[Bonjoy]

 Due to having Dupuytren's I have a knot of scar tissue on the palm of my right hand. As you can imagine the skin on this pressure point tends to wear through very quickly when climbing on big grit slopers. For ages now i've been getting around this by supergluing a double thickness square of finger tape over the area. This works pretty well but I have always thought there must be a better way. What I really want is something as sticky as standard superglue but with some flexibility so that it doesn't just crack and crumble when bent and so it has some skin like friction. Have done a bit of googling in the last week or so and have come across some interesting products which might be of interest to boulderers in general.

 The first is a medical grade stuff which is pretty expensive but which can be applied directly into cuts! This stuff is flexible, waterproof, doesn't sting even in open cuts and could be used to glue down flappers, close splits or possibly to get extra climbing time out of thin tips. It's produced by Compeed and is called Liquid Bandage: http://www.mypharmacy.co.uk/health_products/products/c/compeed/compeed_liquid_bandage.htm


 The other one I have come across is a much cheaper gel superglue which sets clear and is flexible. No use for open cuts as it's would probably sting like buggery and be rather toxic. Because it's a gel it can be easily built up into a substantial layer. More than the other stuff I reckon this could be useful as artificial skin, given it's low cost, easy to use gel texture and tough flexible finish. It's produced by Pacer and sold in hobby shops for model building, it's called Flex-Zap II : http://zap.supergluecorp.com/pt32.html


 I ordered two lots of each online and both have arrived. I'll be trying them out as soon as I get a chance and will report back. Put a layer of Flex on today and am mighty impressed with the tough skin-like result.

[Monolith]

Good shout Bonjoy. That liquid skin stuff is amazing and it seems to have eclipsed conventional plasters in our house!
Years ago, I jumped onto our garage door ledge to mantle over and get my cricket ball back. I had totally forgotten that a few weeks earlier, my dad had put carpet gripper rods on there to keep would be crooks out. Obviously, jumping onto them I cut myself stupid and had loads of thin, but very deep gashes down my hands. When I went to hospital, the doctor used some sort of medical superglue to close all of the cuts. It was incredible, and I'd love to know how to get hold of something so powerful.

[Bonjoy]

That stuff will have been something like Dermabond or Traumaseal. It's reet expensive and you can't order it online unless you are a registered medical bod. Have looked into this and even asked doctor mates, but had no luck. From what I can gather the Compeed stuff may be pretty much the same thing but packaged differently and sold as a home first aid product. American firm Band-aid also do a similar thing, including a Gel type formula, but they don't seem to have any UK retailers.

[Monolith]

I think Savlon might also have ventured into liquid plasters now. I could be wrong, but sure there are a few different brands of the stuff now. I first saw liquid plasters in the supermarket in Milly. Surprised to see the Fontainebleau massif hadn't bled (excuse the pun) stocks dry of the stuff.

[BenF]

Good research and knowledge Bonjoy.  I too have Dupuytren's, but not to a particularly advanced state.  However I do have an area of particularly hard skin over each bit of scar tissue on each palm and I can see how this will eventually lead to similar problems to those that you describe, but as yet I've had no adverse effects.  I'll be interested to read how you got on with the stuff you've ordered and not just in relation to the Dupuytren's scarring.

Funnily enough, at the moment I actually feel the raised bit of hard skin helps me find friction on slopers.  And I'm only saying that partially in jest!

[moose]

I suspect the Compeed stuff might prove a disappointment.  It looks very similar to the liquid skin that Germolene (Bayer) sell; acting as a water resistant, yet breathable barriers, against reinfection.  Although the germolene stuff dries to form a hard seeming yet flexible crust it is not very tough or well-adhered and tears off fairly easily.  Essentially it's not intended to replace stitches / staples for actually holding wounds closed - it's role is to replace plasters and bandages.

The proper medical glue is a different thing altogether: it actually bonds wounds together rather than just covering them.  Chemically it is near-identical to super-glue  in that they are both cyano-acrylate ester based  (have a look at the Materials Data Sheet for the FlexZap).  However, the medical grade stuff contains slightly less impurities and more importantly the carbon chain-length of one of the components is longer so that it is more stable under biological conditions and degrades to a slightly different by-product.  When normal superglue (e.g. flexzap) degrades it produces a carboxylic acid that can irritate the healing wound and cause reinfection.  I don't think it's massively toxic though - more just something to be aware of and have some Savlon handy - hence it's continued use by many desperately keen types!

[Bonjoy]

 Have just been to buy some lunch at Tesco and found they do a spray on liquid plaster. Have bought a can of this to trail too.
 So far like you say Moose the Flex-Zap stuff looks like being the most useful, although I reckon the Compeed could be useful for sticking down flappers.

[moose]

aye - i remember being pretty disaapointed with the germolene liquid skin when I bought it.  The FlexZap is presumably no different to any other superglue - like Locktite etc?

[Bonjoy]

Normal superglue is brittle when dry, this stuff is flexible. Most other flexible superglues are black and this stuff is clear.

[SA Chris]

I'm disappointed this album has nothing to do with Gomez.

[Bonjoy]

I suspect the Compeed stuff might prove a disappointment.  It looks very similar to the liquid skin that Germolene (Bayer) sell; acting as a water resistant, yet breathable barriers, against reinfection.  Although the germolene stuff dries to form a hard seeming yet flexible crust it is not very tough or well-adhered and tears off fairly easily.  Essentially it's not intended to replace stitches / staples for actually holding wounds closed - it's role is to replace plasters and bandages

Checked the data on Compeed stuff, it contains 2-octyl cyanoacrylate. So i'd imagine it's more like the medical liquid stitches than the Germalene type stuff.

[nathan wind]

I got hold of some of some stuff called 'new skin' in the states... though I dont know if its available over here..

http://www.newskinproducts.com/

pretty good stuff, helped with quite a bad flapper I picked up in the buttermilks.. not perfect but meant I could keep climbing, stang a bit when first applied then eventually flaked off.. if anything it reminded me of clear nail varnish..

I've got dupuytrens too, though have never really thought of using new skin to help with this, I've got quite a sizeable lump in my palm which can get in the way and be pretty painful when I'm bouldering, predictably on slopers and flat holds.. ultimately I dont think new skin would be strong enough to cope with this.. as people have mentioned earlier it seems to be one of those products that is aimed at more general use, cuts, scratches etc

Been amazed recently by the amount of climbers I know with dupuytrens, especially at the base of the ring ringer on their right hand..

[Pantontino]

I think I might have it. I've had a small lump on my palm for a few years now. It is in line with my left hand ring finger, and about 2 cm into my palm. It used to hurt a bit, but doesn't seem so bad these days, and I'm sure it has shrunk slightly. I don't have any mobility problems in that finger, although it is quite hard to completely straighten my middle finger on both hands.

I guess we're all doomed to become cripples in later life.

[Bonjoy]

 Since i've had it i've come accross loads of other climbers with it. Someone posted a link on UKC to a scientific paper that showed climbers have a higher prevelance and earlier onset than the general population.

[Pantontino]

I didn't know it was called Dupuytren's, I just referred to it as 'lumpy hand syndrome'. Ray Wood has got it, and so did Jim Perrin - he had an operation to sort it out.

Have any of you lost significant mobility in your fingers? (I realise playing the guitar is probably going to be extra hard for a climber. I mean inability to straighten fingers etc)

[Bonjoy]

Have had for about seven year. Affects little and ring finger on both hands, but so far (touch wood) I can still straighten all my fingers, although I can't fit my hands in tight hand jams anymore. I can think of about eight climbers or ex-climbers with it not including you, BenF or any of the others you mention.
 If it does come to the point where an operation is required you are much better off going for the keyhole type job with a razor tipped needle rather than the nasty old-school open hand surgery job. Either way it will almost certainly recur after the op anyway. Best site for info i've found is this: http://www.dupuytren.org/phpBB2-fr/viewforum.php?f=1 (although looking at it today it looks like the site has been heavily spammed recently)

[nathan wind]

I think I might have it. I've had a small lump on my palm for a few years now. It is in line with my left hand ring finger, and about 2 cm into my palm.

Sounds like it I'm afraid.. I've had it for a couple of years.. just literally appeared. Doesn't affect me on a day to day basis but can hurt on the slopers.. have noticed some tightness in the affected area when climbing on non sloping holds and wondered if, because I tend to open hand everything, dupuytrens was a by product of this..

Looked some stuff up on the net regarding treatment but apparently even surgey is no guarantee it wont return..

..also, someone at leeds wall mentioned a posible link between taking chrondroitin and dupuy's developing, dont know if theres any mileage in this..   

[SA Chris]

Well, I think I may have one too; hard lump on palm between ring and little finger, just below the big crease? Still small at the moment so never bothers me at all, but skin rubs a bit raw after a long mountain bike session, even with padded gloves.

Never thought it was anything specific, just a lump. I am taking chrondroitin, will see if ti ever develops.

[nathan wind]

funny you should mention the biking, I forgot about that.. one of the activities that hurts mine the most.. especially uphill..

[BenF]

My Mum has had operations to help sort her Dupuytren's out on both hands.  She doesn't climb (oh how cool that would have been...  introduced to climbing as a toddler. I would obviously be so strong if I'd started aged two and not sixteen), but she reckons the condition is inherited.  Dunno where she got that from, I shall ask her.

I also know about half a dozen climbers with similar lumps on their palms, and probably another three non-climbers with it.  My lumps correspond with the tendon from my little fingers and although the lumps grew rapidly a couple of years ago, they don't seem to have grown for at least a year.  And similarly to Simon, they used to hurt a bit, but now they don't. 

[Bonjoy]

DC is inherited and is fairly common in North Europe. The severity and age of onset is effected by lots of things, climbing seems to be one of the worst things for triggering the condition in DC prone individuals.
Ben, it's not connected with tendons although it follows the line of them. It is an auto-immune reaction causing scar tissue to develop on the palmar facia (muscle sheath) of the palm. The scar tissue eventually forms cords which tend to contract causing fingers to be pulled in (fixed flexion deformity). The initial pain is part of the auto-immune response associated with inflamation and tissue grown. Over time the scar tissue becomes inactive and painless.

[Somebody's Fool]

My granny had it, so does my mother.  Both of them had/have it as bad as Bonjoy so I guess that's what my innocuous lump is going to end up as in years to come.  Tell 'em about the Pope's salute Bonjoy, I can't remember the details.

[andy popp]

Re: the Northern Europe angle, I think I understood from yet another climber I know to have it, that the condition is particularly prevalent in populations with strong Scandanavian or even Viking genetic links. In which case, climbers in the North-east should be in for a particularly hard time of it. People have also mentioned people, normally grannies who have had corrective surgery (for the fixed flexion JB mentions), but I think that this normally only at the expense of finger strength and hence is little use to climbers.

[nathan wind]

thinking about it, I remember my grandad had it..

[Pantontino]

Re: the Northern Europe angle, I think I understood from yet another climber I know to have it, that the condition is particularly prevalent in populations with strong Scandanavian or even Viking genetic links. In which case, climbers in the North-east should be in for a particularly hard time of it.

That figures, I was born in Gateshead and all my family are from the North-east. I must also be the  great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, grandson of a proud Viking warrior (who presumably suffered from 'lumpy palm syndrome').

[richdraws]

I have that manky hand syndrome too, I think gymnsatics initially inflamed it (rings strength stuff). It was pretty painful when I first started climbing. I find there is a strong link between indoor climbing on jugs where you get all your hand round the hold and the pain and immobility in my minging hands. If I stay away from yarding it on big holds I can go for long periods without any bother from the duputryens. I just have to contend with sore finger joints instead. 

[BenF]

Thanks Bonjoy and Andy for the quick lesson in Dupuytren's.  The genetic stuff you both mention is pretty much exactly what my Mum said (and just goes to show that what she says is usually correct ). 

[dave k]

I too have this scar tissue- have been wondering what it was for years. Both hands ring finger left hand, base of little finger right hand. Sounds like it is really common amongst climbers.

 

[BenF]

It does indeed appear to be very common amongst climbers, almost a badge of honour on this forum. 
If you ain't got lumps on your palms, you can't be in our gang! 

[Ballsofcottonwool]

I saw several different GPs about the lump in the middle of my left palm and was always told "its a callous, just file it off", only found out what it was when i saw a thread about it on UKC

[Bonjoy]

Jeez, that's eight people with DC that this thread has turned up!
I bet this is going to get more and more common over the next few years as the long term effects of improved indoor facilities start to show up.

[SA Chris]

I reckon we should start a support group / registered charity for sufferers, raise funds and spend funds on recouperative holidays for sufferers. To font.

[dontfollowme]

Does anyone who suffers have a photo of their palm? I have hard bits of skin on my palm but just assumed they were calluses...

[Jim]

I reckon we should start a support group / registered charity for sufferers, raise funds and spend funds on recouperative holidays for sufferers. To font.

How about a big elephant pit to throw ya bunch of freaks into instead 

[saltbeef]

watch wha ya say jim, you're prime fodder for dc. white male, nearing middle age, likes a drink...
!

[Houdini]

Straight in with the Elephants, Jim?!  That's a bit OTT. 

No Tigers, Lions maybe?  ???




You're all very naughty boys!

[BenF]

I reckon we should start a support group / registered charity for sufferers, raise funds and spend funds on recouperative holidays for sufferers. To font.

I'm happy to be a recipient of any charitable work that you may do Chris.  Get on with it and book me that ferry; my need is great, my suffering immense and the only respite that I can imagine is working out on some slopers pretty soon.

Perhaps you could start this charity right now to make the most of the public's post xmas guilt ridden donation potential.    I can imagine little figures in the doorways of climbing shops and walls.  Just like the ones in that other thread (I forget which one), complete with slots in the top of their heads and instead of a caliper they could have lumpy hands, chalk bags and a pad on their backs.  The public won't fail to drop money into the heads of such pathetic little figures. 

[SA Chris]

I think we need to register as a charity first, then hire some full time "fundraisers" to prise open the public's wallets and bank accounts.

Who want's to do the Advertising?

[BenF]

Who wants to do the sitting around in an office making up poncy adverts to sell things that people don't want to people who can't afford it?

Is it paid well?

[SA Chris]

I've heard of some extortionate rates charged to here for single page crappy adverts in trade rags, so I would say yes.

[Somebody's Fool]

watch wha ya say jim, you're prime fodder for dc. white male, nearing middle age, likes a drink...
!

I think he already had it when he was a Rover-driving youth.  He massaged the swelling everyday for a year and a half until his record-breaking lumps had been banished from his palms and into his forearms.  Leaving him looking like east Manchester's answer to Fred Nicole. 
That his arms contain mainly scar tissue accounts for the fact that he can't climb 8b+. That right Jim?

[Jim]

its like... you can... read my mind

[chappers]

thinking about it, I remember my grandad had it..

my grandad also suffers from this condition. he was a professional cricket player (not sure if there is a relationship between the two). his hands are messed up, cant straighten quite a few of his fingers, twinned with broken ends of quite a few fingers they look a right state, dont let yours progress too much!!

i also have one, on my left palm, no pain, thick skin build up, no loss of mobility, but i often massage it in fear of getting "grandpa jack fucked up hands syndrome"