posted by: mike date: 2002-07-25 time: 13:02:29 reply x
Which are king? ukB say V, and death to the B's. And as for Font, well, I just plain don't like 'em, no siree! I now think in V's, how about everyone else?
postId: 83 posted by: guest date: 2002-07-25 time: 15:23:57 reply x
In reply to post 82: Does anyone really care?
postId: 84 posted by: mike date: 2002-07-25 time: 16:22:38 reply x
In reply to post 83: Lots of people do...apparantly. I don't think people should get fixated on it, but it's interesting to know what most people use, especially when we're running a bouldering site. You may have noticed that we've deliberately left any grades out of photos on the site, specifically to stop people just looking at the high grade ones.
postId: 86 posted by: guest date: 2002-07-25 time: 22:32:29 reply x
In reply to post 82:V Grade's here but V8+ wot's all that about I know it's to do with font grade's but why bother ? (I think it spoil's the simplisity of the V Grading system ) cheers Geoff
postId: 87 posted by: guest date: 2002-07-26 time: 00:49:48 reply x
In reply to post 82:but Mike, you've made no mention of the good old fashioned British Tech Grade! has it been banished to the outer realms of existance already?? and if so, how long before V grades become the norm for the Tech grade on routes too?
postId: 88 posted by: mike date: 2002-07-26 time: 06:39:42 reply x
In reply to post 86: When I read Si Panton's article proposing the V8+ grade, it made a lot of sense to me, and it made the comparison of grading systems easy. Now it seems that nobody is really using it, and looks like it'll just disappear. Although it's way above my grade anyway, I can't imagine ever thinking "that's a v8+" as opposed to just v8 or v9. I'd be interested whether or not Mr Panton's going to use it in his upcoming North Wales bouldering guide.
postId: 89 posted by: mike date: 2002-07-26 time: 06:44:50 reply x
In reply to post 87: Personally, I don't see the relevance of the BTG any more. I just think in V grades, and never really think about the BTG really, unless someone mentions it. For me, 6b covers such a vast range of problems it's become irrelavent. People are already describing route cruxes in V's, especially in sport climbing. I think things will go that way, and I'd be happy to see it, although I'm not really that arsed, as I don't do routes!
postId: 174 posted by: guest date: 2002-08-08 time: 12:39:02 reply x
In reply to post 84: it has become trendy over the last few years to pretend that bouldering is all about movement over rock and not about the numbers. what a load of crap that is. first, i can't understand people who say they prefer bouldering for the movement. don't these move when they climb routes? secondly, grades are fundamental to the sport. whether you use them to measure personal progress or simply as an indication of 'what you're in for' it doesn't really matter. i can't understand why this is such a bitter pill for so many neo-boulderers. the real reason why people say they don't like grades is that they don't like people who can tick bigger numbers than they can (including klem, chris and all the high profile blokes - fact is, klem got sick of being downgraded). once you get over yourself and realise that there is always going to be someone who can climb something you can't then the grading issue ceases to be an issue. thirdly, i think the font system makes sense given its proximity to the UK and the fact that most people here have bouldered there at some stage (at least compared to hueco). this v8+ nonsense is crazy - just adopt the font system and be done with it - rather than trying to bend the V system to fit. nuff said
postId: 176 posted by: mike date: 2002-08-08 time: 18:43:52 reply x
In reply to post 174: Well, that's a personal thing - I'm sure some people really aren't that arsed about the numbers. Personally, if I feel I'm climbing really well, then I'll sometimes seek out a problem of a certain grade, but most of the time, it doesn't bother me as it's so subjective anyway. The thing about prefering bouldering for the movement, I can understand completely. Of course you can still make great moves when tradding, but more often than not, you've got a heavy rack around your waist, are worried about falling/placing gear/etc and have to communicate constantly with your belayer. That for me dilutes the experience, and I just don't enjoy it in the same way, although soloing is often similar to bouldering, if you're "in the zone" as it were. I'm inclined to agree about the V8+ grade bit, but I prefer V grades to Font. dunno why, probably because the Rockfax Yorkshire guide is the first bouldering guide that's had a decent grading system, and I base a lot of my grades on that now. I suppose I just think in V's now, and find it hard to relate to Font grades as I've not climbed in Font much.
postId: 181 posted by: guest date: 2002-08-09 time: 11:56:08 reply x
In reply to post 176: "The thing about prefering bouldering for the movement, I can understand completely. Of course you can still make great moves when tradding, but more often than not, you've got a heavy rack around your waist, are worried about falling/placing gear/etc and have to communicate constantly with your belayer." but don't you worry about falling off boulders? and what about sport climbing? "That for me dilutes the experience, and I just don't enjoy it in the same way, although soloing is often similar to bouldering, if you're "in the zone" as it were." fair enough - but the movement experience provided by bouldering is diluted in other ways. and, more to the point, for many people the movement experience is enhanced when it is carried out in a pressured situation (eg a knarly trad lead or hard sport onsight). as for grades - well they are really just a relative description of difficulty - and nobody who climbs can honestly say that difficulty is irrelevant. otherwise, we'd all throw away our shoes, our chalk, our pads and go climbing stairs!
postId: 185 posted by: mike date: 2002-08-09 time: 12:57:14 reply x
In reply to post 181: I don't worry about falling off most boulders - not to the extent of trad falls anyway, although of course there are serious boulder problems too. I'm talking in general terms. Sport's ok, once you get used to lobbing, and in some ways is similar to bouldering (element of danger eliminated, etc), but of course it does bring it's own set of pressures into the equation, although they're similar in nature to linking a hard boulder problem. Peak limestone isn't exactly inspiring mind, and I've not been on a rope for about a decade, so never really do any these days. "...and, more to the point, for many people the movement experience is enhanced when it is carried out in a pressured situation (eg a knarly trad lead..." Not thought of it that way but I can see that many would be attracted to that, though it doesn't appeal to me at all. Different strokes for different folks, which is good - it'd be dull if everyone bouldered, and nobody was out there doing trad,sport,winter climbing, etc. I'm not saying bouldering's better than any other form of climbing per se, that's just what floats my boat. Difficulty can be irrelevant, some of my favourite problems are really easy but just have nice moves, but as a whole it's not and that's part of the challenge of bouldering - for me anyway. The difference is where people base all their choices of problem on grade alone, or are just obsessed about getting to the next number. I used to be like that, but found it ultimately unsatisfying and frustrating, as I'd spend 90% of my time failing on projects, and never enjoying quality problems of a lesser grade.
postId: 225 posted by: guest date: 2002-08-14 time: 23:18:31 reply x
In reply to post 88: What do you mean 'nobody is really using it'? I get sent new material every week, and not just from N Wales activists, where people have adopted the V8+ grade tweak. Its no big deal really, just a way of getting parity between two conflicting systems. If I think something is comparable in grade to Font 7b+, then what grade should I give it? V8 is wrong, and so is V9. I've got a project up the Pass at the moment, and it feels much harder than any of the benchmark V8s, yet I know I'd be kidding myself if I graded it V9, because I know this is a very hard, largely unattainable grade for me (and most people, come to think of it). I will be using the V8+ grade in the N Wales guide because it makes sense. By the way there are loads of grading errors in the Yorkshire guide. I suggest you bend the ear of John Wainwright if you want an updated modern appraisal. For example, the Keel is standard V8+/ Font 7b+, Demon Wall Roof is V6/ 7a and Dolphin B. Slap is V5/6c. Cheers, Simon.
postId: 228 posted by: mike date: 2002-08-15 time: 07:49:16 reply x
Hi Simon, You get sent a lot more problems than I do over here, and if people are using v8+ then I just wasn't aware. All the probs that people have submitted here are 8's or 9's, but no 8+'s, although the grade is there on the problem submission form for people to use. Also, I've seen some negative press about the grade on the newsgroups, etc. As I've said above, I do think it makes a lot sense to match us up with the other systems, and your "to v or not to v" article stated the case very well. The only problems I have with it is that, as someone said above it tarnishes the simplicity of the v system, not that that's a huge deal
postId: 229 posted by: mike date: 2002-08-15 time: 07:49:34 reply x
In reply to post 228: My biggest reservation is how would non-uk boulderers see it, if it's supposed to be an international system that matches the worldwide v system? Have you had any opinions on it from (for example) US boulderers? I may be missing the point entirely, but would be keen to know how you feel about that aspect of it. If the N Wales guide is going to use it, then I'm sure that'll put it firmly on the map - any idea how long before the guide hits the shops? In fact, will it hit the shops or are you selling it direct? I know there's grading errors in the Yorks guide, even at the lowly levels that I boulder at, but I thought the consensus on the Keel was 7c and the hard version 7c+?
postId: 230 posted by: mike date: 2002-08-15 time: 07:50:11 reply x
In reply to post 229: sorry bout the multiple posts, firewall here will only allow short posts for some reason...
postId: 249 posted by: guest date: 2002-08-15 time: 22:34:02 reply x
In reply to post 229: I'm sure that most American boulderers would be pissed off that some limey bastard would have the temerity to suggest that there is a flaw in their system. Although, surely these very same people might wish to ask themselves why they find the Font grading sytem so confusing (okay, I am aware that I am making assumptions here; perhaps they don't at all). It just seems so obvious to me that V8 is a bloated grade, just like the British E6 grade (sport comparison: 7b+/7c/7c+). If we just go with the original V8 grade, then we must accept that this covers a broad spectrum of difficulty, well 7b and 7b+, and that is quite broad. The last time I was in the States was a 6 week trip to Hueco about 6 years ago, but I have discussed this issue exstensively with Mark Katz and Dave Noden who recently spent 3 months in Bishop, and they agree with me about the lack of parity in the two systems. I've yet to decide upon the best distribution method for the guide, although I'm sure that general climbing shops will feature in the plan somewhere. The point I was making about Yorkshire, was that I feel the guide arrived just too early to take advantage of what I see as a 'new' understanding of grading sytems. My opinions have definitely shifted towards a much harsher stance in the last 18 months. I hope that people will recognise the grades in the new NW guide as 'benchkmarks'. Most folk that I talk to now seem to have grasped the new standards. Anyway,the Yorkshire guide is way more in line with current thinking than the Peak guide. This desperately needs updating. Maybe you should take it on as a project? A 'UKBouldering production'. You must admit, it does have a certain ring to it. I'm sure Rockfax will relish the competition! Cheers, Simon.
postId: 250 posted by: mike date: 2002-08-16 time: 07:05:49 reply x
Ha! Yeah, don't tell them over at boldering.com or they'll be roasting you over your bastardising of their grading system. Verm will be after your blood. I guess if it's touted as a tweak, rather than a new grade (subtle but significant difference) then it's far easier to get to grips with. Saves having to state easy/hard V8 all the time to makes sense of a bloated grade. Harsher stance over Yorkshire? Bleedin' ell, there was me thinking it's quite harsh enough, but what do I know, not having done much overseas bouldering of late.
postId: 251 posted by: mike date: 2002-08-16 time: 07:06:00 reply x
I think everyone now accepts that the Peak guide is a legacy. I seem to remember even Rockfax hinting that v's would be adopted in the next guide, although I thought they should have started the ball rolling in their Burbage mini-guide, but then I can see their point about that being confusing if it was used in conjunction with the standard guide. Wonder what system Northumberland will adopt, or will they stick with b's as well? It would be quite interesting to start the ball rolling on a consensus for Peak V grades...I might start a page off where people can have their say on a list of popular/benchmark problems. Let me know when the site for the NW guide is ready to roll, and we'll link you from here. Are you giving out review copies? (Shameless ukb scrounge!) Don't worry though, I'm quite happy to pay up. Lots of trips to Wales coming up methinks.
postId: 252 posted by: dave date: 2002-08-16 time: 07:56:44 reply x
In reply to post 251: Be carefull not to confuse Northumberland "B" grades with peak "B" grades. They are 2 totally different systems. For example poverty font7b+ gets B6 in northumberland guide.
postId: 253 posted by: mike date: 2002-08-16 time: 08:02:40 reply x
In reply to post 252: yeah, I know - any peak people heading up that way are in for a big shock! don't know whether it was a deliberate ploy by the Northumberland guidebook writers or whether they just invented their own system from scratch.
postId: 257 posted by: dave date: 2002-08-16 time: 08:14:11 reply x
In reply to post 253: their systems seems about as good as their guidebook, if you know what i mean!!
postId: 259 posted by: mike date: 2002-08-16 time: 08:27:10 reply x
In reply to post 257: Yeah, it's really uninspiring isn't it? The photo reproduction quality is terrible too. Rumour was that they just produced it to stop Rockfax doing one, although the market's still there I reckon. If RF produced one as good as their Yorkshire one then there'd be no contest. Fair enough locals wanting to protect their own areas and all that, but it just doesn't make you want to go there at all. Plus the fact that they almost boast that they've left lots of areas out - Locals crags for LOCAL people, etc. Fair do's but why tell everyone about it? If they'd have done a more inspiring job, maybe it would stop people all just flocking to Bowden, which I believe is getting a bit trashed in places now.
postId: 261 posted by: dave date: 2002-08-16 time: 08:38:00 reply x
In reply to post 259: seems to me that guide actually excaberated the problems of over-wear instead of solving them. For example, take bowden. They wanted everyone to try other problems instead of trashing vienna, y-front etc. But the diagrams and descriptions were that bad that you were stuck with only doing problems you recognise from magazines/photos, i.e. vienna, y-front etc etc.
postId: 272 posted by: mike date: 2002-08-16 time: 12:07:19 reply x
In reply to post 261: yeah, you could well be right there - needs a new guide I reckon. Must get up there more often - not been for ages.
postId: 273 posted by: guest date: 2002-08-16 time: 15:33:58 reply x
In reply to post 272: Apologies for back tracking a bit here, but why argue about needing a grading system that applies to everywhere? I've climbed in most of the major areas in UK and in font aswell and personally I don't think you can get a universal system. The styles of climbing in different areas can be wildly different (even within the same rock type, i.e. compare the grit in peak to yorkshire). Surely half the fun of going to new places is dealing with the complexities that the area has to offer in terms of both the technical aspect and the grading aspect! Don't get me wrong, i love the ego boost of ticking big numbers (all things being relative), but everyone would be lacking in a fair bit of conversation if the grades were universal. You wouldn't be able to whinge and complain about how you thought you were doing great in the peak by getting a B9 only to have your ego put back into place by getting your arse kicked by a V3 in Yorkshire (and yes that is from personal experience!). Basically all i'm saying is that i enjoy having to juggle the different systems, it makes it more interesting! And lets face it, everyone knows what they are capable of doing when push comes to shove!!!! Cheers Richard
postId: 275 posted by: mike date: 2002-08-16 time: 17:34:35 reply x
In reply to post 273: Richard, I can sort of see your point, but I find the disparity in grades a major pain in the arse!! I hate having to convert between the different systems. Also, for the purposes of this site, one grading system is much more useful for all sorts of reasons, eg searching a database for all problems of a certain grade, etc. And oh yes, I know all about how hard some yorkshire V3's are ! Is Peak grit that different to Yorks grit?
postId: 276 posted by: guest date: 2002-08-16 time: 20:50:50 reply x
In reply to post 225: V8+ is a ludicrous idea. Either you have a '+' for every grade, or for non of them - surely this is obvious and sensible? And if you've decided to use V grades rather than Font grades, why do you care what Font 7b+ correlates to? On top of that, think about all the boulderers throughout the world that are quite happy with the standard V system - they don't seem to think that V8+ is necessary, so why do we need it? Is there something unique about British rock that creates problems of exactly that grade here, but nowhere else in the world? That's one of the advantages of the V system - it's international. As for the V8 grade being too wide, half the time I can't tell the difference between V8 and V6, never mind V8 and V8+ - eg compare Demon Wall Roof (which Simon suggests is V6) to Sloping Beauty (which I've heard is benchmark V8) - Demon Wall Roof is miles harder!
postId: 277 posted by: guest date: 2002-08-16 time: 22:54:54 reply x
In reply to post 276:
http://www.cragx.com/articles/issue11/parisellas/grades.htm dunno, makes sense but I know what you mean. There's already a V0- / V0+ don't forget.
postId: 278 posted by: guest date: 2002-08-16 time: 23:01:09 reply x
In reply to post 277: ...and like it or not, it may be here to stay, as Rockfax look like they're adopting it too:
http://www.rockfax.com/information/bgrades.html Be interesting to hear the opinions of any Americans who've done a lot of bouldering worldwide. jase
postId: 279 posted by: guest date: 2002-08-16 time: 23:06:51 reply x
In reply to post 278: ..and this us page makes interesting reading:
http://216.239.39.100/search? q=cache:9ziVBQx2jAMC:www.riadventuresource.com/riticklist.html+%22v8%2B% 22bouldering&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 No V8+, but a V8/V9 instead.
postId: 280 posted by: guest date: 2002-08-16 time: 23:09:39 reply x
In reply to post 279: and on a few other us sites as well - are the US adopting this grade? Jase
postId: 285 posted by: dave date: 2002-08-19 time: 11:05:40 reply x
In reply to post 276: Clearly some of us want the direct comparison to font/Vs thus: 7a = V6 7a+ = V7 7b = V8 7b+ = V8+ 7c = V9 7c+ = V10 8a = V11 For me this is just evidencing the fact the we should be using the Font grade. Cos this looks like we are still thinking is font grades, but want to call them Vs cos it is fashionable. If we weren't thinking in Font grades we wouldn't need V8+ cos it wouldn't matter where 7b+ fell. On a side note, was reading the Pete's new route book on sunday and someone had written up a problem and graded it with a Font grade. Some snide heckler had then written next to it something like: "Font grades? we are in Britain you know". I felt like writing "we're not in Hueco either".
postId: 286 posted by: mike date: 2002-08-19 time: 14:03:40 reply x
In reply to post 285: It's just a matter of preference I suppose - I like V's. Interesting that there's a US site that's using V8/V9. It'd be good to get some non-uk opinions on this. Do they think that the V8/V9 grade is bloated too? If V8 covers both 7b and 7b+ then it kind of points to a bloated grade, irrespective of the matching up of the systems. It doesn't really matter anyway - now ukb has started on the V's, it'd be a right pain to change it so I'll stick with V's for now.
postId: 288 posted by: guest date: 2002-08-19 time: 14:32:17 reply x
In reply to post 275: I've been climbing on peak grit for about 7 yrs since i moved to sheffield and i've kinda got used to climbing on the peak grit in terms of its style(whatever that is)and in comparison with the small amount of york grit that i've been on (i.e. Earl crag, Almscliff and Caley) the york grit feels a lot more strenuous for the approx comparable grades (i might just have been having bad days!). Can't really give you a specific reason why, but to me there is a definite difference. I think its these differences and being able to cope with them that will have a hugely beneficial effect on peoples climbing more so than religiously following a dead end training schedule..... after all variety is the spice of life. And on a slightly more important note, the peak bouldering is so sparse in terms of decent probs compared with the peak and yorkshire which are littered with them Cheers Richard
postId: 289 posted by: dave date: 2002-08-19 time: 14:49:40 reply x
In reply to post 288: That last sentence doesn't make any sense.
postId: 290 posted by: mike date: 2002-08-19 time: 14:53:06 reply x
In reply to post 288: I was tring to work that last sentence out myself! Isn't it just differences between crags? The grit at the Bridstones is different to Earl which is different again to Almscliffe. I find the Peak grit more familiar but that's just coz I spend much more time there, so if I'm off to the Plantation for example I know what to expect. Depends how you're comparing grades too, Yorkshire grades don't have the flattering grades of some of the Peak problems.
postId: 293 posted by: guest date: 2002-08-20 time: 10:17:42 reply x
In reply to post 290:Sorry, i meant wales and yorks compared to peak!!!! I suppose it might have something to do with how familiar you are with the crag, but to me there is very little difference in the style of climbing throughout the wholepeak, whereas yorks has more variety! Maybe i've just spent too much time in the peak (certainly feels like it!)
postId: 294 posted by: mike date: 2002-08-20 time: 11:36:19 reply x
In reply to post 293: Yeah, Wales is very different. I've not done much over there, but even noticed the difference in rock types between say, the Cromlech Boulders and Utopia (ok, that's only a slight difference), etc. Peak rock can be quite different too, eg Clifftop Boulder & Plantation. I definitely think you get used to crags and certain types of rock. I went to Bathford (limestone) recently and found it a nightmare after climbing on grit for so long, even though I grew up on the same sort of limestone. If I went there a lot no doubt it would become 2nd nature.
postId: 298 posted by: dave date: 2002-08-20 time: 11:49:02 reply x
In reply to post 293: "there is very little difference in the style of climbing throughout the wholepeak" Thats just untrue!! you must not have gone to many different crags, or I can't imagine how you could think this.
postId: 301 posted by: jim date: 2002-08-20 time: 12:04:41 reply x
In reply to post 298: I totally agree, take the difference between, say Burbage North and Higgar East for example. And then compare that to Minus Ten and Raven Tor. How anyone can say that all that represents a lack of variety is beyond me.
postId: 307 posted by: mike date: 2002-08-20 time: 14:20:15 reply x
In reply to post 301: Not to mention the Churnet Valley and places like that - talking of which, might head down there again some time. Only been the once but it certainly made a pleasant change from the rest of the Peak.
postId: 321 posted by: guest date: 2002-08-20 time: 15:14:15 reply x
In reply to post 301:I was comparing peak and yorks grit and last time i checked minus ten and Raven tor are definitely not Grit! As a matter of fact i've been near enough all the 'bouldering venues' in the peak. Maybe i'm just not explaining what i mean very well!. Dosen't matter, i'll save myself the effort!!!!
postId: 323 posted by: mike date: 2002-08-20 time: 16:24:02 reply x
In reply to post 321: Thought they were a bit slippy ;-) Yeah, getting a bit sidetracked, but there is a fair bit of variation in styles between the peak grit crags....but granted, not as much as the difference between say Earl & Almscliffe.
