[crzylgs]

Can't bring myself to spend 3.5hrs sat down in the cinema but am definitely looking forward to watching it as soon as it lands on Netflix. Decent headphones, 4K laptop screen, home comforts and dog sharing the sofa - while not the same does make for a fairly decent film watching experience.

Only thing of note I've re-watched recently was Fight Club - interesting how knowing the twist in this film almost makes it more watchable (and way more fucked up especially in terms of the relationship with Marla...) in comparison to say The Sixth Sense, or many other films where once you know the twists its all over. Also, should hopefully go without saying but I definitely think it should be viewed as a satire not through the 'Red Pill' perspective 

[Mr E S Capegoat]

So is fight club satirising the blue pill - red pill meme culture or satirising the effects of consumerist culture? Or both? Did fight club predict the matrix? And what should I be viewing with cynical lenses and remaining ‘woker than woke’. Because I’d like to remain cool if possible and woke just isn’t, in fact it may be a piece of right propaganda so people remain cynical about woke awakenings. 🤣Time to take more Soma and go back to sleep.....

[crzylgs]

So is fight club satirising the blue pill - red pill meme culture or satirising the effects of consumerist culture? Or both? Did fight club predict the matrix? And what should I be viewing with cynical lenses and remaining ‘woker than woke’. Because I’d like to remain cool if possible and woke just isn’t, in fact it may be a piece of right propaganda so people remain cynical about woke awakenings. 🤣Time to take more Soma and go back to sleep.....

You completely lost me... Mainly because I can't help but read everything you write in the voice of 'Trying to be intelligent placebo experiment Charlie' from It's Always Sunny in Philidelphia 



For the uninitiated.

[Mr E S Capegoat]

Hehe I think someone might have slipped me one of those.....

What I was asking is, the ‘blue pill - red pill’ meme came after fight club so I was wondering how you were relating it?

Did fight club satirise consumer culture only

Or

Was it satirising consumer culture and also the ‘awakening’ to consumer culture I.e. ridiculing of the Tyler Durden character and his reaction to consumerism?

[andy popp]

Burning Cane, directed by Phillip Youmans - an undoubtedly very grim drama about poverty in rural Louisiana. It is no fun at all and many will no doubt be turned off but it's also an undeniably impressive piece of film-making from Youmans, who was 19 when he completed it. The cinematography (also by Youmans) is striking, and there's a great central performance from Wendell Pierce, who some may know from the tv series "Treme." 

[crzylgs]

Preface: I'm a little concerned I'm getting into an conversation with an AI generated bot / fictitious online persona and not a real human being but here goes on the off chance!


As an aside - both The Matrix and Fight Club were released in 1999 (a stupendous year for cinema!) with The Matrix actually coming out a few months earlier. In their own ways they were both lashing out against the continually increasing rampant consumer tendencies, our throw away society, the dissatisfaction of vast swathes of the population stuck in careers they dislike, spending 8+hrs a day in a tiny artificially lit cubicle. 20 years later it is almost scary to think how much further the scales have continued to tip in the direction they were against. Luckily today we have the added joys of Instagram influencers to keep the populace docile

Moving on to your points:

My mention of the 'Red Pill' wasn't meant to reference The Matrix and it's Red Pill: Blue Pill 'are you woke bro' meme... but the subculture of 'Red Pill' males (a niche - i hope - group of disgruntled incels? I'm not that well informed about the whole shindig tbh) who have misinterpreted / taken FAR too literally (bit like modern day humans who try to literally wield New Testament verses) and appropriated Fight Club almost as a Bible to their cause. This literal interpretation by the middle class white male, constantly trodden on by society is in my opinion nonsense. Equally nonsense to me is the 'outrage culture', super PC, hyper progressive 'lefties' who hold Fight Club up to be a monstrosity - BECAUSE they have completely missed the concept that is meant to be satire

Which brings us on to... Out of you two options I'd go for the former. I'm pretty sure Fight Club was simply intending to satirising excessive consumer culture. The film goes out of it's way to lead the viewer to side with Tyler (who represents the backlash against excessive consumerism) - you're meant to really like the guy, hes cool! Its Brad Pitt looking ripped! Is 'fantastic in bed', charming, charismatic - all this while essentially being the leader of a terrorist organisation. Not many films treat terrorists so lovingly. I know he meets his end and in doing so the Ed Norton 'Narrator' character is implied to have moved on, grown up, or similar but I don't think the killing of Tyler equates to ridiculing what he represents. More likely it represents an inevitable passing of time? The futility in trying to change the world? The inability to halt the insidious consumerist growth?

I also don't think its a dig at the film for me to believe it is taking the less complicated view point. You have to consider it is 20 years old, thus retroactively applying a much more modern thought like your second suggestion isn't really fair, or applicable. I remember hearing an anecdote on one of the film podcasts I listen to something like:

A film/director tutor watches the same movie with his class of teenagers every year for 20+ years. Throughout the movie he pauses it and allows the class to raise points. Every year each class inevitably finds new talking points, applies new thoughts to the same old media... They find things that were never meant to be found.

I don't think your second concept would have been around in 1999 so don't see how it could apply. However, given Hollywood's re-make and sequel culture you could probably successfully pitch that idea! 


(holy fuck that got long. Sorry all!)

[Paul B]

Le Mans 66 (aka Ford vs. Ferrari). Apart from Bale's dodgy English accent and cliché comments about cups of tea etc. I found it generally good and quite amusing at times. Damon is good as Carroll Shelby.

The car scenes don't go too Fast and Furious with an endless gearbox and it is pretty amazing to see a GT40 moving quickly.

I should probably say that I saw it at an Everyman cinema where it's being sponsored by Wild Turkey; they handed out Old Fashioneds to everyone (and Natalie was driving).

[Mr E S Capegoat]

Cheers legs, enjoyed that explanation. I’m not a bot btw, but might as well be the amount of respect I get on here. Satire within satire within satire. Not even a Bene Gesserit witch like fiend could manage that. Fuck it anyway, far to uncultured for this thread. It’s cross referential chronologically divergent metaphors that got my bot wires crossed. Looking to stay woke like yossarian y’knar

[Fiend]

Preface: I'm a little concerned I'm getting into an conversation with an AI generated bot / fictitious online persona and not a real human being but here goes on the off chance!

[Mr E S Capegoat]

Hey legs, they laugh and cheer pretty much anything on here btw. Sort of slack jawed fashion... particularly if it a very ‘witty’ put down

[moose]

A film/director tutor watches the same movie with his class of teenagers every year for 20+ years. Throughout the movie he pauses it and allows the class to raise points. Every year each class inevitably finds new talking points, applies new thoughts to the same old media... They find things that were never meant to be found.

Hermeneutics.

There's a similar classic connundrum for students of literature.  You are given a time machine and told you have one trip to help you understand Hamlet better; do you:
(1) Travel to the distant future when the last Shakespeare expert has given their definitive view, in light of all the findings of all the previous generations' experts.
(2) Travel back to 1601 to the Globe Theatre and watch the first performance in its original context, soak up the politics of the day and get to know the people is was written to appeal to.

[crzylgs]

Not even a Bene Gesserit witch like fiend could manage that.

Is this confirmation that Fiend is to star in the upcoming Denis Villeneuve directed Dune remake? 

ps. I'm hyped like NYE 1999 for that movie!

[crzylgs]

A film/director tutor watches the same movie with his class of teenagers every year for 20+ years. Throughout the movie he pauses it and allows the class to raise points. Every year each class inevitably finds new talking points, applies new thoughts to the same old media... They find things that were never meant to be found.

Hermeneutics.

There's a similar classic connundrum for students of literature.  You are given a time machine and told you have one trip to help you understand Hamlet better; do you:
(1) Travel to the distant future when the last Shakespeare expert has given their definitive view, in light of all the findings of all the previous generations' experts.
(2) Travel back to 1601 to the Globe Theatre and watch the first performance in its original context, soak up the politics of the day and get to know the people is was written to appeal to.

You seem to have missed an option:

3) Travel to the exact point in time that best fits your pre-concieved notions and fits your narrative the best?

I'm not THAT much of a cynic, promise.


Thanks for the terminology though. Am sure I'd come across it previously but hadn't committed it to memory/vocabulary. Certainly is an interesting topic of discussion when considering our interpretation of all things native to prior generations

[Mr E S Capegoat]

I 💗 everything Dune. Reading your posts you may be interested in my magazine. Psycho-philoso-therapeutic climbing journal. The guys on here mostly sneer and say stuff like ‘self congratulatory psychobabble’ but they haven’t read it. It’s pretty good.

I just act like this to put the energy systems plebs off the scent

[crzylgs]

I'll pass on the magazine but look forward to discussing Dune once it's released

I just watched 'The Amazing Johnathan Documentary' which did not help my declining ability to decipher the blur of reality/fact and fiction! Weird documentary about an even weirder individual who I knew nothing about. Shades of Andy Kaufman. Takes some twists that I can't talk about without spoiling some of the enjoyable 'what the fuckery' of the film.

It's not the kind of profound thought provoking documentary that gives you much to chew on after viewing. Still definitely worth a watch for people who are happy to spend 90mins viewing an amusing slightly bizzaro little story.

[Falling Down]

A film/director tutor watches the same movie with his class of teenagers every year for 20+ years. Throughout the movie he pauses it and allows the class to raise points. Every year each class inevitably finds new talking points, applies new thoughts to the same old media... They find things that were never meant to be found.

Hermeneutics.

There's a similar classic connundrum for students of literature.  You are given a time machine and told you have one trip to help you understand Hamlet better; do you:
(1) Travel to the distant future when the last Shakespeare expert has given their definitive view, in light of all the findings of all the previous generations' experts.
(2) Travel back to 1601 to the Globe Theatre and watch the first performance in its original context, soak up the politics of the day and get to know the people is was written to appeal to.

Red Pill or Blue Pill?

[cowboyhat]

I rewatched the matrix recently and yet can still never remember which pill is keep head in sand and which one is become enlightened.

Name another film that has permeated popular culture more completely in the last twenty years... there isn’t one. It’s a remarkable achievement.

And still a great movie, amazingly remaining unsullied by its dire sequels.

[abarro81]

The Cheetham Capillarization

“Who am I?”
“You’re Lattice property Dan.You’re a malfunctioning £60-a-month weapon. You’re a total goddam catastrophe!”

Jason Bourne, now back in the employ of the US government is tasked with tracking down renegade operative Dan Cheetham. Cheetham was part of Project Lattice - a next-gen physical augmentation programme administered from a black-ops facility in Sheffield, England. During programme training, Cheetham responded badly, experiencing life-threatening energy system fluctuations. Latticeboarded against his will, he escaped and went rogue. Now Bourne, teamed with Level 9 Lattice assets Barrows and Littlefair, must eliminate Cheetham before he makes contact with the Power Klub consortium, an underground deadhanging network funded by the mysterious Shark. If they fail, Cheetham has vowed to infiltrate Power Klub, using it to unleash the terrifying An-Cap Protocol.

Only just saw this...  fuckin ace

[TobyD]

Just watched The Report.

I thought it was really good. Adam Driver performs really well, and it becomes more compelling and engrossing as it builds, it's also surprisingly tense for something where you know essentially what's going to happen as it's closely based on comparatively recent events.

On another note (re The Matrix) I always thought this was a hugely overrated self important couple of hours of cod philosophy and sci fi cliches, albeit with really good special effects. O, and Keanu Reeves does look really cool in it.

[moose]

On another note (re The Matrix) I always thought this was a hugely overrated self important couple of hours of cod philosophy and sci fi cliches, albeit with really good special effects. O, and Keanu Reeves does look really cool in it.

Pretty much my thoughts - great special effects - up there with T2 in terms of appearing utterly ahead of their time.  But the story is an unconvincing rag-bag of tropes with a script that reads like an idiot's idea of clever ("ooohhh characters with names from Greek myth... it's like getting a classical education with Keanu!"). 

I have a pet theory that certain works get praised well above their merits because they are critics' / the general public's first exposure to anything well-made from that genre.   The Matrix is perhaps an example - a lot of the kudos came from people who were not sci-fi afficiandos, who had not become familiar with its ideas in previous (generally worse) films and books, so for them, it did not seem hackneyed.

Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon was another - it was basically a lavishly made mish-mash of umpteen wuxia films.  But as most critics perhaps hadn't watched many / any such films before, the wire-work etc seemed really startling - which perhaps made up for it being a bit pompous and humourless.  Cloud Atlas by David Mitchell is perhaps a literary example - most of the praise seemed to come from critics who never read sci-fi.  So, the various futuristic plotlines and time-hopping seemed original and deserving of lavish praise - when to me, it was just a well-written contributor to an established genre and nothing particularly special.

[tomtom]

Speaking of sci fi. I finally got round to watching Blade Runner 2049 (I think).

Loved the first half - I really enjoy the dystopian future imagery and ideas - but thought the second half was good but somewhat predictable.

I did watch it in two halves though - which may have had something to do with it.

[teestub]

Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon was another - it was basically a lavishly made mish-mash of umpteen wuxia films.  But as most critics perhaps hadn't watched many / any such films before, the wire-work etc seemed really startling - which perhaps made up for it being a bit pompous and humourless.

I think Crouching Tiger had better production values (and obviously had a lot more spent on it) than anything else I’d seen in the genre, so whilst the fight scenes were fairly standard, the overall film was a step above.

I think another thing The Matrix had going for it added into the mix was the fight choreography, having Yuen Woo Ping involved obviously took that a step above any other mainstream action films. When I was a student picking films at the video rental store (what), we used to pick our kung fu films by his involvement.

Have you watched T2 recently? The liquid metal effect stands up pretty well by today’s standards, but the nuclear bomb scene which I remember being totally epic from my youth is embarrassingly bad!

[tomtom]

T2 was jaw dropping when it first came out.

I remember lining up for a preview showing at midnight at our local cinema and being totally gobsmacked. It was so far ahead of its time for the effects - and the whole concept of a liquid metal robot - what could beat it!!!

You can probably make something like that on a phone now - but back then it was amazing.

I’m off out in a bit but my step father in law was a special effects maker back in the day. Lots of tales... big sets.. big stars.. regular coke breaks...

[SA Chris]

With the kids of age, I went back and started at the beginning with Pixar films and Toy Story. As the development of computer generated films has been gradual you don't really notice it, but TS 1 looked terrible by modern standards.

[crzylgs]

I think some of you are slightly misrepresenting exactly how ground breaking The Matrix was. I'm sure there are entire documentaries about the make of it - I've just picked up bits and pieces from various podcasts etc. The 'Bullet Time' alone, being an actual practical effect (this being a biggie and why it stands up in comparison to early or even some modern CGI!), having the 360 degree cameras, programmed to take pics in the precisely correct timing sequence is an incredible achievement.

There has hardly been an action movie since that hasn't stolen/borrowed/benefited from the technical discoveries and advancements.

Also its Jesus fighting an AI that has enslaved the human race, whats not to love about that? :D

Regarding T2... It's great in so many ways and agree about the effects holding up... but Edward Furlong. I've re-watched that film a few times over the years and sadly his performance gets worse and worse to the point I don't think i'll be watching it again. Not helped by some of the James Cameron writing in T2 pushing over from cool into cheese :/ I'd rather re-watch T1, which if you run the plot/scenes side by side is incredibly similar to T2.