[luckyjez]

Having ventured onto trad Peak lime recently, i was reminded of the appaling state of the vast majority of fixed threads, both as runners and belays, in partic. on Chee Tor and at Beeston Tor. It's no wonder that the crags are less popular than they used to be!
As responsible (and long-standing in some cases) members of the climbing 'community' we should encourage anyone climbing on trad limestone to take at least spare tat, a knife and a lighter with them. This would prevent endless repition of the phrase "someone should replace that tat - it's knackered'. To date, i have replaced about half of the threads on Majolica and intend to go back and re-do the top pitch of the Beest. If we all did a bit, it would make a big difference.

[old cheese]

echo that, clambering on ravens tor (the less steep one) on sat was terrifying, loose rock everywhere and threads that had been tied in 1982.

must remember to take spare tat out with me next time.

[Bonjoy]

 Good call. There was talk on UKC a few months back of a tidy up day at Chee Tor, i don't know if anything came of it in the end.
 Reminds me I need to go back and take the rust old bolts out of Thormens and replace the big ugly chain on the lip with a more discrete twin bolt anchor.

[Fiend]

Good call, I'll try to remember to do that if I'm on a tat-crucial route. And thanks for doing the stuff on Majolica, I hope to do that sometime this summer.

Are there some cases where a permanent wire thread would be justified, rather than having to replace tat every X years?

[Paz]

As usual I have two contradictory points to make, based mostly on very recent anecdotes at the crag, without thinking of everythig else from my climbing career.  And on the second one I am going to ignore all criticism because it's part of my `happy thoughts' lead head.

1)  I don't like tat.  It looks a fucking mess.  It all stems back to people cleaning routes from the top down and putting thread's in as we go to create the route.  I appreciate we owe them some debt and it makes some really good routes but we've got better standards now and all routes have evolved - do we really need even more of it?  If you have to back off or put your own in while you're there then fair enough but I don't like feeling like I'm following some bastard's trail of litter.  If I want that I'll go sport climbing :D. 

2)  It's fine.  It looks slimely and horrible on the outside but the core strength is relatively unaffected compared to the sheath.  Even if it's crap, if you think about the failure mode, then what's it going to do - snap.  It'll first tighten at the knot, absorbing the fall, and then if it's going to go it will either cut or fail at the knot.  If the rock thread (some of them are well thin) doesn't fail first.  Maybe cord's better than tape then, in this respect.  And you've clipped your thin bouncy ropes in to it.  And you clipped an awful lot of it. 

Whilst relying on them ???, I feel broadly the same about pegs.  As an insight into the `mind of the numpty', people were giving me the shit that you have to make sure pegs are good as `beginners automatically trust them'.  Even when fixed gear's right by other good natural kit.  If the fixed gear wasn't there in the first place, people would climb or belay somewhere more sensible and find gear for themselves. 

[andy popp]

I agree, good call Jez. I'd heard that Chee Tor is in really bad nick but, though everyone slags Peak limestone, this is a really good crag, one of my favourites - it deserves rescuing from neglect. Its a vicious cycle - poor gear, fewer climbers, more plants, fewer climbers, worse gear. Paz is right though - tapes are not always a lasting solution. The way people like Gibson and Crocker put up many new routes in the past - any fixed gear as long as its not a bolt - created thousands of routes that are now unclimbed as the state of the fixed pro is so uncertain. Taken in isolation, Majolica (and Faience) would probably be better bolted - though this might not be appropriate in the context of Beeston Tor. So yes, if you're out replace tat - always as discretely and as lastingly as possible - but a debate is probably needed as well.

[SA Chris]

It's not only the Peak, Some threads in the South West are decidedly naff. I removed one thread runner in the Wye Valley that had been tied in place at a place where one could easily be placed and removed one handed, or a nut threaded back and clipped. Trouble is it is mentioned in the route description, which could cause confusion if it was not in place.

[Paul B]

After climbing at chee tor last summer i began to wonder what will become of it after the pegs deteriorate further, Darius seemed almost like a clip up.

Ill be spending an awful lot of my summer around peak limestone so if anyone is doing anything worthwile in terms of re-equipping (bonjoy?) then im more than happy to lend a hand.

[Fiend]

I'll clean off plants and shit off any route I have to get off by abbing/lowering (I often do that anyway)

[SA Chris]

As we discussed before Fiend, worth doing if you are seconding routes well within your ability too.