[cider nut]

To Andy, FD and bigphil -

My only expectation is the consistency I had before, I never 'expect' to get up routes near the top of my grade but I do at Severe.  A lot of these replies concentrate on how to fix my problems, but my other question was why is it happening, and I think it's important for me to pin that down before I can really fix it.  I'm not disregarding the advice here, I'm listening to it all, but I'm trying to work out what's relevant to me, as hopefully I should be the best person to tell that.

To bluebrad (and all in fsact as it's important) -

Yes, sure, but you reply as if my question was 'why can't I climb HVS' rather then 'why is my climbing so inconsistent when it never used to be.  I wouldn't mind if all I could climb was HS as long as it was HS every time I went out, as I could consolidate there again and build up.

To Andy -

"I think the first line of your original post says it all Cidernut, no-one should feel inadequate about their climbing. Its about letting go a little bit."
The thing is though, something's changed, and I feel like it'll hold me back until I can work out what it is.

To AndiT -

"feeling crap and perceiving that my peers were climbing really well and I wasn't"
lol  I know that feeling!
"You are half way there now as atleast you've identified the problem"
I think I'm far from identifying the problem!  All I've done it spot some symptoms.  Normally once I can identify a problem, I'm fine to fix it.

To moose -

You sound like MacLeod, who I respect.

To SA Chris -

"If you are not and are having an off day, cruise."
But on my off days, even if I do easy stuff, I'm still scared!

So, to summarise, any more thoughts except for expectation and back-stepping?  Particularly as to the 'why', rather than the 'how'?

(I haven't read page 2 yet, have to go back to work)

[abarro81]

you're a wimp?

[SA Chris]

It's because of a universal constant;

SHIT HAPPENS

If it was easy everyone would do it.

If it's a consistency you don't have any more, it's clearly not a consistency.

Let's face it continually exposing oneself to danger for enjoyment is not exactly a sensible thing in the first place. It's no surprise eveyone has up and down days, periods of self doubt and stress.. I reckon it's best to shrug off the down days and don't dwell on them, and hold the memory of the up days as clearly in your mind as much as possible.

[butters]

Apologies for being a bit blunt here but there seems to be a lot of asking "why" here to be honest Cider Nut - are you sure that you aren't just over-analysing this and looking for some answer that is probably going to elude you and even if you do figure it out prove to be useless?

Just get out there and climb and do your best to enjoy it - if you get scared then you get scared - it is how you deal with it that counts not the why.

bluebrad

[PATRuL]

It is what it is for you and how one deals with it

"embracing the impermanence and fragility of existence frees one"

Whats the difference Soapy between above and below? The formless is beyond words so lets snot get tied up in jinxy pinxy words.

".. surelly conquering inanity is what it is all about
conquering self and one's shadow is key"

Peace

[Falling Down]

Apologies for being a bit blunt here but there seems to be a lot of asking "why" here to be honest Cider Nut - are you sure that you aren't just over-analysing this and looking for some answer that is probably going to elude you and even if you do figure it out prove to be useless?

I'm going to be blunt too..

Cidernut - You've had considered responses from at least 5 people, many of whom have more than 20 years climbing experience up to the high E grades and sport grades.  All of us have said ' yeah - that happens to me too....' in various different ways.

It's pretty bleedin' obvious that this (inconsistency, fear, fear of failure, fustration, doubt - whatever you want to call it..) is a universal characteristic of the rock climbing experience as much as consistency, excitement, joy, overperformance and satisfation are.

I dunno.. maybe go and pay Neil Gresham 300 quid to chuck yourself off a few sport routes in Kalymnos - he might be able to help? 

[Pantontino]

I think you just need to stop worrying so much. There are a hundred different reasons why you might or might not climb well on any given route or on any given day. Just focus on the longer game and stop fussing over the detail so much. You just need lots and lots of mileage, on lots of different rock types in lots of different scenarios, and as often as your lifestyle or body can bear. Sooner or later you'll lock into a groove and you'll be flowing up routes.

The times in my life when I've climbed really well (stop sn**gering at the back) have always been after sustained periods of regular cragging. I do believe it is that simple.

[Falling Down]

  I should have added a smiley to that last comment so here's two to make up for it   

[cider nut]

Cidernut - You've had considered responses from at least 5 people, many of whom have more than 20 years climbing experience up to the high E grades and sport grades.  All of us have said ' yeah - that happens to me too....' in various different ways.

Indeed, and I'm listening carefully.  However, I think it would be wrong just to accept 'everything' without working out whether it applies to me, especially since not everybody is saying the same thing, or they're saying it in different ways.  My brain's a little slow,  I can't work out what applies to me straight away, but I do have quite a good gut instinct so I ask more questions to judge off my reactions.  Just because I haven't said 'oh yes, good point' doesn't mean I'm not thinking it, but if I said that it could possibly kill the thread and I wouldn't get any more comments!

I dunno.. maybe go and pay Neil Gresham 300 quid to chuck yourself off a few sport routes in Kalymnos - he might be able to help? 

I wondered about that before I posted, not Gresham but a lesson.  Then realised an email to a trusted friend would be cheaper, and I posted the same question here out of interest.

[cider nut]

bluebrad -

The "Why" is important. If you just fix the symptoms of a problem it'll always be there in the background.


Falling down -

P.S. Nobody on here really knows me, and yet nobody asked me any questions to get to the bottom of the problem... Did I really give all the info required to give a relevant answer? There may be something I missed (not on purpose of course) but it may be critical. Which is another reason why I made comments/questions back, to get more knowledge out of those with experience.

[PATRuL]

SOLO FLOW


Classic solos at Froggatt
The aftermath leaves silence
But not entirely
When is it I am still?
Fleeting glances
Amidst moves
Of utmost commitment
I hear nothing
But the inside
 Of my head rattle
The waves of wind
 And the leaves lapping
Are beyond my thought
Awareness precise, focused
Bodily sensations
Alert to fear
Negative mind arises
Push it away
And commit to Faith.


14th May 2003

The thing is CIder Nut you need a combo of nuts
Body, and mind are crucial, then the spirit of being can hold you stronger.
INternal and external are all iimportant factors just learn
Learn about yourself this is the only way people can only point the way
And only you can do it for yourself
Why do you want to improve?

[andy popp]

And only you can do it for yourself
Why do you want to improve?

Well, Cidernut, if nothing else you've got PATRuL to make sense, quite an achievment (actually meant seriously, I'm going to wad him for those last two lines.) It may true that we don't know you but I'm not sure we can be blamed for not asking you potentially very personal questions. May be we were just being sensitive. You seem to be searching for quite deep-rooted explanations. And yes, you probably did need to give all the relevant information if you were to get useful answers. I think everyone responded very positively and openly and drawing on the best resource they had available, their own experiences.

[rc]

How much of these feelings of failure/dissatisfaction come from the grade? You seem to feel like you should be able to do grade so-and-so comfortably. On a route you are finding tough the fight can turn from doing the climb into a struggle to salvage some ego. If you reckon you should be cruising HVS (random example) and find one that is a real fight, surely that is to be celebrated? Are we climbing just to find the easy ones? In some respects getting 'better' means you have to go climb harder grades to get the same feeling, the same challenge, the same reward you used to get leading VDiff. So moving through the grades is arbitrary and futile in terms of the climbing experience. Grades can kill the enjoyment of the thing if you use them as a measure of you rather than just beta.

I might even believe a small percentage of that waffle myself.

[erm, sam]

It could also be said that there isn't always an exact WHY.  Risking life and limb for no particular reason is basically stoopid and your body is reminding you of this in myriad ways. Maybe you are not experienced yet at the myriad ways creating an atmosphere within yourself where your bodys reservations about the activity are calmed, or become ignorable and don't effect your enjoyment of climbing.
Lots of people have suggested stragagies they have found usefull for creating this environment within themselves. As you become more experienced maybe you will find your personal reasons that cause you to suffer from low confidence etc, and work out your own stratagies for dealing with them.
The bottom line is though, you are only just at the beginning of your climbing journey. Stop anyalysing and find ways to climb that are rewarding. If it means climbing "only" VDiff for a year, then so what!. All that matters is that you enjoy climbing.

[cider nut]

It may true that we don't know you but I'm not sure we can be blamed for not asking you potentially very personal questions. May be we were just being sensitive. You seem to be searching for quite deep-rooted explanations. And yes, you probably did need to give all the relevant information if you were to get useful answers. I think everyone responded very positively and openly and drawing on the best resource they had available, their own experiences.

I wasn't criticising, was just trying to justify my responses as I think they came across as dismissive.  All help is welcome and taken on board, honestly

[cider nut]

It could also be said that there isn't always an exact WHY.  Risking life and limb for no particular reason is basically stoopid and your body is reminding you of this in myriad ways. Maybe you are not experienced yet at the myriad ways creating an atmosphere within yourself where your bodys reservations about the activity are calmed, or become ignorable and don't effect your enjoyment of climbing.
Lots of people have suggested stragagies they have found usefull for creating this environment within themselves. As you become more experienced maybe you will find your personal reasons that cause you to suffer from low confidence etc, and work out your own stratagies for dealing with them.

Interesting comment, and well written - I will ponder on it...

[Paz]

Someone else mentioned HVSs requiring the type of beef that took me ages to develop and now take for granted, but did you not answer your own question?

You climbed well on Slate, but not on steep Severe cracks.  Phrase that again in terms of angles of steepness, and factor in some technique.  We need more data to feed in to the UKB supercomputer. 

Then there's all this unknowns angle - the unknown's kind of what makes it an adventure to me - if I can focus on `wow what might happen next?' then it's kind of relaxing.

Even when I've dropped my grade, I sometimes secretly think, bloody hell this is a bit hard for VS, when I'm a bit stuck, but it's a trap you need to avoid, especially when grading way below your limit.  It comes from being complacent.  Expecting to do something is not the same as expecting to piss something.  When a grade's not at your limit then it might not mean anything to you, so you don't have the same desire to climb it.  But actually I like this, and usually some sort of `professional' pride or stubbornness can spur me on in that situation.  It might be a bit Dark Side, or negative, but if not wanting to be seen to fail in front of your mates gets you up something then fuck it, it works, that's what's important.

P.S.  No I don't have a point.  I can't just magic them up like that.  It's just showing off.  If we can get you climbing again then you won't be bothered about the why.

P.P.S  It's not just about fun, it's about way more than that.

ab - I should've thought you've met him yes, but it would be very unfair of me to name that half Viking.  He didn't mean it, it was more an example of how climbers come out with some right shite when they've just failed, and maybe they should bare it in mind themselves that they need to try harder when they're next on route and it's not going to plan. 

[moose]

Someone else mentioned HVSs requiring the type of beef that took me ages to develop and now take for granted

I think that was me.  On recent crag outings I have climbed routes in the VS - E2 range and often found the HVSs to be the biggest struggle purely due to brute force and calories consumed - it's a strengths and weaknesses thing.  The E2s have generally played to my strengths - technical with crimpy difficulties.  In contrast the HVSs have been "old skool classics" often chosen for historical mojo rather than suitability or a love of that style: steep Brown / Whillans routes etc with lots of unavoidable beef and jammin'.  Definitely not my strong point as I am built like a cruel child's mockery of a man that's been made from pipe-cleaners  - can hang off pretty small holds for ages but cannot move between even the juggiest of holds without elaborate footwork.  At the risk of sexist generalisations I suspect that the OP, being female, suffers from a similar lack of pure beef and also performs better on the crimpier stuff.

[Paz]

With your historical mojo thing, that's kind of what I was getting at saying it's more than fun.  At the time it can be fucking painful, but afterwards, beefy climbing, on your classic HVSs especially, is pretty satisfying. 

[Somebody's Fool]

All you people jumping on the blunt bandwagon would do well to bear in mind what happened in 2004...


As much as we want cider nut to become a consistent HVS climber, the last thing anyone wants is the return of this dismal little twerp.

[cider nut]

You climbed well on Slate, but not on steep Severe cracks. 

That's just one example, I also climbed badly/with the fear on sandstone and grit at a variety of different angles!

[cider nut]

Hi all,
Well I went out for a last minute evening climbing session tonight as the weather was lush.  I'd wanted to go back to Aldery Cliff where I went last night as it's the first time I've led on limestone since last August and enjoyed it, but I couldn't get a partner there so met somebody as Windgather instead. 

I was a little apprehensive in case the grit was warm or other things that may get in the way, but I kept all the thoughts from this thread in my mind and stayed nice and chilled out - after all there isn't anything major I wanted to climbed at Windgather so I wasn't psyched out by the prospect of any leads, and it was a nice evening to just be out.

I soloed 4 Severes (as well as a VD and D), led North Buttress Arete Direct VS, and seconded a steep HVS, all without any trouble, and enjoyed them all.  It might just be a one off again, but I like to think I helped my mental state along this time, instead of it being in the right zone just by chance.

[PATRuL]

Erm, Sam makes sense too

There's bundles of joy, fear, and wobbles of mind on all types of routes
John Dunne reckons we need the buzz of a scary route to remind us of oour ancient aggressive routes
But we have a choice in life always if even only in our response

OUr so called 'closest relatives', besides bears, (yes boys the yeti is our ancient relative too)
are the bonobo and the chimpanzee
This equates to love and war, the bonobo = love - a choice we so often fail to make
                                        the chimp   = war - a very aggressive and territorial animal
So you can either stay at home and relax or go oout and get freaked
Both are great climbers and neither climb for the grade
Sharma the charma of his snake is pretty close to the bonobo
And i think i'll cop oout on the later and let you make your own comparisions
But the Cat Walk at Malham can be quite aggressive and territorial
Meeow over and out

[cider nut]

<Updates logbook in true trainspotter style>
So that makes 108 routes this year so far, 25 of those onsights, on sandstone, slate, grit (quarried and natural), limestone (quarried and natural), Basalt and Churnet pebbles.  And perhaps this weekend volcanic in the Lakes.  Now who was it said climb on as many rock types as possible...

[SA Chris]

P.P.S  It's not just about fun, it's about way more than that.

Aye, it's not about fun, it's about enjoyment. Deriving enjoyment, in whatever form you want it to be, from what is, after all, a pretty perverse pasttime.