[Paul B]

Alan, would it not be possible for you to help them with creating the ad? after all someone has to make it.

[Ru]

Alan, would it not be possible for you to help them with creating the ad? after all someone has to make it.

I must admit that I was a bit snooty about adverts in our guide, commercial necessity meant we needed some, but we did exactly that, creating some (not all) of the ads for the guide to try and keep some creative control.

[Paul B]

off the top of my head i can only remember the vision advert on the back so the rest must blend in pretty well, was it any hassle doing it this way?

[Alan James, Rockfax]

Alan, would it not be possible for you to help them with creating the ad? after all someone has to make it.

In actual fact, we have done that much more since Northern Limestone.

[Johnny Brown]

I must admit that I was a bit snooty about adverts in our guide, commercial necessity meant we needed some, but we did exactly that, creating some (not all) of the ads for the guide to try and keep some creative control.

You were writing the guide in a well-established commercial design house though. ie potential advertisers would have a level of confidence in VG they simply couldn't have in rockfax.

[MattH]

Thought I might add a comment here in defence of the new guide. It seems that people are forgetting what the main purpose of a guidebook is: to provide accurate and easily understood information on the climbing / bouldering in a given area. I've looked through the guide and the topos, maps and problem descriptions are, as one would expect from Rockfax, very clear and easily understood. Compare this to blocnotes, a bouldering guide to various Swiss and Italian bouldering venues which I bought on a recent trip to Val Di Mello. It cost me 25 Euros (which included a shit VHS video) and was virtually useless when it came to finding problems. It had some lovely photos though. ;-).

Note that I have deliberately not commented on the accuracy of the guide as I do not know the area well enough.

Granted it would be nice to get everything right, but let's not get too carried away with dissing something for the sake of it. And fair play to Mick and Alan for attempting to discuss the feedback on here - there are plenty of people in the climbing world who simply won't come near these forums.

MattH

[Bubba]

I don't think people are "dissing something for the sake of it".

The points raised on here seem to be quite valid imho. People are mainly complaining about the photo quality and a lack of in-depth knowledge of the areas bouldering.

there are plenty of people in the climbing world who simply won't come near these forums

I'm sure that's the case, but for somebody who's producing a guide to ignore active climbing websites would just be foolish, would it not?

[Alan James, Rockfax]

I'm sure that's the case, but for somebody who's producing a guide to ignore active climbing websites would just be foolish, would it not?

Which is why I posted a question on this forum request people's opinions of some bouldering routes at Birchen. Sadly, no-one seems to be forthcoming with an answer at present despite the fact that at least one person has admitted that they have an opinion on the grades.

Alan

[account_inactive]

I'm sure that's the case, but for somebody who's producing a guide to ignore active climbing websites would just be foolish, would it not?

Which is why I posted a question on this forum request people's opinions of some bouldering routes at Birchen. Sadly, no-one seems to be forthcoming with an answer at present despite the fact that at least one person has admitted that they have an opinion on the grades.

Alan

Is this to prove some political point Alan?  Or do you really not know what these problems and grades are?  How do you normally find out about this sort of info?Be careful as you should know by now not to trust everything you ready on the internet

[Bonjoy]

Which is why I posted a question on this forum request people's opinions of some bouldering routes at Birchen. Sadly, no-one seems to be forthcoming with an answer at present despite the fact that at least one person has admitted that they have an opinion on the grades.

Alan

I PM'd you a link to a past topic covering the subject, did this not answer your query?

[tc]

One possibility you may not have considered is to actually go and do the problems, like guidebook authors tend to do.

[Alan James, Rockfax]

Thanks for that. I will check that thread. I missed the Message option. Am I supposed to get an email when that is used?

Alan

[Bubba]

You can select to have that happen in your profile.

Go to your profile, then to "personal message options", and then select "always" in the drop down next to "Notify by email every time you receive a personal message"

[Alan James, Rockfax]

One possibility you may not have considered is to actually go and do the problems, like guidebook authors tend to do.

Read the other thread and you will see that I have made some effort on these problems but I wouldn't be stupid enough to rely exclusively on my opinion, especially since most of them are too hard for me. So I ask people. Even if I can do them, I ask people, that way a consensus is built up.

The truth about guidebook writers who claim to have climbed every route in the book they are writing is; a) they are almost certainly lying; b) the book will have rubbish grades.

[Johnny Brown]

I'm not sure that anyone has ever claimed to do every route in a guide, except maybe Paul William's Snowdonia one, and if they did, why would it make the grades rubbish? Paul's certainly weren't.

Pete Robbins' approach to Curbar and Gogarth has been similar. I don't expect his grades to be rubbish.

[Alan James, Rockfax]

I'm not sure that anyone has ever claimed to do every route in a guide, except maybe Paul William's Snowdonia one, and if they did, why would it make the grades rubbish? Paul's certainly weren't.

I actually meant guidebook authors who claim it as justification for their grades being correct.

The point is that grades should be reached by consensus not based on a single, or even few, opinions. Paul Williams didn't grade his routes based on his own opinion, he asked others. The more people you ask, the better the grades will be.

What have you got against me asking for Birchen Bouldering grades on this forum?

[Johnny Brown]

I think this is a non-argument - no one has ever done every route in their book nor would it be possible for them to grade everything entirely without reference to other's opinions.

However I don't understand why you think someone who has nearly done all the routes will be 'rubbish' at grading them?

I have nothing against you asking for grades here. Rockfax have a confrontational reputation on this forum, admittedly this is more from Mick than yourself.

[Alan James, Rockfax]

However I don't understand why you think someone who has nearly done all the routes will be 'rubbish' at grading them?

It is a bit of a non-argument. I should probably have qualified my original statement more first.

Perhaps more clearly stated it would say, anyone who claims to have climbed every route on a crag in a guidebook, and uses their own experience as the only method to gauge the grades, will produce a guidebook with rubbish grades.

Whilst that seems far-fetched, it isn't that far from the small bunch of selected individuals who used to gather round to decide on the grades of many of the guidebooks from before the 90s. Because of this there have been some incredibly anomalies creeping in for the lower grade routes (I am sure OffWidth would have soemthing to say about this) in the BMC series of the 70s, 80s and 90s, that our online voting is now discovering. Basically you ahd the situation where a bunch of E1 to E6 leaders were sat around chosing grades for VDiffs - that doesn't work and no matter how many times they go out and climb them, they still won't know any better.

Alan

[Mick Ryan]

Rockfax have a confrontational reputation on this forum, admittedly this is more from Mick than yourself.

Growl.

Sounds like I'm still paying for taking the piss and comparing ukb to the nihilist ghetto of boldering.com. Yip that didn't go down to well.

Word!

M

[Greg C]

Basically you ahd the situation where a bunch of E1 to E6 leaders were sat around chosing grades for VDiffs - that doesn't work and no matter how many times they go out and climb them, they still won't know any better

  Fair point.

[tc]

Indeed. However, in the case of the Lakes Rockfax, it might have been a good idea to have had a bunch of V6 to V11 boulderers who had actually done the problems sitting round choosing grades for the V6 to V11 boulder problems described. 

[Steve Crowe]

Personally I was very unimpressed with the guide but as I have rarely bouldered in the Lakes I sought the opinion of boulderers I knew that do. I couldn't find anyone with anything positive to say although I have since.

Anyway I changed the text at the request of one of my sources and not because Rockfax were unhappy with what I wrote.

I do usually try to run my news by quoting facts rather than comment and opinion.




 

[DScuffle]

I personally don't think the occasional grade cock up is a problem. You'll never get it right anyway as everyone is different. If a problem is V6 and listed as V3 then I might try it, and I might just get up it. If I can't do a V3 then it is "obviously graded wrong", so it makes me feel better. People always make mistakes, hell I can't get out of the house in the morning, without forgetting something, and I practice this every day. I would rather a new guide book was released with errors, than we had to wait for 2 years while everyone argues the toss over whether something is V6 or V7.

I think whoever writes a guidebook should be commended. I have used every guide book I have bought and found everyone really helpfull, warts and all. Bouldering is supposed to be about freedom and personal achievement. I think it is a shame that capitalism has to come into it.

So well done Rockfax, well done Ru, well done the BMC and well done Jingo Wobbly you are all doing a really good job. And as for the rest of us, we should help as much as possible, because although this is commercial, it also adds to our and our fellow boulderers enjoyment.

Share the love people

[BenF]

I think whoever writes a guidebook should be commended. I have used every guide book I have bought and found everyone really helpfull, warts and all. Bouldering is supposed to be about freedom and personal achievement. I think it is a shame that capitalism has to come into it.

So well done Rockfax, well done Ru, well done the BMC and well done Jingo Wobbly you are all doing a really good job. And as for the rest of us, we should help as much as possible, because although this is commercial, it also adds to our and our fellow boulderers enjoyment.

I've deliberately avoided joining the various threads debating this new guide, partly because I've only briefly looked at the new guide and partly because it was all getting a bit embarrassingly vitriolic and petty.  These comments from DScuffle however, are salient and probably pretty much what most people feel. 

Yes, I agree that anyone producing a guidebook should aim to do the best job they can and it's worth giving feedback so that guides do improve and reach the standards set by people like Ru and Simon (and RockFax in many cases previously), but let's not forget that after all it's about giving information to people so they can do the important bit...  the climbing. 

If you're really that wound up about the RF guide, buy the Ground Up one when it comes out.  I will be and I'm sure that it will sell really well (thus giving credit where it's due to Ground Up and the authors involved in that project).

[SA Chris]

So well done Rockfax, well done Ru, well done the BMC and well done Jingo Wobbly you are all doing a really good job. And as for the rest of us, we should help as much as possible, because although this is commercial, it also adds to our and our fellow boulderers enjoyment.

Share the love people

Don't forget; A big up for Ground Up and one for the Crowe.

And Climber's Club, and ...........