[TobyD]

I think some of you are slightly misrepresenting exactly how ground breaking The Matrix was. I'm sure there are entire documentaries ...

Yes, I said it looked amazing. But ultimately, it remains amazing looking, technologically groundbreaking, but utter, utter codswallop.

Great movies are made of considerably more than snazzy special effects. I give you North by Northwest, some stuff that was probably advanced for the time eg the cropduster scene, but basically it's a simple story with killer scriptwriting, great cinematography, great acting, humour and action, and will far outlive ephemeral lightshows.

Sorry, I'll just get off my soapbox now... 

[teestub]

Yes, I said it looked amazing. But ultimately, it remains amazing looking, technologically groundbreaking, but utter, utter codswallop.

Would you put Star Wars in the same category “You can write this stuff George, but you sure can’t say it”. Isn’t all SciFi essentially ‘codswallop’ if you want to view it as such?

[Falling Down]

I won't watch ep. IV Star Wars as an adult (although I do go and see the new ones) 'cos it's sooo bad but I loved it so much as a kid I don't want to ruin the good memories.  Empire Strikes Back though is badass.

Good Sci-Fi = Solaris (Trakovski's), Silent Running  , Ex-Machina, Close Encounters, Alien, 2001, Akira, Children of Men, Moon, District 9, Under the Skin, Arrival plus several more that I can't recall.

[Mr E S Capegoat]

I think some of you are slightly misrepresenting exactly how ground breaking The Matrix was. I'm sure there are entire documentaries ...

Yes, I said it looked amazing. But ultimately, it remains amazing looking, technologically groundbreaking, but utter, utter codswallop.

Great movies are made of considerably more than snazzy special effects. I give you North by Northwest, some stuff that was probably advanced for the time eg the cropduster scene, but basically it's a simple story with killer scriptwriting, great cinematography, great acting, humour and action, and will far outlive ephemeral lightshows.

Sorry, I'll just get off my soapbox now...

Along with the Truman Show it certainly influenced a generation of psychotic experiences. Along with the Cold War, I’d say that was reasonably influential.

[andy popp]

I've never seen The Matrix but it seems to me to have had an immensely negative cultural effect (no doubt unintended). The whole "red pilled" thing has become the default get out clause for racists and misogynists wishing to excuse their hatred as having the blinkers lifted while the rest of us sheeple (a pathetic term) wallow in ignorance. Seriously, I think it planted a malign seed.

[Mr E S Capegoat]

I’ve never heard it used that way. Maybe In the states? It’s been used a bit on here in a mocking way, e.g oooo have you swallowed the red pill etc. I prefer John Carpenter’s They Live when it comes to a good excuse for a conspiracy theory.  😎

[TobyD]

Yes, I said it looked amazing. But ultimately, it remains amazing looking, technologically groundbreaking, but utter, utter codswallop.

Would you put Star Wars in the same category “You can write this stuff George, but you sure can’t say it”. Isn’t all SciFi essentially ‘codswallop’ if you want to view it as such?

No, I wouldn't say so. First off, Star Wars has a very simple premise and story, and  is essentially a very honest film. I'm not saying it's brilliant cinema, but it isn't mired in the pretension that I always felt plagues the matrix. The matrix has a distinct sense of thinking it's a lot more intelligent than it actually is. I love brainless sci fi, but not if it is trying desperately to be all profound and meaningful. Take Pacific Rim, massive robots fight massive radioactive dinosaurs, and nothing more. I absolutely loved it. It definitely makes absolutely no attempt to be meaningful, it's just massive ... you get the picture.

[TobyD]

I won't watch ep. IV Star Wars as an adult (although I do go and see the new ones) 'cos it's sooo bad but I loved it so much as a kid I don't want to ruin the good memories.  Empire Strikes Back though is badass.

Good Sci-Fi = Solaris (Trakovski's), Silent Running  , Ex-Machina, Close Encounters, Alien, 2001, Akira, Children of Men, Moon, District 9, Under the Skin, Arrival plus several more that I can't recall.

I like all of the movies you mention that I've seen, although I'd argue many of them barely quality as sci fi. Alien is clearly a horror movie which happens to be in space, much as Aliens is clearly a war film, which happens to be in space. Ex Machina was great, but almost qualifies as horror as well, I thought. Akira is excellent, as is Ghost in the Shell  (original).

The best sci fi movie never made (as far as I know) would be JG Ballard's The Drowned World, among my favourite books and it'd make an amazing film. Should anyone on ukb have a few hundred million to splash, hire a director and get it made!

[moose]

Yes, I said it looked amazing. But ultimately, it remains amazing looking, technologically groundbreaking, but utter, utter codswallop.

Would you put Star Wars in the same category “You can write this stuff George, but you sure can’t say it”. Isn’t all SciFi essentially ‘codswallop’ if you want to view it as such?

No, I wouldn't say so. First off, Star Wars has a very simple premise and story, and  is essentially a very honest film. I'm not saying it's brilliant cinema, but it isn't mired in the pretension that I always felt plagues the matrix. The matrix has a distinct sense of thinking it's a lot more intelligent than it actually is. I love brainless sci fi, but not if it is trying desperately to be all profound and meaningful. Take Pacific Rim, massive robots fight massive radioactive dinosaurs, and nothing more. I absolutely loved it. It definitely makes absolutely no attempt to be meaningful, it's just massive ... you get the picture.

Agree.  I don't mind films being daft, it's when they take themselves too seriously (often whilst being wildly inconsistant) that I get annoyed.  With Star Wars, yes there was a fair amount of George Lucas "codswallop" dialogue, but it when you have Harrison Ford in a star-making turn mixing it with quips, you can get away with that.   The overall impression has a lightness of touch and playfulness that the Matrix entirely lacks (perhaps it needed camp robots). 

Re never made films - I guess the "classic" modern example I would love to have seen was the script for Alien3 set on an artificial moon made of wood, populated by monks who have rejected all technology - with a final scene involving an attempt to trap the Alien in a field of burning corn on the outer surface, under the stars.

[teestub]

I like all of the movies you mention that I've seen, although I'd argue many of them barely quality as sci fi.

You can play this game with all sci-fi movies and literature though right, sci-fi just tells you about the setting but the content will generally fall into another genre: Star Wars is a military action film, The Matrix is a Kung Fu Jesus movie, Bladerunner is a noir crime film etc etc.

Agree about Pacific Rim, so stylish and enjoyable!

[TobyD]

I like all of the movies you mention that I've seen, although I'd argue many of them barely quality as sci fi.

You can play this game with all sci-fi movies and literature though right, sci-fi just tells you about the setting but the content will generally fall into another genre: Star Wars is a military action film, The Matrix is a Kung Fu Jesus movie, Bladerunner is a noir crime film etc etc.

Agree about Pacific Rim, so stylish and enjoyable!

"Science fiction just tells you about the setting "; I really disagree, they're variously set in space, on earth, in the future,  in a non specific time on another planet...
 "Science fiction can be defined as that branch of literature which deals with the reaction of human beings to changes in science and technology."Isaac Asimov
Clearly it's something which is difficult to define,  and has considerable overlap with dystopian fiction since sci fiction pretty much never paints a particularly positive view of the future. 
I read a great article recently which was saying something along the lines of it telling us about how we feel about our world and time, and what we are afraid of with an alternative reality. 

Ps: wad points for being a fellow Pacific Rim fan, it's pure trash which I absolutely love. 

[TobyD]

Re never made films - I guess the "classic" modern example I would love to have seen was the script for Alien3 set on an artificial moon made of wood, populated by monks who have rejected all technology - with a final scene involving an attempt to trap the Alien in a field of burning corn on the outer surface, under the stars.

Yikes.  I'm really glad I'm not in your head, Moose. 

[Bradders]

it isn't mired in the pretension that I always felt plagues the matrix. The matrix has a distinct sense of thinking it's a lot more intelligent than it actually is.

I think this is very much in the eye of the beholder though; I'm quite happy to just sit down and enjoy a classic bit of escapism (that's what films are for right?) with the matrix without trying to attach any sort of further meaning to it. Surely the "utter codswallop" title applies to every sci fi film ever made if you take it from a certain perspective?

To use your example, Pacific Rim is utter codswallop about giant dinosaurs fighting giant robots (I agree it's great).

The only real thing a film can do wrong is be boring, in my opinion. If you didn't feel the urge to go and do something else whilst watching it, then it's done its job. Sure some films make an attempt to be meaningful, but I tend to either ignore or forget about it within about 10 seconds because it's so completely irrelevant to real life; particularly with sci fi.

"Science fiction can be defined as that branch of literature which deals with the reaction of human beings to changes in science and technology."Isaac Asimov

I'd argue that includes the audience's reaction (e.g. terror with Alien), just as much as it does the humans in the film.

[moose]

I didn't write the script, I'd just like to have seen it!  The abandoned script was much whispered about after the release of Alien 3, and a few years ago copies came to light along with the concept artwork.  I really liked Alien 3 (Brian Glover versus the xenomorphs!) but the image of trails of burning corn on a tiny planet, alone among the stars, stuck with me,  and has always had me dreaming of what might have been.  Interestingly, William Gibson supposedly also wrote a couple of rejected scripts for Alien 3.

[crzylgs]

Good Sci-Fi = Solaris (Trakovski's), Silent Running  , Ex-Machina, Close Encounters, Alien, 2001, Akira, Children of Men, Moon, District 9, Under the Skin, Arrival plus several more that I can't recall.

That's a REALLY nice list  seen and enjoyed every one. You forgot a biggie: Blade Runner. I'd also add Gattaca, Ghost in the Shell (original anime), The Fifth Element, Predator (Best B-Movie ever?) The Thing, 12 Monkeys... Am probably also forgetting a few great examples.

The matrix has a distinct sense of thinking it's a lot more intelligent than it actually is.

That didn't hit me from the first film as a stand alone... It is just a hero/savior martial arts adventure, with an evil AI over-lord as the antagonist (hadn't been done that much previously - Terminator being the biggest example) and the concept of living in a constructed reality (had been done even less before?). In its simplest terms its using those sci-fi parts to represent how the masses can feel/be controlled/oppressed in modern society. The hero representing free will/action of the individual. Both fairly common themes.

If we bring the sequels in to the mix then I'd heartily agree with you. They are absolute nonsense and psychobabble tosh :S but I've happily erased them from my memory and deny their existence! Probably super off-topic but I have to wonder that the Wachowskis siblings both transitioning from male > female and the vast psychological / philological / hormonal changes involved had a large part in the pure what-the-fuckery of the sequels. Also they were probably given FAR too much of a free hand by the studio given the success of the original.

[TobyD]

I didn't write the script, I'd just like to have seen it!  The abandoned script was much whispered about after the release of Alien 3, and a few years ago copies came to light along with the concept artwork.  I really liked Alien 3 (Brian Glover versus the xenomorphs!) but the image of trails of burning corn on a tiny planet, alone among the stars, stuck with me,  and has always had me dreaming of what might have been.  Interestingly, William Gibson supposedly also wrote a couple of rejected scripts for Alien 3.

I had a horrible image in my head of basically Children of the Corn in space, with a xenomorph, thus combining a book and a movie which scared the living shit out of me.

[lagerstarfish]

  Interestingly, William Gibson supposedly also wrote a couple of rejected scripts for Alien 3.

available as an audio book

https://www.audible.co.uk/pd/Alien-III-Audiobook/B07QY1FVDT

[teestub]

Clearly it's something which is difficult to define,  and has considerable overlap with dystopian fiction since sci fiction pretty much never paints a particularly positive view of the future. 
I read a great article recently which was saying something along the lines of it telling us about how we feel about our world and time, and what we are afraid of with an alternative reality. 

I think the Iain M Banks Culture novels paint quite a positive picture of a post scarcity civilisation, as long as you don’t mind the idea of being governed by super smart AI!

I think SF as allegory is a great subject, I guess Starship Troopers may be the one where the most people missed the point, I certainly did!

[crzylgs]

I think SF as allegory is a great subject, I guess Starship Troopers may be the one where the most people missed the point, I certainly did!

I was going to add Starship Troopers to my little list above, but wasn't sure if people would take me seriously.

[andy popp]

I think SF as allegory is a great subject

I've always thought of the best Westerns as allegories, or perhaps Greek tragedy (thinking of things like "Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid."

[webbo]

Isn’t Star Wars just a Sci Fi version of the Magnificent Seven.

[moose]

 

Isn’t Star Wars just a Sci Fi version of the Magnificent Seven.

with a bit of Kurasawa's Hidden Fortress (IIRC, The Last Starfighter is an even more explicit Magnificent 7 in Space)

[Plattsy]

My favourite SF film is Serenity. Mixes Western and Horror into Space. Funny, good characters (strong female and male characters) and action.

[Falling Down]

Been out all day and catching up.  Toby - I have to disagree with the ‘barely qualify as sci-if’ but I do get your point though and would love to see The Drowned World on film.  Especially if it had been done in the 70’s with Donald Pleasance,   Donald Sutherland and that lot in it.

The prof’s nailed it though with his suggestion that it’s all Greek at the end of the day.

Moose - get it shot or at least write the screenplay.

You’re all ace.

[moose]

... The Drowned World on film.  Especially if it had been done in the 70’s with Donald Pleasance,   Donald Sutherland and that lot in it.

That reminds me of another great science-fiction film: the 70s version of Invasion of the Body Snatchers (with Donald Sutherland). Perhaps combine with John Carpenter's The Thing for a double bill of horrible final scenes that leave you faintly paranoid for days.