[r-man]

One thing I can’t understand though after visiting the Climbing Works (well done guys BTW!) during one of the washout days is why routes like Blind Vision haven’t had stacks of ascents. The hardest trad routes in the UK in general really aren’t that hard! There are so many strong lads and lassies kicking around who would mince up the likes of Parthian, Blind Vision, Rhapsody etc etc… At the Climbing Works I saw many many climbers much stronger than me. What has happened to the Mick Fowler attitude of “how hard can it be?”

Dave's comment about there being lots of climbers in Sheffield who *could* climb these hard trad routes is interesting. The hardest thing about doing routes like BV is the actually getting out there and doing them, in this respect, Sheffield is turning into a backwater!

Why is this then? Why don't the E10s see more ascents? Is it because the people who climb really hard tend not to be the be people who climb trad? Is it because of the weather? Is there just a lack of interest? Every so often we hear of the odd top sports climber (Steve Mac, Buoux 8c) doing one or two trad routes, and saying they might do some more trad, but nothing really comes of it. I guess they just aren't psyched.

And finally, perhaps here's a better way of gauging opinion:

The Question
Q. Regardless of your current standard, would you at some point in the future seriously like to have a go at an E10, if you thought you were capable?

Personally, assuming I ever got good enough it's still a NO, I like bouldering and just having fun. Don't like getting scared. I'm sure this goes for many people on this forum, but I know some of you are also keen tradsters, so own up... nowt wrong with having ambition...

[uptown]

It takes two? time for two?

Plus diarists / blogsters / photographers / videoers / spotters / 2nd belayers / groupies / pad carriers?

I struggle enough with modern day time pressures in finding  just 1 other to hold my ropes - maybe to climb E10 you need to climb full time or else take regular lengthy sabbaticals?
I'm sure I could, but what with another quarter point on the repo rate I just can't afford the motivation to scale such heights!

[Johnny Brown]

Hard Grit is all a bit nineties now. All the in crowd are now into ground-upping the old headpoints.

Well some of them are. I think it is true to say headpointing is going out of fashion though.

[al]

The hardest thing about doing routes like BV is the actually getting out there and doing them, in this respect, Sheffield is turning into a backwater!

this may be so (although i'd question it) but from what i see the sheffield climbing 'scene' seems healthier and happeir, more varied and balanced than i've known since i came here (86) - it may be true to say there aren't many individuals going out and toiling up some big numbers, glory seeking etc. but i'd argue that is actually a good sign (whenever those characters are around it seems to poison things a little) - instead on any given day the grit/wall is teeming with males/females who all seem to be smiling these days.
or maybe i'm a naive ageing hippy 

[Will Hunt]

Is hard trad going out of fashion and hard sport/bouldering the new black?

[fatdoc]

fashion has little to do with it. Dave Mcleod has shown us some embarrassing truths.... E10 in a 45 min weather window.. admittedly full time pro climber driven to a degree that is astounding.. how many near full timers are there in sheff though??? dozens i suspect...

fashion???? very interesting... I got into headpointing before it had a name.. did loads.. mainly E6 and E7... *back in the day, old giffer speaking*, along with Mike lee, seb, nige prestidge, shaun hutson et al. fiercely fought early ascents (even chalking yr name under the route to say  - sorry mate no 2nd ascent for you- not me... but it's all damn good history now). basically repeated the routes in the way they had been first done... I got a SHIT load of grief for this climbing style in the pubs and cafes - dunno why. Didnt really care though, at that time I had the time, desire and guile to persuade large numbers of climbers to hold ropes and come out just to aid me in a rather bizzare climbing style. that was nearly unheard of at the time.


dont regret a bit of it.

my point: you really truly have to bloody want it to do this style of climbing, and have time and resource  -which if based in sheff could be construed as a poor excuse. how many people based in sheff have been to dumbarton recently???

it just comes down to what you want to acheive.... at this moment in time it's safer more time efficent ways to feel good about my climbing that i'm into -its possible i'll want a grit E7 again one day, but not at the moment, i'll never do E9 now. nothing wrong with this... but what i would cry about is a talented local individual that doesnt go out on a shoddy day to try the grit testpieces just cos it's not cool this year - if you want it DO it...


that's climbing



thoughts??

[Paz]

I can't really be arsed with headpointing neither, so until I get into it and until the minimum physical ability for E10 (it's roughly around an 8a `for fucks sake don't fall' solo isn't it, assuming no delicate ness or falloffability?) or slab talent is achieved by me, the `E10' answer's a flat no.  It's so out of my league I can't believe I even considered it for the moment, but there's the numbers for you.  

It is funny though, because the limits of headpointing have yet to be really found, there's got to be a lot of other E10s and E11s out there.  Even on the grit, what ever happened to all these `the future of hard grit lies in harder more physically demanding routes, with the hardest bouldering moves being done on the lead' (mis)quote thing from hard grit?  Are things like the Cratcliffe Groove seeing attention?  The direct start's been done and the rest is a groove with breaks - there has to be a way, it's probably even got gear.  Go easy with the (tooth) brushes on that one like.  When I get chance I'm going to compile a list of all the projects I can think of (all open, though there are two closed ones, but one `owner' has nicked plenty of other people's, and the other needs all the help he can get) and declare open season on them.  If you all you strong bastards would rather stick to your training programmes and your boulders after seeing the list of outrageous things crying out to be done, then I'll shut up.  

With ground upping as well, if it's true that every move on Parthian Shot's been fallen off, then why doesn't someone who onsights 8b or 8b+ learn how to place PRs and go for the flash or ground up?  A proper ascent of what for a long time was the most famous route on grit, that's quite some tick. I'm surprised it's not sort after.  

I think I've just given my proposed answer there though - not enough people with the requisite gritstone bouldering (i.e., physically and technically hard climbing) experience are also confident of onsighting 8b.  There's the other standard thing about running out of new routes and potential hard routes having too many jugs to be truly hard, too.

[dave]

Hard Grit is all a bit nineties now. All the in crowd are now into ground-upping the old headpoints.

Well some of them are. I think it is true to say headpointing is going out of fashion though.

from reading the mags about 1999-2001 it becamse clear that anyone half-strong or with a wreckless streak who had enough time on their hands could yellowpoint an E8 of their choice into submission. I think in the 90s you could probably headpoint (certian)E8(s) without being what we would now term as "crazy strong", mearly being a competent boulderer would do (i wager 90% of the posters on this board would manage a suitable E8 headpoint if they applied themselves to it and given sufficient working time). the jump up to E9/10/11 seems to need another level, i.e. the climber who can not only piss font 8a, and piss it above shit gear, AND have the background in E7/8/9 to give them the confidence to even try.

personally i've never headpointed, and could only see myself trying it if the route produced was going to be at or near the cutting edge of what was current, or was a new route that genuinly needed pre-inspection. i respected the guys on hard grit for headpointing those new or rarely repeated E8/9s, but found it hard to get exciting about the 83rd ascent of end of the affair or whatever was reported in the mags in 1999. theres plenty of ground-up challenges that are a better use of time and energy these days, in my eyes at least. should i find myself being about to ground-up E8 and piss font 8a then show me and E10, until then lets stick to burbage west.

[Fiend]

One thing I can’t understand though after visiting the The Question
Q. Regardless of your current standard, would you at some point in the future seriously like to have a go at an E10, if you thought you were capable?

Only if I could onsight it....which is unlikely  .

Obviously as a trad climber who tries to progress, I like pushing myself, above gear, all that malarkey. BUT it's crucial for it to be something that inspires me, irrespective of number. When I look at that question, I think less about the number and more about whether any E10s are actually inspiring. Errrr....and to me....not really. I can't really say that any of them look that stunning - good to be sure, but not amazing (although Equilibrium is kinda cool with the gear situation). Divided Years did look inspiring enough, LOL.

[fatdoc]

sorry fiend mate...

what's yr point here?

 i'm sure have someting to add, but the quote box bit has me a bit confused..

[squeek]

fiend added the bit that looks like it was quoted from r-man.

[Fiend]

Ah ummm. My point was that as someone who can't use the quote function after years of practise, how could I possibly attain the skills to climb E10 

[squeek]

from reading the mags about 1999-2001 it becamse clear that anyone half-strong or with a wreckless streak who had enough time on their hands could yellowpoint an E8 of their choice into submission. I think in the 90s you could probably headpoint (certian)E8(s) without being what we would now term as "crazy strong", mearly being a competent boulderer would do (i wager 90% of the posters on this board would manage a suitable E8 headpoint if they applied themselves to it and given sufficient working time). the jump up to E9/10/11 seems to need another level

Is this why E8 climbers don't try E10s and hence that recently several E10s have had the comments made that they might be E8?   

Does anyone think anything will get upgraded to E10?  I've heard widdop wall might on the old grapevine.

[BenF]

I've heard widdop wall might on the old grapevine.

That would be ironic.

[dave]

i think if there was ever a contender for E9 that could be upgraded than widdop wall must be knocking on that door with an open mind, pedal to the metal, and a fist full of cliches.

[cofe]

i agree with everybody, but mainly al.

and i don't think this could be e10 could it? 

[Andy F]

As we all know fashions in climbing are (as in life) circular, hard grit is becoming somewhat 'passe', just as hard sport climbing did in the late '90's. Maybe it's time for a renassiance in the mountains, with Cloggy becoming the place to be seen again, or could it be slate that is the new (old) thing? Is southern sandstone the new grit? Is Gogarth going to be the new 'Tor?

Whatever happens it's about time the abundantly talented got out there and pushed the envelope again. At least Dave Macleod is stretching things a bit. Where are tomorrow's Dawes, Moon and Moffatt? In a cellar somewhere? Find the light.

[Fiend]

Tomorrow's Moon seems to be pretty much today's Moon.....or the 1980's Moon!

[Paz]

Cloggy becoming the place to be seen again,
 

Oh that the weather was good enough. 
Right now, cloggy's the new place to be seen in winter.  I'm surprised more VS climbers haven't complained about scratch marks on their classics.