You just cant help yourself Richard, can you? It upsets me when people attempt to be-little others, i really cant understand the motivation. I thought that you were going to try to be a little bit more supportive to other people in future, but I guess a leopard can't change its spots.
People can claim whatever they like, be they shit or good, eliminate or non, link up or line. As time passes, the climbing public will deem some lines worthy of remembering and others not. Only time will tell as to whether Keen roof will be remembered, I think it will, but I will have to wait and see.
For people that don't know ravens tor, or don't quite understand where Keen and Ben's roof go, here is a little diagram. Please excuse the poor quality, as has allready been mentioned, I am in America and so away from my computer. The yellow line is Ben's, the red is Keen, the black circle is where Richard says he started from.
In my opinion it would be a very contrived line to start as for Ben's roof, you can see the almost 180 degree turn you would have to make. Also, as bonjoy said, there is a kneebar (no-hands) rest at the 180 degree turn so you could hang out there for as long as you liked and recover before starting Keen. If you eliminated the kneebar to make it harder then it would be just that, a harder eliminate
For me to put time in to doing a new problem, it has to be a good, non eliminate, obvious line. I chose to start Keen roof from the left because this is the place that best fitted the above specification. The Ben's start would be contrived, eliminate and unobvious. The roof start whilst being non eliminate is a little unobvious and misses out on some really good moves (not 2 5c/6a moves like Richard incorrectly stated, but a short V6?) that do tire you out and make the whole problem harder, and Richard, before you make another throw away comment about how good climbers "don't get tired on v6's" just like the comment you made to Tyler earlier about how good climbers should not have to worry about their tendons on this problem...
As for Tyler's comment on the pocket, i really cannot see how this pocket can be of a dangerous nature for a climber of his caliber- the hold is positive, not sharp and fairly deep allowing at least 2 fingers to be used. I believe there really is nothing to worry about when attempting this problem.
please save your breath. I know you think everyone else is worthless compared to yourself, Ben and Malcolm, and that using your feet is something to be frowned upon etc etc, but other peoples opinions and feelings are important too.
Please don't think that I am saying that the Ben's start is silly, or that Ben's should start from where I started Keen as this could not be further from the truth. As you can see from the diagram, that is the obvious start, for Ben's roof
, which creates a nice sweeping line around the left wall of the cave. However, Keen roof does not follow the wall but goes through the roof (essentially nothing to do with Ben's roof) and so the Ben's start is not suitable (if we are talking about original lines and not link-ups).
I would also like to clear up a few points from earlier on in this thread:
From a previous discussion at this problem, James was aware that I had climbed this problem from the stated place and also agreed that the line is 8a+ from here.
We talked briefly about the moves after I had spent 2 sessions trying it. Never did you mention that you had linked
the problem from the undercuts in the roof, only that you had done the move to the lip. I said I thought the problem would be 8a+ from the back (my first guess at the difficulty after 2 days trying it, after spending a further 7 or 8 days on it, I felt it was harder than 8a+ and so offered 8b) and you said you thought it would be 8b. Never did we agree on 8a+ from the undercuts.
I'm sure some may say (myself included) that James line detracts from where i stated- adding two easy moves of no significance on polished rock, just for the sake of starting on my arse- which incidentally you can also do from where i started.
You are entitled to your opinion, however I feel I must point out that unless you have either grown, or have had arm extensions, you could not
start from the mid-roof undercuts, sat on the floor. The first point
you can start sitting is where I started. I am taller than you and have longer arms and I found it a stretch to reach even these holds.
I presume that the above mistakes were just that. I know it is easy to get carried away when you feel strongly about a subject, but you should be carefull about what you write. It is easy for people to get the wrong end of the stick, mistakes get confused for lies, people get a reputation they may not deserve and it is a slippery slope from there.
It would seem that the holds which James started from are simply a different set of random holds from the ones Rich climbed from. The fact that they form a possible sit start in some instances would make a difference. However, in a low cave, where there are many points for a sit start which one does one choose for a logical sit start..
As I have said a few times, the starting holds for Keen are not at all random. They are an obvious pair of jugs, and the first
point in which you can sit start in the cave. You are right about there being many points where you could sit start or more precisely, sit on the floor and touch rock with your hands. You could even squirm in to the back and lie down if it took your fancy. So, "which one does one chose for a logical sit start.." How about the one that has two obvious jugs, and is the first point that your bottom can touch the floor??? Makes sense to me!
One last point, if people have an opinion, and feel strongly enough to say it then please don't try to make light of it by adding a silly jokey comment at the end. What you say effects others, and it is up to you to decide if what you are going to say/write is worth it. If you feel you need some kind of get out clause, is it really worth writing in the first place? We saw it here a few months ago with this thread http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,5620.0.html
and we have seen it again today.
I think Doylo sums it up nicely
what a load of shite, with mates like that who needs enemies
Thankyou to the majority of people on here for your support. It is much appreciated. The park is beautiful and the climbing is ace.
See you all soon.