[Fiend]

The deal is: I have a good friend and climbing partner who is vegetarian and has been for many years. He has a reasonable veggie diet of the standard good veggie cooking (pasta, pulses, veg etc etc). He climbs trad regularly as well as sport and some bouldering.

What he wants to know is: Does anyone have experience of comparing veggie and carnivore diets and the effect they have on one's energy levels for climbing?? In particular, switching from veggie to carnivore and vice-versa?? Are there any particular nutritional aspects of meat that could be important for the energy and wellbeing needed for climbing, and that could cause a lack of energy in a veggie diet??

Cheers for any SCIENCE yo.

[richieb]

Well I cant back up this with any science but I went through this kind of thing a couple of years ago.
Had been veggie for about 10 years and was convinced I wasnt getting enough from the food I ate when it came to training or on trips away. Everyone else always seemed to have more energy and get fitter/stronger faster than I did. 
So...about a month before a trip to the valley I decided to go back to eating meat. I kinda figured if i trained and climbed at the same rate I would turn into some kinda beast but to be honest nothing happened at all. I didnt feel any different, didnt put any weight on (which I was abit worried about) and still had the same energy issues during long days out.

I did however start to enjoy food much more

I think its probably a very individual thing and maybe worth a try for someone whos feeling short changed out of their veggie fodder, but its not a given that you will feel any better after a few spare ribs. 

[andy popp]

I can't back this up with science either but can offer some anecdotal evidence. I've been vegan for nearly 18 years and in that time I feel I have climbed to a resonably respectable level. I don't feel my diet was ever a principal barrier to improvement. In particular, I'm surprised you focus on the issue of energy as a vegetarian or vegan diet requires no compromises in this area. I was capable of very big days out at home and abroad (including Himalayas). Just think, what do marathon runners and triathletes eat before competing? What is problematical is protein, recovery from training and strenght/muscle gain. Some say I might be a living embodiment of this problem, being notoriously weak (in my time in Sheff it was joked that only Seb was weaker). But I thik even this was more due to physiology - I'm just not one of those people who gain muscle. Besides, perhaps most importantly, I doubt many people on here train or perform to a level where diet becomes a really significant factor

[Houdini]

Been vegetarian for 18 years also.  Not noticed any difference in general energy levels; huge difference in guff levels.  Though they certainly smell less than carnivores.

Wouldn't say I've ever had a problem gaining muscle either.  I'm convinced performance is more psyche than diet-related.

[Fiend]

In particular, I'm surprised you focus on the issue of energy as a vegetarian or vegan diet requires no compromises in this area.

Well, I'm going by what he says, although he did acknowledge that a slight tendency towards sugary foods could be the main issue with energy levels. He described feeling drained, physically and mentally, after doing a few routes.

He is also concerned about not getting enough iron. What effect that may or may not have I don't know.

(Thing is, I don't know how any of this stuff works, if I go a day without eating some form of dead animal in, it's a rare occurence. I put shit in, shit shit out, and climb okay - so I'm just passing on his concerns)

What is problematical is protein, recovery from training and strenght/muscle gain.

Good point, that I do understand.

Besides, perhaps most importantly, I doubt many people on here train or perform to a level where diet becomes a really significant factor

Actually, there's a reason I suggested to my friend that I ask on here instead of UKClimbing 

[Stubbs]

No SCIENCE, but i switched from a meat heavy diet to vegan about two years ago, and have not had any problems with relation to training recovery or gaining muscle. I didn't lose any weight when i stopped eating meat, and I certainly didn't feel any weaker.  The most important bit of eating for me is to get a good load of carbs on board as soon as possible after training. If I don't eat straight after training I feel trrible the next day.

I think green veg like spinach has a load of iron in it.

[Nibile]

lots of meat here.
red and raw, but also lots of chicken and turkey. if i dont eat meat for three straight days, i feel like a jelly and get very angry. i reckon im training very reguraly since january, never less than two hard session per week.
i have to say that i pay alot of attention to the fats. or i try. i mean, to eat LESS of them...
i also have lots of veggie though.

last week i had a sort of lunch/english breakfast some three hours before the gym, with beans, eggs and tea, and i was feeling very powerful. (just feeling...)

[LucyB]

I stopped being veggie last year after 17 years. I'm not eating much meat, maybe once a week or fortnight on average. Not noticed a huge amount of difference, would agree with enjoying food more! It's really interesting learning to cook with meat.

I do feel pretty healthy, particularly adding the odd bit of fish in, too. The main thing I was curious about was whether I would suffer from less tendon injuries. Indeed, I have, but it has coincided with me training less (it was when I left the team), so that's a bit inconclusive, really.

My advice would be do what he feels like, a healthy diet is a healthy diet whether it includes meat or not.

[vivahate]

I would definetely say unrestricted diets containing meat offer a much greater variety of proteins, but carnivorous diets (those being purely meat based) should be avoided, as humans need more than you can get from just meat (although i suspect you meant omnivorous, which is both plant and meat). I don't see why vegetarians would not be able to get as much protein as meat eaters, as milk and egg are two of the highest quality proteins available, and quickly absorbed.(i remember seeing a big table once, perhaps in Eric Horst's 'Training for Climbing')

Apparently creatine is a good suppliment for the discrening vegetarian as it occurs naturally in red meat so you would expect a vegetarian to see more gains in whatever creatine professes to cause gains in.

Advice for you friend fiend would be that if he has no ethical qualms in trying unrestricted diets is to try them and see how it works out for him. If he's having problems with muscle soreness then perhaps its protein that he's lacking and should quaff some milk right after training. But energy is mediated more by carbohydrates so perhaps his fatigue is caused by insufficient carbohydrates?

[Nibile]

milk and eggs are good in proteins' quality, but as far as quantity theyre poor. moreover the fat percentage is high, especially in eggs.
according to many texts, the intake for a training body shoul be around one gram of proteins per kg of lean weight, that for muscular/power training, shifting to less for aerobic/endurance efforts, in favour of carbos.

and i think that only meat and fish contain all the fundamental amynoacids, the essential ones.

[Turboman]

I remember reading an interview with Claire Murphy just after she ticked some hard (V9?) roof problems in Hueco.  She attributed her rapid improvement to coming off a veggie diet and eating red meat again.  She reckoned that the difference it made in recovering from a hard session was massive.

[ouch]

I think green veg like spinach has a load of iron in it.

For your body to synthesise the iron in spinach or other greens I think you have to have vitamin C at the same time.  You might want to try drinking some orange juice whilst munching spinach leaves. 

[Loz!]

Actually, spinach contains a compound which can inhibit the iron absorbtion from other foods (can't think off the top of my head what it is).  It is still reasonably high in iron, as are other dark green vegetables, so worth munching on sometimes.  I can't say whether being vegan has affected my climbing or not, as didn't start climbing til long after I'd stopped eating meat.  I think to be honest, I'm just crap and weak generally, vegan diet or not!

 
Not climbing related..but I find I'm fairly good at long distance running without eating meat..as diet is pretty high in carbohydrate for recovery.

[webbo]

as well as climbing on a vegie diet.i've been a triathlete and a racing cyclist[mountain bike,road and cyclo cross].ive never felt my performance would improve by eating meat although i belive it might if i left off the red wine,pizza and chips.
when i was a triathlete i used to try and follow a diet used by dave scott who was one of the gods of triathlon back in the day.he'd come up with this diet after experimenting with various regimes.
basically its low fat,high carb,medium protein.
lots of fruit and green veg,pasta,rice,pulses, tortillas,cottage cheese and hot sauce[tabisco]
he would allow himself the odd beer/glass of wine and the occasional peice of cheese.
i found that this diet did improve performance but i could only last a couple of weeks before falling off the wagon,dave scott himself said its like cold turkey trying to stick the diet. 

[Monolith]

As a sideline note, the tannins in tea inhibit iron absorption. So have a think about how much and when you're drinking tea.

I was brought up as a vegetarian for 20 years and have only really felt the iron/vitamins deficit when I've been stressed out with uni work. That's probably more to do with wildly differing eating patterns as well as the actual content, but it did seem like the meat eaters in the same boat had one up on me at times. 

[Paz]

Iron deficiency? You really want to try Stout like your ancestors.  Now you may not know, as I have just found out, that Guinness is not vegetarian, but there are many other fine stouts on the market if you don't fancy drinking Mackeson's Granny Juice even though it's nice.  I feel a new thread coming along. 

In my view , as well as by psyche, energy levels are affected by quality of sleep (which may is affected by drink) and a proper breakfast.  Porridge is the proper old school solution which is indeed bo', but they made this genius stuff called Tiger Power last year.  I climbed about four pitches on a bowl of that alone no problem, but I can't find it any more.  It was dear but reallly good if you were in too much of a rush to have porridge and you don't need sugar on either.  Salt your porridge like I and scotland do - does anyone else get salt cravings after a day climbing?  Probably a de hydration thing but a good excuse for a bag of crisps, of which there are many fine examples on the market...

[8A]

Salt your porridge like I and scotland do - does anyone else get salt cravings after a day climbing?  Probably a de hydration thing but a good excuse for a bag of crisps, of which there are many fine examples on the market...

 

The Paz we know and love has finally gone crazy ...

[The Sausage]

i think the thing with meat is it's very quick and easy and you don't need to make much effort. getting full value from your veg protein (unless it's soya based) means combining different sorts of things e.g. pulses+grains (lentils and rice, beans on toast). stubbs is the most energetic man i know, and he's a vegan. but then again, he does listen to rather aggressive music. and has too many pairs of (vegan) trainers... protein powder (i think) is a good thing, and is used by lots of different types of sports people. i agree with andy popp, it's unlikely that many of us train hard enough for diet to be a limitinf factor.
If energy levels are a problem, things like gluten or lactose intolerance may be the culprit. I'm starting a new thread on de-toxing, it may help...

[Sloper]

In short, we have evolved to be omnivores as such avoiding animal protein entirely is unhealthy.  While it would be impossible to have a proper double blind trial in this area (too many subjective criteria, eg do I feel better and too many variables, ie are you climber better because you're training more or recovering more quickly because of other factors). 

However even given this, as climbing is an activity which relies on strength/power/power endurance and endurance (in different proportions) which is of course dependent upon 'muscle' (development and repair of) and I would be surpised if there's any relaible peer reviewed source that argues that an absence of meat/fish etc (with the essential amino acids and fat solouble vitamins etc) these contain contributes to better muscle development faster recovery from exercise / injury.

This does not mean to say that if you're a vegan you're weak, or if you start eating meat after years of not doing so you'll suddenly get stronger / better etc rather that to say that each diet is equally *valid* in terms of nutrition is simply false.  To suggest otherwise is akin to believing that a petrol car can run on water.

[joswald]

Might have been said but if I remember GCSE food and nutrition correctly you can't obtain Vitamin B12 from a vegan diet. However you said veggie.
Also you need to get your protein from various sources if you're a vegan however I assume you are referring to eating dairy too.
James

[slackline]

Might have been said but if I remember GCSE food and nutrition correctly you can't obtain Vitamin B12 from a vegan diet. However you said veggie.
Also you need to get your protein from various sources if you're a vegan however I assume you are referring to eating dairy too.
James

Vitamin B12 == Marmite 

[chriss]

I went Vegan about 2 years ago after eating a heavy meat diet for various reasons. I'm stronger, fitter & healthier than ever. I'm also poorer & less popular on dinner dates too, but who cares...
The whole protein myth is a bit of a shitter really, it's all about combining different foods, your body also has a store so will make up anyshort fall as long as you don't repeatedly raid it without re stocking it. As for B12, just eat fortified foods or buy some pills. Get on the VEGAN SOCIETY website, tons of info & book available.

[tommytwotone]

My ex was a proper (i.e. no fish) veggie, so I spent a good long time being effectively veggie myself.

However, and sadly no SCIENCE to back this up, but if I'd had a meaty dinner the night before I reckon I experienced a definite increase in power for bouldering.

That said, she's certainly no slouch (in fact I'm pretty sure you know her Fiend), and was leading overhanging burly jamming filth / burning me off bouldering no matter what I'd eaten. Seems eating a non-meat diet hasn't held her back climbing-wise!

[benpritch]

carl lewis was a vegan

[Jim]

old golden hooves is veggie and seems to be permanently injured.
You need a good steak dinner lad.
2 olives and a lettuce leaf just don't cut it

[chriss]

Fuck me Jim- you sound like my dad haha!! I get a bit ill & it's all down to being vegan nothing to do with the fact the flu bug has been doing the rounds. I haven't suffered injury wise since going vegan, but I'm pretty good at eating well.
Only thing I can say is that I need to eat right if I'm away on a trip as I'll get knackered fast or won't recover that well for the next day. That said at home I never struggle, to be fair I am climbing better & stronger than ever. I also do lots of running & mountainbiking so a carb rich diet is handy for those activities.
Ben Prich- do you recon Carl Lewis was doped up a bit? I'm keen to bang the vegge/vegan drum, but I think he may of had some 'extra' help if you catch my drift...

[benpritch]

Fuck me Jim- you sound like my dad haha!! I get a bit ill & it's all down to being vegan nothing to do with the fact the flu bug has been doing the rounds. I haven't suffered injury wise since going vegan, but I'm pretty good at eating well.
Only thing I can say is that I need to eat right if I'm away on a trip as I'll get knackered fast or won't recover that well for the next day. That said at home I never struggle, to be fair I am climbing better & stronger than ever. I also do lots of running & mountainbiking so a carb rich diet is handy for those activities.
Ben Prich- do you recon Carl Lewis was doped up a bit? I'm keen to bang the vegge/vegan drum, but I think he may of had some 'extra' help if you catch my drift...

erm I thought that was all sprinters used 'extra' help so it still shows that a vegan diet can sustain an athlete at the top level i think?

[Houdini]

I'm not sure it's helpful to even mention Carl Lewis in a thread on climbing diet. 


I doubt any climber would spend as much time training, and certainly not have as much riding on success/failure as someone of Lewis' ilk - nevermind any aspect of the two disciplines having any "cross-over".

[tobym]

Pardon me for asking, but what's Carl Lewis ever done on grit?

[benpritch]

I'm not sure it's helpful to even mention Carl Lewis in a thread on climbing diet. 


I doubt any climber would spend as much time training, and certainly not have as much riding on success/failure as someone of Lewis' ilk - nevermind any aspect of the two disciplines having any "cross-over".

that was fairly vitriolic...wtf?

[Paul B]

the heights in Llanberis are currently selling "vegetarian meatballs", interesting 

[Houdini]

I'm not sure it's helpful to even mention Carl Lewis in a thread on climbing diet. 


I doubt any climber would spend as much time training, and certainly not have as much riding on success/failure as someone of Lewis' ilk - nevermind any aspect of the two disciplines having any "cross-over".

that was fairly vitriolic...wtf?

Please point out the vitriol, I'm lost... mostly due to the complete lack of vitriol in what you've quoted.   If you're not taking drugs then you should be.  That's not remotely vitriolic. 

[robertostallioni]

IN the words of a McDonalds 2008 Beijing Olympics representative

Carl Lewis diet ramblings

[benpritch]

I'm not sure it's helpful to even mention Carl Lewis in a thread on climbing diet. 


I doubt any climber would spend as much time training, and certainly not have as much riding on success/failure as someone of Lewis' ilk - nevermind any aspect of the two disciplines having any "cross-over".

that was fairly vitriolic...wtf?

Please point out the vitriol, I'm lost... mostly due to the complete lack of vitriol in what you've quoted.   If you're not taking drugs then you should be.  That's not remotely vitriolic. 

hmmm... let me see. I have presented someone involved in an athletic discipline who precludes animal products from their diet who performs at world class standards. you have in no uncertain terms dissed me for presenting said person as irrelevant and not pertinant to said discussion. i believe that this is relevant. i would like you to explain why you think it is irrelevant. but not just by saying it is irrelevant.

[chriss]

Alright Ben P I hope you don't think I was having a dig at all? Carl Lewis was an amazing sprinter & in some ways he dose cross over a bit, being a sprinter & having to have fast twitch muscle fibers & all that bollox like us fair boulderers. All I was saying is that he, like 99.9% of sprinters had 'extra' help althought the vegan diet must of helped too, well being vegan I would say that thou......

[benpritch]

not you chriss - was houdini but I'm over it now.

[Houdini]

Ben, you're imagining things.  Bizarre!

No vitriol no dissing just a simple harmless polite opinion expressed [it's there printed above] that I didn't think Lewis is pertinent in a thread on climbing diet.




Get over it?  What?  Crumbs, drawing on reserves hither to unforseen...  How do you do it?   

[benpritch]

sorry i  got all sensitive.

I'm still keen to know why you think it is irrelevant though.

here are my reasons for why i think it is relevant in spite of the performance enhancing stuff.

climbing/bouldering and sprinting are both athletic activities with an emphasis on power

climbers and sprinters require nutrition in order to perform and recover

can't think of any more

[blueskyblue]

Should be both; veggies and meat. A balanced diet will make your body healthy. 

[erm, sam]

You mention that your mate tends to sugary stuff and I think this might have a much greater influence on how energised etc they feel during the day, than whether they eat meat.
I find that snacking on short chain sugar containing food makes me feel much more weak fucked and tired, compared to only snacking on sunflower seed, pumkin seeds and apricots. You get a spike and a crash, especially when combined with stop go excersie.
At first it takes a lot of discipline, but after a while it is pretty easy to avoid the sweets and bicsuits...
Except at work at 8pm. STARVING.

[aquamarinesea]

When eating veggies, you'll get hungry easily; but when it comes to meat, it's heavier. If you need more energy, meat is better. 

[Lund]

When eating veggies, you'll get hungry easily; but when it comes to meat, it's heavier. If you need more energy, meat is better. 

Forgive me all for de-cloaking, but you're joking, right?

There's little or no evidence to suggest that a vegan diet is better for you.  Certainly, I wouldn't believe anything any self-publicising "nutritionist" said if they claimed that drinking 10 pints of pulped vegetables a day would make you a better athlete.  There are certain amino acid groups that you can't get from plants I think - and although your body can synthesize most of the AA's from a few basics, it's not more efficient to do so.  As a source of protein, although soya lentils and nuts and whatnot are good, they're not perfect.

On the other hand, neither are meat products only the answer - along with parrots and some kind of frog, we can't make vitamin C, so we'd be screwed if we didn't get that somehow.  Also, eating meat has it's own dangers - the LDL cholesterol content of animal products for example.  Some ridiculous proportion of people are actually allergic to diary.  (Native Americans are apparently all lactose intolerant?)

As to giving you more energy: you need to tailor both the type and volume of your food intake to the level and timing of activity.  If you get up and cycle 15 miles to work at or near your LT, then you're burning tonnes of sugar.  Immediately after waking.  This is going to be tough, you're going to burn lots of sugar at that level of effort, and you don't have time to get up and eat loads of carbs then wait an hour.  So your only real option is electrolytes and fructose type drinks whilst cycling, and then recover the deficit by eating complex carbs when you arrive.  If you don't drink the drink, you'll bonk during the exercise.  If you don't eat when you get to work, then you'll fall asleep because you're at an energy deficit.  If you eat protein, then you'll not restore the glycogen - and so you'll feel tired.  If you just drink loads of sugary drinks or have something too sweet when you arrive - you'll have too much simple sugar in the recover period and thus you'll get an insulin rush that's too large, go more into glucose deficit, and give yourself type II diabetes!  Good isn't it, being an athlete?

Going bouldering?  It's largely the phosphate and anaerobic energy system.  You synthesize that from glycogen etc..  You've got plenty in reserve for an hours worth of hard training even if you're absolutely nailing it - probably.  So although you do need to replace those stores, they haven't been absolutely twatted.  So you need to eat sensibly, with more carbs than a sedentary individual.  However, you also need to get more amino acids, as a muscle recovery food - and because your body burns protein anyway.  The majority of those you can get from nuts or whatnot if you insist, and you can probably make do without some of them - but it's easier to just eat chicken.

So: eat more than your lazy flatmate, but less fat.  Unless you're also an alpinist, when you'll want to chow on the fat too, but that's a different story...

[matthew]

Good answer Lund.

Apparently:- 
"The ability to digest lactose moreover only continues after childhood in roughly one-third of the population worldwide, hence, a lot of adults tend to have lactose intolerance of some sort after passing childhood. Lactose intolerance tends to affect certain demographic groups, thus the majority of adult individuals of Asian, African, Native American or Middle Eastern descent tend to suffer from some form or the other of the condition. At least 20% of Caucasians suffer a deficiency of the lactase enzyme as adults and roughly half of adult Hispanics also tend to be deficient to some degree as far as lactase is concerned."
Which I found interesting, are these the same groups which have a tendency for diabetes? Cos it's a bit mean. No milk no sugar.

When eating veggies, you'll get hungry easily; but when it comes to meat, it's heavier. If you need more energy, meat is better. 

Forgive me all for de-cloaking, but you're joking, right?

I do find that no matter how much raw veg and fruit I eat I will get hungry quite quickly.

[slackline]

Good answer Lund.

Apparently:-  
"The ability to digest lactose moreover only continues after childhood in roughly one-third of the population worldwide, hence, a lot of adults tend to have lactose intolerance of some sort after passing childhood. Lactose intolerance tends to affect certain demographic groups, thus the majority of adult individuals of Asian, African, Native American or Middle Eastern descent tend to suffer from some form or the other of the condition. At least 20% of Caucasians suffer a deficiency of the lactase enzyme as adults and roughly half of adult Hispanics also tend to be deficient to some degree as far as lactase is concerned."
Which I found interesting, are these the same groups which have a tendency for diabetes? Cos it's a bit mean. No milk no sugar.

Pima Indians (N. American) have exceptionally high incidence of Type II diabetes (or Non-Insulin Dependent Diabete Mellitus).  They have therefore been studied intensely for genetic factors that contribute to the diseases aetiology (one of my friends is a Fellow at the Sanger center in Cambridge and works on the genetics of NIDDM).

See the Online Mendelian Inheritance In Man entry for the lowdown on the genetics.

There's also an entry for the lactase gene which describes associated traits and frequencies such as congenital lactose intolerance and lactase persistence.  Its located on chromosome 2q21 (see ideograms for what the q21 means) which isn't one of the many loci that carries genes/markers that have demonstrated association with NIDDM (to date, thats not to say that the lactase gene isn't involved, it just might have a very small effect size which would require a very large study population to have the power to detect it).

[moose]

As a sideline note, the tannins in tea inhibit iron absorption. So have a think about how much and when you're drinking tea.

Only just noticed this.  Please say it aint so: I drink at least 5 pints of tea a day.  Mind you it might explain my bloodless appearance.  Coincidentally, I was in London on tuesday and walked past an NHS stand that was raising awareness of atrial fibrillation (irregular heartrate) by taking the pulse of passers-by.  The nurse just could not find my pulse - she was struggling for around five minutes, pressing so hard her nails gouged my skin before giving up (a poor show considering that I'm not exactly a fleshy person).  Not very reassuring really - I'm either in terrible shape or.....a zombie! 

Re training and food, I find that my problem isn't so much diet, but appetite.  I just do not feel hungry during exercise.  I'll have porridge for breakfast but during an average four hourish session of concerted bouldering will generally only eat an apple.  Anything more substantial makes me feel queasy - and it's worse the harder I'm climbing.  It doesn't seem to harm my peformance whilst at the crag, but I suspect feeling like I'm going to faint whilst driving home isn't a good sign (although it is reassuring on some level to know how hard I can push myself).  I suspect I'm only held together by the restorative powers of a litre flask of stong coffee and the prospect of a curd tart when I get home (curd tarts the Yorkshire source of power: the combined goodness of dried fruit, cottage-cheesey curds, and lard!).

[slackline]

As a sideline note, the tannins in tea inhibit iron absorption. So have a think about how much and when you're drinking tea.

Coincidentally, I was in London on tuesday and walked past an NHS stand that was raising awareness of atrial fibrillation (irregular heartrate) by taking the pulse of passers-by.  The nurse just could not find my pulse - she was struggling for around five minutes, pressing so hard her nails gouged my skin before giving up (a poor show considering that I'm not exactly a fleshy person).  Not very reassuring really - I'm either in terrible shape or.....a zombie! 

Was she trying your wrist (not so worrying) or your neck (very worrying if no pulse can be found in the jugular!!!)

[Sloper]

Houdini,

Are you really a veggie?  I seem to remember you eating a triple duck dinner in Font, remember the roadkill?

[Houdini]

Your memory is like a collander.

I gave up eating meat when I was 17.  Though I do once in a blue moon try something I haven't eaten before, though I draw the line at crustaceans Bleurgh!  I nibbled a piece of duck, I didn't eat a triple duck dinner.  I recall saying it was Alright, I just wouldn't want to eat it. 
There was a Pheasant that I killed too remember, it was winged by a shooting party a mile or so from Neils' gaff - it fell from the sky nearly hitting me.  I didn't try that though - not because I had problems eating something I stamped to death - but because I recall the flavour from my youth.

I tried some raw Salmon the other week, thin slices w/ gravad lachs sauce:  it tasted like shit.  The sauce was nice though, I like it better on Appenzeller and sliced tomato.

[superfurrymonkey]

That jibes with what Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine President Dr. Neal Barnard says in his book, The Power of Your Plate, in which he explains that "early humans had diets very much like other great apes, which is to say a largely plant-based diet, drawing on foods we can pick with our hands. Research suggests that meat-eating probably began by scavenging--eating the leftovers that carnivores had left behind. However, our bodies have never adapted to it. To this day, meat-eaters have a higher incidence of heart disease, cancer, diabetes, and other problems."
Full article here, I'm interested on others thoughts on this as I'm no expert but am interested in cutting down on my meat intake or perhaps going full veggie! :'(
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kathy-freston/shattering-the-meat-myth_b_214390.html

[Richie Crouch]

BBQ tonight. Burgers, sausages, steaks and Chicken Kebabs. A well balanced diet for apres climb recovery 

[superfurrymonkey]

BBQ tonight. Burgers, sausages, steaks and Chicken Kebabs. A well balanced diet for apres climb recovery 

Now that's just cruel