[Alan James, Rockfax]

Share the love people

What a refreshing post. Thanks for your positive comments.

[JR]

Regarding the reproduction: either your eye sight is phenomenal or you really do have a faulty copy. I can find no evidence of this pixelation that you are taking about.

Alan

I've noticed a small amount in the Lakes guide, but nothing compared to (slightly off topic) the reproduction in the dorset guide, it is very noticeable in there.  Might just be my copy but for your reference P9, 10 and 11 are particularly bad.

[Alan James, Rockfax]

I've noticed a small amount in the Lakes guide, but nothing compared to (slightly off topic) the reproduction in the dorset guide, it is very noticeable in there.  Might just be my copy but for your reference P9, 10 and 11 are particularly bad.

Once again, my copy appears to be fine. It is a bit worrying if there are differences showing up between copies.

Alan

[Sam]

My edition of the 2005 Dorset guide has some very pixelated prints, especially the small image of Emma Madiera teasing us in her scantily-clad ascent of Ixtan

[Bubba]

Bouldering is supposed to be about freedom and personal achievement. I think it is a shame that capitalism has to come into it.

You bought a guide so are part of that capitalism. If all your worried about is freedom and personal achievement, then maybe you don't need grades, guides, etc? Not having a go, just pointing out that it's hard to escape capitalism in most parts of our lives.

[tc]

Like this, perhaps?

"Imagine a climbing world without any documentation, or need for it... it wouldn't look much different: the high peaks would still look untrodden, the rock faces immutable and unknown, the boulders just attractive lumps of swirling geology. We would come across signs of climbing only on close up: chalk marks, rusted pegs, bolts, rotting slings and wonder what sort of experiences they had found, what successes, what failures: the act of having to imagine your way forwards is always preferable than following an arbitrary trail laid down on paper. You can get too divorced from it by proxy, which is why it is important to simply go exploring on your own: bouldering, soloing, walking: and not take any maps, or topos, or blog cut-outs... just finding your way on a good day over some fine rock is enough."
John Watson, Stone Country

[Bubba]

Good quote.

[SA Chris]

Good quote.

Yup, but ironically from a guidebook.

[Bubba]

It's from this blog innit?

http://www.stonecountry.blogspot.com/

[JR]

My edition of the 2005 Dorset guide has some very pixelated prints, especially the small image of Emma Madiera teasing us in her scantily-clad ascent of Ixtan

yeah same in mine, thats page 10

[DScuffle]

You bought a guide so are part of that capitalism. If all your worried about is freedom and personal achievement, then maybe you don't need grades, guides, etc? Not having a go, just pointing out that it's hard to escape capitalism in most parts of our lives.

To true, it is impossible to escape, and I for one think that's ashame. Oh well better stop complaining and carry on pushing the pedals of the capitalist machine

[SA Chris]

It's from this blog innit?

http://www.stonecountry.blogspot.com/

I think it's somewhere in the guide too, will need to check.

[andyh]

I noticed these ullswater boulders mentioned in the guide - http://www.rockfax.com/databases/results_buttress.html?id=1373

can anyone tell me where they are / how to get there?

cheers

[tc]

Below Raven Crag, Threshthwaite Cove

[andyh]

nice one, cheers

[tc]

...Threshthwaite Cove

Try saying that late on a Saturday night 

[Greg C]

Area 8a - The Rolling Rock - Threshthwaite Cove
This large impressive block is around 16 feet high and located at the Southern end of Patterdale below the foreboding Raven Crag Threshthwaite Cove. There are currently eight problems with the prospect of a hard sitter to the classic arête and a thin traverse across the main face, there is also a few less impressive problems still to do on the other boulders in the area.

Topo...
http://www.lakesbloc.co.uk/25.html

Jungle Hobo LH...

[Bonjoy]

 I remember someone (Nigella?) telling me about this boulder with a weird sticky out square and triangle. I guess that must be it.

[andyh]

already found the topo 

will be heading there this weekend to enjoy the sunshine, hopefully get jungle hobo, and in all likelihood doing a few of these  - "there is also a few less impressive problems still to do on the other boulders in the area"

[Monolith]

Alan, would it not be possible for you to help them with creating the ad? after all someone has to make it.

I must admit that I was a bit snooty about adverts in our guide, commercial necessity meant we needed some, but we did exactly that, creating some (not all) of the ads for the guide to try and keep some creative control.

I inadvertantly received a copy of this off my girlfriends parents for my birthday. She thought she had heard me mention that I wanted to pick this up some time, when it was actually the latest peak bouldering guide. That's by the by.

I've had a good look through it anyway. To refer to the above quote, I cannot believe that you are willing to receive advertisements so close to your printing deadlines. To me, this is tantamount to commercial suicide! It seems as though you have a lot of different visual authors all working at differing resolutions. And then, the printers have decided upon a resolution that they would like to impose upon the guide. The classic maxim, you can make good artwork shit, but you can't make shit artwork good is certainly pertinent here.

The action shots have been done to death in the thread. There's nothing remotely inspiring.

I can't recall anyone commenting on the cover of the guide, but it is possibly the worst piece of design I have ever seen. There's about 4 different typefaces/weights all vying for your attention, and some horrendous drop shadow bollocks going on with the word 'bouldering'.
I'd say this is on a level par with your mid nineties Peak Bouldering Comic Sans faux pas. There's even a whole movement in the typographic world devoted to it's abolition!

http://bancomicsans.com/


As commented upon earlier in the thread, a guide should capture the essence of an area. It's an absolutely monumental effort that goes into making a guide I'm sure you'll tell me. So why not use this time properly? Why come on here and ask for constructive criticism, when that's what you should have been doing in the formative stages of the guide, not post-print! And why not heed the words of the user's on here, instead of merely saying "well blah de blah on site x liked it". There are a lot of people here telling you otherwise. And it's not because you are some "corporate whore" or other sorely misguided cliched term, it is because you have categorically failed in your attempts, and you cannot openly admit that there are bad things lurking in that guide.

I'll be sending my copy back this time round I'm sad to say. Please consult a decent graphic designer next time round, and ask for your criticism at a viable point in time whereby you can actually do something about it.

[BenF]

Jeez Tom, did you have a late night last night? 

Top deconstruction of the guide though, especially pertinent since you work in the field of design.  Not that I have actually looked hard at a copy yet.  I used Mick's copy last weekend up at Carrock Fell and it seemed to do the job, but I only looked at one page in order to find one particular boulder.  In that aspect it worked.  I guess it's telling that I only know one person (two now that you have a copy) with the guide.  Everyone else is still using annotated and tatty printed sheets off Lakesbloc.

[Monolith]

Sadly no late night Ben. Just a mean-ass curry and a moderate tipple, was rather nice! Recent sleep deprivation and a trashed middle finger may account slightly though.

I think I'm just incensed as I realise what a wasted opportunity this was. The photos of the individual problems were great, no problems. The quality was good and the line clearly defined. Sorry to keep going back to this, but it really is the guide's inability to portray the essence of Lakes bouldering. Perhaps some may find this easily forgiveable if it was a guide documenting a small, less frequented area, but it's the English Lake District, our pride and joy! Our bouldering pride and joy!

If you consider another individual or group of individuals who might like to produce their own version. You sit down, and you say to yourself, 'is it commercially viable for me/us to produce a lakes bouldering guide, bearing in mind that Rockfax have just released one x number of months ago? And do enough people have issue with the existing guide, to forfeit it and buy mine/ours?'

The answer I imagine, would be no. I might be wrong, it would be risky business though I would think. So it's this fact that we'll all have to sit around until the day when someone says, 'there's been enough development and the time period has been substantial enough to warrant a new guide'. And who's to say that won't be Rockfax again, and they will have ignored all of our attempted constructive criticism?

Just to reiterate, I have no beef with the Rockfax fellows, of course their intentions are good. If you cast your mind back through time, you'll easily be able to regail yourself with the memories of books and guidebooks that inspired you to climb in the first place. And they weren't botched jobs. They featured stunning photography as well as inspiring prose from some of the era's prominent (and less prominent) figures. See Hard Rock and co. See the historical notes sections in the F&RCC Lakes guides.
It's this missed opportunity that saddens me.

[Fiend]

Everyone else is still using annotated and tatty printed sheets off Lakesbloc.

And waiting for the local guide....

[Alan James, Rockfax]

Thanks for your feedback Monolith. I am not sure where you got this idea that we don't take criticism on board an act upon it. I think we have been doing that for years and are continuing to do so. There is plenty of feedback coming in via this web site and we have learnt a lot of lessons about how we should go about producing bouldering guides in the future.

I was puzzled by your opening comment about accepting advertising at the last minute. Firstly, in the world of guidebook publishing any alternative is impractical. We don't have advertising managers, nor do we have time to liaise and create the ads for people. The prices we charge, and the amounts the book makes, mean that it just isn't a viable proposition. If it is "commercial suicide" then we committed it on our first book in 1990 and have been doing it ever since. Secondly, the section you quote was not said by me, but said by Rupert.

Your design comments are almost certainly well merited since you come from a design background - I don't, and there isn't enough money in guidebooks to pay for a designer. If you wish to offer your services for free then I'd be happy to take on your advice, however I can understand fully if you don't want to do this. In the meantime we will just push on using whatever I can come up with. It may not set the visual design world alight, but I think you would have to admit that we have made some impact on useability. You may also have noticed that we have moved our design on with the latest series of books.

You also made some comments about the viability of guidebooks. Now I admit you probably know more about visual design than me, however I can assure you that I know a lot more about the economics and production of guidebooks than you. The scenario you paint isn't very realistic and there is nothing stopping anyone from producing a new book now and making a go of it. The main factor that dictates how well a guidebook sells, once you have scaled your print run to reflect the popularity of the area, is whether or not it is a good guidebook. The existence of other guidebooks has relatively little impact on sales.

As I said at the beginning, thanks for your comments and keep the feedback coming.

Alan

[Monolith]

Alan,

Thanks for your response to an issue that matters greatly to me.

I am not sure where you got this idea that we don't take criticism on board an act upon it.

My sentiment was referring to the act of criticism, i.e. doing it before you go to print. Understandably, budget constraints do not allow you to disseminate high volumes of copies for critical purposes, but a more profitable use of your funds would be perhaps to recruit a number of design-orientated individuals for this purpose, rather than sending them off to be reviewed by non-designers. And these days it need not even come down to exchanging any money at all. Briefly, the current crisis within the design world is a simple lack of work. That's why I'm sitting here trying to diversify my trade with other means, over one year on from completion of my degree. Given this crisis, there are countless skilled graphic designers and typographers who would be happy to assist you in many different ways with the production of a new guide. I can name countless extremely skilled 'designers' (quoted because they can't get a job) who would prize the opportunity to work on a nationally released guidebook. It's all about the unpaid work placements I'm afraid. And JSA staff certainly frown on any minute of your time devoted to trying to better yourself for a job. For free.

With respect, I wouldn't feel comfortable producing something that was going to cost money without seeking advice pre-general issue print.

Likewise, the photographic industry is I'm sure, in a similar state to the graphic design industry. So perhaps you could lodge posts on UKC and UKB for calls for talented individuals? It's become perfectly acceptable to recruit for unpaid placements, and bearing in mind that both you, and the 'talent' reap the respective rewards, I wouldn't hesitate about doing this. DO however, let the individual know of the time constraints that you are working to, and that if they are not comfortable with self-funding (maybe you could just offer expenses), then don't bother applying.

I apologise if my comments have come across unfavourably. They really aren't intended to be, and I hope in some way they may assist you in future guidebook productions. If you would like to speak to me on any matters to do with this, please feel free to drop me a PM and I will give you as much or as little information as you desire.

Regards.