[john horscroft]

Interesting!  As an absolutely surfing ingenue, thanks for the etiquette pointers.  I guess for learners like me it's the apparently obvious stuff like hanging around inside and getting in everybody's way that is the killer.  Generally it's not through choice that I end up in that position, I'm justed fucked and need a rest 

Note to self:  Must get fitter 

[Idol eyes]

Guess what... Two foot and super clean again. Magic seaweed is incorrect!

[SA Chris]

Magic seaweed is incorrect!

You sound surprised!

[Idol eyes]

Just seen foundry Rob @ Tolcarne... Fistral was perfect!

[Falling Down]

Disclaimer: I'm not condoning or encouraging localism.

I think there's trouble in trying to compare climbing with surfing in that the resources available to the former are far greater and available through a much wider variety of conditions and as a result can tolerate larger numbers of participants without it feeling overcrowded.

There are several breaks I can think of that only work on say 30 (maybe 50 if I'm being really generous) days a year and usually only for a window of 4 hours either side of high or low tide. Many only work far less than that.  If we have a swell at a 10 second period with 7 waves a set we are going to see a mean of 5 to 7 waves every 7 to 12 minutes so a maximum of 30 to 35 waves an hour that could be ridden meaning an absolute maximum of 100 to 150 waves in a single day that could be surfed.  I think I'm being generous with numbers here without taking into account the limitations of daylight and water temperature.

Now on the Harmers Wood thread, JB quite rightly points out the benefits of leaving problems undocumented at certain bouldering crags in order to encourage and promote the value of an exploratory approach.  My personal opinion is that there are certain areas of the UK coastline that are comparable to entire crags with specific breaks the equivalent of individual problems or routes and as such should not be documented to the nth degree nor plastered over the internet.

We use the term Esoteric often in climbing to denote a particular crag that will yield its value and secrets to those prepared to put the effort in and sacrifice an easy fix for a reward.  Usually this takes time, experience and effort to discover and it's no coincidence that we use occult terminology to describe the place and experience.

From Wikipedia (yes I'm fully aware of the irony) "Esoteric knowledge, in the dictionary (non-scholarly) sense, is thus that which is available only to a narrow circle of "enlightened", "initiated", or specially educated people.[2] Esoteric items may be known as esoterica.[3] In contrast, exoteric knowledge is knowledge that is well-known or public, or perceived as informally canonic in society at large.

Finally, it can be noted that esotericism, beside its scholarly and dictionary definitions, can be used in a loose, popular sense: not in order to denote e.g. mystical knowledge or practice, but rather informally to mean any perception or knowledge that is for the advanced individual such as theoretical physics, or that pertains to the minutiae of a particular discipline, such as "esoteric" baseball statistics."

So in the same way that the specific problems of Harmers Wood, The Grinah Stones and other locations should remain undocumented to reward the initiates, so should specific breaks. Perhaps the issue is one of understanding scale relative to available resources and experience?

I have no problem with sections of the Welsh, Cornish, Scottish, English and Irish coastline being described as offering considerable possibilities of surf for those of an exploratory bent but I do have an issue with specific spots being documented to the finest detail including pictures/video and conditions reports being posted all over Magic Seaweed and other internet forums.

And there endeth the chin stroking... 

[granticus]

I have no problem with sections of the Welsh, Cornish, Scottish, English and Irish coastline being described as offering considerable possibilities of surf for those of an exploratory bent but I do have an issue with specific spots being documented to the finest detail including pictures/video and conditions reports being posted all over Magic Seaweed and other internet forums.

  Once upon a time Exmoor was in this category before folks started blabbin about it, interestingly in a recent MSW article about Luke Steadman's visit to Damian Hirst's palace in N Devon, there was a photo of the left from above and the spot wasn't named in fact a smoke screen was put up.  This is what the majority of ND surfer's would request and I don't think it's unreasonable to make people do some work to find a place. 

People are gonna start homing in on these N Wales spots soon enough if photos like this keep appearing on MSW.

[SA Chris]

Let's face it, finding breaks somewhere like N Devon isn't exactly rocket science. On a big swell day just avoid the usual honeypots, and instead drive along the coastal road, stop at various points and look. Hey presto, what's that I can see between the trees? You don't even have to get out the car or walk any distance.

Lynmouth and many N Devon spots Like P****** W*** were known about years before the internet became a primary source of information. And with Googlemaps it's even easier.

Any exposed coastline is going to have waves of one sort or another, just takes a few hours to go out and find them.

[Johnny Brown]

Nice pic!

I'm not really qualified to comment on any of this, being deeply shit at surfing, but I don't see any problems with what FD suggests.

The problem is with the aggro I might encounter - I still don't get how anyone identifies a local to give them priority, or how a local spots who has found the break by fair means or internet. In reality these good intentions of maintaining esoterica just turn into cliquey bullshit - I really can't get my head round locals resenting new faces at a break, or threats issued on the net over mention of  name or posting of a photo. The modern age means info will get out anyway, but this attitude seems accepted as fine in surfing. As Chris said, a beach is a lot easier to spot on a map than a crag, the best you can hope is the herd will stick to the famous spots and the best 'secret' spots are far from a road.

[SA Chris]

I personally think the reality of localism is nowhere near as bad as the reputation. You hear all these rumours of aggression and nasty shit going on, but in reality I have encountered very little of it. If you travel in a small group (3 at most) and don't all paddle out together, smile and are friendly, don't hang out in your little huddle, and are respectful of other people's wave count and share a bit of stoke, you are unlikely to come across any of this so called aggro, unless you come across the local nutjob.

[Johnny Brown]

That's good to know. I tend to avoid other surfers, mainly because I'm embarrassingly shit and spend most of the time trapped inside, but also in case I piss them off, due to the aforementioned, and not being local enough. An aussie mate gave up surfing due to violent localism - wasn't even allowed on his local break - so maybe I've got a bad impression.

[Falling Down]

What Chris said.

JB - Don't try and avoid other surfers, 99% are absolutely fine.  Your mate in Aus is unlucky.

[gme]

I have only come across aggro once in the UK and it was very out of order, however the guy in question is just a dick who i think would look for a fight at church on a sunday morning, so hardly a typical surfer. So i think you are very unlikely to come across it here unless you act like a dick.

I have surfed every coast in the UK and ireland that has surf worth noting without issue. I am not saying i have been welcomed with open arms at every spot (and would not expect to) but i have not come across what you would call hostile locals.

I have also travelled a lot all over the world surfing and only encountered problems in Spain where in one instance (with FD actually) we were told that if we were not from Asturias to get the fuck out of the water. We didn't and nothing happened.

So the likely hood of you coming across any problems are pretty slim.

However i do find it weird that you think all surfers should be over the moon and delighted to see car loads of other surfers turning up at there quiet waves, waves that (following your advice) they have walked further and gone round new bends to find solitude away from the crowds.

As waves get busy the ethics of waiting your turn and politely offering waves to each other goes out of the way. Its a mathematical fact, as FD tried to prove, that the more people the less waves there are per person, so as it gets busy people will start to hassle to make sure they get there share. This is competition not localism.

Granaticus

The east coast is not localised at all if you play the game right. Van loads of pasties hitting up the media slut left hander every time it works have maybe soured the locals a bit, but not to an agressive level.

Anytime you want to come up i will be happy to show you around as i am sure you would keep the info to yourself and not post it all over MSW. Hopefully you could return the favour when i am occasionally down your end of the country.

[SA Chris]

Your mate in Aus is unlucky.

And without knowing your mate, you have wonder if behind every story lies a story.

[Johnny Brown]

However i do find it weird that you think all surfers should be over the moon and delighted to see car loads of other surfers turning up at there quiet waves

You don't need to be delighted, just don't be miserable. If you were surly to me at the Plantation I'd assume you were a wanker - no matter how busy it was. I can't see a difference here. And I'd never be so arrogant as to call somewhere 'mine', even though even Ron says it is.

without knowing your mate

One of the nicest guys I've ever met.

[gme]

But if the fact that the number of people at stanage was directly impacting on how much fun you were having i cant believe that you would not be pissed off.

If not then you are lucky to be able to keep a happy mind set through anything, as i certainly cant.

[slackline]

But if the fact that the number of people at stanage was directly impacting on how much fun you were having i cant believe that you would not be pissed off.

If not then you are lucky to be able to keep a happy mind set through anything, as i certainly cant.

Answered further above, he'd not be pissed off, but would instead go somewhere else and return to Stanage at a time when its quiet.

[Johnny Brown]

Actually I'm pretty well noted as a misery. But one thing that does not, and will not ever, get me down is meeting people enjoying the outdoors for the same reasons that I am. Its such a life-enriching thing it genuinely makes me happy to see folk doing it. You've had your chance on these breaks in the past, isn't it a bit unfair to resent others doing the same?

[SA Chris]

One of the nicest guys I've ever met.

I'm sure he is, but anyone can be a victim of circumstance.

[Probes]

quote.. People are gonna start homing in on these N Wales spots soon enough if photos like this keep appearing on MSW.


[/quote]


If thats where i think it is, it doesnt matter as it only looks like that once a year anyway.

[granticus]

The east coast is not localised at all if you play the game right. Van loads of pasties hitting up the media slut left hander every time it works have maybe soured the locals a bit, but not to an agressive level.

Anytime you want to come up i will be happy to show you around as i am sure you would keep the info to yourself and not post it all over MSW. Hopefully you could return the favour when i am occasionally down your end of the country.

No troublems, would happily return the favour and happy to show any folk around.

It can be disheartening to turn up somewhere and find it swarming with people but I guess it makes it more special when you get there and find it firing & empty. 

JB don't worry too much about the aggro you might encounter.  I began surfing regularly 6 years ago when I moved SW.  I have surfed/paddled out alone for the majority of that time and I was a complete at utter KOOK at the beginning.  Over these years I have been shouted at, stared down and made a lot of stupid mistakes which was all part of the learning experience.  Sometimes eating a little humble pie and realising what a twat you're being is healthy.  So 6 years down the line, I sometimes paddle out with a friend or 2 and after a lot of persistence, I don't drop in on people deliberately or by accident, I don't ditch my board when a wall of white water is coming at me, I don't snake, I know a lot friends in the water (some of whom gave me grief when I started out), I am respected by them, I am competetive in the water and I can surf to a reasonable standard.  I love to surf, I hate to see any hostility on the land or in the sea. 

[Johnny Brown]

anyone can be a victim of circumstance.

Hmmm, not sure I follow you there.

Anyway, if nothing else I've got a much better understanding of localism from this (as a seperate issue form behaviour in the water). Bullshit or not, its obviously pretty deeply rooted in surfing's culture.

Good to see the guy who posted that pic has the signature 'fuck localism, teach respect'. 

[Aussiegav]

usually on most matters like this i'd be taking the piss and saying shit to wind people up.

however, not this time.

after 31 years of surfing, i believe that there is a gross mis understanding of localism, which some people have already hinted at earlier in thread.

 i have realised the surfing community and any surf session can be broken down into differing types of surfers and attitudes.

at it is here where the term localism gets used as a term to cover any form of negative behaviour of surfing.

guys who surf a break regularly tend to regard themselves as locals to the break or call themselves regulars, most of which generally dont live locally. locals / regulars usually know every one in the line up by first name and they know their name. these guys generally get a lion share of the sets, especially on the reef/point breaks. within the regulars/ locals there is unwritten pecking order on who gets the waves.

now when other surfers come and surf these breaks obviously they get put at the bottom of that pecking order. as the crowd builds, less waves get ridden and as a result people get pissed off. and thats when the rules of ettiquete get bend or thrown aside.
those at out of the top of the pecking order start getting annoyed, this can be regulars and also non regulars.
throw in a couple of visiting surfers who are of a good standard, which generally come in two forms;
1. those whho realise they are on a trip and time is limited, so they go straight to the best take spot and hassle and get wave after wave. that fat shit from wales who makes boards is notorious for this.
2. then we have those who paddle to the fringe of the peak / pack and gauge the crwod standard  / vibe and slowly ease their wave count and quality. generally show casing their talent when some one goes over the falls and they whip around and free fall efortlessly into a barrel or come off the bottom and go beyond vertical off the top. point proven, and then they get given some freindly hoots from all and sundry.

now we have instant access to interent and people now feel like spreading the stoke or gloating their stoke by putting images / videos of the waves they have had. this unfortunately is how it will be from now on. rightly or wrongly we will just have to get used to it.


people nows days want to be spoon fed with information. hance the popularity and success of MSW and other surf sites. add to this the speed of our lifestyles and rapidly depletetin free time, when we want to surf we want good waves and we'll travell to get them. the UK is a very small place, and driving from one side to the other can be done overnight.

dissapointment is the cause for negative behviour in the surf, not localism


people get angry, annoyed, nasty, rude in the water because the surf is panning out as they liked. and its that disspointment that causes the problem. we want / expect too much from our surf now days (as with everything else). i'll be honest and say i used to be very bad at this. as FD and GME will agree.

but when i find the session going pear shaped i do three things which nowdays makes me enjoy the session far more and washes away the dissapointment and effects of the shit behaviour of others.
these are;
1. one good turn will consitute a good surf
2. when you're getting pissed off, be grateful that you managed to get in. because there is atleast 100 other people who have missed out
3. smile and say hello to evryone, hoot people on sets / good turns and always offer beginners advise otr a friendly word of encouragement. we were all there once.



as a tip from an old shit like me, if your not in sync with the oceans. look at your watch and think that you have just got out. note the time, and you will get a wave within the next 5 - 10mins. by resetting the time mentally the previous 20 -30mins that felt like hours will be regarded as another session


if you do these 3 things in every session you'll get more out of your surfing without having done much.

if people are putting images on the internet, fuckem, dont let it get to you. theres nothing you can do about, just do the 3 things above and you'll have a great session.

no one will drop in you or snake you if your nice in the water.

being pissed off / dissapointed is not localism.

[SA Chris]

that fat shit from wales who makes boards.

LOL. If you carry on posting sensible stuff like this you may get dangerously close to some more wad points.

[Aussiegav]

may i add that it is hard to ignore fuckwits when things aren't going as you planned.

and then there are some people in the water  who really do need an enema of the brain

[Idol eyes]

Israeli surfers in Sri Lanka...
Total agro????
It's totally going of is nut down here!!!
Massive swell window!
All the so called secret spots up north Devon way are going to be on?