were to try this route I would do it as a route solo and as such the E7 grade would be most meaningful to me. It just seems to high to be called bouldering from my perspective. But then I started as a trad climber and have come into bouldering.
It would seem uncle that you are a boulderer through and through (although I know you have in the past done routes I think we can both agree that you are essentially a boulderer). As such it is unsurprising that you find the highball 7a description more "useful".
I don't think anyone is pissing all over the route. It has had several repeats in the last week, doubtless more than any other E7 I imagine, by some very good climbers. Which is brilliant. I imagine Andi is really psyched that so many people want to travel to a relative backwater to climb one of his routes, I know I would be. The subsequent debate is interesting.

Now if anybody wants to go to Rivelin and sort out the upturned tree stump landing below Thats My Lot to give another popular and high quality highball at a relative backwater then you have my blessing. God knows it could do with some interest and repeats....

[a dense loner]

good knowledge jim. uncle is clearly out of his mind

i can't think of anything humorous to say

[account_inactive]

Ned is a beast, but doesn't flash E7s

[Baron]

Bang on Grimer.