[Fiend]

The deal is: I have a good friend and climbing partner who is vegetarian and has been for many years. He has a reasonable veggie diet of the standard good veggie cooking (pasta, pulses, veg etc etc). He climbs trad regularly as well as sport and some bouldering.

What he wants to know is: Does anyone have experience of comparing veggie and carnivore diets and the effect they have on one's energy levels for climbing?? In particular, switching from veggie to carnivore and vice-versa?? Are there any particular nutritional aspects of meat that could be important for the energy and wellbeing needed for climbing, and that could cause a lack of energy in a veggie diet??

Cheers for any SCIENCE yo.

[richieb]

Well I cant back up this with any science but I went through this kind of thing a couple of years ago.
Had been veggie for about 10 years and was convinced I wasnt getting enough from the food I ate when it came to training or on trips away. Everyone else always seemed to have more energy and get fitter/stronger faster than I did. 
So...about a month before a trip to the valley I decided to go back to eating meat. I kinda figured if i trained and climbed at the same rate I would turn into some kinda beast but to be honest nothing happened at all. I didnt feel any different, didnt put any weight on (which I was abit worried about) and still had the same energy issues during long days out.

I did however start to enjoy food much more

I think its probably a very individual thing and maybe worth a try for someone whos feeling short changed out of their veggie fodder, but its not a given that you will feel any better after a few spare ribs. 

[andy popp]

I can't back this up with science either but can offer some anecdotal evidence. I've been vegan for nearly 18 years and in that time I feel I have climbed to a resonably respectable level. I don't feel my diet was ever a principal barrier to improvement. In particular, I'm surprised you focus on the issue of energy as a vegetarian or vegan diet requires no compromises in this area. I was capable of very big days out at home and abroad (including Himalayas). Just think, what do marathon runners and triathletes eat before competing? What is problematical is protein, recovery from training and strenght/muscle gain. Some say I might be a living embodiment of this problem, being notoriously weak (in my time in Sheff it was joked that only Seb was weaker). But I thik even this was more due to physiology - I'm just not one of those people who gain muscle. Besides, perhaps most importantly, I doubt many people on here train or perform to a level where diet becomes a really significant factor

[Houdini]

Been vegetarian for 18 years also.  Not noticed any difference in general energy levels; huge difference in guff levels.  Though they certainly smell less than carnivores.

Wouldn't say I've ever had a problem gaining muscle either.  I'm convinced performance is more psyche than diet-related.

[Fiend]

In particular, I'm surprised you focus on the issue of energy as a vegetarian or vegan diet requires no compromises in this area.

Well, I'm going by what he says, although he did acknowledge that a slight tendency towards sugary foods could be the main issue with energy levels. He described feeling drained, physically and mentally, after doing a few routes.

He is also concerned about not getting enough iron. What effect that may or may not have I don't know.

(Thing is, I don't know how any of this stuff works, if I go a day without eating some form of dead animal in, it's a rare occurence. I put shit in, shit shit out, and climb okay - so I'm just passing on his concerns)

What is problematical is protein, recovery from training and strenght/muscle gain.

Good point, that I do understand.

Besides, perhaps most importantly, I doubt many people on here train or perform to a level where diet becomes a really significant factor

Actually, there's a reason I suggested to my friend that I ask on here instead of UKClimbing 

[Stubbs]

No SCIENCE, but i switched from a meat heavy diet to vegan about two years ago, and have not had any problems with relation to training recovery or gaining muscle. I didn't lose any weight when i stopped eating meat, and I certainly didn't feel any weaker.  The most important bit of eating for me is to get a good load of carbs on board as soon as possible after training. If I don't eat straight after training I feel trrible the next day.

I think green veg like spinach has a load of iron in it.

[Nibile]

lots of meat here.
red and raw, but also lots of chicken and turkey. if i dont eat meat for three straight days, i feel like a jelly and get very angry. i reckon im training very reguraly since january, never less than two hard session per week.
i have to say that i pay alot of attention to the fats. or i try. i mean, to eat LESS of them...
i also have lots of veggie though.

last week i had a sort of lunch/english breakfast some three hours before the gym, with beans, eggs and tea, and i was feeling very powerful. (just feeling...)

[LucyB]

I stopped being veggie last year after 17 years. I'm not eating much meat, maybe once a week or fortnight on average. Not noticed a huge amount of difference, would agree with enjoying food more! It's really interesting learning to cook with meat.

I do feel pretty healthy, particularly adding the odd bit of fish in, too. The main thing I was curious about was whether I would suffer from less tendon injuries. Indeed, I have, but it has coincided with me training less (it was when I left the team), so that's a bit inconclusive, really.

My advice would be do what he feels like, a healthy diet is a healthy diet whether it includes meat or not.

[vivahate]

I would definetely say unrestricted diets containing meat offer a much greater variety of proteins, but carnivorous diets (those being purely meat based) should be avoided, as humans need more than you can get from just meat (although i suspect you meant omnivorous, which is both plant and meat). I don't see why vegetarians would not be able to get as much protein as meat eaters, as milk and egg are two of the highest quality proteins available, and quickly absorbed.(i remember seeing a big table once, perhaps in Eric Horst's 'Training for Climbing')

Apparently creatine is a good suppliment for the discrening vegetarian as it occurs naturally in red meat so you would expect a vegetarian to see more gains in whatever creatine professes to cause gains in.

Advice for you friend fiend would be that if he has no ethical qualms in trying unrestricted diets is to try them and see how it works out for him. If he's having problems with muscle soreness then perhaps its protein that he's lacking and should quaff some milk right after training. But energy is mediated more by carbohydrates so perhaps his fatigue is caused by insufficient carbohydrates?

[Nibile]

milk and eggs are good in proteins' quality, but as far as quantity theyre poor. moreover the fat percentage is high, especially in eggs.
according to many texts, the intake for a training body shoul be around one gram of proteins per kg of lean weight, that for muscular/power training, shifting to less for aerobic/endurance efforts, in favour of carbos.

and i think that only meat and fish contain all the fundamental amynoacids, the essential ones.

[Turboman]

I remember reading an interview with Claire Murphy just after she ticked some hard (V9?) roof problems in Hueco.  She attributed her rapid improvement to coming off a veggie diet and eating red meat again.  She reckoned that the difference it made in recovering from a hard session was massive.

[ouch]

I think green veg like spinach has a load of iron in it.

For your body to synthesise the iron in spinach or other greens I think you have to have vitamin C at the same time.  You might want to try drinking some orange juice whilst munching spinach leaves. 

[Loz!]

Actually, spinach contains a compound which can inhibit the iron absorbtion from other foods (can't think off the top of my head what it is).  It is still reasonably high in iron, as are other dark green vegetables, so worth munching on sometimes.  I can't say whether being vegan has affected my climbing or not, as didn't start climbing til long after I'd stopped eating meat.  I think to be honest, I'm just crap and weak generally, vegan diet or not!

 
Not climbing related..but I find I'm fairly good at long distance running without eating meat..as diet is pretty high in carbohydrate for recovery.

[webbo]

as well as climbing on a vegie diet.i've been a triathlete and a racing cyclist[mountain bike,road and cyclo cross].ive never felt my performance would improve by eating meat although i belive it might if i left off the red wine,pizza and chips.
when i was a triathlete i used to try and follow a diet used by dave scott who was one of the gods of triathlon back in the day.he'd come up with this diet after experimenting with various regimes.
basically its low fat,high carb,medium protein.
lots of fruit and green veg,pasta,rice,pulses, tortillas,cottage cheese and hot sauce[tabisco]
he would allow himself the odd beer/glass of wine and the occasional peice of cheese.
i found that this diet did improve performance but i could only last a couple of weeks before falling off the wagon,dave scott himself said its like cold turkey trying to stick the diet. 

[Monolith]

As a sideline note, the tannins in tea inhibit iron absorption. So have a think about how much and when you're drinking tea.

I was brought up as a vegetarian for 20 years and have only really felt the iron/vitamins deficit when I've been stressed out with uni work. That's probably more to do with wildly differing eating patterns as well as the actual content, but it did seem like the meat eaters in the same boat had one up on me at times. 

[Paz]

Iron deficiency? You really want to try Stout like your ancestors.  Now you may not know, as I have just found out, that Guinness is not vegetarian, but there are many other fine stouts on the market if you don't fancy drinking Mackeson's Granny Juice even though it's nice.  I feel a new thread coming along. 

In my view , as well as by psyche, energy levels are affected by quality of sleep (which may is affected by drink) and a proper breakfast.  Porridge is the proper old school solution which is indeed bo', but they made this genius stuff called Tiger Power last year.  I climbed about four pitches on a bowl of that alone no problem, but I can't find it any more.  It was dear but reallly good if you were in too much of a rush to have porridge and you don't need sugar on either.  Salt your porridge like I and scotland do - does anyone else get salt cravings after a day climbing?  Probably a de hydration thing but a good excuse for a bag of crisps, of which there are many fine examples on the market...

[8A]

Salt your porridge like I and scotland do - does anyone else get salt cravings after a day climbing?  Probably a de hydration thing but a good excuse for a bag of crisps, of which there are many fine examples on the market...

 

The Paz we know and love has finally gone crazy ...

[The Sausage]

i think the thing with meat is it's very quick and easy and you don't need to make much effort. getting full value from your veg protein (unless it's soya based) means combining different sorts of things e.g. pulses+grains (lentils and rice, beans on toast). stubbs is the most energetic man i know, and he's a vegan. but then again, he does listen to rather aggressive music. and has too many pairs of (vegan) trainers... protein powder (i think) is a good thing, and is used by lots of different types of sports people. i agree with andy popp, it's unlikely that many of us train hard enough for diet to be a limitinf factor.
If energy levels are a problem, things like gluten or lactose intolerance may be the culprit. I'm starting a new thread on de-toxing, it may help...

[Sloper]

In short, we have evolved to be omnivores as such avoiding animal protein entirely is unhealthy.  While it would be impossible to have a proper double blind trial in this area (too many subjective criteria, eg do I feel better and too many variables, ie are you climber better because you're training more or recovering more quickly because of other factors). 

However even given this, as climbing is an activity which relies on strength/power/power endurance and endurance (in different proportions) which is of course dependent upon 'muscle' (development and repair of) and I would be surpised if there's any relaible peer reviewed source that argues that an absence of meat/fish etc (with the essential amino acids and fat solouble vitamins etc) these contain contributes to better muscle development faster recovery from exercise / injury.

This does not mean to say that if you're a vegan you're weak, or if you start eating meat after years of not doing so you'll suddenly get stronger / better etc rather that to say that each diet is equally *valid* in terms of nutrition is simply false.  To suggest otherwise is akin to believing that a petrol car can run on water.

[joswald]

Might have been said but if I remember GCSE food and nutrition correctly you can't obtain Vitamin B12 from a vegan diet. However you said veggie.
Also you need to get your protein from various sources if you're a vegan however I assume you are referring to eating dairy too.
James

[slackline]

Might have been said but if I remember GCSE food and nutrition correctly you can't obtain Vitamin B12 from a vegan diet. However you said veggie.
Also you need to get your protein from various sources if you're a vegan however I assume you are referring to eating dairy too.
James

Vitamin B12 == Marmite 

[chriss]

I went Vegan about 2 years ago after eating a heavy meat diet for various reasons. I'm stronger, fitter & healthier than ever. I'm also poorer & less popular on dinner dates too, but who cares...
The whole protein myth is a bit of a shitter really, it's all about combining different foods, your body also has a store so will make up anyshort fall as long as you don't repeatedly raid it without re stocking it. As for B12, just eat fortified foods or buy some pills. Get on the VEGAN SOCIETY website, tons of info & book available.

[tommytwotone]

My ex was a proper (i.e. no fish) veggie, so I spent a good long time being effectively veggie myself.

However, and sadly no SCIENCE to back this up, but if I'd had a meaty dinner the night before I reckon I experienced a definite increase in power for bouldering.

That said, she's certainly no slouch (in fact I'm pretty sure you know her Fiend), and was leading overhanging burly jamming filth / burning me off bouldering no matter what I'd eaten. Seems eating a non-meat diet hasn't held her back climbing-wise!

[benpritch]

carl lewis was a vegan

[Jim]

old golden hooves is veggie and seems to be permanently injured.
You need a good steak dinner lad.
2 olives and a lettuce leaf just don't cut it