[cider nut]

I feel really inadequate with my climbing at the moment.  Last June I was pushing HVS but recently I occasionally find myself struggling up Severe's even though I never had a problem with them before, or getting 'the fear' when seconding something as if I'm a beginner again.  My climbing is really inconsistent and unpredictable which is very offputting - If I can struggle on Severe's some days, and feel fine on much harder stuff on others, how can I know what to climb next time I go out?  The other weekend I went to the Llanberis slate quarries and climbed really well, onsighting an HVS and all but 3 metres of a high in the grade E1 5b, and I felt really brave, but it didn't last.  This weekend mostly went well, but last Wednesday I felt very scared on a steep Severe crack line even though my gear was good.  I also did some fun and satisfying bouldering in font at easter, including on slabs which don't suit me, but I got nervous seconding a slab at Helsby.

I know I'm technically capable, and I know it's not related to smaller external factors like not having eaten enough that day or something or I would have had these problems in previous years, so I'd say it's purely psychological.  But I can't pin it down more specifically than that.  Does anybody have any thoughts?  Firstly about what my problem is, and secondly about how to fix it?

I'm dubious about what people will be able to say to help when they don't know me or my climbing, but I remain hopeful!

To give a bit of background:

Grades wise: I started getting into climbing in summer 2004 having been out with friends a few times over the previous few years, then started leading in August 2004.  I led my first VS in April 2005, then my first (soft touch) HVS in May 06.  Yes, grades are important to me, but they're not why I climb, they're just intermediate aims.  I climb because it's a personal challenge and you can't blame the rock if it goes wrong.  If it does go wrong, the way you react teaches you about yourself (although I must admit I haven't used many of those lessons productively!!)

Pyshological wise (although still with grades for reference):  I didn't know about the ethics of climbing until I discovered UKC, before then I'd always said I wouldn't lead, but when I found out that's what you're meant to do it appealed to my competitive nature, so I was excited to give it a go.  It took me quite a while to get comfortable leading Severe, there was a bit of a mental battle as I knew I could second VS's and felt like leading put me back at square one, but I eventually got there.  I skipped over HS and did a couple of VS's, but did more VS's than any other grade before I decided to move up.  I'd wanted to lead my first HVS by the end of 2005 but didn't make it.  , although I did one in May 06.  In broad terms, and with a couple of exceptions like a great relationship, 2006 was a disaster for me - not just in climbing but personally.  I didn't sort myself out until Sept/Oct when I moved to Stoke.  I carried on climbing every weekend over the summer but didn't have any motivation to lead so mostly belayed, then when I got my motivation back I climbed most weekends over winter but only got half way up routes then backed off as I couldn't feel my fingers!

This year I'm pretty psyched, but I'm all over the place, I can climb well one day and pants the next.  It doesn't appear to be linked to rock type (except I always have felt more confident on slate) or partners.  So far this year I've climbed far more than any previous year at the same point, as I can get out in the evenings as well as weekends.

[LucyB]

Hi cider,

sweeping sexist statement no.1:

Generally, birds seem to take their issues with them when they climb - stuff often being in the back of your mind, and affecting how you climb.

Men seem much more able to use climbing as a complete 'off' switch, concentrating solely on the climbing and blocking everything else out.

As a result, it's possible that if you've had a 'wobbly' time emotionally, it may be coming out in you feeling a bit 'wobbly' when you climb.

(I'm assuming you're female from previous posts?)

My advice would be to not give yourself a hard time over it, just remember that you climb because you enjoy it! The competitive element is great, but don't allow your perceived lack of progress to cloud the good stuff you get from it.

You are still relatively new to the sport, and you've progressed very quickly. Just spend some time consolidating, and having fun. You'll get there!

Lu

[abarro81]

chill. its all about the chillin. go slacklining too, it puts you in that focused but totally zoned out at the same time mind frame which i love for trad when you know you're gonna hit the floor. personally i'd say you should make yourself lead stuff (maybe safe stuff though if your climbing's erratic) most of the time even when you dont want to. you cant push yourself uber-hard on trad day in day out and you need days on easy stuff, but lead on those days too. if you want to wimp out and just second stuff or lead an easy route then make yourself get on something harder and dont let the fear get the better of you.

[Falling Down]

I put this down to a couple of things.....

1 - You haven't been climbing that long.  I could easily substitute "Last June I was pushing HVS but recently I occasionally find myself struggling up Severe's even though I never had a problem with them before, or getting 'the fear' when seconding something as if I'm a beginner again." with "I  Last June I was pushing E3 but recently I occasionally find myself struggling up HVS's even though I never had a problem with them before, or getting 'the fear' when seconding something as if I'm a beginner again.  " 

Seconding is always scary... all that space below your feet with no rope and gear between you and the ground - I'm happier on the sharp end most of the time.

2 - Your (climbing) partner who's propensity for introspection and climbing performance related anxiety knows no bounds - it must be catching....

Lighten up Cider Nut and just go out and enjoy it...

[moose]

I've personally found that one of the best encouragements for confronting the challenges of leading stuff near my limit is to get a bit train-spottery about it: compile tick-lists and really look into particular routes you want to do.  I love trad but don't get to do much of it (I'm almost purely a boulderer by necessity rather than choice) and always feel very underprepared and unfamiliar with placing gear or actually being on rock for more than 3 moves.  What often gives me the push to overcome my fears and misgivings is generally that the routes I try are ones I really want to do: classics I have read about or have been recommended or were done by someone I admire (I'm still after my first Ron Fawcet tick!).   

It's a bit puerile but the prospect of ticking a route from Hard / Extreme Rock has in the past given me an "urge" that overcame excuses like fatigue and fear.  E.g. I pretty much broke into the E2 grade with Darius at High Torr - a reputedly hard climb for the grade and one that I was utterly unsuited to (a 50m route for someone who only ever climbs 3 move boulder problems) because the look of the line gave me so much mojo that it overcame ... well... sense!  Try to get onto stuff you really want to climb - even if the reasons are a bit daft.. maybe compile a "dream" ticklist and try and work your way up it. It might just give you that tiny push that allows you to ignore the doubts that hold you back; you'll soon find yourself having to recompile your list and add harder stuff to it!

Oh and experience of bouldering hard problems helps too.  Telling yourself that the hard moves on a trad route are "sub warm-up" in relation to your bouldering can be very reassuring.  Just ignore the voices in your head that mention unfortunate truths about the difference between worked and on-sight moves, the incredible weight of a trad rack, and the slight inconvenience of your arms being completely blown after spending 20 minutes trying to faff in a wire placement that has since fallen out!

[Fiend]

2 - Your (climbing) partner who's propensity for introspection and climbing performance related anxiety knows no bounds - it must be catching....

Ha! I see that, you bugger  Although, you are, of course, right 

[Paz]

If you are feeling shit then getting up something anything anyway is personally satisfying.  Otherwise I think an appreciation of
having a good fight can help.  I like watching sport to get psyched, so this is kind of like Macenroe's Winning Ugly concept.  You do anything you have to.  Sacrifice style for the tick.

Don't back off until you have a damn good reason to do so - go up and have a look what you're backing off of or the whole exercise was pointless.
There was a Fliss Butler article from ages ago about women's climbing, but I think you can use hormones as an excuse what ever your sex is - a friend of mine who doesn't realise he's a damn good climber was discussing taking testosterone supplements!  In jest I hope, as that's a lot of piss taking for anyone to deal with so just get on with it.  If you're not climbing a route that's totally safe then it's a head route, and most of the things in your head I think you can put down to the route or conditions.  Severe's and VS's of the same sort can be just as tiring as E1s and E3s, it's just that the holds are smaller.  If I climbed a 40m vertical ladder stopping every so often to place gear, I'd be out of breath.  I'm continually surprised by how infrequently you get an absense of ledges, jugs and bomber runners on E5s and E6s.  Even then it's helpful to establish what your cragging grade is, that you can onsight any route of, as your steady reliable base which might well be severe, then work upwards from there.

I very rarely manage to chill out and zone in as ab says, so other than that I recommend a misplaced sense of your own invincibility or some brief recklessness, or just not thinking about things that aren't constructive.

I definitely think that that Rock Warrior's way shit isn't the be all and end all, I actually think it's distracting. 

Final tip is Kareoke.  Like Kiss FM it's the song that's in your head.

[andy popp]

To use a big word, habituation is the key. Getting used to it. I have always been much stronger psychologically than physically but even when climbing a lot I always found that after even a small lay off I had to reaccustom myself to handling risk (real or perceived). Now, coming back from two years of almost no climbing my 'head' has almost completely gone. Dropping my grade (very dramatically) and getting out more recently over the last few weeks has seen some signs of recovery. I think bouldering by itself is a bad idea, it can lead to marked discomfort in any environment that isn't manifestly risk free. Getting stronger is not bad in itself but is no way sufficient. I was weak as fuck when at my psychological strongest.

[cider nut]

Thanks all for the comments so far.

LucyA - Interesting thoughts (yes, I'm female), and you're allowed to make sexist statements as another female (well, I'm assuming you are too!)  I'm not sure if my climbing issues can be related to previous personal ones, as I've been feeling on top of everything since October.  I suppose it's possible, as the time inbetween was winter, so although I found my feet emotionally, maybe I haven't found my feet with climbing again yet.  I have climbed quite a lot so far this year though, more than in previous years as I said, so that throws doubt on the theory again?

abarro81 - I have a slackline, but I get a bit bored on it because I never improve!  Plus I couldn't take it to the crag, as if I was slacklining and others were climbing, I'd just want to climb!  :S

Falling Down - "Your (climbing) partner who's propensity for introspection and climbing performance related anxiety knows no bounds - it must be catching"  LOL  Fair comment, and something I've actually considered, and even mentioned it to him.  It could account for climbing a lot less smoothly, but surely can't be the complete answer for my inconsistent days out?  Although he was present on most of the days I got scared, and was absent on my brave days.  Hmmm.  (Who are you by the way, can't tell from the username?  or haven't we met?)

moose - I have lists already, but whether I do the routes on them is still entirely down to how I feel on the day.

Paz - I'm a bit confused what your point is?  As for the backing off thing: I normally only back off if I'm freezing cold, otherwise I'm pretty stubbon and continue, but in bad style (mentally more than physically)

andy popp - I've been out climbing far more this year than in any previous year though?

[abarro81]

i didnt mean going slacklining at the crag - more going lining in general as something fun to do that also help tune your head to being in a nice state of mind.. also, climb with people who have good heads - they'll chill you out a lot more on the routes.
paz - who was talking about taking testosterone? anyone i know?
 :off:3 of us may come back to brizzle for a short day on sat as i need to be back in ox by 7 - fancy unknown/upper wall for the day?

[andy popp]

Regularity and frequency are important but its also about going back to starting points (almost), small steps and small victories. I was thinking about this and I think expectation is the death of climbing well (by which I mean fluidly, competently, and in a relaxed way irrespective of grade) for most people. Forget expectations. I had a good evening on Friday, partly because at the start of the session I climbed very well (see above) on a route that is very easy for me, which I've done loads of times and on which I never struggle. It was enough to set me up.

[cider nut]

A fair comment, but it hasn't occurred to me to go back to starting points, and not sure it would even after your suggestion because a) even when I lost motivation I never totally stopped climbing, and b) I'm still climbing as hard as before, just on the days inbetween I'm climbing pants!  Maybe I need to check where abouts I'm consolidated, but I hate the thought of a backwards step, even if it's in order to go forward...

[Falling Down]

>but I hate the thought of a backwards step, even if it's in order to go forward...

I think that you may have hit the nail on the head.  I have to take 'backwards' steps with climbing all the time. The point I think Andy Popp is making is that they aren't backwards at all.  The routes climbed might be lower in grade terms, but, if you are climbing well, fluidly and enjoying it, that means you are far from underperforming, in fact you are climbing better rather than harder.

Right now I'm "back" at HVS... when  I was happily leading E3's last Summer.  A few weeks ago I was "back" at VS/HVS and spent two weekends really enjoying going out doing 10 routes or so of that grade.. some of them were hard (Hen Cloud...) for me too but I didn't beat myself over the fact that I wasn't cruising them.  I really enjoyed the climbing and the fact that it was challenging. I did my first E2 of the year a couple of weeks back and that was a big 'small' victory....

Andy is on the money when he says that Expectation is a big impediment to climbing well and is very different from Desire.  Expectation carries with it a sense of false entitlement and puts your head in the future so to speak .. Desire on the other hand anchors you in the present.. if that makes sense 

[bigphil]

Wise words from FD and Andy.  Expectations can be the death of a good day.  Last week I fell off seconding the first rout of the day, an HVS I fully expected to cruise up, because I don't think I was concentrating as well as I should and I thought it'd be pretty straight forward.  Not so.  Straight after I lead a harder HVS in good style so was pretty pleased.  The difference was that I no longer expected anything, as I was conscious that I'd fallen on the last one.

How to you get rid of your expectations when you may have seen someone just do the route easily or its within your grade or you climbed well on the last route?  Thats the question.

Andy/FD, any more advice? 

[butters]

I was thinking about this and I think expectation is the death of climbing well (by which I mean fluidly, competently, and in a relaxed way irrespective of grade) for most people. Forget expectations.

Very nicely put Mr Popp - consider yourself duly wadded for such wisdom..

To Cider.

I know what you mean about taking that backward step as I have been thinking that I really should be leading HVS comfortably for a while now but just have not had the head for it. I led my first HVS about a year ago when I had led only a few VS's and then getting the second in a few months later but it has since taken me till last week to get my third done. The thing is that it came when it was ready and I deliberately chose one that suited my style and it is only now that I think the HVS grade is starting to open up for me though it is going to take a while before I feel competent at anything the grade can throw at me. There are also going to be a fair few days when HVS seems a long way away and I am climbing like a top roping punter at Stanage Popular End but those are the days when I am going to have to back off or utter a few more Sharma-easque power screams and profanities to help me get to the top. 

bluebrad

[andy popp]

I think the first line of your original post says it all Cidernut, no-one should feel inadequate about their climbing. Its about letting go a little bit. I've always maintained that if I've climbed hard then its been by accident rather than design. I've called a bullshitter for saying this but am sure its basically true. It doesn't mean you can't have ambitions or be psyched (I can be very psyched) but I've never done tick lists and all that. But anyone fairly new to climbing or looking to improve should bear in mind this is all from the perspective of someone who, after nearly thirty years climbing, still loves it as much as ever but is well past their peak and coming to terms with the fact that they'll never climb as hard as they used to. That might be why its easier for me to let go a little.

[AndiT]

Ben Moon used to use that Bruce Lee statement along the lines of 'consciousness of self is the greatest hindrance to the proper execution  of all physical activity.' or something like that. Basically, once you start to worry too much about how you are performing, then you find you perform badly. I had a depressing start of the year too, feeling crap and perceiving that my peers were climbing really well and I wasn't. It took a lot of Back pedaling to get back to where I wanted to be. You need to chill out, start at the beginning again and steadily bring it back up. Fitness changes very little really, mindsets can fluctuate massively. You are half way there now as atleast you've identified the problem. Good luck.

[moose]

re the "binding-up" that can result from too much expectation.  I recall Chris Sharma on Dosage 1, repeatedly falling off the same move on Realisation for session after session, talking about how he felt that the key was really wanting to do it... but not wanting it too much.  Okay he sounded stoned but he was probably right - to do anything hard you have to be really motivated but if this is translated into pressure it can be a negative influence. 

Sports science books talk about "arousal levels" (phhnnaarr!) in the same context.  A high level of "arousal" can produce higher levels of pure physical performance.  But climbing is a complex activity where a half unconscious "grace" often has to be accessed and combined with conscious decision making and the pure physical strength... so too much "psyche", whilst enabling you to bear down like a beast, can bugger up your flow. 

Frankly though I suspect a lot of the  problem is that the HVS grade is involved.... a good HVS is uncomfortable for everyone!  The grade is the home of some incredibly burly climbing that, if your strength is in your fingers rather than your shoulder / bicep beef, can often feel a damn sight more physically draining than stuff grades several harder (e.g. Suicide Wall at cratcliffe felt like the living bloody end for me a couple of weekends ago). 

[SA Chris]

I think the words "paralysis by analyisis" apply to both of you. Go out and climb. Forget about what you ware hoping to do or should be doing, just tune in to what you want to be doing. If you are feeling strong and psyched go with it. If you are not and are having an off day, cruise. The main idea of the whole exercise is that you are meant to be deriving some enjoyment from it. And remember at your stage of the game any time spent on the rock is good time, regardless of what grade you are climbing at.

[PATRuL]

Above all don't wobble
Read Erosion you willl see if your heart is in the right place
DON't be ashamed to back off things its all part of learning feeling your way into this game
DOn't be overcome by adrenilin, especially when you top out - whats that all about - the victory of ego perhaps
Focus on breath, and Om Mani Padme Om
Just push past you edge slowly and all will be coming
THe rush for excellence or grades is an illusiory trip of our times, and its the harder faster culture we find ourselves manifested in and frankly pretty stuck and seemingly diggin ourselves a bigger hole, still it's all part of the game
i would focus more on the moment than worry about results ultimately though goals are nice to attain also.

Bon chance.

[Yossarian]

There is more wisdom in this thread than in, well, a very wise thing.

I'm glad to hear that everyone else finds it tough, and has those days when the little voice in your head is saying "you really don't want to fall off now - imagine what might happen - ooh look, there's a ledge you might smack into, best not worry about it though because your gears so crap that you'll probably fall all the way anyway".

I haven't climbed trad for ages, but I am getting very excited about the prospect of getting out lots over the next few weekends. The problem with getting excited about it all is that you start thinking about what routes you might end up on and, in the comfort of your living room with a glass of wine in hand, it's pretty easy to imagine yourself on something difficult.  Move forward a few days, and there you are wobbling around, pumped stupid and wishing that you had chosen something slightly more amenable.

I think this battle with expectation is the key, but I haven't actually thought about it much before. My worst sport climbing trip by a mile was after a winter of hard training and I was itching to climb something hard (well, for me). Right from the start I found myself floundering, but rather than give in and pick easier routes I just kept telling myself that I shouldn't be finding it so hard, etc, etc.  I ended up with a pair of knackered elbows in a state of utter dejection.  The trouble is that when you've put the work in / time in / whatever, you do expect to be a bit better than last time. And if you have a competitive spirit then it's not easy when you find yourself back at square one. I'm all for going out and enjoying the climbing irrespective of grade, but when you go out for a day like that and get spanked on something you've cruised in the past then it's easy to get negative about it.

On a related subject, I was discussing with a friend about a particular mental approach which it turns out that we have both experimented with independently, to our cost.  We both found ourselves presented with a particular challenge that seemed a touch too frightening for our nearly 30 "maybe it's time to stop doing stupid things" mentality. In Alex's case it was whether or not to ski off a cliff, and in my case it was trying out an enormous dirt jump gap thing that I'd built on a whim in my garden.  The approach that we both came up with was to calmly explain to the voice of reason that we did this kind of thing all the time when we were kids, and nothing ever went (very badly) wrong then. This miraculously did the trick, and off we went.  He crashed on landing and knocked himself out, and spent the next couple of days with fairly nasty concussion.  I flew into the air, smacked my front wheel into the back of the transition and landed in a very painful heap with a large gash in my abdomen where I had contacted my stem with great force.  I think the moral of the story is that sometimes trying to prove inane points to yourself is not a good idea...

[PATRuL]

... surelly conquering inanity is what is all about
conquering self and one's shadow is key

[soapy]

i would disagree with that PT


embracing the impermanence and fragility of existence frees one

[andy popp]

embracing the impermanence and fragility of existence frees one

Exactly. Climbing can illuminate this paradox very powerfully. In accepting risk we assert our will to live. Where's Houdini when you need him?

[Yossarian]

i think understanding oneself and testing ones limits is important. That's why when you find yourself in a situation where the more rational voice in your head is encouraging you to stop and think, it would be prudent to consider similar previous experiences and, if you think that you might end up pushing yourself towards or even beyond your limits, how you think you're going to deal with it.  that is surely what it's all about, and that's why pushing yourself is so interesting.  conversely, choosing a goal that might or might not be totally beyond you and then putting your hands over your ears and singing very loudly when the voice of reason suggests an alternative plan of action is just plain stupid...