[whispering nic]

Scotland's population is aboot the same as Norway. 2 8Cers, and no more than 10 8Bers, probs 30 to 40 8Aers - but relatively few of these actually in Scotland (Oh and Silk Purse is said to be 'continental 8a' so bung a few more on..?!) This gives lower UK stat. I do think people over estimate this type of thing. I can't speak about Peak sport but you hardly ever see 8 sends in Yorkshire or Pen Trwyn...and half the time there a quickdraw hanging off the chain that gets grabbed

[nash1]

What rock is this on?  There's no website is there?

Most of the rock in Norway is granite (though Hell and Loddefjord are not) Pretty much all Stavanger stuff and all Oslo stuff is granite. Good website to Stavanger bouldering here: http://www.buldreinfo.com/index.php
Click on the Enlgish link for ...er... English, and the foto/video link for ...er... photos and vids

Bin done a bit here as well: http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,5931.0.html

[AndiT]

Scotland.... 2 8Cers, and no more than 10 8Bers, probs 30 to 40 8Aers - but relatively few of these actually in Scotland.

Yeah I've seen these stats before, did it have about 50 Scots currently on sighting E5 which I think roughly equated to about 500 English climbers working at the same level. Does this seem about right? If so that'd make about 400 8a climbers in England, which seems maybe about right. I wouldn't be surprised if it was less to be honest, as you need to be relatively keen to be an 8aer these days as folk just don't really seem into it.

[Paul B]

as folk just don't really seem into it.

What on earth gives you that idea?

[AndiT]

What on earth gives you that idea?

Just the amount of people I see climbing on bolted limestone compared to the hoardes I see on grit or trad crags. I tend to see the same faces, week in, week out on Limestone but a much more mixed bunch on the trad crags. Amongst the guys I climb with probably 50% drop out when the thought of British Sport Climbing rears it's head. This is generaly down to the thought of having to dog routes and work hard as opposed to the instant gratification of knocking off a few trad routes or boulder problems.

[Johnny Brown]

Amongst the guys I climb with probably 50% drop out when the thought of British Sport Climbing rears it's head. This is generaly down to the thought of having to dog routes and work hard

I think its more to do with British sport climbing not being very inspiring.

[AndiT]

I suppose that's a more succinct way of putting it! There are some amazing routes out there (Thormans Moth springs to mind), but yeah, I love all aspects of climbing, but the thought of going to some British Sport crags just fills me with dread too.

[Paul B]

I think its more to do with British sport climbing not being very inspiring.

That's a whole separate debate..

Andi, is it not also apparent to you that most of those who do choose to sport climb are operating (averagely) at a much higher grade than all of the grit climbers? I do agree that to a certain level that you find one bunch of climbers at a given crag repeatedly but I spent a great deal of time last season down at WCJ cornice, going on different days, during the week etc I saw a lot of people who I previously had never seen before.
I reckon the amount of ascents of free monster alone last season may account for more than the guesstimate amount of 8a climbers previously mentioned(please don't take this last line seriously, as its obviously not correct, I often found people queuing for this route when the remainder of the crag was deserted, madness.)

[dave]

pauls right - for a kickoff theres all those foundry weirdos that only venture outside when mecca is dry. you won't see them at grit crags in the winter.

[AndiT]

I think its more to do with British sport climbing not being very inspiring.

That's a whole separate debate..

Andi, is it not also apparent to you that most of those who do choose to sport climb are operating (averagely) at a much higher grade than all of the grit climbers?

I don't quite get what you mean by this? Could I not also argue then that all the grit climbers operate at a much higher grade - on grit? If not then you are simply stating that those who are climbing at a higher grade are climbing at a higher grade than those at a lower grade...if you get what I mean!

The discussion tends to keep gravitating back to the same point of the amount of people who climb a particular route i.e. I saw 10 people climb 'The Toilet/Free Monster/Raindogs', last year alone, hence there must be milions of people climbing 8a, wheras I believe it more a case of people congregating around the classic quality or classic first 8a type routes. I'd still wager that there would be no more than 500 people who climbed 8a last year in England, probably quite a few less.

[Paul B]

the point was meant to be: That although there are much fewer people climbing on limestone compared to grit those that are, generally operate at a much higher level and therefore are more likely to have climbed 8a. For example it simply would not be correct to assume the same perecentage of people climb at a particular level on each medium. Sorry if thats a little unclear.

[AndiT]

Fair do's. I think it boils down more to the fact though that those who wish to climb hard routes can't do it on Grit in summer so have to go to the Lime, so I suppose it could be argued that it filters out those who aren't operating at higher grades, this and the fact that easier routes tend to be very poor on sport Lime.

[north_country_boy]

pauls right - for a kickoff theres all those foundry weirdos that only venture outside when mecca is dry. you won't see them at grit crags in the winter.

Haha, yeah well it obviously works for them, how many people do you know who have, climb 8b+ have a full time job, and three kids? Can't imagine weeknends on the grit are that easy to fit in, compared to sessions down the wall?!?

[Andy F]

pauls right - for a kickoff theres all those foundry weirdos that only venture outside when mecca is dry. you won't see them at grit crags in the winter.

Haha, yeah well it obviously works for them, how many people do you know who have, climb 8b+ have a full time job, and three kids?

Erm, I can think of only one UK climber who fitted into that category - Tony Mitchell. Of all the people I climb with or meet at the crag on a regular basis it's the childless males who climb the hardest (Ste Mac excepted). Having (young)kids and a full time job is not very condusive to climbing hard.

[north_country_boy]

Well, I know of three who have climbed 8b> who both have kids.....I agree with your last point, not very condusive to climbing hard, but some people manage.......and shockingly to some people......without bouldering on the grit!!!! 

[IanP]

[The discussion tends to keep gravitating back to the same point of the amount of people who climb a particular route i.e. I saw 10 people climb 'The Toilet/Free Monster/Raindogs', last year alone, hence there must be milions of people climbing 8a, wheras I believe it more a case of people congregating around the classic quality or classic first 8a type routes. I'd still wager that there would be no more than 500 people who climbed 8a last year in England, probably quite a few less.

I'd put a strong bet on the number of people who redpointed 8a or harder last year being significantly less than 500 - you just don't see enough hard(ish) redpoints week in week out to come up with that many people (unless of course a couple of hundred people redpointed Free Monster last year  )

[Bonjoy]

Lets not forget there's a lot more people try 8as every year than get up them! I saw lots of folk on Freemonster last year too, but of the ones I remember on it more than half didn't actually do it. Likewise with Raindogs, as an entry level 8a it sees a lot of folk having a go to test the water, without ever doing it.
 In my experience sport climbing has seen a considerable increase in popularity in the last five years. I have also heard this from Tor/Malham regulars who have been going to these crags religiously for many years. That said, if forced to guess, I don't think there would have been more than 200 who did 8a in the UK last year, if that many.


 Regards quality - The UK (mostly Yorkshire) has a few extremely good sport crags which are undoubtedly home to some of the countries best routes, if you don't believe me ask folk like Birkett who are regulars at these crags as well as being hard tradders all over the country. The Groove, The Thumb, Cave Route RH and the like are as good as it gets at any UK crag. If you don't think these stunning atmospheric lines, on great rock, with sustained brilliant moves, are any good you are as good as saying the UK has no good routes.

[AndiT]

 

[Andy F]

  as well

[andy_e]

 

I love a bandwagon.

(especially a wagon of andys)

I think limestone routes are far better than grit routes anyway, and as I've never sport-climbed properly abroad, I've got nothing to compare them to, but the ones I've been on are amazing.

[Stubbs]

Just out of interest andi, how many grit routes have you done and how many limestone routes have you done?

[andy_e]

i've done more grit routes than limestone routes... 

[Paul B]

Lets not forget there's a lot more people try 8as every year than get up them! I saw lots of folk on Freemonster last year too, but of the ones I remember on it more than half didn't actually do it.

yeah good point. I guess like you and others may have said people seems to congregate about the classics, I bet things like Ruby fruit jungle didn't see very many ascents, especially prior to your (and james') good work on it.

[corniceman]

Well, I know of three who have climbed 8b> who both have kids.....I agree with your last point, not very condusive to climbing hard, but some people manage.......and shockingly to some people......without bouldering on the grit!!!! 

There are a few old boys who climb 8b and have kids and not just Foundry wierdos as you put it. Some of us also spend a lot of time out bouldering on grit or elsewhere also as well as squeeze in a whole host more. It can be done with a bit of careful planning and dedication.

[Andy F]

I know a few who climb 8b and have kids, just adding the '+' seems a bit tough.  As a side note, it's good to see some younger faces at Malham and Kilnsey. Seems like Sport climbing is slowly becoming fashionable again...